Dominic Salerno on Intentional Tech & Career Growth
Dominic Salerno, IT administrator at St. Bernard's School, discusses his journey into ed tech, highlighting the value of traditional teaching methods alongside technology. He shares insights on St. Bernard's philosophy of cautious tech adoption and how his involvement with the ATLIS Leadership Institute (ALI) and Technology Leaders in Independent Schools (TLIS) certification has shaped his professional growth and confidence in the field.
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Transcript
Peter Frank:
Nick welcome to Talking technology with Atlas,
Peter Frank:
the show that plugs you into the important topics and trends for
Peter Frank:
technology leaders all through a unique Independent School lens.
Peter Frank:
We'll hear stories from technology directors and other
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special guests from the Independent School community,
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and provide you with focused learning and deep dive topics.
Peter Frank:
Everyone this is talking technology with Atlas. My name
Peter Frank:
is Peter Frank. I'm the Senior Director of certification and
Peter Frank:
operations for Atlas.
Bill Stites:
And I am Bill Stites, the Director of
Bill Stites:
Technology at Montclair Kimberly Academy.
Hiram Cuevas:
And I'm Hiram Cuevas, Director of Information
Hiram Cuevas:
Systems and Academic Technology at St Christopher school in
Hiram Cuevas:
Richmond, Virginia. Welcome
Peter Frank:
guys. So we're on a short week. We had a holiday
Peter Frank:
this week, Memorial Day. I hope you all had a good time, and we
Peter Frank:
were talking about vacation spots. Curious, do you guys have
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a place you all like to go? Probably not for something like
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Memorial Day. But is there like a retreat, like a thing you like
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to do when it's like, Okay, I just need a break. I need to get
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away. Do you have any sort of off the radar place you like to
Peter Frank:
go to get a break? I
Bill Stites:
wouldn't say off the radar, but what I would say
Bill Stites:
is off the normal track of when you would go. I like going to
Bill Stites:
shore towns, beach towns off season, when there is no one
Bill Stites:
there, or a limited number of people there, maybe there's even
Bill Stites:
limited things open. I don't really even mind that. It's
Bill Stites:
like, you want to hit those places that all the people that
Bill Stites:
live there year round go, because, you know, those are the
Bill Stites:
places that know. They know what's going on. They're there
Bill Stites:
for everybody year round. They're not just there for the
Bill Stites:
peak season. So one of the places that my wife and I
Bill Stites:
actually went last fall, late fall, was up to Algonquin main
Bill Stites:
and I say that because ogunqua is hopping in season. But when
Bill Stites:
you get into those cooler fall months and you get up to Maine,
Bill Stites:
you're definitely not sticking your feet the water, that's for
Bill Stites:
sure, right? You walk around and you know, you notice not all the
Bill Stites:
hotels are open, not all the B and Bs are open, but there's
Bill Stites:
just something about being in a place like that, where it's a
Bill Stites:
little calmer, it's a little easier. I grew up down the
Bill Stites:
Jersey Shore in the summers, and my favorite month down the
Bill Stites:
Jersey Shore is late September, early October. If you could put
Bill Stites:
me down there at any point, that's when I'm going for
Hiram Cuevas:
me, it's anything that has to do with trails,
Hiram Cuevas:
whether it's in the mountains or in the desert, like last summer
Hiram Cuevas:
in Arizona, my wife and I love hiking. You put me out on
Hiram Cuevas:
trails. As a former cross country runner, I can go for
Hiram Cuevas:
miles and miles and miles, and I don't need to see anybody other
Hiram Cuevas:
than my bride. And it's just a great way to reconnect with
Hiram Cuevas:
what's important, look around and take in all of the nature
Hiram Cuevas:
and the wonder. That's a great way to clear the mind.
Hiram Cuevas:
Beautiful.
Peter Frank:
I love that part of the reason I ask is I don't have
Peter Frank:
a go to place like that, so I'm taking suggestions. There's
Peter Frank:
always
Hiram Cuevas:
the at here in Virginia. It goes all the way up
Hiram Cuevas:
from Georgia to Maine, so you can pick up a trail anywhere
Hiram Cuevas:
along the way,
Peter Frank:
right the Appalachian Trail. Which people
Peter Frank:
do? Have you ever done the whole thing?
Hiram Cuevas:
No, no, no, no, no, that's a major commitment.
Hiram Cuevas:
How long
Peter Frank:
typically, what would you prepare for to do the
Peter Frank:
whole thing? I don't think I could be working. I'd have to be
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retired, right? Most likely that challenges me, the no showers. I
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know there's stations along the way and all that kind of stuff,
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but it's not even the food or the exercise which also
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challenges me. But none of it, as much as the no showers would
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get to me,
Hiram Cuevas:
especially if it's in the summertime when it's
Hiram Cuevas:
exceptionally humid, right?
Peter Frank:
Well, our guest has been waiting patiently. We are
Peter Frank:
super happy to have him. He is the Information Technology
Peter Frank:
administrator at St Bernard school in New York City, and he
Peter Frank:
is Dominic Salerno, welcome, Dominic. How are you? Thank
Dominic Salerno:
you for having me here. It's been good.
Peter Frank:
Absolutely thanks for being here to just help us
Peter Frank:
get started. Dominic, we talk about how every technology
Peter Frank:
leader has their own origin story, and there are often
Peter Frank:
similar themes, but there's always unique aspects to you
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know how someone became a independent school technology
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leader, since there isn't really any sort of bachelor's degree or
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formal program to prepare you, so what's your story of how you
Peter Frank:
became a indie school technology leader?
Dominic Salerno:
I kind of fell into it. It wasn't like an
Dominic Salerno:
intentional move, sure. Maybe similar to you. Bill, like I was
Dominic Salerno:
an artist. I don't say I am an artist. I know some people
Dominic Salerno:
correct me when they're artists like, you never stop being I
Dominic Salerno:
feel like there was a time where it ended and I wasn't really
Dominic Salerno:
doing that well as an artist. And I was also working in
Dominic Salerno:
nonprofit, so Joe, I was doing technology for that organization
Dominic Salerno:
as a kind of like a side hustle. Yeah, and then as time went by,
Dominic Salerno:
I needed to kind of pick up my career game. I met my wife, got
Dominic Salerno:
married, and I'm like, I'm pretty sure she wants a husband
Dominic Salerno:
who could actually make a living. And one of the things
Dominic Salerno:
was I got into the Department of Education. They used to do
Dominic Salerno:
outsource and contract companies to do service at the schools,
Dominic Salerno:
and I was one of those guys for about less than a year, and I
Dominic Salerno:
had met someone during that time that was a director at an
Dominic Salerno:
independent school, and he offered me an opportunity for a
Dominic Salerno:
job. I took it, and I started working in independent schools,
Dominic Salerno:
and then I realized, man, I really love this gig. This is
Dominic Salerno:
something I want to keep doing. So I've been, pretty much since
Dominic Salerno:
2015 been working in independent schools, various different
Dominic Salerno:
schools, over the years, but currently st Bernards,
Peter Frank:
and it's st Bernard's. I said St Bernard
Peter Frank:
like the way we talk about the dog.
Dominic Salerno:
Yeah, they pronounced it the British way,
Dominic Salerno:
okay. But yet, we do have a mascot, and we call it the Saint
Dominic Salerno:
Bernard, yeah, figure that out. All right. And we also have an
Dominic Salerno:
alligator, but it's not the mascot on pictures or anything,
Dominic Salerno:
but there is an alligator and it's associated with the school.
Dominic Salerno:
Wow.
Peter Frank:
All right, that's a lot. I feel like if I let you
Peter Frank:
keep talking, it just get weirder and weirder. That's
Peter Frank:
fantastic.
Dominic Salerno:
We're an interesting community. It's fun.
Dominic Salerno:
I love them. Yeah, it sounds like it. It's
Hiram Cuevas:
Catholic school too, right? No. Oh,
Dominic Salerno:
so it's Anglican. It does have religious
Dominic Salerno:
roots in the name, but no, we're not a religious school at all.
Dominic Salerno:
I'm
Peter Frank:
curious with your artist background, and as much
Peter Frank:
as we talk about technology being so ones and zeros, have
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you ever had a moment in your role as a technology leader
Peter Frank:
where you thought, oh, kind of like art? Has there ever been a
Peter Frank:
moment where it's called back to that? I
Dominic Salerno:
kind of had an epiphany moment, maybe like a
Dominic Salerno:
few months back, I was talking with my director, and he was
Dominic Salerno:
saying, when he processes a problem, he always works from A
Dominic Salerno:
to B to C to D. And I told him, I do not think that way, and we
Dominic Salerno:
have like, a back and forth about it. I'm like, I go from A
Dominic Salerno:
to D to figure out how B got to C to D, right? Artists just
Dominic Salerno:
don't think linearly. They just, you're in a cloud, and you kind
Dominic Salerno:
of just bounce around till you get to where you need to be. You
Dominic Salerno:
know, Dominic,
Bill Stites:
one of the things that I think about is when I was
Bill Stites:
taking my art classes, couple of the areas where, again, it's
Bill Stites:
been 30 plus years, and ironically, I ran into my photo
Bill Stites:
teacher coming out of a hardware store in town from 31 years ago,
Bill Stites:
and we started chatting. It was hilarious. But the things that
Bill Stites:
were still resonate to me is like, from a tech perspective,
Bill Stites:
designing our portals, looking at how you do layout, how you
Bill Stites:
look at color choices, how you look at arranging the page. So I
Bill Stites:
mean, it's not the fine arts, it's not the painting, it's not
Bill Stites:
the drawing, which is what I'd like to focus on when I was
Bill Stites:
doing that kind of work. But I think definitely that artist's
Bill Stites:
eye, when you start looking at the way in which we present
Bill Stites:
different things, and even more so, and my team gives me grief
Bill Stites:
over when I'm trying to create the one pager for explaining
Bill Stites:
something. You know, it's never necessarily one page, but when
Bill Stites:
you're trying to simplify those things down and organize that
Bill Stites:
page so you don't have a page that scrolls forever, how do you
Bill Stites:
condense it? How do you lay it out? That's where it hits for me
Bill Stites:
when I think about that background.
Dominic Salerno:
Yeah, I've had my creative moments. There was
Dominic Salerno:
one year where they needed an associate art teacher to help
Dominic Salerno:
with the head of the class. And I did do that. So it was one
Dominic Salerno:
year in our teacher.
Peter Frank:
Oh, nice. That's fantastic.
Dominic Salerno:
That was a learning experience, because it
Dominic Salerno:
gave me some insight into the classroom structure that I
Dominic Salerno:
didn't really fully have from the outside as it and then I do
Dominic Salerno:
help with some of the classes for the technology side now,
Dominic Salerno:
like, I'll assist, but I'm not actually formally part of the
Dominic Salerno:
class.
Bill Stites:
As you said, it's the non linear thinking. Yeah,
Bill Stites:
absolutely,
Peter Frank:
there's often that serendipity, when you can
Peter Frank:
involve your interests into your job. I've been editing videos
Peter Frank:
from the conference, and my degree is in Film Video. I went
Peter Frank:
to film school, basically for college. So it's fun when I'm
Peter Frank:
doing something like that, it's one of those rare times and I'm
Peter Frank:
like, Oh, this was my major, and I'm actually using it for
Peter Frank:
something related to my work. And it's fun.
Dominic Salerno:
I do edit the podcast, and I'm also doing team
Dominic Salerno:
three from cohort 23 to 24
Hiram Cuevas:
nice. I would love to see Bill painting in a bob,
Hiram Cuevas:
Ross wig. First of all, I think that would be fabulous. We can
Hiram Cuevas:
make that happen. We can make that happen. We gotta love AI.
Hiram Cuevas:
My question, Dominic for you, is we talk about the technology
Hiram Cuevas:
roles, and it's interesting having two artists here.
Hiram Cuevas:
Actually, I'm gonna say three, because Peter in the film, in
Hiram Cuevas:
this. Three is also an artist? Can creativity be taught, or is
Hiram Cuevas:
it innate? I
Dominic Salerno:
was talking with a math teacher about that
Dominic Salerno:
yesterday. I was talking about grading. When you have art
Dominic Salerno:
classes, you know you have the metrics, A, B, C, D, or 100% 90,
Dominic Salerno:
but how much of it is, you either have it or you don't have
Dominic Salerno:
it. So you really are grading on how much effort and trying there
Dominic Salerno:
is. But some kids don't have it, just like not every kid's an
Dominic Salerno:
athlete, not every child is an artist. I
Peter Frank:
think it is innate. I think it can be brought out of
Peter Frank:
people, but I don't think you can bring it out of people if
Peter Frank:
it's not there. I
Bill Stites:
think it depends on what you're focused on, too,
Bill Stites:
because I think there is a process over product type thing.
Bill Stites:
I switched out of my major for a variety of reasons, but I never
Bill Stites:
thought I was like the best artist. But I definitely was
Bill Stites:
able to think about what that process did, how I was able to
Bill Stites:
explain that process, talk to that process. And I agree with
Bill Stites:
you, Peter. I think that some of it is definitely innate. If
Bill Stites:
you're focused on the product piece of it, when you're talking
Bill Stites:
about the fine arts, I think with technology now and how you
Bill Stites:
define those artistic endeavors, you can through exposure,
Bill Stites:
through immersing yourself in certain things, you can develop
Bill Stites:
that. It might not be that natural innate ability, just
Bill Stites:
like with athletics, but it can be developed. It can be
Bill Stites:
nurtured.
Dominic Salerno:
Yeah, I would agree with that. I was doing the
Dominic Salerno:
arts since I was in high school when I was doing it. That's
Dominic Salerno:
where it started. I had one high school teacher, oh, man, this is
Dominic Salerno:
embarrassing. It's kind of funny, though. So I wasn't the
Dominic Salerno:
best artist, and there was this one boy in our class. He was
Dominic Salerno:
great. And actually, when I was in college, he was there too,
Dominic Salerno:
phenomenal artists. This guy could sketch beautiful art. The
Dominic Salerno:
teacher was comparing me and him, not to the whole class, but
Dominic Salerno:
just me and him and a group of our friends. And he goes, you
Dominic Salerno:
know, Dominic, you're a good artist. You produce a lot of
Dominic Salerno:
quantity of work, but such and such over here, he produces
Dominic Salerno:
maybe a couple of things a year, but they're very high quality.
Dominic Salerno:
And from that day forward, I worked very hard to produce
Dominic Salerno:
quality work.
Peter Frank:
It's funny, those things that stick with us, those
Peter Frank:
points, goodness gracious, turning to technology. So
Peter Frank:
Dominic, one thing I've learned about st Bernard's, there's
Peter Frank:
pride in how much the school doesn't rely on technology for
Peter Frank:
its own sake. Can you explain to us more about that, how that
Peter Frank:
works? At your school,
Dominic Salerno:
we have like a pen to paper style. We embrace
Dominic Salerno:
blackboards and chalk, and while we do have white boards and
Dominic Salerno:
projection, it's those traditional values of education
Dominic Salerno:
that kind of come through the most, and it's what makes our
Dominic Salerno:
community unique. One of the things that I would say, and I
Dominic Salerno:
don't think this was by design, but on our school emblem, we
Dominic Salerno:
have per gay, sad, proceed with caution, and I think that
Dominic Salerno:
applies very much to how we approach technology. We always
Dominic Salerno:
look at what innovations are happening, but we cautiously
Dominic Salerno:
test it and see if it applies to what we do in our school. So 3d
Dominic Salerno:
printing. We have 3d printers in our computer lab, no science a
Dominic Salerno:
computer lab, not Innovation Lab, and we'll do 3d prints. But
Dominic Salerno:
we don't just print, just for the sake of printing. So we have
Dominic Salerno:
like, a 3d design class, and the boys will come up with their
Dominic Salerno:
sketchups and we print that out. But sometimes I've seen this in
Dominic Salerno:
other schools, they'll just print for the sake of printing
Dominic Salerno:
3d print, for the sake of having it, instead of embracing the
Dominic Salerno:
educational benefits of it. Bill, you might actually get
Dominic Salerno:
this so you probably did your art history. So Roman Greco
Dominic Salerno:
architecture, right? Columns. How many times have you seen?
Dominic Salerno:
Oh, we're trying to do STEM. They'll have the students print
Dominic Salerno:
out columns. The students just grab something off the internet.
Dominic Salerno:
They maybe they manipulate, or maybe they create something, but
Dominic Salerno:
they just print out the column. Okay, we did something great.
Dominic Salerno:
STEM, yay. But really, you would wanna go deeper than that,
Dominic Salerno:
right? Are you gonna, like, break down the different parts
Dominic Salerno:
of the column? Are you gonna print out the different parts
Dominic Salerno:
and build it together to show the process of design and the
Dominic Salerno:
architecture we have to look at technology like that? Are we
Dominic Salerno:
just using it for the sake of using it, or are we actually
Dominic Salerno:
trying to develop something deeper that broadens and
Dominic Salerno:
enriches the learning right in the classroom.
Bill Stites:
I think what you're describing is the fundamental
Bill Stites:
issue that we all deal with and we all ask. Number of years ago,
Bill Stites:
I visited Hiram school, and we looked at the stem and the maker
Bill Stites:
spaces that they had in each of those areas at those. Points,
Bill Stites:
and it was a matter of seeing how those things were actually
Bill Stites:
being used, and how they were put in place, and how they
Bill Stites:
connected to the learning because a lot of times I think
Bill Stites:
technology can be seen as the bright, shiny thing, and it can
Bill Stites:
be the thing that gets the admissions team walks around and
Bill Stites:
can point to, because you can see it tangibly. You can see it.
Bill Stites:
You can't put your finger on all the learning that happens in a
Bill Stites:
lot of the other areas. But if you've got a big, shiny room
Bill Stites:
that you can walk people through, you can really sell
Bill Stites:
that. And the one thing I always like to say is you need to be
Bill Stites:
able to walk the walk. If you're selling that, you better be able
Bill Stites:
to show how it's impacting teaching and learning, and I
Bill Stites:
would commend you for that, because I think that that's
Bill Stites:
often not the case in MKA history, I remember we had our
Bill Stites:
distance learning room that was at our high school. We had this
Bill Stites:
big satellite dish on the roof, and we had this room that was
Bill Stites:
decked out with all these different cameras, and we were
Bill Stites:
going to bring in professor. This is before, like, all the
Bill Stites:
zoom and the Google meet and all that stuff, and we were going to
Bill Stites:
connect with all these college professors and bring them in to
Bill Stites:
teach our kids. The problem was, was that everything that we had
Bill Stites:
in that room had to match up, from a technology standpoint, to
Bill Stites:
what was going in all those other places. And if it didn't
Bill Stites:
match, you didn't connect. So we spent all this money on this
Bill Stites:
room, and it was a great place to go. Say, Oh, your kids are
Bill Stites:
going to work with, you know, professors from Boston
Bill Stites:
University, and this, that and the other thing. And it maybe
Bill Stites:
happened like once, three out of a seven day cycle, and it wasn't
Bill Stites:
really what we wanted it to be, or it really should have been,
Bill Stites:
and it never really delivered on the promise. And I think it
Bill Stites:
sounds like that's what you're doing
Dominic Salerno:
there. I'll throw in another example. IPads,
Dominic Salerno:
I don't think they're as big a deal in schools as they've been
Dominic Salerno:
made out to be. You can have moments where iPads are great
Dominic Salerno:
learning tools, right? Children are interacting with them.
Dominic Salerno:
You'll have setups where it's like, Let's do health and
Dominic Salerno:
learning. Let's show the inside of the body. And you have the
Dominic Salerno:
children, they're like, pointing it around the room in a space,
Dominic Salerno:
and they're seeing all this stuff happening. And that's
Dominic Salerno:
great. It's awesome. I enjoy watching it and you're using it.
Dominic Salerno:
But is it that much better than talking about it, having a
Dominic Salerno:
textbook and just delivering the information. I mean, we learned
Dominic Salerno:
that way. Are we any less than capable from it because we
Dominic Salerno:
didn't have the iPad? Those kind of things I try to think about
Dominic Salerno:
when rationalizing the technology use, when approaching
Dominic Salerno:
any innovation that's coming through at St Bernard's, we were
Dominic Salerno:
thinking about jot. It great product. In our case, it was an
Dominic Salerno:
LMS thing, so we couldn't really go deeper with it, but just the
Dominic Salerno:
idea of E Ink tablets, just focused on handwriting. It's a
Dominic Salerno:
wonderful thing, right? We care about handwriting in our school,
Dominic Salerno:
we give awards for it. So having that the Jada tablets, same
Dominic Salerno:
thing. I think they use books, which is a nice tablet in our
Dominic Salerno:
case. How much more is it than just handwriting in class? You
Dominic Salerno:
have to weigh those things, right? How meaningful is it?
Dominic Salerno:
It's great with this
Peter Frank:
podcast, because we always get differing views, and
Peter Frank:
sometimes completely conflicting views. So just yesterday, we did
Peter Frank:
an episode, and it was all experiential learning. It was
Peter Frank:
all about having the students experience it. And maybe that's
Peter Frank:
not conflicting with what you're saying necessarily. So
Peter Frank:
presenting this view that st Bernards has, I'm curious, what
Peter Frank:
kind of things do you experience that you think to yourself, see
Peter Frank:
this is why we do it this
Dominic Salerno:
way, I should preface I'm also speaking for
Dominic Salerno:
myself, not necessarily the school, even though we do do
Dominic Salerno:
those things. One example is just doing research. We're an
Dominic Salerno:
all boys school, so we have boys on Chromebooks, and the
Dominic Salerno:
Chromebooks are great, and they could do all their research
Dominic Salerno:
online, but a same furniture thing to do is go to the
Dominic Salerno:
library, grab the book off the shelf, read through it, and
Dominic Salerno:
reference the book. There's a tactile thing to it. I'm sure
Dominic Salerno:
there's a learning specialist out there that's probably like,
Dominic Salerno:
this helps you memorize and take in the information more those
Dominic Salerno:
kinds of things are like st Bernards
Hiram Cuevas:
and Dominic. I think what you're addressing
Hiram Cuevas:
there are the various learning modalities, how they take in
Hiram Cuevas:
information. And if you are at a very, what I'm going to call a
Hiram Cuevas:
generic level, on the continuum of a transformative education,
Hiram Cuevas:
if you're using technology in the exact same way that you were
Hiram Cuevas:
doing your teaching prior to using the tech, that's not a
Hiram Cuevas:
transformative experience for the child. I remember back when
Hiram Cuevas:
I was still teaching, we would actually try really hard to have
Hiram Cuevas:
a kinesthetic approach, a visual approach and an auditory
Hiram Cuevas:
approach, so that we were hitting all three modalities in
Hiram Cuevas:
which a child is able to take in information and really. The goal
Hiram Cuevas:
there was not so much to make sure that one modality was
Hiram Cuevas:
better than another, it was to try and reach as many kids as
Hiram Cuevas:
possible. And what I find fascinating is when you talked
Hiram Cuevas:
about the Jot it tablet, there's some interesting pluses to that,
Hiram Cuevas:
from the distractiveness of notifications, and I think
Hiram Cuevas:
that's why we are seeing schools getting rid of phones. I think
Hiram Cuevas:
there's going to be a place for that, this tablet technology
Hiram Cuevas:
that has the eating capabilities, because we're also
Hiram Cuevas:
an old boy school at St Christopher's, and we have heard
Hiram Cuevas:
from our alums when they go to college that a lot of students
Hiram Cuevas:
don't have the endurance to handwrite anymore if they're
Hiram Cuevas:
being asked to hand write on exams and draft essays and
Hiram Cuevas:
whatnot, if they are not allowed to use their laptops, and it's a
Hiram Cuevas:
very different exercise to produce an essay by hand than it
Hiram Cuevas:
is to compose on a word processor. So they're different
Hiram Cuevas:
skills, and they're different ways of thinking. And to your
Hiram Cuevas:
point earlier about going from A to D, handwriting requires you
Hiram Cuevas:
to go from A to B to C to D, whereas word processing allows
Hiram Cuevas:
you to jump around a little bit. I'm going to cut this and paste
Hiram Cuevas:
it here, et cetera. Yeah,
Dominic Salerno:
it doesn't allow you to focus or refine
Dominic Salerno:
your thoughts as much as you probably would if you were
Dominic Salerno:
handwriting.
Bill Stites:
There's research to back that up in terms of your
Bill Stites:
ability to note take or the speed factor with the pieces
Bill Stites:
when you're typing. There's definitely a speed factor there,
Bill Stites:
but there is more of a connection to the brain,
Bill Stites:
connection to the data retention that you're talking about in
Bill Stites:
terms of that writing aspect of it, and the ability to notate,
Bill Stites:
the ability to sketch note, to draw around, you know, the way
Bill Stites:
in which you can organize your thoughts with the digital ink or
Bill Stites:
a paper and pencil. So I think Dominic a lot of what you're
Bill Stites:
talking about, whether it's the iPad tablets, your example of
Bill Stites:
like augmented reality. You hold it up, you can expand it, you
Bill Stites:
can see different things going around. I think that those
Bill Stites:
tools, as Hiram pointed out, if they're enhancing the exercise,
Bill Stites:
if they're doing something that you can't do in their
Bill Stites:
traditional sense, then they're adding value. They're adding
Bill Stites:
meaning to what you're doing. When I switched majors from fine
Bill Stites:
arts, I went to early childhood Ed, so it was like, focused on
Bill Stites:
block building manipulatives. You're really focused on
Bill Stites:
developing those skills at an early age. So our technology
Bill Stites:
choices were very deliberate, because we were working on
Bill Stites:
building the foundational blocks for which all the other learning
Bill Stites:
is going to happen. And I think that approach, which is the
Bill Stites:
approach I think you're describing, is the approach that
Bill Stites:
you take that early learning approach, and you apply that
Bill Stites:
throughout the course of the time that students are in in
Bill Stites:
terms of deliberate choices that are going to bring real meaning
Bill Stites:
to the learning in ways that you can't do under a traditional
Bill Stites:
method, because there is value to what those traditional
Bill Stites:
options provide. It just
Dominic Salerno:
reminded me at kindergarten how, you know, we
Dominic Salerno:
have the interactive episodes and don't put stuff on the board
Dominic Salerno:
and have the digital interactions where the boys will
Dominic Salerno:
drag something to something else, and that's awesome. But
Dominic Salerno:
you know what works just as well? The pieces of construction
Dominic Salerno:
paper, the printouts laminated and on the magnets, and they're
Dominic Salerno:
just moving them across the board. It's the same learning
Dominic Salerno:
without the electronic component, and they do both. But
Dominic Salerno:
I can tell you this, when the power goes out, they're still
Dominic Salerno:
learning. When the smart pen goes out, they'll just grab the
Dominic Salerno:
whiteboard marker and keep going. And that's important,
Dominic Salerno:
right? They don't stop in learning. Well,
Hiram Cuevas:
I think we're at an interesting point of
Hiram Cuevas:
inflection here, where we're also trying to examine how much
Hiram Cuevas:
technology should be being used within a classroom. I mean, the
Hiram Cuevas:
whole phone conversation has really blown up to the extent
Hiram Cuevas:
where we really don't want phones being used throughout the
Hiram Cuevas:
school day. We're seeing some nations in the EU passing
Hiram Cuevas:
legislation where they're saying no social media until the age of
Hiram Cuevas:
13, or phone use at different times. And I think the same can
Hiram Cuevas:
be said about the curriculum. We probably dove in head and feet
Hiram Cuevas:
first the majority of schools in terms of trying to leverage
Hiram Cuevas:
technology with the students, because we had to show an ROI,
Hiram Cuevas:
yep. So there are two different kinds of conversations I think
Hiram Cuevas:
that one could have regarding technology. I mean, Bill school,
Hiram Cuevas:
for example, is an Apple Distinguished School three
Hiram Cuevas:
times, and there's a reason why. It's not because of the shiny
Hiram Cuevas:
apple, it's because they're doing quality work at his
Hiram Cuevas:
school. And so it has to be intentional, right? Yeah, we
Hiram Cuevas:
have, for instance, in our computer lab, we have backs. We
Hiram Cuevas:
have a lab set of Macs. So when you come in purposely to do
Hiram Cuevas:
those things, you go on those but any other time, Chromebook
Hiram Cuevas:
go guardian, you know, all the pieces of the puzzle put in
Hiram Cuevas:
place to protect the children from themselves. I'm curious,
Peter Frank:
in that environment. I'm sure many of
Peter Frank:
our listeners can relate. Have there been times where there was
Peter Frank:
tech that you saw value and said, hey, I can think of a
Peter Frank:
purpose. Or I have teachers saying, Hey, we have a purpose
Peter Frank:
here. Have there been times that you've brought tech and tried to
Peter Frank:
get it to the school, but the school, because of the
Peter Frank:
philosophy, the school, just resisted and said, No. Have
Peter Frank:
there been challenges like that? Anytime you've been successful,
Peter Frank:
maybe campaigning for something. The
Dominic Salerno:
Jada one was probably the best example. We
Dominic Salerno:
loved it. I love it. I think the E Ink, the handwriting, because
Dominic Salerno:
it would have alleviated two problems, the handwriting focus
Dominic Salerno:
and having Chromebooks. Because, you know, you go lock down a
Dominic Salerno:
Chromebook, but kids try to circumvent, and I spend half the
Dominic Salerno:
time trying to prevent them from, you know, sabotaging it.
Dominic Salerno:
So does that. And I pushed for that, but that didn't work out.
Dominic Salerno:
There was some stuff that went the other way, where they got it
Dominic Salerno:
and they ended up backing off of it, like the iPads. Another
Dominic Salerno:
example was, I think they used to have Kindles in the library.
Dominic Salerno:
This was before my time, but obviously they didn't go that
Dominic Salerno:
route. So there's like, these little bits where they, like,
Dominic Salerno:
they step in, proceeded, and then with caution, stepped right
Dominic Salerno:
back out. Sure. I'm
Peter Frank:
sure that's common at all your schools. You're
Peter Frank:
introduced new things, and you have a plan, and you think you
Peter Frank:
know how it's gonna go, and then that's not how it goes.
Hiram Cuevas:
And you watch it all evolve at the same time.
Hiram Cuevas:
Great example, you know, you've got the computer lab model. And
Hiram Cuevas:
then there was, who remembers cows in schools, computers on
Hiram Cuevas:
wheels, where you just roll the cart around the school, because
Hiram Cuevas:
you kept laptops in there, because you moved away from the
Hiram Cuevas:
desktop model, and then eventually you moved to a one to
Hiram Cuevas:
one model. And now, I dare say, a lot of schools because of the
Hiram Cuevas:
phones. You've got smart watches, you've got tablets,
Hiram Cuevas:
you've got laptops, you've got phones, you've got each kid now
Hiram Cuevas:
potentially having two or three devices with them at all times
Bill Stites:
you mentioned your Ali cohort, former colleague,
Bill Stites:
longtime friend, Steve France. You know, just from the
Bill Stites:
conversations I've had with Steve, the conversations I've
Bill Stites:
had with you, seeing everything, you know, it's a very tight
Bill Stites:
group that you developed with that cohort, given the school
Bill Stites:
you're at, the mindset, the conversation that we've had to
Bill Stites:
this point, how has your participation in the ALI program
Bill Stites:
shaped, redefined, molded your thinking around these things by
Bill Stites:
the interactions that you had with the group as a whole, and
Bill Stites:
then those interactions that you had within your cohort, within
Bill Stites:
that larger group. Thank you for bringing
Dominic Salerno:
it up, because that's a strong part of my
Dominic Salerno:
continuing education with technology, meeting my cohort
Dominic Salerno:
and then doing the capstone project with them, and all that
Dominic Salerno:
really got us talking, and it got us connecting. And actually,
Dominic Salerno:
I don't, I don't know if there's other cohorts from other years
Dominic Salerno:
that keep talking, but we talk like every week, whether it's
Dominic Salerno:
through WhatsApp or when we do our podcasts or whatnot, and we
Dominic Salerno:
have meetings, we'll have Google meet check ins every two weeks,
Dominic Salerno:
but we'll, like, commiserate together about certain things,
Dominic Salerno:
or, like, try to problem solve sales pitch. If I didn't go into
Dominic Salerno:
AI, I would have never had that, and I'm glad I had that. And the
Dominic Salerno:
icing on the cake is having that help get the ball rolling, to
Dominic Salerno:
make me feel like, okay, I could go for T list for my title,
Dominic Salerno:
information technology administrator. I'm not a
Dominic Salerno:
director, but in my cohort, there are and me having those
Dominic Salerno:
conversations made me feel like, you know what, I'm ready. I feel
Dominic Salerno:
like I'm on that level. I'm gonna go take the T list exam
Dominic Salerno:
and prove myself and prepare myself so I'm ready for the next
Dominic Salerno:
step when that time comes. That's
Peter Frank:
great. We love that. And I can tell you from
Peter Frank:
observation that the cohorts absolutely stay in touch. You're
Peter Frank:
definitely not alone there. We even saw in Atlanta at that past
Peter Frank:
conference, the latest cohort. They did the conference
Peter Frank:
together. There was this group of like 20 people that they were
Peter Frank:
together the entire conference. And I learned after a day or so,
Peter Frank:
it was like, oh, that's the latest Ali cohorts. And they
Peter Frank:
were just peas in a pod, and they just do everything
Peter Frank:
together. It's very common. That's great to hear that
Dominic Salerno:
absolutely the same. We met every day at the
Dominic Salerno:
conference, and we're already thinking about next year, right?
Peter Frank:
So let's talk about the tilas as the certification
Peter Frank:
person at ATLIS, it makes me very happy. It was one of the
Peter Frank:
reasons we wanted to have you on the pod. We've had a few people
Peter Frank:
who are in the TLS on the podcast. You told us about what
Peter Frank:
led to you deciding the confidence and having the
Peter Frank:
support of the ALI cohort, and going through all that you
Peter Frank:
decided to go for it. So talk about like, what was next? What
Peter Frank:
was your journey like to go ahead and earn it?
Dominic Salerno:
One was honestly soul searching, because
Dominic Salerno:
you have to feel ready for it. That's the mindset. I'm ready.
Dominic Salerno:
The next part was the T list prep program, making sure that I
Dominic Salerno:
got into that so I had an understanding and exam the
Dominic Salerno:
candidate handbook with the sample questions, so I had like
Dominic Salerno:
a frame of reference on how I could approach the exam, and
Dominic Salerno:
then just talking with my cohort, ping ponging the
Dominic Salerno:
questions and asking, why is this the answer, as opposed to
Dominic Salerno:
that? And back and forth, just to try to get an understanding.
Dominic Salerno:
From my perspective, it was a little bit more difficult. I
Dominic Salerno:
don't wanna say too difficult, but I'm in a small school, 365
Dominic Salerno:
kids, and the T list in this case reference like 1000
Dominic Salerno:
students school, 200 and something. So I faculty and
Dominic Salerno:
staff. So I'm like a third the size. I had to change my
Dominic Salerno:
thinking in preparation for the exam. That was the hurdle, how
Dominic Salerno:
do I think on a bigger, larger scale?
Peter Frank:
Sure, for reference for our listeners, the
Peter Frank:
technology leaders and independent school
Peter Frank:
certification, the TLS part of preparing for it, you learned
Peter Frank:
that every question on the exam is going through a certain lens
Peter Frank:
of a certain school, a school that has about 1000 students.
Peter Frank:
You should be answering the questions from the perspective
Peter Frank:
of you are the primary technology leader, so you are
Peter Frank:
leading the department, and you have about five people beneath
Peter Frank:
you that work for you and support you in your department.
Peter Frank:
Then there's a few more lenses that we talk about at today
Peter Frank:
school and whatnot, and that's what Dominic's referring to. So
Peter Frank:
for some people like Dominic, if you don't have that experience
Peter Frank:
at all, or you've had it, but that's not your current
Peter Frank:
experience. You do have to shift a bit. And we understand that
Peter Frank:
that is a challenge. One
Bill Stites:
of the things about the T list, when we were talking
Bill Stites:
about the development of it, the idea was that it wasn't like a
Bill Stites:
step one, you have to do Aoi, and the step two is you have to
Bill Stites:
do tos. But I think from what you're describing with your
Bill Stites:
school, I think that Ali and that cohort and those
Bill Stites:
conversations and those discussions and being able to
Bill Stites:
hear from others in other size schools probably helps develop
Bill Stites:
the frame so that when you sit down to that, you as somebody
Bill Stites:
who's at a smaller school, given your numbers, you might be
Bill Stites:
sitting down looking at that T list exam and saying to
Bill Stites:
yourself, wow, like, I don't even know how to wrap my head
Bill Stites:
around this, because I'd never even thought about it this way.
Bill Stites:
Ali, and I think those connections and those
Bill Stites:
interactions, given the scope and the breadth of the people
Bill Stites:
that are there, require you to have those conversations,
Bill Stites:
because you need to be actively listening to what those members
Bill Stites:
in the overall cohort or in the smaller groups are talking
Bill Stites:
about, and as you have those troubleshooting, those
Bill Stites:
generative conversations, as you think about what the capstone is
Bill Stites:
going to be and how you're going to develop around that, you need
Bill Stites:
to take all those things into perspective. So whether
Bill Stites:
intentionally or not, the Ali, I don't want to put words in your
Bill Stites:
mouth, but I think it would probably provide a very good for
Bill Stites:
probably provide a very good frame for at least getting into
Bill Stites:
that mindset that you've discussed. I will
Dominic Salerno:
accept those words. I agree one doesn't
Dominic Salerno:
necessarily facilitate the other, but I think it helps on
Dominic Salerno:
the path when you're going through Ali and you're going
Dominic Salerno:
through like the monthly chats and the discussion groups and
Dominic Salerno:
all that, you learn different things. I learned stuff about
Dominic Salerno:
schools in California that I would never have occurred to me.
Dominic Salerno:
Being in New York. You would think all independent schools
Dominic Salerno:
have similar approaches in other ways, but no, they could be
Dominic Salerno:
drastically different, especially like org charts and
Dominic Salerno:
things like that. Those were the harder questions for me, because
Dominic Salerno:
an org chart's different for me. At my school, I could talk to my
Dominic Salerno:
director and then the director could talk to the CFO. That
Dominic Salerno:
would be the chain of command, but we're small. I can just go
Dominic Salerno:
ask the CFO. It's a different approach. Someone would say,
Dominic Salerno:
well, you're circumventing the chain of command. You going over
Dominic Salerno:
your director. Now I'm going for clarification. Hey, what's up?
Dominic Salerno:
What's going on? Blah, blah, blah. Hey, by the way, did you
Dominic Salerno:
know? Oh, okay, thank you for updating me. Now I know. And
Dominic Salerno:
then I move on to the next thing, right? That doesn't
Dominic Salerno:
always happen when you're in, 1000 1500 student school. As it
Dominic Salerno:
gets bigger now, all of a sudden you have to work your way up.
Dominic Salerno:
There's gonna be meetings about it. It's a month later you talk
Dominic Salerno:
about it. So it does change the approach when you're a smaller
Dominic Salerno:
school,
Peter Frank:
right? Do you need to do that translation then for
Peter Frank:
the certification? Yeah. But he just said, you seem to have
Peter Frank:
found value in seeing the other experiences.
Dominic Salerno:
Yeah, I took the exam, but I would ask my
Dominic Salerno:
cohorts, like, Hey, Steve, how do we go about such and such?
Dominic Salerno:
Because I'm thinking, this is the answer, but obviously it's
Dominic Salerno:
this other answer. Why is it that other answer? And he might
Dominic Salerno:
go. Well, you would never ask that person when you're in a
Dominic Salerno:
school this big. You would go to that person to ask about
Dominic Salerno:
budgeting or this and that, those kinds of things. I know
Dominic Salerno:
I'm a little vague, but those are the kinds of things that
Dominic Salerno:
come up that aren't as apparent to me being in a smaller school
Dominic Salerno:
and
Bill Stites:
Dominic, the one thing I want to point out is Be
Bill Stites:
wary of any advice Steve France gives you. That's all I'm going
Bill Stites:
to say. You just need to be very careful about what you take from
Bill Stites:
him, because it can be questionable. I'll
Dominic Salerno:
throw out another name, Cecile, because
Dominic Salerno:
Cecile is also very helpful, and she has a campus. And I'm not on
Dominic Salerno:
a campus. I'm in a small, little building on a street Upper East
Dominic Salerno:
Side. Actually, that's a good example. I'm not on a campus,
Dominic Salerno:
right? How many things come up when you're on a campus? Data
Dominic Salerno:
from one end to the other, trenching, all that stuff. I'll
Dominic Salerno:
never have to deal with that. The most is you trench out the
Dominic Salerno:
sidewalk, and you gotta get the permit in front of the building
Dominic Salerno:
to do it right. It's a little bit different. So
Peter Frank:
having earned it now, tell me about moments since
Peter Frank:
earning it that you've thought, Oh, the T list or the PREP
Peter Frank:
program, or I heard in one of my questions with the cohorts about
Peter Frank:
the T list, like this came up. One
Dominic Salerno:
of the things about the T list, they tell you
Dominic Salerno:
the percentages of how you did on the different domains. Yeah,
Dominic Salerno:
that was valuable to me because now it gave me confidence. I'm
Dominic Salerno:
like, Okay, I must know what I'm talking about, because these
Dominic Salerno:
domains gave me an idea of where I'm at. I guess nationally, I
Dominic Salerno:
should say, amongst our peers,
Peter Frank:
sure, amongst the candidates. So what Dominic's
Peter Frank:
talking about is, you receive your results immediately. It's a
Peter Frank:
pass, fail result. However you do get to see to certification
Peter Frank:
is broken down into four domains. We've broken the
Peter Frank:
technology leader role down into four domains, and each question
Peter Frank:
on the exam is tied to one of those domains. And so you see at
Peter Frank:
the end with your pass fail, the percentages correct in each of
Peter Frank:
the four domains. So Dominic, you saw in a domain, or more
Peter Frank:
than one domain, but you did particularly well, and you're
Peter Frank:
saying that boosted your confidence in
Hiram Cuevas:
that area. Yeah, I
Dominic Salerno:
remember operations and professional
Dominic Salerno:
development were high. I was like, Okay, I know this. If
Dominic Salerno:
someone asked me about this, more often than not, I'm giving
Dominic Salerno:
good information. I'm giving a good, respectable answer. And
Dominic Salerno:
then the other stuff, I didn't score as high as I would have
Dominic Salerno:
liked. Now I know going forward, I'm going to do more, PD,
Dominic Salerno:
focusing on those other points so I could build myself up so
Dominic Salerno:
when I do go into a room and have a conversation, oh, Dominic
Dominic Salerno:
Salerno telis, he knows what he's talking about, and that's
Dominic Salerno:
the confidence that I want. I want to know when I go into a
Dominic Salerno:
meeting. Maybe it could be an interview for the tech director
Dominic Salerno:
somewhere, that when I walk in there, I can confidently speak
Dominic Salerno:
and feel good about myself, knowing, yes, I have the backing
Dominic Salerno:
that says I know what I'm doing. I know what I'm talking about,
Dominic Salerno:
right? That's interesting,
Peter Frank:
because you're someone that you've said that
Peter Frank:
you don't have that director title. The vast majority of
Peter Frank:
people who take the teal is have the title. So it's
Bill Stites:
it's reinforcing. And I think Peter, hearing you
Bill Stites:
say that for a lot of us that have the title, the
Bill Stites:
certification just reinforces that. I can think back when I
Bill Stites:
graduated, there wasn't an undergraduate, there weren't
Bill Stites:
even masters programs in anything as it related to
Bill Stites:
educational technology. So the Tila certification does a nice
Bill Stites:
job of the affirmation that Dominic's describing in terms of
Bill Stites:
proving your understanding and within those different domains
Bill Stites:
and relieving you of the imposter syndrome that you might
Bill Stites:
have in some cases with the work like this. But I think for
Bill Stites:
people who don't have the title, who are aspiring to the title.
Bill Stites:
You know, I think one of the things we've said all along is
Bill Stites:
it gives those people making the hires. It gives yourself the
Bill Stites:
confidence. It gives the employer that might be looking
Bill Stites:
at you or or your current employer, you know, the way in
Bill Stites:
which they're looking at you and seeing you within the context of
Bill Stites:
the organization. It gives you that level of gravitas that I've
Bill Stites:
achieved this I've proven myself to the point where I've studied,
Bill Stites:
I've taken this examination. I'm keeping up with the work to
Bill Stites:
maintain you mentioned those areas where you pass, but you
Bill Stites:
may not have scored as high well, you're doing the
Bill Stites:
professional development work. You're that lifelong learner
Bill Stites:
that we all talk about in terms of aspiring to that level, so
Bill Stites:
that you can stay current, so that you can stay abreast of
Bill Stites:
those things we talk about, our upcoming tech leaders, those
Bill Stites:
that are rising in the ranks. You know, it puts you right into
Bill Stites:
the mix at that point, because you've done the work to
Peter Frank:
demonstrate the knowledge, right? I really like
Peter Frank:
the observation about I could see where I needed to direct my
Peter Frank:
professional development. And that's something where we met
Peter Frank:
with a head of school at the conference specifically to talk
Peter Frank:
about the TLS, and he observed that that was his number two
Peter Frank:
most compelling thing about it was that when these technology
Peter Frank:
directors coming to him saying, hey, I want this professional
Peter Frank:
development. I want that professional to. Element. And he
Peter Frank:
feels like, I don't know if this is valuable to the school. I'm
Peter Frank:
kind of just like, it's all in my tech directors hands. But he
Peter Frank:
felt like, with the T list and these domains or whatnot, it
Peter Frank:
gives like a framework to direct the professional development and
Peter Frank:
just kind of reinforces where to direct those things in general.
Peter Frank:
So that's powerful. What do we got to do to get Hiram to get
Peter Frank:
the T list. I'm just gonna call him out right now. Yeah,
Hiram Cuevas:
he just did.
Peter Frank:
Think about your confidence level. Hiram, you
Peter Frank:
could boost your confidence.
Dominic Salerno:
Are you gonna let some scrappy young guy like
Dominic Salerno:
me stop you from
Peter Frank:
rights? I mean, come on,
Hiram Cuevas:
if I only knew some people who could help me
Hiram Cuevas:
with the D list.
Peter Frank:
We'll talk offline about that. It's fine. So before
Peter Frank:
we wrap things up, Dominic, thanks so much for doing this.
Peter Frank:
We don't always bookend it like this, but we will today. We were
Peter Frank:
talking about getaways when we just need to get away vacation
Peter Frank:
spots like an under the radar. Others won't think of this kind
Peter Frank:
of getaway spot.
Dominic Salerno:
I got a good one, but it's a bad one at the
Dominic Salerno:
same time. No, no, no, when I say, why my favorite getaway
Dominic Salerno:
spot, and this is truthfully, going to my wife city in
Dominic Salerno:
Ukraine. I love it there. Oh, wow, with everything that's
Dominic Salerno:
going on, obviously that's not the spot to go to right now.
Dominic Salerno:
Yeah, and we were just talking about how we want to go again. I
Dominic Salerno:
want to go see my in laws. I have this mayor of the town
Dominic Salerno:
thing. When I'm there, I say hi to everybody in English, and
Dominic Salerno:
everybody's like, hey, like, Hey, back at you. You know,
Dominic Salerno:
happy to see you.
Hiram Cuevas:
I could see it. You're not speaking English.
Hiram Cuevas:
You're speaking new Yorkish.
Bill Stites:
My inner Bronx, I haven't noticed.
Peter Frank:
Thank you, Dominic, thanks so much for the
Peter Frank:
conversation. We appreciate
Dominic Salerno:
it. Thank you.
Peter Frank:
This has been talking technology with Atlas,
Peter Frank:
produced by the Association of Technology Leaders in
Peter Frank:
Independent Schools. For more information about Atlas and
Peter Frank:
Atlas membership, please visit theatlas.org if you enjoyed this
Peter Frank:
discussion, please subscribe, leave a review and share this
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podcast with your colleagues in the independent school
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community. Thank you for listening. You.
