Tech Leadership and Change Agency in Independent Schools

Peter Frank 00:00:02
Phil, welcome to Talking Technology with ATLIS,

Peter Frank 00:00:05
the show that plugs you into the important topics and trends for

Peter Frank 00:00:08
technology leaders all through a unique Independent School lens.

Peter Frank 00:00:12
We'll hear stories from technology directors and other

Peter Frank 00:00:15
special guests from the Independent School community,

Peter Frank 00:00:17
and provide you with focused learning and deep dive topics.

Peter Frank 00:00:21
And now please welcome your host. Kristina Lewellen,

Christina Lewellen 00:00:25
Hello everyone, and welcome back to

Christina Lewellen 00:00:27
talking technology with Atlas. I'm Kristina Lewellen, the

Christina Lewellen 00:00:30
President and CEO of the Association of Technology

Christina Lewellen 00:00:33
Leaders in Independent

Bill Stites 00:00:34
Schools. And I am Bill Stites, the Director of

Bill Stites 00:00:37
Technology at Montclair Kimberly Academy in Montclair, New

Bill Stites 00:00:40
Jersey. Hello, Bill. How are you today? I'm freezing today. It's

Bill Stites 00:00:45
cold. It is

Christina Lewellen 00:00:47
cold. I mean, you are in New Jersey.

Christina Lewellen 00:00:49
It's always cold in New Jersey. Well, we're just

Bill Stites 00:00:51
cold people, maybe. But I mean, in general, it is

Bill Stites 00:00:56
cold outside and it's windy and it cuts right through you to the

Bill Stites 00:01:00
bone,

Christina Lewellen 00:01:01
it really does. I am in Atlanta today, and

Christina Lewellen 00:01:04
I am doing the final visit of our property in terms of our

Christina Lewellen 00:01:07
planning for the annual conference. And I'm getting

Christina Lewellen 00:01:09
excited, like I'm walking through the space, and I can

Christina Lewellen 00:01:12
kind of feel the energy of the Atlas people being with us. And

Christina Lewellen 00:01:16
I'm getting real excited about annual conference.

Bill Stites 00:01:19
I'm very much looking forward to that we have

Bill Stites 00:01:21
a large contingent coming down. It's going to be something that

Bill Stites 00:01:25
we're very excited for, and can't wait to see everyone that

Bill Stites 00:01:28
goes this year. It's always my highlight of the year.

Christina Lewellen 00:01:30
So I almost hate to say this, but on my way

Christina Lewellen 00:01:34
out the door this week, one of my daughters was home, and my

Christina Lewellen 00:01:38
husband and we were talking about the fact that I'm coming

Christina Lewellen 00:01:40
down to Atlanta, and I was talking about the fact that you

Christina Lewellen 00:01:43
and Hiram are constantly on me about this whole zombie thing,

Christina Lewellen 00:01:47
so they saw fit to turn on the first episode of Walking Dead.

Christina Lewellen 00:01:53
And I will admit that it kind of sucked me in. I still don't know

Christina Lewellen 00:01:57
what's happening. They would lean over and be like, This is

Christina Lewellen 00:02:00
how you kill them, right? And it's very graphic, so I'm not

Christina Lewellen 00:02:02
sure if I recommend this or not, and I'm not sure if I'll watch

Christina Lewellen 00:02:05
episode two, but I did watch one. So yay, yay, yay. You.

Christina Lewellen 00:02:11
Okay, yeah,

Bill Stites 00:02:12
you. It's about the human stories. It's about the

Bill Stites 00:02:15
drama that I really like. It has nothing to do with the genre

Bill Stites 00:02:18
whatsoever. It's a drama based series that I think has

Bill Stites 00:02:22
excellent acting and directing, and it's well worth watching.

Bill Stites 00:02:26
The zombies just are out at bonuses.

Christina Lewellen 00:02:28
Bonuses, they're disgusting, all right.

Christina Lewellen 00:02:31
Well, that's all I got for the intro. So there you go. Oh, but

Christina Lewellen 00:02:36
we are in Atlanta and looking forward to our conference

Christina Lewellen 00:02:38
registration is going really well. Our vendor community so

Christina Lewellen 00:02:41
supportive as always. So we're really looking forward to it.

Christina Lewellen 00:02:44
Two faces. I am certain we'll be walking those halls. We welcome

Christina Lewellen 00:02:48
to the pod today. Louis to low, who is the Chief Information

Christina Lewellen 00:02:51
Officer at Ravenscroft school, and I also have with us, Matt

Christina Lewellen 00:02:54
Norco, the Director of Technology at Mar rural school.

Christina Lewellen 00:02:58
Guys, thank you so much for joining us on the pod. Glad to

Christina Lewellen 00:03:00
have you both here. Awesome

Louis Tullo 00:03:02
to be here. Excited to chat with you all. And Matt,

Louis Tullo 00:03:06
yep, it's great to be here. Thanks for having us.

Christina Lewellen 00:03:08
So part of why we wanted to bring you in,

Christina Lewellen 00:03:10
you guys, is that both of you have made some interesting moves

Christina Lewellen 00:03:14
in your career. We talk a lot on the podcast about the fact that

Christina Lewellen 00:03:19
the first generation tech leaders at independent schools

Christina Lewellen 00:03:22
are starting to look toward the end of their careers. You know,

Christina Lewellen 00:03:25
they might not be stepping out quite yet. They might not be

Christina Lewellen 00:03:27
retiring quite yet, but with that phase of their careers kind

Christina Lewellen 00:03:32
of firmly in their sites, they're starting to have

Christina Lewellen 00:03:35
conversations around succession planning, business continuity

Christina Lewellen 00:03:38
planning, and I know that both of you gentlemen have made some

Christina Lewellen 00:03:42
pretty impressive leaps in the last couple years, so I really

Christina Lewellen 00:03:45
wanted to talk to you a little bit about how you thought about

Christina Lewellen 00:03:47
that and what your leadership styles are like now that you're

Christina Lewellen 00:03:50
in these top leadership positions for your schools. But

Christina Lewellen 00:03:53
before we walk that path together, I'll give you guys

Christina Lewellen 00:03:56
just a second to introduce yourselves and tell us a little

Christina Lewellen 00:03:59
bit about your background, Louis, we'll go to you first.

Louis Tullo 00:04:03
Yeah, I've been working in it now for over 15

Louis Tullo 00:04:06
years, which is kind of crazy to think about that, because

Louis Tullo 00:04:10
originally graduated with my bachelor's degree in theater, so

Louis Tullo 00:04:13
I thought my life was going to turn out much more differently

Louis Tullo 00:04:16
than it has.

Christina Lewellen 00:04:17
Now this is something that we have in

Christina Lewellen 00:04:19
common, Louis, is that I'm a theater geek as well. I mean,

Christina Lewellen 00:04:23
probably not as bad as you are, but we haven't even talked

Christina Lewellen 00:04:25
wicked. That's where we should have started this conversation,

Christina Lewellen 00:04:28
not with zombies, but with wicked. Yes.

Louis Tullo 00:04:31
And I feel like I've done my job as a theater

Louis Tullo 00:04:34
parent by converting my oldest to be completely obsessed with

Louis Tullo 00:04:38
defying gravity. And I think we've together, watched the

Louis Tullo 00:04:41
movie and maybe four or five times at home. Love it honestly,

Louis Tullo 00:04:45
working in it started out as I'm auditioning in New York, and

Louis Tullo 00:04:49
rather than working in food service, I'm going to work at

Louis Tullo 00:04:52
the help desk, because that's what I did during college. And

Louis Tullo 00:04:54
then as things slowly progressed, realized how much I

Louis Tullo 00:04:58
enjoyed the fact that. That technology is constantly

Louis Tullo 00:05:01
changing. It was an opportunity to connect with people in a way

Louis Tullo 00:05:04
that I enjoyed doing so because of my theater background, and

Louis Tullo 00:05:09
gratefully had some people along the way who saw leadership

Louis Tullo 00:05:12
potential in me and gave me a shot, even though my background

Louis Tullo 00:05:16
maybe made me the least likely candidate to be an IT leader and

Louis Tullo 00:05:20
really found my calling in independent schools. So

Christina Lewellen 00:05:23
you've always been on the tech side

Christina Lewellen 00:05:25
rather than the teaching side, which is kind of unusual among

Christina Lewellen 00:05:28
your peers.

Louis Tullo 00:05:29
Yeah. And interestingly enough, my first

Louis Tullo 00:05:32
tech job in an independent school, my title was the

Louis Tullo 00:05:35
Director of Educational Technology. In an interview

Louis Tullo 00:05:38
process, I had to basically prepare a TED style talk for a

Louis Tullo 00:05:43
group of faculty and a technology initiative I wanted

Louis Tullo 00:05:46
to lead. And I thought to myself, all right, let me just

Louis Tullo 00:05:49
reflect on what impacted me the most as a student. Take my tech

Louis Tullo 00:05:54
background, try to merge those two things together, obviously,

Louis Tullo 00:05:58
with the theater kid energy into the space, and it was really

Louis Tullo 00:06:03
exhilarating. So it's been an awesome opportunity getting to

Louis Tullo 00:06:07
apply those tech things in the school space. Awesome.

Christina Lewellen 00:06:11
And Matt, you most recently had been out

Christina Lewellen 00:06:13
here in the cold on the East Coast, like Bill, and now you

Christina Lewellen 00:06:17
are out in sunny California. So tell us a little bit about your

Christina Lewellen 00:06:20
journey?

Matt Norko 00:06:21
Yeah, absolutely. I think listening to Lewis, I

Matt Norko 00:06:24
realized that my journey is probably the exact opposite,

Matt Norko 00:06:27
literally in every respect. So I have a bachelor's in Business

Matt Norko 00:06:30
and Information Systems, and just happened to see a job

Matt Norko 00:06:34
posting for a tech role at a school from the newspaper. I

Matt Norko 00:06:39
applied for this job back when it was a newspaper ad. And so

Matt Norko 00:06:41
they were really little, it didn't have a lot. And I

Matt Norko 00:06:44
remember going through the phone interviews and going for an on

Matt Norko 00:06:48
site visit as a finalist, getting to the second interview

Matt Norko 00:06:51
of the day with the division head and the assistant head at

Matt Norko 00:06:53
the time. And they said, How do you feel about the teaching

Matt Norko 00:06:56
part? And I'm like, How did nobody mention this yet? So I

Matt Norko 00:06:59
sort of fell into a working at a school and then teaching, by

Matt Norko 00:07:04
sure happenstance, and wound up teaching middle school and doing

Matt Norko 00:07:09
academic tech integration work for 14 years. And I think for

Matt Norko 00:07:14
me, it was more I was doing this work for a really long time, and

Matt Norko 00:07:19
realized along the way, that rather than just be doing this

Matt Norko 00:07:22
work, I wanted to help lead this work, and that's what led me to

Matt Norko 00:07:26
go get a Master, is continue, sort of my academic journey, and

Matt Norko 00:07:30
then ultimately transition from that school to other schools.

Matt Norko 00:07:33
And now here, as you said, out in sunny California,

Christina Lewellen 00:07:37
awesome. So one of the things I want to do

Christina Lewellen 00:07:39
before we move into some of the reasons that we invited you here

Christina Lewellen 00:07:44
is I've come to understand that different roles are called

Christina Lewellen 00:07:49
different things at different schools. And so if I could ask

Christina Lewellen 00:07:54
you to please describe what you are responsible for as the Chief

Christina Lewellen 00:07:59
Information Officer at Ravenscroft, and then, of

Christina Lewellen 00:08:02
course, we'll go to Matt. But every tech leader, the duties as

Christina Lewellen 00:08:07
assigned is a little different for every school. So can you

Christina Lewellen 00:08:11
describe for me, Lewis, what you're responsible for at your

Christina Lewellen 00:08:14
school? In

Louis Tullo 00:08:15
my role right now, I am in charge of the IT side of

Louis Tullo 00:08:19
the house, which we call technical services so your rank

Louis Tullo 00:08:22
and file, help desk, techs and support personnel who are

Louis Tullo 00:08:27
awesome. I love my team. In addition, library services

Louis Tullo 00:08:30
currently falls under my purview, although that's

Louis Tullo 00:08:33
actually changing next year, with our Associate Head of

Louis Tullo 00:08:36
Academic Affairs coming on board, and that falling under

Louis Tullo 00:08:39
her, the registrar is a position, and all school

Louis Tullo 00:08:43
registrar is one that I brought under my purview a couple of

Louis Tullo 00:08:46
years ago and will remain here for now. In addition, our

Louis Tullo 00:08:50
director of Ed Tech and all of our STEM plus faculty fall

Louis Tullo 00:08:54
underneath my purview as well.

Christina Lewellen 00:08:56
How about you, Matt, what does Director of

Christina Lewellen 00:08:58
Technology mean to your school at Marlboro? Yeah,

Matt Norko 00:09:00
so Mar rural is a little similar to Lewis's. So I

Matt Norko 00:09:04
like to say everything that plugs in falls under tech here.

Matt Norko 00:09:07
That means both the operational side of the tech house, the

Matt Norko 00:09:11
educational side of the tech house, and then registrar,

Matt Norko 00:09:15
mostly those pieces. This is like my fourth school, and so

Matt Norko 00:09:19
that has looked so different at those different schools. It is

Matt Norko 00:09:22
interesting to see how it plays out in different places. That's

Christina Lewellen 00:09:25
exactly why I asked, because it's different

Christina Lewellen 00:09:27
even for Bill and Hiram, just getting a sense of who's in

Christina Lewellen 00:09:30
charge of what. All right, so my last question, and then I'll let

Christina Lewellen 00:09:33
Bill jump in, is in terms of setting the groundwork. Tell us

Christina Lewellen 00:09:37
a little bit about the nature of your schools. You both work at

Christina Lewellen 00:09:41
fairly prominent schools, so a lot of folks probably know, but

Christina Lewellen 00:09:44
like, what's the size of your team and what's your student

Christina Lewellen 00:09:48
body look like? Ravenscroft,

Louis Tullo 00:09:50
it's a day school, pre K through 12th grade, and we

Louis Tullo 00:09:53
have about 12 150 students, give or take, depending on the point

Louis Tullo 00:09:56
of the year that we're in. We are on a really large campus.

Louis Tullo 00:10:00
Yes, it's 135 acres, 13 buildings. So there are a lot of

Louis Tullo 00:10:05
things that connect and have wires, as Matt alluded to

Louis Tullo 00:10:09
before, when he was talking about his role and the size of

Louis Tullo 00:10:12
our team. We have about five FTEs on the IT side of the

Louis Tullo 00:10:16
house, including myself, because I really put myself as like a co

Louis Tullo 00:10:20
FTE, with all the different parts of my team, we have about

Louis Tullo 00:10:24
five STEM faculty, registrars, Department of one. And the

Louis Tullo 00:10:29
library services team is a department of five as well.

Louis Tullo 00:10:34
We're

Matt Norko 00:10:35
a department of five as well. We're a day school.

Matt Norko 00:10:38
We're a seventh through 12th grade girls school with 530

Matt Norko 00:10:42
students. We're an urban school, so we have, like, I don't know,

Matt Norko 00:10:45
two acre campus, very compact. Everything's really squished

Matt Norko 00:10:49
together, but a good FTE to student ratio on the tech side.

Matt Norko 00:10:54
So Louis, I

Bill Stites 00:10:55
actually have a question for you. And similarly,

Bill Stites 00:10:58
Matt, I'd be curious as to your take on this if you think it

Bill Stites 00:11:02
applies. So one of the conversations I had with Louis a

Bill Stites 00:11:04
little while ago is when he came into this position, his title,

Bill Stites 00:11:08
and Louis correct me if I'm wrong with CTO, and then you

Bill Stites 00:11:11
moved over to CIO, the idea of what's in a name, and Christina

Bill Stites 00:11:16
asked what all of our different responsibilities are. What was

Bill Stites 00:11:19
the reason for your decision, the impetus for you wanting to

Bill Stites 00:11:25
make that shift between the T and the i, and why did you see

Bill Stites 00:11:29
or think that that was important? Yeah, that's

Louis Tullo 00:11:32
a great question. And I think because I came from

Louis Tullo 00:11:34
a corporate space before, my understanding of what CTO versus

Louis Tullo 00:11:39
CIO might have been very different than what schools

Louis Tullo 00:11:42
we're familiar with. Typically, if you're working in a company

Louis Tullo 00:11:46
that builds technology products, like, if you want to take

Louis Tullo 00:11:49
stereotypes, think of a company like Apple or HP or Lenovo or

Louis Tullo 00:11:54
whatever, the person who's in that CTO role is really driving

Louis Tullo 00:11:58
the product forward, really thinking about I'm building this

Louis Tullo 00:12:02
solution, or coordinating the team of people that builds the

Louis Tullo 00:12:06
solution. It's kind of an odd title in independent schools,

Louis Tullo 00:12:10
because oftentimes we're not building platforms and software

Louis Tullo 00:12:15
unless there's some sort of proprietary ed tech startup that

Louis Tullo 00:12:18
lives inside of school. And anyway, that's besides the

Louis Tullo 00:12:20
point, but a CIO really has oversight over the flow of data

Louis Tullo 00:12:26
through a school, manages the IT service arm of an organization,

Louis Tullo 00:12:31
and really possesses a lot of breadth of responsibility, and

Louis Tullo 00:12:36
not necessarily the depth that I typically associated with a CTO

Louis Tullo 00:12:41
around software development and product

Bill Stites 00:12:44
and Matt, you went from a role as director to then

Bill Stites 00:12:48
Chief Information and innovation and now back to a role of

Bill Stites 00:12:52
director. What have those title shifts meant to you in terms of

Bill Stites 00:12:57
when you were applying for these different types of jobs. Did

Bill Stites 00:13:01
they carry any different emphasis or weight in your mind?

Bill Stites 00:13:05
And how did you make the decision to make that change?

Bill Stites 00:13:07
And are you looking to change that title, having had both in

Bill Stites 00:13:10
your background? Yeah, you

Matt Norko 00:13:12
know, I think it's like a really interesting

Matt Norko 00:13:14
situation with title, because at the end of the day, the work

Matt Norko 00:13:17
doesn't really change that much, right? But I think what I find,

Matt Norko 00:13:21
especially kind of going back to kristina's question earlier,

Matt Norko 00:13:23
like, as a director of technology, I have the core

Matt Norko 00:13:25
things that I'm responsible for, but technology is so much bigger

Matt Norko 00:13:29
than that, and so I'm liaising with all these departments, and

Matt Norko 00:13:32
spend most of my time with the HR department, in admissions and

Matt Norko 00:13:36
the business office, all these other spaces, as Louis said,

Matt Norko 00:13:39
where the data is flowing Back and forth, and those are the

Matt Norko 00:13:41
things that I'm doing all day. And so when you have a title

Matt Norko 00:13:45
like director of technology, I think it automatically puts into

Matt Norko 00:13:49
people's mind that you literally just do the things that plug in,

Matt Norko 00:13:53
and you don't necessarily have something to do with the flow of

Matt Norko 00:13:57
data or how things in your schools should be. And so I do

Matt Norko 00:14:01
actually think that having those titles, like a chief information

Matt Norko 00:14:05
officer or something of that nature, it gives a different

Matt Norko 00:14:09
perception to the work that we do, and it's a little bit more

Matt Norko 00:14:12
all encompassing than Director of Technology. Yeah, thank

Christina Lewellen 00:14:15
you for that. I think that makes sense.

Christina Lewellen 00:14:17
I mean, I made the same joke on a previous podcast when my title

Christina Lewellen 00:14:20
changed, it was simply benchmarking around other

Christina Lewellen 00:14:23
associations in the independent school space, but I still did

Christina Lewellen 00:14:27
the same work the next day. It really didn't change anything

Christina Lewellen 00:14:31
about the day to day. So I appreciate that perspective. All

Christina Lewellen 00:14:34
right. So I want to ask you guys about You've each gone through

Christina Lewellen 00:14:37
in the last couple of years a pretty significant job change,

Christina Lewellen 00:14:41
leadership transition. So one of the things I'd love to spend

Christina Lewellen 00:14:44
some time on is, how did you tackle that first school year?

Christina Lewellen 00:14:49
How did you go about managing that as a leader, and from a

Christina Lewellen 00:14:52
leadership perspective, the background and the context of

Christina Lewellen 00:14:56
the conversation and part of why we wanted to have you on the pod

Christina Lewellen 00:14:59
is that. When this year's data came out in the Atlas

Christina Lewellen 00:15:02
compensation report, we are seeing a surprisingly high

Christina Lewellen 00:15:07
number of respondents talking to us about a job change in the

Christina Lewellen 00:15:12
next two years. So I don't want to overstate it or be

Christina Lewellen 00:15:16
hyperbolic, but I do believe that we in our space are facing

Christina Lewellen 00:15:21
a wave of transitions. There are a lot of tech leaders who have

Christina Lewellen 00:15:26
some level of dissatisfaction at their current jobs and or

Christina Lewellen 00:15:31
they're looking for more opportunity at a different

Christina Lewellen 00:15:34
school. And so I think we're going to see a lot of job

Christina Lewellen 00:15:38
changes in the next couple years. So the main thing I

Christina Lewellen 00:15:41
really want to hit on with you guys is, how in the world did

Christina Lewellen 00:15:44
you do it? You each, I believe, had to do a move, physical move.

Christina Lewellen 00:15:49
And most tech leaders, when they take a new job, they have to

Christina Lewellen 00:15:51
change locations. Rarely are you taking a job down the street.

Christina Lewellen 00:15:55
You're generally moving to a different part of the country,

Christina Lewellen 00:15:58
starting with a brand new team in a brand new school culture.

Christina Lewellen 00:16:02
It has to be a bit overwhelming, so I'd love you to just sort of

Christina Lewellen 00:16:05
reflect on that a little bit and tell us a little bit about how

Matt Norko 00:16:08
you handled your first school year. This is the

Matt Norko 00:16:10
third new school that I've been at, actually, and Louis and I

Matt Norko 00:16:14
were talking one time a little bit earlier about the fact that

Matt Norko 00:16:17
I've never actually taken over for a previous director. I've

Matt Norko 00:16:20
filled roles where there hasn't been a director in each of the

Matt Norko 00:16:23
last three schools that I've been at, and that makes for that

Matt Norko 00:16:26
first year to be even more challenging, because there's no

Matt Norko 00:16:29
roadmap, there's no transition time, there's no nice handoff

Matt Norko 00:16:33
from one person to the next. And it's challenging, right? Because

Matt Norko 00:16:37
you're hopefully walking into a space where you have a team, and

Matt Norko 00:16:41
not just a department of one, but you have just your team

Matt Norko 00:16:45
dynamics to figure out. You have your school culture to figure

Matt Norko 00:16:47
out, then you have the actual bits of technology to figure

Matt Norko 00:16:51
out. And for me, one of the things that's been most

Matt Norko 00:16:54
important is figuring out where we are, whether or not there are

Matt Norko 00:16:57
any expectations for where we need to go, and to figure out

Matt Norko 00:17:01
whether or not there are opportunities to sort of quickly

Matt Norko 00:17:04
get us into the right place. And I think that's one of the most

Matt Norko 00:17:08
challenging things about coming into a school where there hasn't

Matt Norko 00:17:11
been a tech director, is that a lot of things have just been

Matt Norko 00:17:14
happening for the last couple of years without any sort of

Matt Norko 00:17:16
direction. And so for me, it's a lot about figuring out what that

Matt Norko 00:17:20
direction should be and then quickly actually making that

Matt Norko 00:17:23
happen. And I think the old adage is, don't change anything

Matt Norko 00:17:27
in your first year. And I have not followed that advice ever,

Matt Norko 00:17:31
unfortunately.

Louis Tullo 00:17:33
Well, I think a lot of things happen even when

Louis Tullo 00:17:35
you're in the same spot that I was in, taking over for people

Louis Tullo 00:17:39
who were previously in the role, I know, my first independent

Louis Tullo 00:17:42
school technology leadership role, there was a director who

Louis Tullo 00:17:46
had left and had sort of a study done by an MSP that was very

Louis Tullo 00:17:51
popular regionally. You know, a report outlining, oh, these

Louis Tullo 00:17:55
things really need to be taken care of. These are the

Louis Tullo 00:17:58
opportunities for growth and things that you have to

Louis Tullo 00:18:00
remediate. And so there was a pretty clear charge in my first

Louis Tullo 00:18:04
technology role about what were priorities, things to look at,

Louis Tullo 00:18:08
and things to look at specifically aimed at change.

Louis Tullo 00:18:12
Because often, when you're coming into a new school, you're

Louis Tullo 00:18:15
being hired not just as the expert in the space, but as a

Louis Tullo 00:18:19
change agent. I found that to be the case when I moved back to

Louis Tullo 00:18:23
the east coast from the West Coast back in 2021 right after

Louis Tullo 00:18:27
COVID. I know when the job that I had opened up, it was

Louis Tullo 00:18:31
legitimately my dream technology job. I had very low expectations

Louis Tullo 00:18:37
that I'd have the opportunity to have a role like this so early

Louis Tullo 00:18:40
in my career, and was really grateful that Jason Ramsden, one

Louis Tullo 00:18:45
of the key people who was seminal to Atlas at the

Louis Tullo 00:18:47
beginning, was available for transition calls prior to

Louis Tullo 00:18:51
starting. Really kept me clued into where the bodies were

Louis Tullo 00:18:55
buried and some of the personalities that I'd be facing

Louis Tullo 00:19:00
and projects that he would have loved to have taken on if he was

Louis Tullo 00:19:04
going to continue on. And so that first year was really about

Louis Tullo 00:19:09
taking the posture of a scientist studying the

Louis Tullo 00:19:12
landscape. Matt, I agree with you. I know that our out of

Louis Tullo 00:19:15
school at the time was very leery about me making change,

Louis Tullo 00:19:19
but I am so type A that once I see something, I can't unsee it.

Louis Tullo 00:19:25
And there were definitely some opportunities for change,

Louis Tullo 00:19:29
especially when it came to optimizing data and analytics,

Louis Tullo 00:19:32
that I just couldn't resist that first year. And I think even

Louis Tullo 00:19:35
with the transition to a new Head of School this past year

Louis Tullo 00:19:39
who has a very different perspective when it comes to

Louis Tullo 00:19:41
innovation and technology, there's been opportunities to

Louis Tullo 00:19:44
kind of go back to that same space that I was in my first

Louis Tullo 00:19:48
year at Ravenscroft, and again, be a scientist, but also

Louis Tullo 00:19:53
continue to be that change agent to drive the school forward to

Louis Tullo 00:19:56
where it needs to be.

Bill Stites 00:19:58
So one quick question for the both of you.

Bill Stites 00:20:00
You know, because you both have left a school to come into a new

Bill Stites 00:20:02
school. And Lewis, you mentioned Jason's willingness and ability

Bill Stites 00:20:06
to have those calls to work through those different things.

Bill Stites 00:20:08
And I think the joke is, is that, oh, it's a July 1 start

Bill Stites 00:20:11
date. The start date, at least I've seen in a lot, not that

Bill Stites 00:20:14
I've changed a lot, but you know, in talking to a lot of

Bill Stites 00:20:16
people, is the start date is really once you agree to start

Bill Stites 00:20:20
the job, but to the point it's a matter of trying to get up to

Bill Stites 00:20:23
speed, because trying to come into a job like this, where

Bill Stites 00:20:27
there is so much institutional knowledge, so much knowledge

Bill Stites 00:20:30
that may or may not necessarily be documented well coming into

Bill Stites 00:20:35
it, and that learning curve can be fairly steep when you're

Bill Stites 00:20:38
starting. So thinking about how that is managed, I think, is

Bill Stites 00:20:42
really important. So the question is actually for both of

Bill Stites 00:20:45
you, in terms of, what did you do in your previous jobs before

Bill Stites 00:20:50
leaving to set the person up that is following you for

Bill Stites 00:20:55
success, and then what did you do with the school or with the

Bill Stites 00:21:00
team or with the person for which you were coming in behind

Bill Stites 00:21:04
at your new school. What did you do to make sure that you were

Bill Stites 00:21:07
again set up for that same level of success that you would like

Bill Stites 00:21:11
to have left for the person following you?

Christina Lewellen 00:21:14
Yeah, is it like you kind of have to do two

Christina Lewellen 00:21:16
jobs for half of a school year? Or at least your brain has to be

Christina Lewellen 00:21:20
maybe in two places?

Matt Norko 00:21:22
Yeah, definitely. So when I just left my school in

Matt Norko 00:21:25
Massachusetts, I was lucky enough to have transition time

Matt Norko 00:21:29
with my replacement, and so we didn't have a ton of time. We

Matt Norko 00:21:32
had about a 10 day overlap. It allowed me time to sort of get

Matt Norko 00:21:36
things in place for him, have some time to work through things

Matt Norko 00:21:39
with him, get him set up for the coming school year, and then off

Matt Norko 00:21:42
I went, but he and I have still been in contact, and it's been

Matt Norko 00:21:46
six months. And so, I mean, that's something I would think

Matt Norko 00:21:49
is a professional courtesy, but also, just as a tech person like

Matt Norko 00:21:53
we know that the tech community is pretty communal, and so just

Matt Norko 00:21:57
being there for people, I think, is obviously really helpful, and

Matt Norko 00:22:01
that's definitely an aspect of things that that is helpful, as

Matt Norko 00:22:04
Lewis said, like reaching out to Jason, knowing that he knows

Matt Norko 00:22:06
certain things. Louis can text him today and it's been three

Matt Norko 00:22:09
years, but Jason will respond. On my end, coming into a job

Matt Norko 00:22:14
where there wasn't a person made that more difficult, as Lewis

Matt Norko 00:22:18
said, I was hired to be a change agent, like I was hired for my

Matt Norko 00:22:22
knowledge, for my ability to come in and just figure it out.

Matt Norko 00:22:25
And unfortunately, that is sometimes what you have to do.

Matt Norko 00:22:27
And for me, because I didn't have a tech person to be able to

Matt Norko 00:22:30
talk to, like, obviously I could talk to my tech team about the

Matt Norko 00:22:33
daily stuff, but that didn't necessarily help with the

Matt Norko 00:22:36
direction of technology at the school or bigger decisions that

Matt Norko 00:22:40
have been made. And so for me, it was just a lot of talking

Matt Norko 00:22:43
with people. Unfortunately, it wasn't always on the tech side,

Matt Norko 00:22:46
but it was every administrator on this campus. It was every

Matt Norko 00:22:49
consultant that I could do, reaching out to my local area

Matt Norko 00:22:52
like Jim is not too far away, so that's really helpful. And

Matt Norko 00:22:55
understanding the landscape of like this geographic area and

Matt Norko 00:22:58
like vendors that are available things like that. Obviously, if

Matt Norko 00:23:01
you have somebody that you can reach out to, that's always

Matt Norko 00:23:03
best, but you don't have to, like, you can make it work

Matt Norko 00:23:06
without actually doing that. And that is, I think, the reason why

Matt Norko 00:23:10
we do the work that we do. And Christina, you alluded earlier

Matt Norko 00:23:13
the T list, like, there's reasons why we're in the places

Matt Norko 00:23:16
that we're in, and so being able to just jump into a school and

Matt Norko 00:23:20
make it happen. That's why we're hired.

Louis Tullo 00:23:23
Yeah, I completely agree Matt, and I think when I

Louis Tullo 00:23:26
thought about helping Bobby, who's at Athenian, where I was

Louis Tullo 00:23:30
at prior to Ravenscroft transition, the thing that came

Louis Tullo 00:23:33
to mind first is schools operate on this calendar, and the thing

Louis Tullo 00:23:38
that could really make or break an IT leaders. Initial

Louis Tullo 00:23:44
impression at a school is the way that they're able to get the

Louis Tullo 00:23:47
plane off the ground at the beginning of a school year and

Louis Tullo 00:23:50
land it at the end, and so really providing good

Louis Tullo 00:23:54
documentation resources, talking through those unique pieces of

Louis Tullo 00:24:00
what they look like at a particular school in transition

Louis Tullo 00:24:03
meetings was something that I prioritized. And I think

Louis Tullo 00:24:06
thankfully, again, thinking about the T list and those

Louis Tullo 00:24:10
domains when I was in my prior role, up until the point that I

Louis Tullo 00:24:14
made the decision to leave, I had tried to instill a lot of

Louis Tullo 00:24:18
structure, documentation, things about it, operations and Ed

Louis Tullo 00:24:24
Tech. So that way, when I was handing things off to the person

Louis Tullo 00:24:28
who was taking my place, that they had a set of resources they

Louis Tullo 00:24:31
could very easily navigate. And I would say that Jason really

Louis Tullo 00:24:35
did the same for me coming into Ravenscroft, it was immensely

Louis Tullo 00:24:39
helpful. I think the key sort of getting to what Matt was saying

Louis Tullo 00:24:43
about organizations having that trust and a tech leader to drive

Louis Tullo 00:24:48
the ship when they come on board. If you are transitioning

Louis Tullo 00:24:51
someone, it's important to give them a heads up so they can be

Louis Tullo 00:24:55
successful, but not lead with that just because this is the

Louis Tullo 00:24:59
way things have. Always been done that you shouldn't broach

Louis Tullo 00:25:03
changing it. I think sometimes a less seasoned it leader can say,

Louis Tullo 00:25:08
Oh, I just need to continue the momentum of this train so it

Louis Tullo 00:25:12
keeps going. But the reality is, tech in schools is constantly

Louis Tullo 00:25:16
changing. COVID showed us that. AI is showing us that, and if we

Louis Tullo 00:25:20
continue to rely simply on the way things were done in the

Louis Tullo 00:25:23
past, and I don't have this willingness to change moving

Louis Tullo 00:25:25
forward, even if we're going into a new role in a new school,

Louis Tullo 00:25:29
then we're not serving our communities in the way that we

Louis Tullo 00:25:31
should be.

Christina Lewellen 00:25:33
So let's stop down on that, actually,

Christina Lewellen 00:25:34
Louis, because I think that that's where I was sort of

Christina Lewellen 00:25:37
heading next anyway. Is that okay? So year one, you are

Christina Lewellen 00:25:41
observing, you are learning from, hopefully, the person who

Christina Lewellen 00:25:45
had the job before you, and you're getting used to the

Christina Lewellen 00:25:49
dynamics at your new school. So school year one is kind of

Christina Lewellen 00:25:52
scientist mode, right? Cool. So how do you then begin to do

Christina Lewellen 00:25:57
exactly what you're talking about, which is you've observed

Christina Lewellen 00:26:00
for a year, and now you're going into your first summer leading

Christina Lewellen 00:26:04
into your second school year. How do you begin to start

Christina Lewellen 00:26:09
getting those change flywheels moving? To me, the

Louis Tullo 00:26:15
technology leader is only as good as the team that

Louis Tullo 00:26:20
is working for them. And so really taking a look at what

Louis Tullo 00:26:24
team members are doing on a day to day basis, balancing getting

Louis Tullo 00:26:29
in the weeds, not to micromanage people, but to build empathy,

Louis Tullo 00:26:33
and say like, Oh, our frontline help desk person is dealing with

Louis Tullo 00:26:38
X, Y and Z, how should their job description and responsibility

Louis Tullo 00:26:42
shift so that they're not just coming at supporting it from a

Louis Tullo 00:26:47
reactive place, but being proactive and strategic and

Louis Tullo 00:26:50
doing the same for all different roles in the team? You know that

Louis Tullo 00:26:54
means on the teaching side, observing people in class. How

Louis Tullo 00:26:57
are teachers using tech, those that are STEM faculty, and maybe

Louis Tullo 00:27:01
those who aren't. So that way you can say, Oh, we've had this

Louis Tullo 00:27:05
piece of AV going for a while, and these solutions in place,

Louis Tullo 00:27:10
but maybe we need to evolve, because it's limiting the

Louis Tullo 00:27:13
teaching in this way or that way. So finding that balance

Louis Tullo 00:27:16
between being very proximate to the community that you're

Louis Tullo 00:27:19
working with but also thinking at a high strategic level is

Louis Tullo 00:27:24
really important. I would say that's the first step.

Matt Norko 00:27:28
Yeah. And I also think one of the things that's

Matt Norko 00:27:30
particularly challenging about this work at a school,

Matt Norko 00:27:33
especially in your first year, is that, you know, a lot of

Matt Norko 00:27:36
this, to be clear, revolves around money. I can give you an

Matt Norko 00:27:39
example. I started here in August. Well, budget meeting

Matt Norko 00:27:42
started in November. So how much of a runway am I going to get

Matt Norko 00:27:45
before I need to have my plans done for next July? So I don't

Matt Norko 00:27:49
necessarily have the luxury of like, an entire school year

Matt Norko 00:27:52
waiting to observe because then it's another whole summer of not

Matt Norko 00:27:56
doing anything and then putting things in the budget for the

Matt Norko 00:27:59
following year. And so to Lewis's point, like observing

Matt Norko 00:28:04
what people are doing, where those pain points are, what some

Matt Norko 00:28:07
other people's priorities are, and trying to put either a

Matt Norko 00:28:11
return on ROI or a value on investment to the things that

Matt Norko 00:28:15
we're doing is really helpful. I'll give you an example, like

Matt Norko 00:28:18
for us, the phone system that we were using is just not right for

Matt Norko 00:28:22
us. Not that I wanted to change the phone system within my first

Matt Norko 00:28:26
year, but it just made a lot of sense for us to do it over

Matt Norko 00:28:28
spring break. And so the amount of return that we're going to

Matt Norko 00:28:32
see by doing that project over our spring break, which is eight

Matt Norko 00:28:35
months into my tenure here, is going to be immense, because the

Matt Norko 00:28:39
new system is going to allow us to do so much more stuff that we

Matt Norko 00:28:42
actually can do, and reduce a lot of those pain points. End up

Matt Norko 00:28:46
cheaper on the budget, a whole bunch of different things that

Matt Norko 00:28:49
are definitely just where we need to be, at that strategic

Matt Norko 00:28:52
level, that are just not currently there. It's

Matt Norko 00:28:56
interesting

Christina Lewellen 00:28:56
because it sounds like there's a little bit

Christina Lewellen 00:28:58
of a journey in all of this, and whether you're a couple years

Christina Lewellen 00:29:02
into your job, or like Bill, who's been around for several

Christina Lewellen 00:29:06
decades, there's always this kind of cyclical nature, because

Christina Lewellen 00:29:11
it's technology. It's not like you do a project once and then

Christina Lewellen 00:29:14
you ride it out for the next 25 years. I mean, often, even

Christina Lewellen 00:29:18
talking about phone systems, you know, if it was done five or six

Christina Lewellen 00:29:20
years ago. It probably needs to be looked at again. In any

Christina Lewellen 00:29:24
number of technology solutions always need that kind of

Christina Lewellen 00:29:26
evaluation. So it's cyclical like that.

Matt Norko 00:29:29
Not only that, I would also say, like some of the

Matt Norko 00:29:32
projects are so long in their implementation. So, you know, we

Matt Norko 00:29:35
have a blackboard renewal coming up, and we have to decide, do we

Matt Norko 00:29:39
want to stick with Blackboard are going to look at something

Matt Norko 00:29:41
else, and if we are going to look at something else, how much

Matt Norko 00:29:44
of runway do we actually need? Because we're all in on one

Matt Norko 00:29:47
product. So if we're going to look elsewhere, that's a 24

Matt Norko 00:29:50
month implementation from beginning to end. And so even

Matt Norko 00:29:54
just coming up with what contract you choose now to give

Matt Norko 00:29:57
yourself the ability to make a transition. Question Two years

Matt Norko 00:30:00
from now is something that you have to consider, and is like an

Matt Norko 00:30:04
important piece in figuring out, even in your first year. Matt,

Bill Stites 00:30:08
one quick question for you. So I find it very

Bill Stites 00:30:10
interesting. You know, you came into a program where you had

Bill Stites 00:30:13
there were staff there, but there wasn't leadership in place

Bill Stites 00:30:17
for that. Coming into that type of environment, what has it been

Bill Stites 00:30:21
like to try to re establish leadership in this area where

Bill Stites 00:30:27
there's been either the status quo or this vacuum of that for

Bill Stites 00:30:30
the time since you've been there so far?

Matt Norko 00:30:33
Yeah, it's really hard. Like it's not something

Matt Norko 00:30:36
that happens overnight. It's been, I think, two and a half

Matt Norko 00:30:38
years since there's been a person in my role, and in two

Matt Norko 00:30:42
and a half years, the culture of the organization can really

Matt Norko 00:30:44
shift. And so the immediate sort of things that I know are that

Matt Norko 00:30:50
my role is not necessarily regarded as like a thought

Matt Norko 00:30:52
partner automatically. It's not that people have anything

Matt Norko 00:30:55
against me, but because there hasn't been that person here,

Matt Norko 00:30:58
they're not coming to me and my role and being that thought

Matt Norko 00:31:00
partner before things show up. And so just last year, we had a

Matt Norko 00:31:05
couple of softwares that other departments just adopted, and

Matt Norko 00:31:09
they sort of showed up in August when I got here, and I'm like,

Matt Norko 00:31:12
How did nobody know about this? Like, and so that's a

Matt Norko 00:31:14
challenging thing to overcome that takes a lot of patience and

Matt Norko 00:31:18
a lot of thoughtful work and a lot of outreach on my part,

Matt Norko 00:31:23
again, because people aren't really used to it. So if I'm not

Matt Norko 00:31:27
inserting myself in certain conversations, I'm not going to

Matt Norko 00:31:30
be part of them. And then ultimately, we're the ones that

Matt Norko 00:31:33
are sort of left supporting that work. And so it's beneficial for

Matt Norko 00:31:36
the school, it's beneficial for me to make sure that I am

Matt Norko 00:31:39
inserting myself into any and all conversations that can

Matt Norko 00:31:42
happen. And

Bill Stites 00:31:43
Louis, to the flip of that, you were following

Bill Stites 00:31:46
someone who had a very large footprint, I think both probably

Bill Stites 00:31:50
at Raven, given the time and tenure, and the fact, you know,

Bill Stites 00:31:54
his wife was working there, and everything that went on at

Bill Stites 00:31:57
Atlas. So there were big shoes to fill, and there was, I think,

Bill Stites 00:32:01
a certain way in which things had been done, and a certain

Bill Stites 00:32:03
expectation for the way the rhythm and flow of things. I had

Bill Stites 00:32:06
the good fortune of actually being able to go out there for a

Bill Stites 00:32:09
site visit. So I got to see the school first hand, and what that

Bill Stites 00:32:12
was like, and see the immenseness of that. What was

Bill Stites 00:32:15
that like, following someone like that and either again,

Bill Stites 00:32:20
establishing yourself for who you are and your style of

Bill Stites 00:32:24
leadership. Yeah,

Louis Tullo 00:32:26
I would say that it was both a blessing and a curse

Louis Tullo 00:32:30
to be 100% transparent. I think because Jason had built such

Louis Tullo 00:32:36
good will amongst the community when a lot of people were very

Louis Tullo 00:32:40
satisfied with the way that things were from a technology

Louis Tullo 00:32:43
perspective. I think some people thought, Oh, well, Lewis is

Louis Tullo 00:32:48
going to come in, and he must be capable of doing this job, and

Louis Tullo 00:32:52
so he'll just continue what Jason was doing. And it was

Louis Tullo 00:32:57
interesting when there were points and I said, Well, I might

Louis Tullo 00:33:01
approach that a little bit differently and having to really

Louis Tullo 00:33:05
justify myself and making a change. I remember probably the

Louis Tullo 00:33:10
first time that I really had to do that was when I pitched an

Louis Tullo 00:33:15
all school registrar role. Previously there was a registrar

Louis Tullo 00:33:19
in the Upper School. They just took care of that. Scheduling

Louis Tullo 00:33:22
was done at the division level. And when our Upper School

Louis Tullo 00:33:27
registrar was retiring, I said, given the fact that we are in a

Louis Tullo 00:33:31
pre K through 12 institution and that the person who sits in the

Louis Tullo 00:33:35
seat manages so much key academic data for the school,

Louis Tullo 00:33:40
what are we losing by having this function just live within a

Louis Tullo 00:33:45
single division, rather than looking at our school as a

Louis Tullo 00:33:48
whole? And you had a variety of reactions, you know, Lower

Louis Tullo 00:33:51
School administrators who thought, oh my gosh, like we're

Louis Tullo 00:33:56
dealing with stuff in kid land all day long. Please take

Louis Tullo 00:34:00
registrar stuff from us. It's a welcome change. And then you had

Louis Tullo 00:34:04
people on the upper school side who are like, well, we're a

Louis Tullo 00:34:08
little bit different than the middle and the Lower School and

Louis Tullo 00:34:10
so we want to make sure that our needs are being met, and don't

Louis Tullo 00:34:14
want it diluted by having this person be responsible for

Louis Tullo 00:34:18
scheduling as a whole. But when it came down to it really having

Louis Tullo 00:34:22
conversations with people in different spaces and showing

Louis Tullo 00:34:25
them the fact that if we're going to really be data driven

Louis Tullo 00:34:28
our decision making, it starts with our key data, which is in

Louis Tullo 00:34:32
the academic side of the house, then this change has to happen.

Louis Tullo 00:34:35
That's just one example of places where I've had say, I see

Louis Tullo 00:34:40
things differently. Here's some data that is informing a

Louis Tullo 00:34:45
hypothesis that I have, if we make this change, I believe that

Louis Tullo 00:34:49
we will be able to whatever the end of that sentence is, and

Louis Tullo 00:34:53
really taking the time to not end change when, like the person

Louis Tullo 00:34:58
is hired or the. Equipment is bought and say no, I'm not gonna

Louis Tullo 00:35:03
just say, all right, things are great now I'm gonna carry things

Louis Tullo 00:35:07
through to the support stage, and as people are experiencing

Louis Tullo 00:35:10
the pains of dealing with change that I've made support them and

Louis Tullo 00:35:15
bring them along the way has been key in having my leadership

Louis Tullo 00:35:19
style be received, and hopefully the way that it's intended to be

Louis Tullo 00:35:23
received. I

Christina Lewellen 00:35:24
have a question for all three of you. I

Christina Lewellen 00:35:27
did mention earlier that we've got a lot of our peers who are

Christina Lewellen 00:35:31
considering a job change in the next two years. If a colleague

Christina Lewellen 00:35:35
in our space calls you and says, I'm thinking about changing

Christina Lewellen 00:35:39
jobs, how do I know if it's the right time? Do you have any

Christina Lewellen 00:35:42
advice or guidance or lenses through which they can make that

Christina Lewellen 00:35:46
decision?

Bill Stites 00:35:47
I will say I think it depends on where the position

Bill Stites 00:35:51
is, because you may know about the school like so if it's

Bill Stites 00:35:54
something that is going on in the area, if it's something that

Bill Stites 00:35:57
opens up regionally, you may have some personal experience

Bill Stites 00:36:01
there, or people that you may know that are at the school that

Bill Stites 00:36:04
you can reach out to. So I think those first hand or those first

Bill Stites 00:36:08
hand adjacent, I don't wanna say second, but those close ties

Bill Stites 00:36:10
that you may have with people that are either there or have

Bill Stites 00:36:13
interacted with them, that you can reach out into a trusted

Bill Stites 00:36:16
sense, I think, is incredibly important, because you'll also

Bill Stites 00:36:20
see the way in which those schools and those organizations

Bill Stites 00:36:24
interact, not only in their own space, but at the state level.

Bill Stites 00:36:29
So How involved are they, like for us in New Jersey, How

Bill Stites 00:36:31
involved are they at NJI s, do I see them participating? Do I see

Bill Stites 00:36:35
them out there? Are they involved? Atlas, are they

Bill Stites 00:36:38
involved in other areas? So to get a feel from that and

Bill Stites 00:36:42
understand what's going on there. The other thing that I

Bill Stites 00:36:45
always tell people to do is dig in on the website. And how much

Bill Stites 00:36:49
can you find on the website that either speaks to the mission and

Bill Stites 00:36:54
value of the schools? Because you want to make sure those are

Bill Stites 00:36:56
aligned, that you're in alignment with those things,

Bill Stites 00:36:58
more so than anything else. But the other thing, from an IT

Bill Stites 00:37:01
perspective, is, how well is it represented on their public

Bill Stites 00:37:05
facing website? Because I think that speaks a lot to what goes

Bill Stites 00:37:09
on there and what that might be like, and you're going to be

Bill Stites 00:37:13
able to get as much information as possible, kind of reconning

Bill Stites 00:37:17
those public areas, in those public spaces where that might

Bill Stites 00:37:21
be. And lastly, what I do with everyone, before we record the

Bill Stites 00:37:26
podcast or before I speak to everyone, stalk them online, see

Bill Stites 00:37:30
what's going on, via LinkedIn, via Twitter, who are the people

Bill Stites 00:37:35
there, who are the players there, and get an idea of what

Bill Stites 00:37:38
are they posting, what are they talking about, and equally as

Bill Stites 00:37:41
much, what aren't they saying? Or are they not saying anything

Bill Stites 00:37:45
at all, because then I think that tells a story as well. So

Bill Stites 00:37:48
those would be some of the areas where I think I would jump in. I

Matt Norko 00:37:52
think this is a really loaded question in many

Matt Norko 00:37:55
respects, because if you're talking about moving on for

Matt Norko 00:37:58
career progression, I think it's obviously a much more linear

Matt Norko 00:38:01
path. But again, this is my fourth school, and I've been

Matt Norko 00:38:05
through a few things. I think some of what Bill said was

Matt Norko 00:38:08
really key to me, right? Like, if you see the school's mission

Matt Norko 00:38:13
or culture not in alignment with your own, then that's a clear

Matt Norko 00:38:16
sign that it's probably time to start looking I think also, if

Matt Norko 00:38:22
you feel like you just need to put your head down and do your

Matt Norko 00:38:25
work and get through the day, that's probably not where you

Matt Norko 00:38:28
want to be. We all talk about the Independent Schools as being

Matt Norko 00:38:31
such a warm and welcoming community where we all feel

Matt Norko 00:38:34
appreciated and loved and known. And if you don't feel that way,

Matt Norko 00:38:39
then I think probably there's something missing there, and I

Matt Norko 00:38:42
know that's happened to me, where I like my job, but

Matt Norko 00:38:45
something is not right there. And so I've known that okay, as

Matt Norko 00:38:49
much as I like Job, I like the setting, I like the school, I

Matt Norko 00:38:52
like my colleagues, it's still not the right fit for me. And so

Matt Norko 00:38:55
it's time to move on, and I think that could be challenging,

Matt Norko 00:38:58
and particularly if there's any sort of acrimony or animosity,

Matt Norko 00:39:04
especially if you're serving on a leadership team, it might not

Matt Norko 00:39:06
be all cakes and roses. Luckily, I've not really been in that

Matt Norko 00:39:10
position, which is great. But leaving on good terms is

Matt Norko 00:39:13
certainly a good thing. But also knowing when is time to go is

Matt Norko 00:39:16
really important. And if there are a lot of jobs available,

Matt Norko 00:39:20
that's great. There is always one tech director at every

Matt Norko 00:39:23
school, right? There's not four options at every school. And so

Matt Norko 00:39:26
your options may be limited, and especially if you don't have the

Matt Norko 00:39:30
luxury of just up and moving to a different side of the country,

Matt Norko 00:39:32
which is a luxury. And so knowing when to look knowing

Matt Norko 00:39:37
when to leave, I think, are really important. But you know

Matt Norko 00:39:41
when it doesn't feel right, and that's when you need to look

Matt Norko 00:39:44
that's

Christina Lewellen 00:39:45
a really good distinction. The idea of

Christina Lewellen 00:39:47
career mapping and looking for advancement versus moving on

Christina Lewellen 00:39:50
because you're discontent, those are clearly two different

Christina Lewellen 00:39:53
things, and hopefully it's more about the next opportunity than

Christina Lewellen 00:39:58
it is about not being satisfied. Your current place, but things

Christina Lewellen 00:40:01
happen, and not every organization is the perfect fit

Christina Lewellen 00:40:04
for every leader. Yeah,

Louis Tullo 00:40:06
and I'm thinking like a lot about what Matt said

Louis Tullo 00:40:08
and both my own career journey, and then I feel fortunate in

Louis Tullo 00:40:14
that a lot of people in the Atlas community have reached

Louis Tullo 00:40:17
out, as they were like, considering new jobs and going

Louis Tullo 00:40:20
to new places and wanting to talk through the possibility of

Louis Tullo 00:40:24
change, and in some cases, if a friend trusts you to be

Louis Tullo 00:40:30
vulnerable and share that they're looking for a new job

Louis Tullo 00:40:33
and put themselves out there, especially in a community small

Louis Tullo 00:40:36
as ours, being a person to ask really thoughtful questions

Louis Tullo 00:40:40
about why they're looking to make a change and have them see

Louis Tullo 00:40:44
for themselves whether they're ready to make that change or

Louis Tullo 00:40:47
not. Is really important. There have been times where I maybe

Louis Tullo 00:40:51
had doubts whether someone was ready for a change, but it's not

Louis Tullo 00:40:55
my place to make that decision for them, but I knew as like a

Louis Tullo 00:40:58
friend and someone who cared for them, not as like a direct

Louis Tullo 00:41:01
colleague, but as somebody in my PLN that I was going to ask

Louis Tullo 00:41:05
questions so that hopefully, maybe they could reflect on

Louis Tullo 00:41:08
their own leadership journey prior to considering making a

Louis Tullo 00:41:11
change. I think that's really important, sort of connecting to

Louis Tullo 00:41:14
what Matt was saying. And then when it comes to applying to a

Louis Tullo 00:41:18
school, I think the first thing that you really need to see, and

Louis Tullo 00:41:22
that goes back more to what Bill was saying is that does the

Louis Tullo 00:41:26
school's identity, do their mission and values align with a

Louis Tullo 00:41:31
place that you want to be at? Because technology is part of

Louis Tullo 00:41:35
how a school functions, and if you don't see the way in which

Louis Tullo 00:41:40
your role as a technology leader connects to the mission and the

Louis Tullo 00:41:44
values and the vision of a school it's going to be not the

Louis Tullo 00:41:47
greatest place for you to work. The other thing that I learned

Louis Tullo 00:41:51
as I made my transition to my current role is that I want to

Louis Tullo 00:41:56
know everything I can about the person that I'm reporting to, so

Louis Tullo 00:42:00
whether the technology leader reports to a CFO or head of

Louis Tullo 00:42:04
school, you want to really get a sense of, Am I going to enjoy

Louis Tullo 00:42:09
working with this person? Do I get the sense that they'll care

Louis Tullo 00:42:12
about me as a professional and the ways in which I want to

Louis Tullo 00:42:16
grow? Are they going to be someone who has my back? Because

Louis Tullo 00:42:19
inevitably, in technology, things go wrong, and if you get

Louis Tullo 00:42:23
the sense during an interview that this person might throw you

Louis Tullo 00:42:27
under the bus when something bad happens, that could make a very

Louis Tullo 00:42:32
divisive working environment. So really, interviewing your

Louis Tullo 00:42:36
potential boss is just as important as the school

Louis Tullo 00:42:40
interviewing you, and then I think some people conflate being

Louis Tullo 00:42:44
a really good manager with being a leader, and that's sort of

Louis Tullo 00:42:47
what I was getting to at the beginning, when I just started

Louis Tullo 00:42:49
talking about being ready to assume a technology leadership

Louis Tullo 00:42:52
position or not. Management involves the way that you assign

Louis Tullo 00:42:57
people tasks and get projects from the start to the finish

Louis Tullo 00:43:00
line, but a really good leader has a strategic vision for where

Louis Tullo 00:43:05
things are going to be in the future. They're not only

Louis Tullo 00:43:08
managing the day to day, but they're saying 510, years from

Louis Tullo 00:43:11
now, I want to see our school operating in this space. And I

Louis Tullo 00:43:16
would say, honestly for me, that did not happen until I was in

Louis Tullo 00:43:21
the role that I was in currently, and I happened to be

Louis Tullo 00:43:24
reporting to a head of school who was super dynamic, Doreen

Louis Tullo 00:43:28
Kelly, who's retired this past year because she wasn't in the

Louis Tullo 00:43:33
weeds managing my role as a technologist. She was like, what

Louis Tullo 00:43:36
kind of leader do you want to be? And it forced me to ask

Louis Tullo 00:43:38
questions and do things in my department that I never thought

Louis Tullo 00:43:41
I would it's important

Christina Lewellen 00:43:44
because I think that as leaders in this

Christina Lewellen 00:43:46
space, we're acknowledging and part of why we're having this

Christina Lewellen 00:43:49
conversation is that it's certainly not getting easier.

Christina Lewellen 00:43:51
It's getting more complex. And I guess you could argue that all

Christina Lewellen 00:43:54
things get complex over time, but in particular, the role of

Christina Lewellen 00:43:58
the technology leader at schools, there's just a lot of

Christina Lewellen 00:44:01
things for which you're responsible. So how do you guys

Christina Lewellen 00:44:05
juggle that, whether you're new to your job or whether you've

Christina Lewellen 00:44:08
been there for a long time? What are some of the ways that you

Christina Lewellen 00:44:12
look for and find balance in terms of just all the

Christina Lewellen 00:44:15
conflicting priorities and people pulling you in a million

Christina Lewellen 00:44:19
directions?

Louis Tullo 00:44:21
Yeah, I was smiling because as a leadership team, we

Louis Tullo 00:44:24
recently read an article from Harvard Business for you, it's a

Louis Tullo 00:44:28
very old article about whose monkey is it when you're talking

Louis Tullo 00:44:32
about time management, and how sometimes people will come to

Louis Tullo 00:44:36
you they've got a monkey on your back. And our new head of

Louis Tullo 00:44:39
school, Derrick Willard, really did a great job of getting us to

Louis Tullo 00:44:43
think way more critically about different kinds of time, things

Louis Tullo 00:44:47
that are imposed by the system that you're in, things that are

Louis Tullo 00:44:49
imposed by your boss, and things that you have some autonomy over

Louis Tullo 00:44:53
as well. And so when I think about all the things that maybe

Louis Tullo 00:44:58
fall into other duties as a sign. And that appear on a job

Louis Tullo 00:45:01
description. For a technologist, the less autonomy you have on

Louis Tullo 00:45:05
your time, the harder it is to make those sort of strategic

Louis Tullo 00:45:09
moves. I mean, you think about something like AI and what it

Louis Tullo 00:45:13
means to integrate that into the technology program at your

Louis Tullo 00:45:17
school, both on the operational side and on the teaching and

Louis Tullo 00:45:20
learning side, you need to be able to sit down as a tech

Louis Tullo 00:45:24
leader, understand the landscape of tools the way people are

Louis Tullo 00:45:28
using them, how it impacts cyber security. And it's impossible to

Louis Tullo 00:45:33
do that if you're sitting in your office and people are

Louis Tullo 00:45:36
constantly wanting your help to run this report or fix this

Louis Tullo 00:45:41
issue. Back to the whole idea of time management and monkeys

Louis Tullo 00:45:45
really delegating things well to the members of your team, giving

Louis Tullo 00:45:49
them a sense of ownership of the work that they do, so that they

Louis Tullo 00:45:52
can support you, and your ability to function

Louis Tullo 00:45:54
strategically, I think, is very key, and it's hard to do that

Louis Tullo 00:45:59
when you're wired to want to fix things and get them off your

Louis Tullo 00:46:04
list quickly, but I think ultimately it's what helps you

Louis Tullo 00:46:07
to be a really great leader. Yeah,

Matt Norko 00:46:10
to Lewis's point earlier, like I think there's a

Matt Norko 00:46:12
fair number of tech folks who are happy being good managers,

Matt Norko 00:46:16
good tech managers, and not necessarily good tech leaders.

Matt Norko 00:46:19
And I know of colleagues who are in similar positions and their

Matt Norko 00:46:23
schools are not really pushing forward, and we don't really

Matt Norko 00:46:26
have the luxury of not pushing forward right. Whether it's a

Matt Norko 00:46:28
cyber security threat or AI is coming on, whatever there might

Matt Norko 00:46:32
be, you have to be operating in that strategic space. I

Matt Norko 00:46:37
definitely see how being somebody with, like, boots on

Matt Norko 00:46:41
the ground, understanding what's going on in the day to day will

Matt Norko 00:46:43
help you figure out just how to manage tasks well. But I think

Matt Norko 00:46:46
that also lets you identify, like, where there can be

Matt Norko 00:46:50
efficiencies, how life can be a little bit better, where are

Matt Norko 00:46:52
there possible risks, and how can you mitigate those? And then

Matt Norko 00:46:56
keeping all of that in mind while you're also thinking

Matt Norko 00:46:59
about, as Louis said, like, where do you want to be in five

Matt Norko 00:47:01
years? Like, you can't just get there. What do you need to do

Matt Norko 00:47:05
today in order to get to where you are 510, years from now? And

Matt Norko 00:47:09
certainly for me, like a huge piece is just keeping up with

Matt Norko 00:47:13
everything. It is so easy to just put that off and just not

Matt Norko 00:47:17
do it, because there are so many things happening in the day to

Matt Norko 00:47:20
day, to day, whether or not it's running a report or fixing a

Matt Norko 00:47:22
switch or doing something, but if you don't keep up with all

Matt Norko 00:47:26
the stuff that's going on, you're never going to be able to

Matt Norko 00:47:29
devote enough time to figuring out where you need to be. And

Matt Norko 00:47:33
for us, that's like the most important thing is evolving with

Matt Norko 00:47:37
everything that's happening, and making sure that our schools are

Matt Norko 00:47:41
prepared to do that. That is the whole point of Atlas, right?

Matt Norko 00:47:44
Making sure that our schools are prepared to do all this stuff.

Matt Norko 00:47:48
And if we're not doing our part, whether or not that's going to

Matt Norko 00:47:51
conferences or just keeping updated with our PL ends, we're

Matt Norko 00:47:55
not able to do that, and then we're doing a disservice to our

Matt Norko 00:47:57
schools 100%

Bill Stites 00:48:00
it's the team, and it's a leadership style. You've

Bill Stites 00:48:02
got to successfully develop your team. You've got to prioritize

Bill Stites 00:48:05
the work that they're doing. Lewis, you mentioned earlier,

Bill Stites 00:48:08
you know you're not micromanaging, you're not

Bill Stites 00:48:10
sitting there on top of them. You delegate, and then you lead,

Bill Stites 00:48:13
and it depends on the leadership style that you choose, and can

Bill Stites 00:48:17
see that in yourself, and know who you are as best as possible,

Bill Stites 00:48:21
and then know who you have under you that is working with you. I

Bill Stites 00:48:24
shouldn't even say under you working with you, because it is

Bill Stites 00:48:26
that team approach. And then moving forward, because Matt,

Bill Stites 00:48:30
you said it, there's so much that goes on in the day to day.

Bill Stites 00:48:34
There's so many pieces that we're sitting there struggling

Bill Stites 00:48:37
with that could just consume us in the day to day that we would

Bill Stites 00:48:41
never get to that visioning piece, if not. I also think the

Bill Stites 00:48:45
visioning piece, and Matt, you mentioned this, being seen as

Bill Stites 00:48:48
that thought partner, getting into those conversations, making

Bill Stites 00:48:52
sure that you're involved, I think, is really helpful. And I

Bill Stites 00:48:56
think if you're starting a new position, figuring out how to be

Bill Stites 00:49:00
invited to those or maybe even crash those conversations in a

Bill Stites 00:49:05
respectful sense, I think, is important. And part of all what

Bill Stites 00:49:08
we need to be thinking about when we make those types of

Bill Stites 00:49:11
changes, or when we're in our current place for 31 years, and

Bill Stites 00:49:14
we need to keep those conversations going absolutely

Christina Lewellen 00:49:18
so before we run out of time with you guys

Christina Lewellen 00:49:21
today, the last thing I would really love to spend a brief

Christina Lewellen 00:49:24
moment on is the role of the T list so the technology leader in

Christina Lewellen 00:49:29
independent school certification, all three of you

Christina Lewellen 00:49:32
were instrumental in helping this program get up and running.

Christina Lewellen 00:49:36
If there are folks in our space who aspire to be a CIO or a

Christina Lewellen 00:49:42
technology director at a larger school, really kind of looking

Christina Lewellen 00:49:45
to map out their career and take those next steps. Can you help

Christina Lewellen 00:49:49
us understand how the T list can help in these types of career

Christina Lewellen 00:49:53
transitions? I was having a conversation

Matt Norko 00:49:55
with the head of school who was hiring for a tech

Matt Norko 00:49:57
physician. He had an English. Background, and said, if this

Matt Norko 00:50:01
was an English position, I would know what to look for, but it's

Matt Norko 00:50:04
a tech position, I just don't know what to look for. Then I

Matt Norko 00:50:06
started to explain what the T list was, but I'm hiring right

Matt Norko 00:50:09
now for a position on our team, a network and Systems

Matt Norko 00:50:13
Specialist. And you know, there are certain things that I want

Matt Norko 00:50:16
to see in the resume. There are certain like keywords that I

Matt Norko 00:50:18
would love to see. And some of them have them. Some of them

Matt Norko 00:50:21
don't have them. And when I think about the T list in terms

Matt Norko 00:50:25
of going for tech positions, like if I saw T lists, I would

Matt Norko 00:50:29
know that they have an understanding of certain things.

Matt Norko 00:50:32
So I don't necessarily need to see every single keyword in that

Matt Norko 00:50:35
resume. Just by them having that certification, I know that they

Matt Norko 00:50:39
have exposure, depth of knowledge, and just a logical

Matt Norko 00:50:43
understanding of all these different domains that are

Matt Norko 00:50:46
covered in the T list. So I don't have to worry as much

Matt Norko 00:50:49
whether or not they have five extra years of job experience

Matt Norko 00:50:53
that has all these bullet points. I know that they contain

Matt Norko 00:50:55
that knowledge and are ready for a leadership position.

Louis Tullo 00:50:59
Yeah, one of the things that I think is the most

Louis Tullo 00:51:02
powerful differentiators of the T list is the fact that it gives

Louis Tullo 00:51:05
you real insight into the way a technology leader thinks. And I

Louis Tullo 00:51:10
know that as we were in the process of developing the

Louis Tullo 00:51:13
certification, I was in the middle of like a master's

Louis Tullo 00:51:16
program at the same time, and when I think about some of the

Louis Tullo 00:51:21
questions that we developed in the way that we approach this

Louis Tullo 00:51:23
test, the level of intentionality around assessing

Louis Tullo 00:51:28
somebody's thought process when they're confronted with a

Louis Tullo 00:51:31
particular scenario in using their IT knowledge and that

Louis Tullo 00:51:35
leading to what is the correct answer on the exam stood out to

Louis Tullo 00:51:39
me. So clearly, I just thought to myself so many times, this is

Louis Tullo 00:51:43
something that is at the level of master's level work, or

Louis Tullo 00:51:48
something beyond it, because you can teach somebody how to create

Louis Tullo 00:51:52
a network or manage systems or do AV work, or, you know, all

Louis Tullo 00:51:58
the technical things that go into our job, but applying that

Louis Tullo 00:52:01
knowledge in a way that's going to drive things forward is

Louis Tullo 00:52:04
something entirely different. So when you think that the whole

Louis Tullo 00:52:07
certification is aimed at endorsing people for leadership,

Louis Tullo 00:52:11
yes, like Matt said, it's assumed that you know how to do

Louis Tullo 00:52:15
X, Y and Z things, but those four letters say, not only do

Louis Tullo 00:52:20
you know those things, but you can apply that knowledge in an

Louis Tullo 00:52:23
independent school environment. And I think that's

Christina Lewellen 00:52:26
crucial, and that's really where we started

Christina Lewellen 00:52:30
the T list journey was that you weren't going to be able to

Christina Lewellen 00:52:34
memorize answers out of a book and take this exam. It was very

Christina Lewellen 00:52:37
scenario based and very leadership based. So that's why

Christina Lewellen 00:52:40
I wanted to hit on that briefly, because I think that if a person

Christina Lewellen 00:52:45
is an aspiring CIO or technology director, studying for that exam

Christina Lewellen 00:52:50
might be a little bit harder, because you really do need the

Christina Lewellen 00:52:52
experience to be able to apply your expertise in certain

Christina Lewellen 00:52:55
scenarios, but it also can prepare You to possibly step

Christina Lewellen 00:53:00
into these really complicated leadership roles. So yeah, I

Christina Lewellen 00:53:04
appreciate your reflection on that, and what I hear a lot from

Christina Lewellen 00:53:07
our first generation tech leaders is, man, if that had

Christina Lewellen 00:53:11
been around 20 years ago, that would have been really useful.

Christina Lewellen 00:53:14
But really, technology does change a lot. So we can't just

Christina Lewellen 00:53:17
teach technology. We have to teach the leadership skills

Christina Lewellen 00:53:20
around how to make decisions about technology from that

Christina Lewellen 00:53:24
strategic lens, which is really hard, but also really important.

Christina Lewellen 00:53:28
Okay, so before we let you guys off the hook, this has been so

Christina Lewellen 00:53:33
incredibly helpful, I want to thank you both for sharing your

Christina Lewellen 00:53:37
perspective. I know that changing jobs is always a pretty

Christina Lewellen 00:53:40
complicated decision, and starting a new job is quite a

Christina Lewellen 00:53:45
lift. So I appreciate you guys bringing some of your

Christina Lewellen 00:53:49
experiences to the podcast and sharing them with our audience.

Christina Lewellen 00:53:52
I'm sure that you help many, many more people than you

Christina Lewellen 00:53:55
realize, who might be kicking some of these thoughts around.

Christina Lewellen 00:53:58
So thank you very much for that. Before we let you go, I would

Christina Lewellen 00:54:02
love to just ask you briefly, what is the thing you're

Christina Lewellen 00:54:05
thinking about today at school, as you're wrapping up this

Christina Lewellen 00:54:09
school year, what are some of the big picture things that you

Christina Lewellen 00:54:11
guys are wrestling at your schools? For me,

Matt Norko 00:54:14
it's definitely AI. Is just something that we talked

Matt Norko 00:54:17
about at our professional growth day. And I think the question

Matt Norko 00:54:21
that we left on is with the use of AI, what could we get to that

Matt Norko 00:54:27
we're not currently getting to? And I think that's a really

Matt Norko 00:54:30
great thing for us to think about, especially when we're

Matt Norko 00:54:34
talking about it in terms of teaching and learning. And are

Matt Norko 00:54:37
you offloading skills that need to be taught versus not using

Matt Norko 00:54:40
AI, but where could AI get us that we just can't get to right

Matt Norko 00:54:45
now, I think there's a great conversation to have, and

Matt Norko 00:54:49
certainly as a tech leader in an independent school, it's not

Matt Norko 00:54:53
only very timely, but I think we have to have that conversation.

Matt Norko 00:54:57
I

Louis Tullo 00:54:57
definitely would echo what Matt is saying about

Louis Tullo 00:54:59
a. AI, but probably on an even larger scope, I think this year,

Louis Tullo 00:55:04
having gotten to teach an entrepreneurship class for the

Louis Tullo 00:55:07
first time, and seeing all the ways that the value proposition

Louis Tullo 00:55:12
of independent schools is changing in terms of the

Louis Tullo 00:55:15
modality in which schooling is offered, I'm starting to think

Louis Tullo 00:55:19
what ways can technology, including AI, help us to flip

Louis Tullo 00:55:25
the system on its head and maybe offer school in a different way

Louis Tullo 00:55:30
that shows that independent schools can offer something to

Louis Tullo 00:55:35
students for teaching and learning that's dynamic and

Louis Tullo 00:55:37
thriving and that will continue to be relevant in the next 10

Louis Tullo 00:55:41
years. And I know that might sound obtuse, but I think it's

Louis Tullo 00:55:45
because it's the confluence of all these things like blended

Louis Tullo 00:55:48
learning, meets AI meets experiential Ed that's more

Louis Tullo 00:55:53
career focused, as opposed to just getting kids ready for

Louis Tullo 00:55:56
college. And so beginning to wrap my head around that is what

Louis Tullo 00:56:00
I'm thinking about. I love

Christina Lewellen 00:56:02
that you guys are the big brains. Thank

Christina Lewellen 00:56:05
you so much for spending this time with us. It's been such a

Christina Lewellen 00:56:08
pleasure. You really were the perfect folks to have this

Christina Lewellen 00:56:10
conversation. So thank you so much for joining us, and I look

Christina Lewellen 00:56:13
forward to seeing you soon in person.

Peter Frank 00:56:17
This has been Talking Technology with ATLIS,

Peter Frank 00:56:20
produced by the Association of Technology Leaders in

Peter Frank 00:56:22
Independent Schools. For more information about Atlas and

Peter Frank 00:56:26
Atlas membership, please visit the atlas.org if you enjoyed

Peter Frank 00:56:30
this discussion, please subscribe, leave a review and

Peter Frank 00:56:33
share this podcast with your colleagues in the independent

Peter Frank 00:56:36
school community. Thank you for listening. You