Tech Leadership and Change Agency in Independent Schools
Transitioning into a new technology leadership role at an independent school presents unique challenges and opportunities. Two technology leaders share their insights on navigating these transitions, from establishing a vision and fostering team dynamics to managing change and building trust within the school community. This episode provides valuable guidance for current and aspiring technology leaders in independent schools.
Resources
- Ravenscroft School
- Marlborough School
- FolioCollaborative, flexible, paperless, cloud-based experience for managing and guiding professional growth and learning, and encouraging collaboration among faculty and staff
- Technology Leaders in Independent Schools (TLIS) certification, differentiating independent school technology leaders by identifying those with the appropriate skills and experience, as well as commitment to ongoing professional development, to manage with excellence their complex and ever-changing role
- Community-building resources from ATLIS
- Management Time: Who’s Got the Monkey?, article from Harvard Business Review
Transcript
Peter Frank 00:00:02
Phil, welcome to Talking Technology with ATLIS,
Peter Frank 00:00:05
the show that plugs you into the important topics and trends for
Peter Frank 00:00:08
technology leaders all through a unique Independent School lens.
Peter Frank 00:00:12
We'll hear stories from technology directors and other
Peter Frank 00:00:15
special guests from the Independent School community,
Peter Frank 00:00:17
and provide you with focused learning and deep dive topics.
Peter Frank 00:00:21
And now please welcome your host. Kristina Lewellen,
Christina Lewellen 00:00:25
Hello everyone, and welcome back to
Christina Lewellen 00:00:27
talking technology with Atlas. I'm Kristina Lewellen, the
Christina Lewellen 00:00:30
President and CEO of the Association of Technology
Christina Lewellen 00:00:33
Leaders in Independent
Bill Stites 00:00:34
Schools. And I am Bill Stites, the Director of
Bill Stites 00:00:37
Technology at Montclair Kimberly Academy in Montclair, New
Bill Stites 00:00:40
Jersey. Hello, Bill. How are you today? I'm freezing today. It's
Bill Stites 00:00:45
cold. It is
Christina Lewellen 00:00:47
cold. I mean, you are in New Jersey.
Christina Lewellen 00:00:49
It's always cold in New Jersey. Well, we're just
Bill Stites 00:00:51
cold people, maybe. But I mean, in general, it is
Bill Stites 00:00:56
cold outside and it's windy and it cuts right through you to the
Bill Stites 00:01:00
bone,
Christina Lewellen 00:01:01
it really does. I am in Atlanta today, and
Christina Lewellen 00:01:04
I am doing the final visit of our property in terms of our
Christina Lewellen 00:01:07
planning for the annual conference. And I'm getting
Christina Lewellen 00:01:09
excited, like I'm walking through the space, and I can
Christina Lewellen 00:01:12
kind of feel the energy of the Atlas people being with us. And
Christina Lewellen 00:01:16
I'm getting real excited about annual conference.
Bill Stites 00:01:19
I'm very much looking forward to that we have
Bill Stites 00:01:21
a large contingent coming down. It's going to be something that
Bill Stites 00:01:25
we're very excited for, and can't wait to see everyone that
Bill Stites 00:01:28
goes this year. It's always my highlight of the year.
Christina Lewellen 00:01:30
So I almost hate to say this, but on my way
Christina Lewellen 00:01:34
out the door this week, one of my daughters was home, and my
Christina Lewellen 00:01:38
husband and we were talking about the fact that I'm coming
Christina Lewellen 00:01:40
down to Atlanta, and I was talking about the fact that you
Christina Lewellen 00:01:43
and Hiram are constantly on me about this whole zombie thing,
Christina Lewellen 00:01:47
so they saw fit to turn on the first episode of Walking Dead.
Christina Lewellen 00:01:53
And I will admit that it kind of sucked me in. I still don't know
Christina Lewellen 00:01:57
what's happening. They would lean over and be like, This is
Christina Lewellen 00:02:00
how you kill them, right? And it's very graphic, so I'm not
Christina Lewellen 00:02:02
sure if I recommend this or not, and I'm not sure if I'll watch
Christina Lewellen 00:02:05
episode two, but I did watch one. So yay, yay, yay. You.
Christina Lewellen 00:02:11
Okay, yeah,
Bill Stites 00:02:12
you. It's about the human stories. It's about the
Bill Stites 00:02:15
drama that I really like. It has nothing to do with the genre
Bill Stites 00:02:18
whatsoever. It's a drama based series that I think has
Bill Stites 00:02:22
excellent acting and directing, and it's well worth watching.
Bill Stites 00:02:26
The zombies just are out at bonuses.
Christina Lewellen 00:02:28
Bonuses, they're disgusting, all right.
Christina Lewellen 00:02:31
Well, that's all I got for the intro. So there you go. Oh, but
Christina Lewellen 00:02:36
we are in Atlanta and looking forward to our conference
Christina Lewellen 00:02:38
registration is going really well. Our vendor community so
Christina Lewellen 00:02:41
supportive as always. So we're really looking forward to it.
Christina Lewellen 00:02:44
Two faces. I am certain we'll be walking those halls. We welcome
Christina Lewellen 00:02:48
to the pod today. Louis to low, who is the Chief Information
Christina Lewellen 00:02:51
Officer at Ravenscroft school, and I also have with us, Matt
Christina Lewellen 00:02:54
Norco, the Director of Technology at Mar rural school.
Christina Lewellen 00:02:58
Guys, thank you so much for joining us on the pod. Glad to
Christina Lewellen 00:03:00
have you both here. Awesome
Louis Tullo 00:03:02
to be here. Excited to chat with you all. And Matt,
Louis Tullo 00:03:06
yep, it's great to be here. Thanks for having us.
Christina Lewellen 00:03:08
So part of why we wanted to bring you in,
Christina Lewellen 00:03:10
you guys, is that both of you have made some interesting moves
Christina Lewellen 00:03:14
in your career. We talk a lot on the podcast about the fact that
Christina Lewellen 00:03:19
the first generation tech leaders at independent schools
Christina Lewellen 00:03:22
are starting to look toward the end of their careers. You know,
Christina Lewellen 00:03:25
they might not be stepping out quite yet. They might not be
Christina Lewellen 00:03:27
retiring quite yet, but with that phase of their careers kind
Christina Lewellen 00:03:32
of firmly in their sites, they're starting to have
Christina Lewellen 00:03:35
conversations around succession planning, business continuity
Christina Lewellen 00:03:38
planning, and I know that both of you gentlemen have made some
Christina Lewellen 00:03:42
pretty impressive leaps in the last couple years, so I really
Christina Lewellen 00:03:45
wanted to talk to you a little bit about how you thought about
Christina Lewellen 00:03:47
that and what your leadership styles are like now that you're
Christina Lewellen 00:03:50
in these top leadership positions for your schools. But
Christina Lewellen 00:03:53
before we walk that path together, I'll give you guys
Christina Lewellen 00:03:56
just a second to introduce yourselves and tell us a little
Christina Lewellen 00:03:59
bit about your background, Louis, we'll go to you first.
Louis Tullo 00:04:03
Yeah, I've been working in it now for over 15
Louis Tullo 00:04:06
years, which is kind of crazy to think about that, because
Louis Tullo 00:04:10
originally graduated with my bachelor's degree in theater, so
Louis Tullo 00:04:13
I thought my life was going to turn out much more differently
Louis Tullo 00:04:16
than it has.
Christina Lewellen 00:04:17
Now this is something that we have in
Christina Lewellen 00:04:19
common, Louis, is that I'm a theater geek as well. I mean,
Christina Lewellen 00:04:23
probably not as bad as you are, but we haven't even talked
Christina Lewellen 00:04:25
wicked. That's where we should have started this conversation,
Christina Lewellen 00:04:28
not with zombies, but with wicked. Yes.
Louis Tullo 00:04:31
And I feel like I've done my job as a theater
Louis Tullo 00:04:34
parent by converting my oldest to be completely obsessed with
Louis Tullo 00:04:38
defying gravity. And I think we've together, watched the
Louis Tullo 00:04:41
movie and maybe four or five times at home. Love it honestly,
Louis Tullo 00:04:45
working in it started out as I'm auditioning in New York, and
Louis Tullo 00:04:49
rather than working in food service, I'm going to work at
Louis Tullo 00:04:52
the help desk, because that's what I did during college. And
Louis Tullo 00:04:54
then as things slowly progressed, realized how much I
Louis Tullo 00:04:58
enjoyed the fact that. That technology is constantly
Louis Tullo 00:05:01
changing. It was an opportunity to connect with people in a way
Louis Tullo 00:05:04
that I enjoyed doing so because of my theater background, and
Louis Tullo 00:05:09
gratefully had some people along the way who saw leadership
Louis Tullo 00:05:12
potential in me and gave me a shot, even though my background
Louis Tullo 00:05:16
maybe made me the least likely candidate to be an IT leader and
Louis Tullo 00:05:20
really found my calling in independent schools. So
Christina Lewellen 00:05:23
you've always been on the tech side
Christina Lewellen 00:05:25
rather than the teaching side, which is kind of unusual among
Christina Lewellen 00:05:28
your peers.
Louis Tullo 00:05:29
Yeah. And interestingly enough, my first
Louis Tullo 00:05:32
tech job in an independent school, my title was the
Louis Tullo 00:05:35
Director of Educational Technology. In an interview
Louis Tullo 00:05:38
process, I had to basically prepare a TED style talk for a
Louis Tullo 00:05:43
group of faculty and a technology initiative I wanted
Louis Tullo 00:05:46
to lead. And I thought to myself, all right, let me just
Louis Tullo 00:05:49
reflect on what impacted me the most as a student. Take my tech
Louis Tullo 00:05:54
background, try to merge those two things together, obviously,
Louis Tullo 00:05:58
with the theater kid energy into the space, and it was really
Louis Tullo 00:06:03
exhilarating. So it's been an awesome opportunity getting to
Louis Tullo 00:06:07
apply those tech things in the school space. Awesome.
Christina Lewellen 00:06:11
And Matt, you most recently had been out
Christina Lewellen 00:06:13
here in the cold on the East Coast, like Bill, and now you
Christina Lewellen 00:06:17
are out in sunny California. So tell us a little bit about your
Christina Lewellen 00:06:20
journey?
Matt Norko 00:06:21
Yeah, absolutely. I think listening to Lewis, I
Matt Norko 00:06:24
realized that my journey is probably the exact opposite,
Matt Norko 00:06:27
literally in every respect. So I have a bachelor's in Business
Matt Norko 00:06:30
and Information Systems, and just happened to see a job
Matt Norko 00:06:34
posting for a tech role at a school from the newspaper. I
Matt Norko 00:06:39
applied for this job back when it was a newspaper ad. And so
Matt Norko 00:06:41
they were really little, it didn't have a lot. And I
Matt Norko 00:06:44
remember going through the phone interviews and going for an on
Matt Norko 00:06:48
site visit as a finalist, getting to the second interview
Matt Norko 00:06:51
of the day with the division head and the assistant head at
Matt Norko 00:06:53
the time. And they said, How do you feel about the teaching
Matt Norko 00:06:56
part? And I'm like, How did nobody mention this yet? So I
Matt Norko 00:06:59
sort of fell into a working at a school and then teaching, by
Matt Norko 00:07:04
sure happenstance, and wound up teaching middle school and doing
Matt Norko 00:07:09
academic tech integration work for 14 years. And I think for
Matt Norko 00:07:14
me, it was more I was doing this work for a really long time, and
Matt Norko 00:07:19
realized along the way, that rather than just be doing this
Matt Norko 00:07:22
work, I wanted to help lead this work, and that's what led me to
Matt Norko 00:07:26
go get a Master, is continue, sort of my academic journey, and
Matt Norko 00:07:30
then ultimately transition from that school to other schools.
Matt Norko 00:07:33
And now here, as you said, out in sunny California,
Christina Lewellen 00:07:37
awesome. So one of the things I want to do
Christina Lewellen 00:07:39
before we move into some of the reasons that we invited you here
Christina Lewellen 00:07:44
is I've come to understand that different roles are called
Christina Lewellen 00:07:49
different things at different schools. And so if I could ask
Christina Lewellen 00:07:54
you to please describe what you are responsible for as the Chief
Christina Lewellen 00:07:59
Information Officer at Ravenscroft, and then, of
Christina Lewellen 00:08:02
course, we'll go to Matt. But every tech leader, the duties as
Christina Lewellen 00:08:07
assigned is a little different for every school. So can you
Christina Lewellen 00:08:11
describe for me, Lewis, what you're responsible for at your
Christina Lewellen 00:08:14
school? In
Louis Tullo 00:08:15
my role right now, I am in charge of the IT side of
Louis Tullo 00:08:19
the house, which we call technical services so your rank
Louis Tullo 00:08:22
and file, help desk, techs and support personnel who are
Louis Tullo 00:08:27
awesome. I love my team. In addition, library services
Louis Tullo 00:08:30
currently falls under my purview, although that's
Louis Tullo 00:08:33
actually changing next year, with our Associate Head of
Louis Tullo 00:08:36
Academic Affairs coming on board, and that falling under
Louis Tullo 00:08:39
her, the registrar is a position, and all school
Louis Tullo 00:08:43
registrar is one that I brought under my purview a couple of
Louis Tullo 00:08:46
years ago and will remain here for now. In addition, our
Louis Tullo 00:08:50
director of Ed Tech and all of our STEM plus faculty fall
Louis Tullo 00:08:54
underneath my purview as well.
Christina Lewellen 00:08:56
How about you, Matt, what does Director of
Christina Lewellen 00:08:58
Technology mean to your school at Marlboro? Yeah,
Matt Norko 00:09:00
so Mar rural is a little similar to Lewis's. So I
Matt Norko 00:09:04
like to say everything that plugs in falls under tech here.
Matt Norko 00:09:07
That means both the operational side of the tech house, the
Matt Norko 00:09:11
educational side of the tech house, and then registrar,
Matt Norko 00:09:15
mostly those pieces. This is like my fourth school, and so
Matt Norko 00:09:19
that has looked so different at those different schools. It is
Matt Norko 00:09:22
interesting to see how it plays out in different places. That's
Christina Lewellen 00:09:25
exactly why I asked, because it's different
Christina Lewellen 00:09:27
even for Bill and Hiram, just getting a sense of who's in
Christina Lewellen 00:09:30
charge of what. All right, so my last question, and then I'll let
Christina Lewellen 00:09:33
Bill jump in, is in terms of setting the groundwork. Tell us
Christina Lewellen 00:09:37
a little bit about the nature of your schools. You both work at
Christina Lewellen 00:09:41
fairly prominent schools, so a lot of folks probably know, but
Christina Lewellen 00:09:44
like, what's the size of your team and what's your student
Christina Lewellen 00:09:48
body look like? Ravenscroft,
Louis Tullo 00:09:50
it's a day school, pre K through 12th grade, and we
Louis Tullo 00:09:53
have about 12 150 students, give or take, depending on the point
Louis Tullo 00:09:56
of the year that we're in. We are on a really large campus.
Louis Tullo 00:10:00
Yes, it's 135 acres, 13 buildings. So there are a lot of
Louis Tullo 00:10:05
things that connect and have wires, as Matt alluded to
Louis Tullo 00:10:09
before, when he was talking about his role and the size of
Louis Tullo 00:10:12
our team. We have about five FTEs on the IT side of the
Louis Tullo 00:10:16
house, including myself, because I really put myself as like a co
Louis Tullo 00:10:20
FTE, with all the different parts of my team, we have about
Louis Tullo 00:10:24
five STEM faculty, registrars, Department of one. And the
Louis Tullo 00:10:29
library services team is a department of five as well.
Louis Tullo 00:10:34
We're
Matt Norko 00:10:35
a department of five as well. We're a day school.
Matt Norko 00:10:38
We're a seventh through 12th grade girls school with 530
Matt Norko 00:10:42
students. We're an urban school, so we have, like, I don't know,
Matt Norko 00:10:45
two acre campus, very compact. Everything's really squished
Matt Norko 00:10:49
together, but a good FTE to student ratio on the tech side.
Matt Norko 00:10:54
So Louis, I
Bill Stites 00:10:55
actually have a question for you. And similarly,
Bill Stites 00:10:58
Matt, I'd be curious as to your take on this if you think it
Bill Stites 00:11:02
applies. So one of the conversations I had with Louis a
Bill Stites 00:11:04
little while ago is when he came into this position, his title,
Bill Stites 00:11:08
and Louis correct me if I'm wrong with CTO, and then you
Bill Stites 00:11:11
moved over to CIO, the idea of what's in a name, and Christina
Bill Stites 00:11:16
asked what all of our different responsibilities are. What was
Bill Stites 00:11:19
the reason for your decision, the impetus for you wanting to
Bill Stites 00:11:25
make that shift between the T and the i, and why did you see
Bill Stites 00:11:29
or think that that was important? Yeah, that's
Louis Tullo 00:11:32
a great question. And I think because I came from
Louis Tullo 00:11:34
a corporate space before, my understanding of what CTO versus
Louis Tullo 00:11:39
CIO might have been very different than what schools
Louis Tullo 00:11:42
we're familiar with. Typically, if you're working in a company
Louis Tullo 00:11:46
that builds technology products, like, if you want to take
Louis Tullo 00:11:49
stereotypes, think of a company like Apple or HP or Lenovo or
Louis Tullo 00:11:54
whatever, the person who's in that CTO role is really driving
Louis Tullo 00:11:58
the product forward, really thinking about I'm building this
Louis Tullo 00:12:02
solution, or coordinating the team of people that builds the
Louis Tullo 00:12:06
solution. It's kind of an odd title in independent schools,
Louis Tullo 00:12:10
because oftentimes we're not building platforms and software
Louis Tullo 00:12:15
unless there's some sort of proprietary ed tech startup that
Louis Tullo 00:12:18
lives inside of school. And anyway, that's besides the
Louis Tullo 00:12:20
point, but a CIO really has oversight over the flow of data
Louis Tullo 00:12:26
through a school, manages the IT service arm of an organization,
Louis Tullo 00:12:31
and really possesses a lot of breadth of responsibility, and
Louis Tullo 00:12:36
not necessarily the depth that I typically associated with a CTO
Louis Tullo 00:12:41
around software development and product
Bill Stites 00:12:44
and Matt, you went from a role as director to then
Bill Stites 00:12:48
Chief Information and innovation and now back to a role of
Bill Stites 00:12:52
director. What have those title shifts meant to you in terms of
Bill Stites 00:12:57
when you were applying for these different types of jobs. Did
Bill Stites 00:13:01
they carry any different emphasis or weight in your mind?
Bill Stites 00:13:05
And how did you make the decision to make that change?
Bill Stites 00:13:07
And are you looking to change that title, having had both in
Bill Stites 00:13:10
your background? Yeah, you
Matt Norko 00:13:12
know, I think it's like a really interesting
Matt Norko 00:13:14
situation with title, because at the end of the day, the work
Matt Norko 00:13:17
doesn't really change that much, right? But I think what I find,
Matt Norko 00:13:21
especially kind of going back to kristina's question earlier,
Matt Norko 00:13:23
like, as a director of technology, I have the core
Matt Norko 00:13:25
things that I'm responsible for, but technology is so much bigger
Matt Norko 00:13:29
than that, and so I'm liaising with all these departments, and
Matt Norko 00:13:32
spend most of my time with the HR department, in admissions and
Matt Norko 00:13:36
the business office, all these other spaces, as Louis said,
Matt Norko 00:13:39
where the data is flowing Back and forth, and those are the
Matt Norko 00:13:41
things that I'm doing all day. And so when you have a title
Matt Norko 00:13:45
like director of technology, I think it automatically puts into
Matt Norko 00:13:49
people's mind that you literally just do the things that plug in,
Matt Norko 00:13:53
and you don't necessarily have something to do with the flow of
Matt Norko 00:13:57
data or how things in your schools should be. And so I do
Matt Norko 00:14:01
actually think that having those titles, like a chief information
Matt Norko 00:14:05
officer or something of that nature, it gives a different
Matt Norko 00:14:09
perception to the work that we do, and it's a little bit more
Matt Norko 00:14:12
all encompassing than Director of Technology. Yeah, thank
Christina Lewellen 00:14:15
you for that. I think that makes sense.
Christina Lewellen 00:14:17
I mean, I made the same joke on a previous podcast when my title
Christina Lewellen 00:14:20
changed, it was simply benchmarking around other
Christina Lewellen 00:14:23
associations in the independent school space, but I still did
Christina Lewellen 00:14:27
the same work the next day. It really didn't change anything
Christina Lewellen 00:14:31
about the day to day. So I appreciate that perspective. All
Christina Lewellen 00:14:34
right. So I want to ask you guys about You've each gone through
Christina Lewellen 00:14:37
in the last couple of years a pretty significant job change,
Christina Lewellen 00:14:41
leadership transition. So one of the things I'd love to spend
Christina Lewellen 00:14:44
some time on is, how did you tackle that first school year?
Christina Lewellen 00:14:49
How did you go about managing that as a leader, and from a
Christina Lewellen 00:14:52
leadership perspective, the background and the context of
Christina Lewellen 00:14:56
the conversation and part of why we wanted to have you on the pod
Christina Lewellen 00:14:59
is that. When this year's data came out in the Atlas
Christina Lewellen 00:15:02
compensation report, we are seeing a surprisingly high
Christina Lewellen 00:15:07
number of respondents talking to us about a job change in the
Christina Lewellen 00:15:12
next two years. So I don't want to overstate it or be
Christina Lewellen 00:15:16
hyperbolic, but I do believe that we in our space are facing
Christina Lewellen 00:15:21
a wave of transitions. There are a lot of tech leaders who have
Christina Lewellen 00:15:26
some level of dissatisfaction at their current jobs and or
Christina Lewellen 00:15:31
they're looking for more opportunity at a different
Christina Lewellen 00:15:34
school. And so I think we're going to see a lot of job
Christina Lewellen 00:15:38
changes in the next couple years. So the main thing I
Christina Lewellen 00:15:41
really want to hit on with you guys is, how in the world did
Christina Lewellen 00:15:44
you do it? You each, I believe, had to do a move, physical move.
Christina Lewellen 00:15:49
And most tech leaders, when they take a new job, they have to
Christina Lewellen 00:15:51
change locations. Rarely are you taking a job down the street.
Christina Lewellen 00:15:55
You're generally moving to a different part of the country,
Christina Lewellen 00:15:58
starting with a brand new team in a brand new school culture.
Christina Lewellen 00:16:02
It has to be a bit overwhelming, so I'd love you to just sort of
Christina Lewellen 00:16:05
reflect on that a little bit and tell us a little bit about how
Matt Norko 00:16:08
you handled your first school year. This is the
Matt Norko 00:16:10
third new school that I've been at, actually, and Louis and I
Matt Norko 00:16:14
were talking one time a little bit earlier about the fact that
Matt Norko 00:16:17
I've never actually taken over for a previous director. I've
Matt Norko 00:16:20
filled roles where there hasn't been a director in each of the
Matt Norko 00:16:23
last three schools that I've been at, and that makes for that
Matt Norko 00:16:26
first year to be even more challenging, because there's no
Matt Norko 00:16:29
roadmap, there's no transition time, there's no nice handoff
Matt Norko 00:16:33
from one person to the next. And it's challenging, right? Because
Matt Norko 00:16:37
you're hopefully walking into a space where you have a team, and
Matt Norko 00:16:41
not just a department of one, but you have just your team
Matt Norko 00:16:45
dynamics to figure out. You have your school culture to figure
Matt Norko 00:16:47
out, then you have the actual bits of technology to figure
Matt Norko 00:16:51
out. And for me, one of the things that's been most
Matt Norko 00:16:54
important is figuring out where we are, whether or not there are
Matt Norko 00:16:57
any expectations for where we need to go, and to figure out
Matt Norko 00:17:01
whether or not there are opportunities to sort of quickly
Matt Norko 00:17:04
get us into the right place. And I think that's one of the most
Matt Norko 00:17:08
challenging things about coming into a school where there hasn't
Matt Norko 00:17:11
been a tech director, is that a lot of things have just been
Matt Norko 00:17:14
happening for the last couple of years without any sort of
Matt Norko 00:17:16
direction. And so for me, it's a lot about figuring out what that
Matt Norko 00:17:20
direction should be and then quickly actually making that
Matt Norko 00:17:23
happen. And I think the old adage is, don't change anything
Matt Norko 00:17:27
in your first year. And I have not followed that advice ever,
Matt Norko 00:17:31
unfortunately.
Louis Tullo 00:17:33
Well, I think a lot of things happen even when
Louis Tullo 00:17:35
you're in the same spot that I was in, taking over for people
Louis Tullo 00:17:39
who were previously in the role, I know, my first independent
Louis Tullo 00:17:42
school technology leadership role, there was a director who
Louis Tullo 00:17:46
had left and had sort of a study done by an MSP that was very
Louis Tullo 00:17:51
popular regionally. You know, a report outlining, oh, these
Louis Tullo 00:17:55
things really need to be taken care of. These are the
Louis Tullo 00:17:58
opportunities for growth and things that you have to
Louis Tullo 00:18:00
remediate. And so there was a pretty clear charge in my first
Louis Tullo 00:18:04
technology role about what were priorities, things to look at,
Louis Tullo 00:18:08
and things to look at specifically aimed at change.
Louis Tullo 00:18:12
Because often, when you're coming into a new school, you're
Louis Tullo 00:18:15
being hired not just as the expert in the space, but as a
Louis Tullo 00:18:19
change agent. I found that to be the case when I moved back to
Louis Tullo 00:18:23
the east coast from the West Coast back in 2021 right after
Louis Tullo 00:18:27
COVID. I know when the job that I had opened up, it was
Louis Tullo 00:18:31
legitimately my dream technology job. I had very low expectations
Louis Tullo 00:18:37
that I'd have the opportunity to have a role like this so early
Louis Tullo 00:18:40
in my career, and was really grateful that Jason Ramsden, one
Louis Tullo 00:18:45
of the key people who was seminal to Atlas at the
Louis Tullo 00:18:47
beginning, was available for transition calls prior to
Louis Tullo 00:18:51
starting. Really kept me clued into where the bodies were
Louis Tullo 00:18:55
buried and some of the personalities that I'd be facing
Louis Tullo 00:19:00
and projects that he would have loved to have taken on if he was
Louis Tullo 00:19:04
going to continue on. And so that first year was really about
Louis Tullo 00:19:09
taking the posture of a scientist studying the
Louis Tullo 00:19:12
landscape. Matt, I agree with you. I know that our out of
Louis Tullo 00:19:15
school at the time was very leery about me making change,
Louis Tullo 00:19:19
but I am so type A that once I see something, I can't unsee it.
Louis Tullo 00:19:25
And there were definitely some opportunities for change,
Louis Tullo 00:19:29
especially when it came to optimizing data and analytics,
Louis Tullo 00:19:32
that I just couldn't resist that first year. And I think even
Louis Tullo 00:19:35
with the transition to a new Head of School this past year
Louis Tullo 00:19:39
who has a very different perspective when it comes to
Louis Tullo 00:19:41
innovation and technology, there's been opportunities to
Louis Tullo 00:19:44
kind of go back to that same space that I was in my first
Louis Tullo 00:19:48
year at Ravenscroft, and again, be a scientist, but also
Louis Tullo 00:19:53
continue to be that change agent to drive the school forward to
Louis Tullo 00:19:56
where it needs to be.
Bill Stites 00:19:58
So one quick question for the both of you.
Bill Stites 00:20:00
You know, because you both have left a school to come into a new
Bill Stites 00:20:02
school. And Lewis, you mentioned Jason's willingness and ability
Bill Stites 00:20:06
to have those calls to work through those different things.
Bill Stites 00:20:08
And I think the joke is, is that, oh, it's a July 1 start
Bill Stites 00:20:11
date. The start date, at least I've seen in a lot, not that
Bill Stites 00:20:14
I've changed a lot, but you know, in talking to a lot of
Bill Stites 00:20:16
people, is the start date is really once you agree to start
Bill Stites 00:20:20
the job, but to the point it's a matter of trying to get up to
Bill Stites 00:20:23
speed, because trying to come into a job like this, where
Bill Stites 00:20:27
there is so much institutional knowledge, so much knowledge
Bill Stites 00:20:30
that may or may not necessarily be documented well coming into
Bill Stites 00:20:35
it, and that learning curve can be fairly steep when you're
Bill Stites 00:20:38
starting. So thinking about how that is managed, I think, is
Bill Stites 00:20:42
really important. So the question is actually for both of
Bill Stites 00:20:45
you, in terms of, what did you do in your previous jobs before
Bill Stites 00:20:50
leaving to set the person up that is following you for
Bill Stites 00:20:55
success, and then what did you do with the school or with the
Bill Stites 00:21:00
team or with the person for which you were coming in behind
Bill Stites 00:21:04
at your new school. What did you do to make sure that you were
Bill Stites 00:21:07
again set up for that same level of success that you would like
Bill Stites 00:21:11
to have left for the person following you?
Christina Lewellen 00:21:14
Yeah, is it like you kind of have to do two
Christina Lewellen 00:21:16
jobs for half of a school year? Or at least your brain has to be
Christina Lewellen 00:21:20
maybe in two places?
Matt Norko 00:21:22
Yeah, definitely. So when I just left my school in
Matt Norko 00:21:25
Massachusetts, I was lucky enough to have transition time
Matt Norko 00:21:29
with my replacement, and so we didn't have a ton of time. We
Matt Norko 00:21:32
had about a 10 day overlap. It allowed me time to sort of get
Matt Norko 00:21:36
things in place for him, have some time to work through things
Matt Norko 00:21:39
with him, get him set up for the coming school year, and then off
Matt Norko 00:21:42
I went, but he and I have still been in contact, and it's been
Matt Norko 00:21:46
six months. And so, I mean, that's something I would think
Matt Norko 00:21:49
is a professional courtesy, but also, just as a tech person like
Matt Norko 00:21:53
we know that the tech community is pretty communal, and so just
Matt Norko 00:21:57
being there for people, I think, is obviously really helpful, and
Matt Norko 00:22:01
that's definitely an aspect of things that that is helpful, as
Matt Norko 00:22:04
Lewis said, like reaching out to Jason, knowing that he knows
Matt Norko 00:22:06
certain things. Louis can text him today and it's been three
Matt Norko 00:22:09
years, but Jason will respond. On my end, coming into a job
Matt Norko 00:22:14
where there wasn't a person made that more difficult, as Lewis
Matt Norko 00:22:18
said, I was hired to be a change agent, like I was hired for my
Matt Norko 00:22:22
knowledge, for my ability to come in and just figure it out.
Matt Norko 00:22:25
And unfortunately, that is sometimes what you have to do.
Matt Norko 00:22:27
And for me, because I didn't have a tech person to be able to
Matt Norko 00:22:30
talk to, like, obviously I could talk to my tech team about the
Matt Norko 00:22:33
daily stuff, but that didn't necessarily help with the
Matt Norko 00:22:36
direction of technology at the school or bigger decisions that
Matt Norko 00:22:40
have been made. And so for me, it was just a lot of talking
Matt Norko 00:22:43
with people. Unfortunately, it wasn't always on the tech side,
Matt Norko 00:22:46
but it was every administrator on this campus. It was every
Matt Norko 00:22:49
consultant that I could do, reaching out to my local area
Matt Norko 00:22:52
like Jim is not too far away, so that's really helpful. And
Matt Norko 00:22:55
understanding the landscape of like this geographic area and
Matt Norko 00:22:58
like vendors that are available things like that. Obviously, if
Matt Norko 00:23:01
you have somebody that you can reach out to, that's always
Matt Norko 00:23:03
best, but you don't have to, like, you can make it work
Matt Norko 00:23:06
without actually doing that. And that is, I think, the reason why
Matt Norko 00:23:10
we do the work that we do. And Christina, you alluded earlier
Matt Norko 00:23:13
the T list, like, there's reasons why we're in the places
Matt Norko 00:23:16
that we're in, and so being able to just jump into a school and
Matt Norko 00:23:20
make it happen. That's why we're hired.
Louis Tullo 00:23:23
Yeah, I completely agree Matt, and I think when I
Louis Tullo 00:23:26
thought about helping Bobby, who's at Athenian, where I was
Louis Tullo 00:23:30
at prior to Ravenscroft transition, the thing that came
Louis Tullo 00:23:33
to mind first is schools operate on this calendar, and the thing
Louis Tullo 00:23:38
that could really make or break an IT leaders. Initial
Louis Tullo 00:23:44
impression at a school is the way that they're able to get the
Louis Tullo 00:23:47
plane off the ground at the beginning of a school year and
Louis Tullo 00:23:50
land it at the end, and so really providing good
Louis Tullo 00:23:54
documentation resources, talking through those unique pieces of
Louis Tullo 00:24:00
what they look like at a particular school in transition
Louis Tullo 00:24:03
meetings was something that I prioritized. And I think
Louis Tullo 00:24:06
thankfully, again, thinking about the T list and those
Louis Tullo 00:24:10
domains when I was in my prior role, up until the point that I
Louis Tullo 00:24:14
made the decision to leave, I had tried to instill a lot of
Louis Tullo 00:24:18
structure, documentation, things about it, operations and Ed
Louis Tullo 00:24:24
Tech. So that way, when I was handing things off to the person
Louis Tullo 00:24:28
who was taking my place, that they had a set of resources they
Louis Tullo 00:24:31
could very easily navigate. And I would say that Jason really
Louis Tullo 00:24:35
did the same for me coming into Ravenscroft, it was immensely
Louis Tullo 00:24:39
helpful. I think the key sort of getting to what Matt was saying
Louis Tullo 00:24:43
about organizations having that trust and a tech leader to drive
Louis Tullo 00:24:48
the ship when they come on board. If you are transitioning
Louis Tullo 00:24:51
someone, it's important to give them a heads up so they can be
Louis Tullo 00:24:55
successful, but not lead with that just because this is the
Louis Tullo 00:24:59
way things have. Always been done that you shouldn't broach
Louis Tullo 00:25:03
changing it. I think sometimes a less seasoned it leader can say,
Louis Tullo 00:25:08
Oh, I just need to continue the momentum of this train so it
Louis Tullo 00:25:12
keeps going. But the reality is, tech in schools is constantly
Louis Tullo 00:25:16
changing. COVID showed us that. AI is showing us that, and if we
Louis Tullo 00:25:20
continue to rely simply on the way things were done in the
Louis Tullo 00:25:23
past, and I don't have this willingness to change moving
Louis Tullo 00:25:25
forward, even if we're going into a new role in a new school,
Louis Tullo 00:25:29
then we're not serving our communities in the way that we
Louis Tullo 00:25:31
should be.
Christina Lewellen 00:25:33
So let's stop down on that, actually,
Christina Lewellen 00:25:34
Louis, because I think that that's where I was sort of
Christina Lewellen 00:25:37
heading next anyway. Is that okay? So year one, you are
Christina Lewellen 00:25:41
observing, you are learning from, hopefully, the person who
Christina Lewellen 00:25:45
had the job before you, and you're getting used to the
Christina Lewellen 00:25:49
dynamics at your new school. So school year one is kind of
Christina Lewellen 00:25:52
scientist mode, right? Cool. So how do you then begin to do
Christina Lewellen 00:25:57
exactly what you're talking about, which is you've observed
Christina Lewellen 00:26:00
for a year, and now you're going into your first summer leading
Christina Lewellen 00:26:04
into your second school year. How do you begin to start
Christina Lewellen 00:26:09
getting those change flywheels moving? To me, the
Louis Tullo 00:26:15
technology leader is only as good as the team that
Louis Tullo 00:26:20
is working for them. And so really taking a look at what
Louis Tullo 00:26:24
team members are doing on a day to day basis, balancing getting
Louis Tullo 00:26:29
in the weeds, not to micromanage people, but to build empathy,
Louis Tullo 00:26:33
and say like, Oh, our frontline help desk person is dealing with
Louis Tullo 00:26:38
X, Y and Z, how should their job description and responsibility
Louis Tullo 00:26:42
shift so that they're not just coming at supporting it from a
Louis Tullo 00:26:47
reactive place, but being proactive and strategic and
Louis Tullo 00:26:50
doing the same for all different roles in the team? You know that
Louis Tullo 00:26:54
means on the teaching side, observing people in class. How
Louis Tullo 00:26:57
are teachers using tech, those that are STEM faculty, and maybe
Louis Tullo 00:27:01
those who aren't. So that way you can say, Oh, we've had this
Louis Tullo 00:27:05
piece of AV going for a while, and these solutions in place,
Louis Tullo 00:27:10
but maybe we need to evolve, because it's limiting the
Louis Tullo 00:27:13
teaching in this way or that way. So finding that balance
Louis Tullo 00:27:16
between being very proximate to the community that you're
Louis Tullo 00:27:19
working with but also thinking at a high strategic level is
Louis Tullo 00:27:24
really important. I would say that's the first step.
Matt Norko 00:27:28
Yeah. And I also think one of the things that's
Matt Norko 00:27:30
particularly challenging about this work at a school,
Matt Norko 00:27:33
especially in your first year, is that, you know, a lot of
Matt Norko 00:27:36
this, to be clear, revolves around money. I can give you an
Matt Norko 00:27:39
example. I started here in August. Well, budget meeting
Matt Norko 00:27:42
started in November. So how much of a runway am I going to get
Matt Norko 00:27:45
before I need to have my plans done for next July? So I don't
Matt Norko 00:27:49
necessarily have the luxury of like, an entire school year
Matt Norko 00:27:52
waiting to observe because then it's another whole summer of not
Matt Norko 00:27:56
doing anything and then putting things in the budget for the
Matt Norko 00:27:59
following year. And so to Lewis's point, like observing
Matt Norko 00:28:04
what people are doing, where those pain points are, what some
Matt Norko 00:28:07
other people's priorities are, and trying to put either a
Matt Norko 00:28:11
return on ROI or a value on investment to the things that
Matt Norko 00:28:15
we're doing is really helpful. I'll give you an example, like
Matt Norko 00:28:18
for us, the phone system that we were using is just not right for
Matt Norko 00:28:22
us. Not that I wanted to change the phone system within my first
Matt Norko 00:28:26
year, but it just made a lot of sense for us to do it over
Matt Norko 00:28:28
spring break. And so the amount of return that we're going to
Matt Norko 00:28:32
see by doing that project over our spring break, which is eight
Matt Norko 00:28:35
months into my tenure here, is going to be immense, because the
Matt Norko 00:28:39
new system is going to allow us to do so much more stuff that we
Matt Norko 00:28:42
actually can do, and reduce a lot of those pain points. End up
Matt Norko 00:28:46
cheaper on the budget, a whole bunch of different things that
Matt Norko 00:28:49
are definitely just where we need to be, at that strategic
Matt Norko 00:28:52
level, that are just not currently there. It's
Matt Norko 00:28:56
interesting
Christina Lewellen 00:28:56
because it sounds like there's a little bit
Christina Lewellen 00:28:58
of a journey in all of this, and whether you're a couple years
Christina Lewellen 00:29:02
into your job, or like Bill, who's been around for several
Christina Lewellen 00:29:06
decades, there's always this kind of cyclical nature, because
Christina Lewellen 00:29:11
it's technology. It's not like you do a project once and then
Christina Lewellen 00:29:14
you ride it out for the next 25 years. I mean, often, even
Christina Lewellen 00:29:18
talking about phone systems, you know, if it was done five or six
Christina Lewellen 00:29:20
years ago. It probably needs to be looked at again. In any
Christina Lewellen 00:29:24
number of technology solutions always need that kind of
Christina Lewellen 00:29:26
evaluation. So it's cyclical like that.
Matt Norko 00:29:29
Not only that, I would also say, like some of the
Matt Norko 00:29:32
projects are so long in their implementation. So, you know, we
Matt Norko 00:29:35
have a blackboard renewal coming up, and we have to decide, do we
Matt Norko 00:29:39
want to stick with Blackboard are going to look at something
Matt Norko 00:29:41
else, and if we are going to look at something else, how much
Matt Norko 00:29:44
of runway do we actually need? Because we're all in on one
Matt Norko 00:29:47
product. So if we're going to look elsewhere, that's a 24
Matt Norko 00:29:50
month implementation from beginning to end. And so even
Matt Norko 00:29:54
just coming up with what contract you choose now to give
Matt Norko 00:29:57
yourself the ability to make a transition. Question Two years
Matt Norko 00:30:00
from now is something that you have to consider, and is like an
Matt Norko 00:30:04
important piece in figuring out, even in your first year. Matt,
Bill Stites 00:30:08
one quick question for you. So I find it very
Bill Stites 00:30:10
interesting. You know, you came into a program where you had
Bill Stites 00:30:13
there were staff there, but there wasn't leadership in place
Bill Stites 00:30:17
for that. Coming into that type of environment, what has it been
Bill Stites 00:30:21
like to try to re establish leadership in this area where
Bill Stites 00:30:27
there's been either the status quo or this vacuum of that for
Bill Stites 00:30:30
the time since you've been there so far?
Matt Norko 00:30:33
Yeah, it's really hard. Like it's not something
Matt Norko 00:30:36
that happens overnight. It's been, I think, two and a half
Matt Norko 00:30:38
years since there's been a person in my role, and in two
Matt Norko 00:30:42
and a half years, the culture of the organization can really
Matt Norko 00:30:44
shift. And so the immediate sort of things that I know are that
Matt Norko 00:30:50
my role is not necessarily regarded as like a thought
Matt Norko 00:30:52
partner automatically. It's not that people have anything
Matt Norko 00:30:55
against me, but because there hasn't been that person here,
Matt Norko 00:30:58
they're not coming to me and my role and being that thought
Matt Norko 00:31:00
partner before things show up. And so just last year, we had a
Matt Norko 00:31:05
couple of softwares that other departments just adopted, and
Matt Norko 00:31:09
they sort of showed up in August when I got here, and I'm like,
Matt Norko 00:31:12
How did nobody know about this? Like, and so that's a
Matt Norko 00:31:14
challenging thing to overcome that takes a lot of patience and
Matt Norko 00:31:18
a lot of thoughtful work and a lot of outreach on my part,
Matt Norko 00:31:23
again, because people aren't really used to it. So if I'm not
Matt Norko 00:31:27
inserting myself in certain conversations, I'm not going to
Matt Norko 00:31:30
be part of them. And then ultimately, we're the ones that
Matt Norko 00:31:33
are sort of left supporting that work. And so it's beneficial for
Matt Norko 00:31:36
the school, it's beneficial for me to make sure that I am
Matt Norko 00:31:39
inserting myself into any and all conversations that can
Matt Norko 00:31:42
happen. And
Bill Stites 00:31:43
Louis, to the flip of that, you were following
Bill Stites 00:31:46
someone who had a very large footprint, I think both probably
Bill Stites 00:31:50
at Raven, given the time and tenure, and the fact, you know,
Bill Stites 00:31:54
his wife was working there, and everything that went on at
Bill Stites 00:31:57
Atlas. So there were big shoes to fill, and there was, I think,
Bill Stites 00:32:01
a certain way in which things had been done, and a certain
Bill Stites 00:32:03
expectation for the way the rhythm and flow of things. I had
Bill Stites 00:32:06
the good fortune of actually being able to go out there for a
Bill Stites 00:32:09
site visit. So I got to see the school first hand, and what that
Bill Stites 00:32:12
was like, and see the immenseness of that. What was
Bill Stites 00:32:15
that like, following someone like that and either again,
Bill Stites 00:32:20
establishing yourself for who you are and your style of
Bill Stites 00:32:24
leadership. Yeah,
Louis Tullo 00:32:26
I would say that it was both a blessing and a curse
Louis Tullo 00:32:30
to be 100% transparent. I think because Jason had built such
Louis Tullo 00:32:36
good will amongst the community when a lot of people were very
Louis Tullo 00:32:40
satisfied with the way that things were from a technology
Louis Tullo 00:32:43
perspective. I think some people thought, Oh, well, Lewis is
Louis Tullo 00:32:48
going to come in, and he must be capable of doing this job, and
Louis Tullo 00:32:52
so he'll just continue what Jason was doing. And it was
Louis Tullo 00:32:57
interesting when there were points and I said, Well, I might
Louis Tullo 00:33:01
approach that a little bit differently and having to really
Louis Tullo 00:33:05
justify myself and making a change. I remember probably the
Louis Tullo 00:33:10
first time that I really had to do that was when I pitched an
Louis Tullo 00:33:15
all school registrar role. Previously there was a registrar
Louis Tullo 00:33:19
in the Upper School. They just took care of that. Scheduling
Louis Tullo 00:33:22
was done at the division level. And when our Upper School
Louis Tullo 00:33:27
registrar was retiring, I said, given the fact that we are in a
Louis Tullo 00:33:31
pre K through 12 institution and that the person who sits in the
Louis Tullo 00:33:35
seat manages so much key academic data for the school,
Louis Tullo 00:33:40
what are we losing by having this function just live within a
Louis Tullo 00:33:45
single division, rather than looking at our school as a
Louis Tullo 00:33:48
whole? And you had a variety of reactions, you know, Lower
Louis Tullo 00:33:51
School administrators who thought, oh my gosh, like we're
Louis Tullo 00:33:56
dealing with stuff in kid land all day long. Please take
Louis Tullo 00:34:00
registrar stuff from us. It's a welcome change. And then you had
Louis Tullo 00:34:04
people on the upper school side who are like, well, we're a
Louis Tullo 00:34:08
little bit different than the middle and the Lower School and
Louis Tullo 00:34:10
so we want to make sure that our needs are being met, and don't
Louis Tullo 00:34:14
want it diluted by having this person be responsible for
Louis Tullo 00:34:18
scheduling as a whole. But when it came down to it really having
Louis Tullo 00:34:22
conversations with people in different spaces and showing
Louis Tullo 00:34:25
them the fact that if we're going to really be data driven
Louis Tullo 00:34:28
our decision making, it starts with our key data, which is in
Louis Tullo 00:34:32
the academic side of the house, then this change has to happen.
Louis Tullo 00:34:35
That's just one example of places where I've had say, I see
Louis Tullo 00:34:40
things differently. Here's some data that is informing a
Louis Tullo 00:34:45
hypothesis that I have, if we make this change, I believe that
Louis Tullo 00:34:49
we will be able to whatever the end of that sentence is, and
Louis Tullo 00:34:53
really taking the time to not end change when, like the person
Louis Tullo 00:34:58
is hired or the. Equipment is bought and say no, I'm not gonna
Louis Tullo 00:35:03
just say, all right, things are great now I'm gonna carry things
Louis Tullo 00:35:07
through to the support stage, and as people are experiencing
Louis Tullo 00:35:10
the pains of dealing with change that I've made support them and
Louis Tullo 00:35:15
bring them along the way has been key in having my leadership
Louis Tullo 00:35:19
style be received, and hopefully the way that it's intended to be
Louis Tullo 00:35:23
received. I
Christina Lewellen 00:35:24
have a question for all three of you. I
Christina Lewellen 00:35:27
did mention earlier that we've got a lot of our peers who are
Christina Lewellen 00:35:31
considering a job change in the next two years. If a colleague
Christina Lewellen 00:35:35
in our space calls you and says, I'm thinking about changing
Christina Lewellen 00:35:39
jobs, how do I know if it's the right time? Do you have any
Christina Lewellen 00:35:42
advice or guidance or lenses through which they can make that
Christina Lewellen 00:35:46
decision?
Bill Stites 00:35:47
I will say I think it depends on where the position
Bill Stites 00:35:51
is, because you may know about the school like so if it's
Bill Stites 00:35:54
something that is going on in the area, if it's something that
Bill Stites 00:35:57
opens up regionally, you may have some personal experience
Bill Stites 00:36:01
there, or people that you may know that are at the school that
Bill Stites 00:36:04
you can reach out to. So I think those first hand or those first
Bill Stites 00:36:08
hand adjacent, I don't wanna say second, but those close ties
Bill Stites 00:36:10
that you may have with people that are either there or have
Bill Stites 00:36:13
interacted with them, that you can reach out into a trusted
Bill Stites 00:36:16
sense, I think, is incredibly important, because you'll also
Bill Stites 00:36:20
see the way in which those schools and those organizations
Bill Stites 00:36:24
interact, not only in their own space, but at the state level.
Bill Stites 00:36:29
So How involved are they, like for us in New Jersey, How
Bill Stites 00:36:31
involved are they at NJI s, do I see them participating? Do I see
Bill Stites 00:36:35
them out there? Are they involved? Atlas, are they
Bill Stites 00:36:38
involved in other areas? So to get a feel from that and
Bill Stites 00:36:42
understand what's going on there. The other thing that I
Bill Stites 00:36:45
always tell people to do is dig in on the website. And how much
Bill Stites 00:36:49
can you find on the website that either speaks to the mission and
Bill Stites 00:36:54
value of the schools? Because you want to make sure those are
Bill Stites 00:36:56
aligned, that you're in alignment with those things,
Bill Stites 00:36:58
more so than anything else. But the other thing, from an IT
Bill Stites 00:37:01
perspective, is, how well is it represented on their public
Bill Stites 00:37:05
facing website? Because I think that speaks a lot to what goes
Bill Stites 00:37:09
on there and what that might be like, and you're going to be
Bill Stites 00:37:13
able to get as much information as possible, kind of reconning
Bill Stites 00:37:17
those public areas, in those public spaces where that might
Bill Stites 00:37:21
be. And lastly, what I do with everyone, before we record the
Bill Stites 00:37:26
podcast or before I speak to everyone, stalk them online, see
Bill Stites 00:37:30
what's going on, via LinkedIn, via Twitter, who are the people
Bill Stites 00:37:35
there, who are the players there, and get an idea of what
Bill Stites 00:37:38
are they posting, what are they talking about, and equally as
Bill Stites 00:37:41
much, what aren't they saying? Or are they not saying anything
Bill Stites 00:37:45
at all, because then I think that tells a story as well. So
Bill Stites 00:37:48
those would be some of the areas where I think I would jump in. I
Matt Norko 00:37:52
think this is a really loaded question in many
Matt Norko 00:37:55
respects, because if you're talking about moving on for
Matt Norko 00:37:58
career progression, I think it's obviously a much more linear
Matt Norko 00:38:01
path. But again, this is my fourth school, and I've been
Matt Norko 00:38:05
through a few things. I think some of what Bill said was
Matt Norko 00:38:08
really key to me, right? Like, if you see the school's mission
Matt Norko 00:38:13
or culture not in alignment with your own, then that's a clear
Matt Norko 00:38:16
sign that it's probably time to start looking I think also, if
Matt Norko 00:38:22
you feel like you just need to put your head down and do your
Matt Norko 00:38:25
work and get through the day, that's probably not where you
Matt Norko 00:38:28
want to be. We all talk about the Independent Schools as being
Matt Norko 00:38:31
such a warm and welcoming community where we all feel
Matt Norko 00:38:34
appreciated and loved and known. And if you don't feel that way,
Matt Norko 00:38:39
then I think probably there's something missing there, and I
Matt Norko 00:38:42
know that's happened to me, where I like my job, but
Matt Norko 00:38:45
something is not right there. And so I've known that okay, as
Matt Norko 00:38:49
much as I like Job, I like the setting, I like the school, I
Matt Norko 00:38:52
like my colleagues, it's still not the right fit for me. And so
Matt Norko 00:38:55
it's time to move on, and I think that could be challenging,
Matt Norko 00:38:58
and particularly if there's any sort of acrimony or animosity,
Matt Norko 00:39:04
especially if you're serving on a leadership team, it might not
Matt Norko 00:39:06
be all cakes and roses. Luckily, I've not really been in that
Matt Norko 00:39:10
position, which is great. But leaving on good terms is
Matt Norko 00:39:13
certainly a good thing. But also knowing when is time to go is
Matt Norko 00:39:16
really important. And if there are a lot of jobs available,
Matt Norko 00:39:20
that's great. There is always one tech director at every
Matt Norko 00:39:23
school, right? There's not four options at every school. And so
Matt Norko 00:39:26
your options may be limited, and especially if you don't have the
Matt Norko 00:39:30
luxury of just up and moving to a different side of the country,
Matt Norko 00:39:32
which is a luxury. And so knowing when to look knowing
Matt Norko 00:39:37
when to leave, I think, are really important. But you know
Matt Norko 00:39:41
when it doesn't feel right, and that's when you need to look
Matt Norko 00:39:44
that's
Christina Lewellen 00:39:45
a really good distinction. The idea of
Christina Lewellen 00:39:47
career mapping and looking for advancement versus moving on
Christina Lewellen 00:39:50
because you're discontent, those are clearly two different
Christina Lewellen 00:39:53
things, and hopefully it's more about the next opportunity than
Christina Lewellen 00:39:58
it is about not being satisfied. Your current place, but things
Christina Lewellen 00:40:01
happen, and not every organization is the perfect fit
Christina Lewellen 00:40:04
for every leader. Yeah,
Louis Tullo 00:40:06
and I'm thinking like a lot about what Matt said
Louis Tullo 00:40:08
and both my own career journey, and then I feel fortunate in
Louis Tullo 00:40:14
that a lot of people in the Atlas community have reached
Louis Tullo 00:40:17
out, as they were like, considering new jobs and going
Louis Tullo 00:40:20
to new places and wanting to talk through the possibility of
Louis Tullo 00:40:24
change, and in some cases, if a friend trusts you to be
Louis Tullo 00:40:30
vulnerable and share that they're looking for a new job
Louis Tullo 00:40:33
and put themselves out there, especially in a community small
Louis Tullo 00:40:36
as ours, being a person to ask really thoughtful questions
Louis Tullo 00:40:40
about why they're looking to make a change and have them see
Louis Tullo 00:40:44
for themselves whether they're ready to make that change or
Louis Tullo 00:40:47
not. Is really important. There have been times where I maybe
Louis Tullo 00:40:51
had doubts whether someone was ready for a change, but it's not
Louis Tullo 00:40:55
my place to make that decision for them, but I knew as like a
Louis Tullo 00:40:58
friend and someone who cared for them, not as like a direct
Louis Tullo 00:41:01
colleague, but as somebody in my PLN that I was going to ask
Louis Tullo 00:41:05
questions so that hopefully, maybe they could reflect on
Louis Tullo 00:41:08
their own leadership journey prior to considering making a
Louis Tullo 00:41:11
change. I think that's really important, sort of connecting to
Louis Tullo 00:41:14
what Matt was saying. And then when it comes to applying to a
Louis Tullo 00:41:18
school, I think the first thing that you really need to see, and
Louis Tullo 00:41:22
that goes back more to what Bill was saying is that does the
Louis Tullo 00:41:26
school's identity, do their mission and values align with a
Louis Tullo 00:41:31
place that you want to be at? Because technology is part of
Louis Tullo 00:41:35
how a school functions, and if you don't see the way in which
Louis Tullo 00:41:40
your role as a technology leader connects to the mission and the
Louis Tullo 00:41:44
values and the vision of a school it's going to be not the
Louis Tullo 00:41:47
greatest place for you to work. The other thing that I learned
Louis Tullo 00:41:51
as I made my transition to my current role is that I want to
Louis Tullo 00:41:56
know everything I can about the person that I'm reporting to, so
Louis Tullo 00:42:00
whether the technology leader reports to a CFO or head of
Louis Tullo 00:42:04
school, you want to really get a sense of, Am I going to enjoy
Louis Tullo 00:42:09
working with this person? Do I get the sense that they'll care
Louis Tullo 00:42:12
about me as a professional and the ways in which I want to
Louis Tullo 00:42:16
grow? Are they going to be someone who has my back? Because
Louis Tullo 00:42:19
inevitably, in technology, things go wrong, and if you get
Louis Tullo 00:42:23
the sense during an interview that this person might throw you
Louis Tullo 00:42:27
under the bus when something bad happens, that could make a very
Louis Tullo 00:42:32
divisive working environment. So really, interviewing your
Louis Tullo 00:42:36
potential boss is just as important as the school
Louis Tullo 00:42:40
interviewing you, and then I think some people conflate being
Louis Tullo 00:42:44
a really good manager with being a leader, and that's sort of
Louis Tullo 00:42:47
what I was getting to at the beginning, when I just started
Louis Tullo 00:42:49
talking about being ready to assume a technology leadership
Louis Tullo 00:42:52
position or not. Management involves the way that you assign
Louis Tullo 00:42:57
people tasks and get projects from the start to the finish
Louis Tullo 00:43:00
line, but a really good leader has a strategic vision for where
Louis Tullo 00:43:05
things are going to be in the future. They're not only
Louis Tullo 00:43:08
managing the day to day, but they're saying 510, years from
Louis Tullo 00:43:11
now, I want to see our school operating in this space. And I
Louis Tullo 00:43:16
would say, honestly for me, that did not happen until I was in
Louis Tullo 00:43:21
the role that I was in currently, and I happened to be
Louis Tullo 00:43:24
reporting to a head of school who was super dynamic, Doreen
Louis Tullo 00:43:28
Kelly, who's retired this past year because she wasn't in the
Louis Tullo 00:43:33
weeds managing my role as a technologist. She was like, what
Louis Tullo 00:43:36
kind of leader do you want to be? And it forced me to ask
Louis Tullo 00:43:38
questions and do things in my department that I never thought
Louis Tullo 00:43:41
I would it's important
Christina Lewellen 00:43:44
because I think that as leaders in this
Christina Lewellen 00:43:46
space, we're acknowledging and part of why we're having this
Christina Lewellen 00:43:49
conversation is that it's certainly not getting easier.
Christina Lewellen 00:43:51
It's getting more complex. And I guess you could argue that all
Christina Lewellen 00:43:54
things get complex over time, but in particular, the role of
Christina Lewellen 00:43:58
the technology leader at schools, there's just a lot of
Christina Lewellen 00:44:01
things for which you're responsible. So how do you guys
Christina Lewellen 00:44:05
juggle that, whether you're new to your job or whether you've
Christina Lewellen 00:44:08
been there for a long time? What are some of the ways that you
Christina Lewellen 00:44:12
look for and find balance in terms of just all the
Christina Lewellen 00:44:15
conflicting priorities and people pulling you in a million
Christina Lewellen 00:44:19
directions?
Louis Tullo 00:44:21
Yeah, I was smiling because as a leadership team, we
Louis Tullo 00:44:24
recently read an article from Harvard Business for you, it's a
Louis Tullo 00:44:28
very old article about whose monkey is it when you're talking
Louis Tullo 00:44:32
about time management, and how sometimes people will come to
Louis Tullo 00:44:36
you they've got a monkey on your back. And our new head of
Louis Tullo 00:44:39
school, Derrick Willard, really did a great job of getting us to
Louis Tullo 00:44:43
think way more critically about different kinds of time, things
Louis Tullo 00:44:47
that are imposed by the system that you're in, things that are
Louis Tullo 00:44:49
imposed by your boss, and things that you have some autonomy over
Louis Tullo 00:44:53
as well. And so when I think about all the things that maybe
Louis Tullo 00:44:58
fall into other duties as a sign. And that appear on a job
Louis Tullo 00:45:01
description. For a technologist, the less autonomy you have on
Louis Tullo 00:45:05
your time, the harder it is to make those sort of strategic
Louis Tullo 00:45:09
moves. I mean, you think about something like AI and what it
Louis Tullo 00:45:13
means to integrate that into the technology program at your
Louis Tullo 00:45:17
school, both on the operational side and on the teaching and
Louis Tullo 00:45:20
learning side, you need to be able to sit down as a tech
Louis Tullo 00:45:24
leader, understand the landscape of tools the way people are
Louis Tullo 00:45:28
using them, how it impacts cyber security. And it's impossible to
Louis Tullo 00:45:33
do that if you're sitting in your office and people are
Louis Tullo 00:45:36
constantly wanting your help to run this report or fix this
Louis Tullo 00:45:41
issue. Back to the whole idea of time management and monkeys
Louis Tullo 00:45:45
really delegating things well to the members of your team, giving
Louis Tullo 00:45:49
them a sense of ownership of the work that they do, so that they
Louis Tullo 00:45:52
can support you, and your ability to function
Louis Tullo 00:45:54
strategically, I think, is very key, and it's hard to do that
Louis Tullo 00:45:59
when you're wired to want to fix things and get them off your
Louis Tullo 00:46:04
list quickly, but I think ultimately it's what helps you
Louis Tullo 00:46:07
to be a really great leader. Yeah,
Matt Norko 00:46:10
to Lewis's point earlier, like I think there's a
Matt Norko 00:46:12
fair number of tech folks who are happy being good managers,
Matt Norko 00:46:16
good tech managers, and not necessarily good tech leaders.
Matt Norko 00:46:19
And I know of colleagues who are in similar positions and their
Matt Norko 00:46:23
schools are not really pushing forward, and we don't really
Matt Norko 00:46:26
have the luxury of not pushing forward right. Whether it's a
Matt Norko 00:46:28
cyber security threat or AI is coming on, whatever there might
Matt Norko 00:46:32
be, you have to be operating in that strategic space. I
Matt Norko 00:46:37
definitely see how being somebody with, like, boots on
Matt Norko 00:46:41
the ground, understanding what's going on in the day to day will
Matt Norko 00:46:43
help you figure out just how to manage tasks well. But I think
Matt Norko 00:46:46
that also lets you identify, like, where there can be
Matt Norko 00:46:50
efficiencies, how life can be a little bit better, where are
Matt Norko 00:46:52
there possible risks, and how can you mitigate those? And then
Matt Norko 00:46:56
keeping all of that in mind while you're also thinking
Matt Norko 00:46:59
about, as Louis said, like, where do you want to be in five
Matt Norko 00:47:01
years? Like, you can't just get there. What do you need to do
Matt Norko 00:47:05
today in order to get to where you are 510, years from now? And
Matt Norko 00:47:09
certainly for me, like a huge piece is just keeping up with
Matt Norko 00:47:13
everything. It is so easy to just put that off and just not
Matt Norko 00:47:17
do it, because there are so many things happening in the day to
Matt Norko 00:47:20
day, to day, whether or not it's running a report or fixing a
Matt Norko 00:47:22
switch or doing something, but if you don't keep up with all
Matt Norko 00:47:26
the stuff that's going on, you're never going to be able to
Matt Norko 00:47:29
devote enough time to figuring out where you need to be. And
Matt Norko 00:47:33
for us, that's like the most important thing is evolving with
Matt Norko 00:47:37
everything that's happening, and making sure that our schools are
Matt Norko 00:47:41
prepared to do that. That is the whole point of Atlas, right?
Matt Norko 00:47:44
Making sure that our schools are prepared to do all this stuff.
Matt Norko 00:47:48
And if we're not doing our part, whether or not that's going to
Matt Norko 00:47:51
conferences or just keeping updated with our PL ends, we're
Matt Norko 00:47:55
not able to do that, and then we're doing a disservice to our
Matt Norko 00:47:57
schools 100%
Bill Stites 00:48:00
it's the team, and it's a leadership style. You've
Bill Stites 00:48:02
got to successfully develop your team. You've got to prioritize
Bill Stites 00:48:05
the work that they're doing. Lewis, you mentioned earlier,
Bill Stites 00:48:08
you know you're not micromanaging, you're not
Bill Stites 00:48:10
sitting there on top of them. You delegate, and then you lead,
Bill Stites 00:48:13
and it depends on the leadership style that you choose, and can
Bill Stites 00:48:17
see that in yourself, and know who you are as best as possible,
Bill Stites 00:48:21
and then know who you have under you that is working with you. I
Bill Stites 00:48:24
shouldn't even say under you working with you, because it is
Bill Stites 00:48:26
that team approach. And then moving forward, because Matt,
Bill Stites 00:48:30
you said it, there's so much that goes on in the day to day.
Bill Stites 00:48:34
There's so many pieces that we're sitting there struggling
Bill Stites 00:48:37
with that could just consume us in the day to day that we would
Bill Stites 00:48:41
never get to that visioning piece, if not. I also think the
Bill Stites 00:48:45
visioning piece, and Matt, you mentioned this, being seen as
Bill Stites 00:48:48
that thought partner, getting into those conversations, making
Bill Stites 00:48:52
sure that you're involved, I think, is really helpful. And I
Bill Stites 00:48:56
think if you're starting a new position, figuring out how to be
Bill Stites 00:49:00
invited to those or maybe even crash those conversations in a
Bill Stites 00:49:05
respectful sense, I think, is important. And part of all what
Bill Stites 00:49:08
we need to be thinking about when we make those types of
Bill Stites 00:49:11
changes, or when we're in our current place for 31 years, and
Bill Stites 00:49:14
we need to keep those conversations going absolutely
Christina Lewellen 00:49:18
so before we run out of time with you guys
Christina Lewellen 00:49:21
today, the last thing I would really love to spend a brief
Christina Lewellen 00:49:24
moment on is the role of the T list so the technology leader in
Christina Lewellen 00:49:29
independent school certification, all three of you
Christina Lewellen 00:49:32
were instrumental in helping this program get up and running.
Christina Lewellen 00:49:36
If there are folks in our space who aspire to be a CIO or a
Christina Lewellen 00:49:42
technology director at a larger school, really kind of looking
Christina Lewellen 00:49:45
to map out their career and take those next steps. Can you help
Christina Lewellen 00:49:49
us understand how the T list can help in these types of career
Christina Lewellen 00:49:53
transitions? I was having a conversation
Matt Norko 00:49:55
with the head of school who was hiring for a tech
Matt Norko 00:49:57
physician. He had an English. Background, and said, if this
Matt Norko 00:50:01
was an English position, I would know what to look for, but it's
Matt Norko 00:50:04
a tech position, I just don't know what to look for. Then I
Matt Norko 00:50:06
started to explain what the T list was, but I'm hiring right
Matt Norko 00:50:09
now for a position on our team, a network and Systems
Matt Norko 00:50:13
Specialist. And you know, there are certain things that I want
Matt Norko 00:50:16
to see in the resume. There are certain like keywords that I
Matt Norko 00:50:18
would love to see. And some of them have them. Some of them
Matt Norko 00:50:21
don't have them. And when I think about the T list in terms
Matt Norko 00:50:25
of going for tech positions, like if I saw T lists, I would
Matt Norko 00:50:29
know that they have an understanding of certain things.
Matt Norko 00:50:32
So I don't necessarily need to see every single keyword in that
Matt Norko 00:50:35
resume. Just by them having that certification, I know that they
Matt Norko 00:50:39
have exposure, depth of knowledge, and just a logical
Matt Norko 00:50:43
understanding of all these different domains that are
Matt Norko 00:50:46
covered in the T list. So I don't have to worry as much
Matt Norko 00:50:49
whether or not they have five extra years of job experience
Matt Norko 00:50:53
that has all these bullet points. I know that they contain
Matt Norko 00:50:55
that knowledge and are ready for a leadership position.
Louis Tullo 00:50:59
Yeah, one of the things that I think is the most
Louis Tullo 00:51:02
powerful differentiators of the T list is the fact that it gives
Louis Tullo 00:51:05
you real insight into the way a technology leader thinks. And I
Louis Tullo 00:51:10
know that as we were in the process of developing the
Louis Tullo 00:51:13
certification, I was in the middle of like a master's
Louis Tullo 00:51:16
program at the same time, and when I think about some of the
Louis Tullo 00:51:21
questions that we developed in the way that we approach this
Louis Tullo 00:51:23
test, the level of intentionality around assessing
Louis Tullo 00:51:28
somebody's thought process when they're confronted with a
Louis Tullo 00:51:31
particular scenario in using their IT knowledge and that
Louis Tullo 00:51:35
leading to what is the correct answer on the exam stood out to
Louis Tullo 00:51:39
me. So clearly, I just thought to myself so many times, this is
Louis Tullo 00:51:43
something that is at the level of master's level work, or
Louis Tullo 00:51:48
something beyond it, because you can teach somebody how to create
Louis Tullo 00:51:52
a network or manage systems or do AV work, or, you know, all
Louis Tullo 00:51:58
the technical things that go into our job, but applying that
Louis Tullo 00:52:01
knowledge in a way that's going to drive things forward is
Louis Tullo 00:52:04
something entirely different. So when you think that the whole
Louis Tullo 00:52:07
certification is aimed at endorsing people for leadership,
Louis Tullo 00:52:11
yes, like Matt said, it's assumed that you know how to do
Louis Tullo 00:52:15
X, Y and Z things, but those four letters say, not only do
Louis Tullo 00:52:20
you know those things, but you can apply that knowledge in an
Louis Tullo 00:52:23
independent school environment. And I think that's
Christina Lewellen 00:52:26
crucial, and that's really where we started
Christina Lewellen 00:52:30
the T list journey was that you weren't going to be able to
Christina Lewellen 00:52:34
memorize answers out of a book and take this exam. It was very
Christina Lewellen 00:52:37
scenario based and very leadership based. So that's why
Christina Lewellen 00:52:40
I wanted to hit on that briefly, because I think that if a person
Christina Lewellen 00:52:45
is an aspiring CIO or technology director, studying for that exam
Christina Lewellen 00:52:50
might be a little bit harder, because you really do need the
Christina Lewellen 00:52:52
experience to be able to apply your expertise in certain
Christina Lewellen 00:52:55
scenarios, but it also can prepare You to possibly step
Christina Lewellen 00:53:00
into these really complicated leadership roles. So yeah, I
Christina Lewellen 00:53:04
appreciate your reflection on that, and what I hear a lot from
Christina Lewellen 00:53:07
our first generation tech leaders is, man, if that had
Christina Lewellen 00:53:11
been around 20 years ago, that would have been really useful.
Christina Lewellen 00:53:14
But really, technology does change a lot. So we can't just
Christina Lewellen 00:53:17
teach technology. We have to teach the leadership skills
Christina Lewellen 00:53:20
around how to make decisions about technology from that
Christina Lewellen 00:53:24
strategic lens, which is really hard, but also really important.
Christina Lewellen 00:53:28
Okay, so before we let you guys off the hook, this has been so
Christina Lewellen 00:53:33
incredibly helpful, I want to thank you both for sharing your
Christina Lewellen 00:53:37
perspective. I know that changing jobs is always a pretty
Christina Lewellen 00:53:40
complicated decision, and starting a new job is quite a
Christina Lewellen 00:53:45
lift. So I appreciate you guys bringing some of your
Christina Lewellen 00:53:49
experiences to the podcast and sharing them with our audience.
Christina Lewellen 00:53:52
I'm sure that you help many, many more people than you
Christina Lewellen 00:53:55
realize, who might be kicking some of these thoughts around.
Christina Lewellen 00:53:58
So thank you very much for that. Before we let you go, I would
Christina Lewellen 00:54:02
love to just ask you briefly, what is the thing you're
Christina Lewellen 00:54:05
thinking about today at school, as you're wrapping up this
Christina Lewellen 00:54:09
school year, what are some of the big picture things that you
Christina Lewellen 00:54:11
guys are wrestling at your schools? For me,
Matt Norko 00:54:14
it's definitely AI. Is just something that we talked
Matt Norko 00:54:17
about at our professional growth day. And I think the question
Matt Norko 00:54:21
that we left on is with the use of AI, what could we get to that
Matt Norko 00:54:27
we're not currently getting to? And I think that's a really
Matt Norko 00:54:30
great thing for us to think about, especially when we're
Matt Norko 00:54:34
talking about it in terms of teaching and learning. And are
Matt Norko 00:54:37
you offloading skills that need to be taught versus not using
Matt Norko 00:54:40
AI, but where could AI get us that we just can't get to right
Matt Norko 00:54:45
now, I think there's a great conversation to have, and
Matt Norko 00:54:49
certainly as a tech leader in an independent school, it's not
Matt Norko 00:54:53
only very timely, but I think we have to have that conversation.
Matt Norko 00:54:57
I
Louis Tullo 00:54:57
definitely would echo what Matt is saying about
Louis Tullo 00:54:59
a. AI, but probably on an even larger scope, I think this year,
Louis Tullo 00:55:04
having gotten to teach an entrepreneurship class for the
Louis Tullo 00:55:07
first time, and seeing all the ways that the value proposition
Louis Tullo 00:55:12
of independent schools is changing in terms of the
Louis Tullo 00:55:15
modality in which schooling is offered, I'm starting to think
Louis Tullo 00:55:19
what ways can technology, including AI, help us to flip
Louis Tullo 00:55:25
the system on its head and maybe offer school in a different way
Louis Tullo 00:55:30
that shows that independent schools can offer something to
Louis Tullo 00:55:35
students for teaching and learning that's dynamic and
Louis Tullo 00:55:37
thriving and that will continue to be relevant in the next 10
Louis Tullo 00:55:41
years. And I know that might sound obtuse, but I think it's
Louis Tullo 00:55:45
because it's the confluence of all these things like blended
Louis Tullo 00:55:48
learning, meets AI meets experiential Ed that's more
Louis Tullo 00:55:53
career focused, as opposed to just getting kids ready for
Louis Tullo 00:55:56
college. And so beginning to wrap my head around that is what
Louis Tullo 00:56:00
I'm thinking about. I love
Christina Lewellen 00:56:02
that you guys are the big brains. Thank
Christina Lewellen 00:56:05
you so much for spending this time with us. It's been such a
Christina Lewellen 00:56:08
pleasure. You really were the perfect folks to have this
Christina Lewellen 00:56:10
conversation. So thank you so much for joining us, and I look
Christina Lewellen 00:56:13
forward to seeing you soon in person.
Peter Frank 00:56:17
This has been Talking Technology with ATLIS,
Peter Frank 00:56:20
produced by the Association of Technology Leaders in
Peter Frank 00:56:22
Independent Schools. For more information about Atlas and
Peter Frank 00:56:26
Atlas membership, please visit the atlas.org if you enjoyed
Peter Frank 00:56:30
this discussion, please subscribe, leave a review and
Peter Frank 00:56:33
share this podcast with your colleagues in the independent
Peter Frank 00:56:36
school community. Thank you for listening. You