Tech Leaders as DEI Champions: A Path to Belonging

Narrator 0:02
Welcome to Talking Technology with ATLIS, the show that plugs you into the important topics and trends for technology leaders all through a unique Independent School lens. We'll hear stories from technology directors and other special guests from the Independent School community and provide you with focused learning and deep dive topics. And now please welcome your host, Christina Lewellen.

Christina Lewellen 0:27
Hello everyone and welcome back to talking technology with ATLIS. This is Christina Lewellen. I'm the Executive Director of ATLIS.

Bill Stites 0:33
Hi, I'm Bill Stoltz. I'm the Director of Technology at Montclair Kimberley Academy.

Hiram Cuevas 0:38
And I'm here with weight loss of Director of Information Systems and Academic Technology at St. Christopher's school in Richmond, Virginia.

Christina Lewellen 0:44
Hey guys, how you doing everything go on. All right, on this fine, early fall day,

Bill Stites 0:49
I'm enjoying the weather it finally has stopped being like oppressively hot, and is actually you know, cool, you can open windows at night, you can kind of turn the air conditioning off and the fans off and enjoy fine fall the

Christina Lewellen 1:03
it's such a faux pas to like date, the podcast with a mention of the beautiful fall weather, but I'm just I feel it in my soul today. So I just couldn't help myself because I had like dinner on my deck last night in Virginia. And I was just loving my entire life.

Hiram Cuevas 1:18
Yeah, it was much easier walk in the dark this morning. nice and crisp, nice and crisp in Virginia.

Christina Lewellen 1:24
I love it. So we're heading into a really important topic today on our podcast, guys, because we're gonna hit on Dei, and the role that technology leaders can play. And in the way of background, I know this is something bill and Hiram, you guys are both really passionate about and I also know that you advocate for progress in your schools in this space. So I'm really excited. I'm always excited to have you guys as my co host. But today, I'm really excited because I think that it's going to be a really great conversation with our guests. You know, one of the things that's really cool is that ATLIS was kind of observing that tech leaders were playing a more important role in the realm of dei work at their schools than they weren't necessarily even giving themselves credit for. Like, I'm sure that you guys among them, right, like you were doing things to advance the mission that your schools have, you know, the goals you have in terms of dei and inclusion and belonging. And, you know, I think that it's really interesting how like, tech leaders don't really think of themselves as dei Advancers. But you guys really are. And so we kind of picked up on that thread. And last year, the advisory committee, the ATLIS dei advisory committee did some incredible work. And now our guest today is going to kind of take the reins as the chair of that committee and keep things rolling. So before we welcome her to our show, I know you guys do a lot of work in this space. So just tell me real quick your response to that setup. I know you're doing work in this space, what do you think about it your schools in terms of Dei, one of

Bill Stites 2:53
the things that I think it was really interesting, I'm gonna jump ahead a little bit to kind of like getting into the framework a little bit. But looking at the framework and looking at all of the things that we either have been doing, or are in the process of doing, thinking about how far actually down the road, we are in certain areas, was actually really refreshing to see, I think with schools, I think when you think about D AI, where you can kind of get looped into what is the topic du jour of what is like hitting us right now. But when you look about it, and you think about all the different aspects of the AI and the way in which schools need to address that, through their choice of device and the way in which they provide the device or the way in which they choose programming and pull programming, I think it's great to look at what ATLIS is doing with this framework, look at the work that we've been doing as a school and thinking about the things we can pat ourselves on the back for but also the things that we're going to need to invest more time and energy on. And one of those areas for us right now is really just trying to align what we say we're doing the talk that we're talking, and what we're actually doing in the walk that we're walking in and making sure that all those pieces come together. And that's really where our focus is right now, as a school here.

Hiram Cuevas 4:15
And I would also say it's refreshing to be involved in these conversations with other tech leaders from around the country just to see what other schools are doing and, and having conversations about things like having non tuition task forces at your schools, for example, to see, you know, what is the actual total cost of attendance to attend your school? And how does that impact everyone on your campus, the various constituent groups and we've gone through an extensive exercise there to look at, well, what does it cost to attend St. Christopher's school isn't just tuition and fees. And we all know that if you've ever filled out the FAFSA for college and higher ed, you know that it's a lot more expensive. And that's just one small sliver of this conversation.

Christina Lewellen 4:53
Yeah, that's exactly what we're talking about. Like the fact that those technology pieces can actually be a Part of the DEI conversations the total costs, which is easier for some students and others, right? That's what you guys are looking at.

Hiram Cuevas 5:07
Absolutely. And then the other piece is, you know, we're bringing your own laptop model. So we're different than Bill School, which is a one to one school provided laptop. So we need to make sure that we have a line item within our financial aid model that also incorporates you know, the purchase of a laptop and make sure that they're actually getting the laptop that they need to be productive here on campus. And that's just one issue that we're wrestling with. Another one that we were really grateful to put forth. Just this past week was a name pronunciation tool, which is allowing our students and our faculty and staff members of diverse backgrounds to enunciate and pronounce their name effectively so that other people can get a sense of who they are and what their background is. I think that is also an important piece. And it has been received incredibly well.

Christina Lewellen 5:54
That's awesome. Well, I think, guys, we have the perfect guest, then to introduce to our listeners today, because Allison Ross, first of all, Allison, Hi, and welcome to the show. So glad to have you on our podcast.

Allison Ross 6:07
Thank you for having me. I'm so excited to be here.

Christina Lewellen 6:10
Well, as you can tell, from this frame up, we need to kick some things around with you today. Allison, I'm gonna let you tell everybody a little bit about yourself as she is our current chair of ATLISes dei Advisory Committee, this group was formed back in 2019. And if I'm honest, it took us a while to kind of get our legs under us in terms of what the work was, are we supporting ATLIS and the organization and its tech DEI efforts? are we supporting the technology leaders at schools in their dei journeys. And so it took us a couple years to kind of wrestle that a little bit and get on a clear path. And I think that path continues to evolve. So first, I just want to say, you know, thank you for your leadership. Can you tell everybody a little bit about who you are? And how in the world you found yourself as the leader of this committee?

Allison Ross 7:04
You know, I love that you said how in the world because I felt like so much of my life I go, how in the world that ends up here, same same. All wonderful things, but for sure, like what? So I am the seven, six, don't quote me on that one generation of my family to be an education, like the family business that my mom made me swear I would never go into and then I did. What a

Christina Lewellen 7:32
rebel you are. How dare you be a teacher? I mean, that's a bad girl choice.

Allison Ross 7:36
I you know, rebel with a cause and a teaching certificate. I graduated from the Louisiana State University. I am a proud LSU Tiger. I have a bachelor's in history. And I moved to Texas and started teaching here and title one public schools and got my master's from Texas a&m. I was super excited to teach. I love teaching and I loved making those relationships with kiddos. I taught seventh grade Texas history. And I lived in Texas two months. It was so fun, because I'm a proud Louisiana. And so I live in Austin, Texas. I've been here since 2007. And I still consider myself a Louisiana ambassador to Texas. So I'm very proud of that. And I'm also very jealous of y'all talking about your delicious weather because I thought I lucked out walking my dogs this morning at 630. And it was like 75 degrees. And I was like,

Christina Lewellen 8:37
Oh, this is fall. A balmy 75

Allison Ross 8:41
Exactly, exactly. The high today is 95. So yay. I think my passion for teaching lies and watching students have these really engaging experiences in the classroom, especially when I worked with populations that their experience in the classroom was the highlight of their day, like walking into my school. They were safe. They were fed, they were loved. And they had eight hours of great experiences before they exited to have to go back to sometimes unsavory conditions. And so I watched how inclusion, how identification, how authentic learning how technology all just brought joy to the seventh graders that I worked with. And so I felt the tug on my heart pretty early in teaching to as I looked at other folks going well, how did you do that? Well, what did you hear? And then I was sharing a lot and I was like, well, maybe I should go get a master's degree. That's when I went into leadership and I eventually went into Instructional Technology Leadership, where most of my experience is surrounded coaching teachers and technology because little did I know at the time, but I was really making things more accessible for student and set didn't have technology at home, they were having these really rich experiences in the classroom and getting their horizons expanded with this great use of technology in an authentic way.

Christina Lewellen 10:12
So it's almost like you were doing some of this work before we even had language around it.

Allison Ross 10:17
Yes. And looking back, I'm like, I should have wrote that down. You know? You know, honestly, I thought I would just be a teacher, I actually left. When I left undergrad, I was like, I'm gonna go teach high school history actually started out as a music major. Like, it's just fun. Again, how did I end up here, but there have just been certain things in my life just in how I was raised. And then personal things that have happened to me. And then just having also that layer of seeing a child's experience as they are in the classroom, really made me understand and shape this idea that students, all students belong, all students, not just the majority of students, it's all students belong. And so at the heart of my D, I work, it is all about this is what's best for kids. And so when I get down into the chaos of things, and like, you know, I call it my thinking hole, whenever I read, my thoughts are just in the hole with me. And I'm just like, Ah, I'm like, but what is best for kids, that's kind of driven my work, even to a different place that I never thought I would be. So I'm in the last year, God willing, I have my Doctorate in Educational Leadership and Organizational innovation with Marymount University. And my dissertation is on coaching, secondary social studies, teachers in culturally responsive pedagogy to build belonging within the classroom. I'm actually working on my theoretical framework today about critical race theory and critical theory, which I know are such hot words right now. But they're so important, when you really dig down past all the jargon that clouds all the things, when you really think about what is best for a child and you keep that lens on, as you look at things like that. It's so powerful. And if you have a heart for children, you'll see that there are so many things that we can be doing to make sure that every child feels like they can belong. And technology plays a beautiful role in that. So it really has fueled my work in what I'm doing. And I am learning every day, every day. I'm like, Whoa, you know. So the thing now with a dissertation is like, you have to stop having woes and start writing things down. So

Christina Lewellen 12:41
Well, I mean, that does happen. I want to pause for a second and pick apart this phrase. And I've worked with you now for a few years. And so I've heard you say it before, I'd like you to tell me, as if I've never heard this before what you mean by culturally responsive pedagogy that facilitates or initiates or sees this blossoming of belonging? What does that mean to you? You're in the depths of it. Why studying it? Like, what does that mean? Exactly?

Allison Ross 13:12
It's a great question. And it's a question that there's a lot of different answers that people will create. But the academic answer is that you are creating educational experiences, you as the educator are creating educational experiences in your classroom that both recognize and affirm students from all backgrounds. So really, at the heart of it, it is student agency, how often in your classroom are students able to not only exercise agency and express themselves in their content, but also have models within their content that are representative of their cultural background. I know we all have state curriculums like I'm in Texas, we have lots of them. And you know, when we think about what's in our content, especially from a historical standpoint, with me teaching history, who are we talking about? Most whenever we look at our content, and who else could we be talking about? That would make a child go, oh, there's a hero. I was reading an article last night from the amazing and wonderful Dr. Gloria Ladson. Billings, and it just talked about how like if an African American child was trying to learn about black history in an American classroom, how sparsely populated that historical context would be, because they wouldn't really know like, what really happened? Because the main the majority takes the storyline. And I use history because that's where my background is, but Dr. Ladson billings also argues alongside Geneva Gay, that there's a place for culturally responsive pedagogy in all subjects, and in all lanes of education. cultural responsive pedagogy is exercising this idea that all students have the right to have the rich experience that most students have, if that makes sense. So most students the way that our curriculum is written, especially for non marginalized populations, they're having this rich Oh, this is who I am. This is the history of, of my ancestors, this is where I'm from. But now America is so diverse. And yet we're still teaching the same standards. And so how do we shape our curriculum so that it leans into the true diversity of America, not just what's the convenient diversity of America, but then also gives that child the time to really show who they are, and also gives them the area where they can lean into, and go, Oh, well, what about this lens from this area that I identify with, and this isn't necessarily just ethnicities, or races, but also gender, sexuality, religion, all those different ways that people can identify themselves. It's really neat when you think of it that way. And honestly, when you think about technology, all of that comes to fruition with tech.

Christina Lewellen 16:05
Yeah. And that's where I want to kind of, I'll open it up to all of you guys, because you're better versed in this than I am. So tech, I'm assuming technology can help in this process, when we talk about recognizing and affirming students really giving them that agency, tech can blow this up. Right? Give me some examples, Hiram, or bill or Allison have where you've seen technology really kind of unleashing student agency. All that you're

Bill Stites 16:33
saying, I mean, so much of it is really resonating with me. And you mentioned, you know, what you just said is really talking about that commonality of experience, and being able to experience things in a similar way, amongst all students, it shouldn't just be based on whatever your background is, or wherever you come from. And one of the things, as I mentioned in the lead with this is, when we looked at the framework that was put together, you know, as part of this work, and all the other pieces that were done, and I kind of reflected on what we did as a school here. So Hiram mentioned earlier, you know, we are a school provided one to one, and you may not think much about it in terms of di but we wanted to make sure that all of our students, regardless of their economic backgrounds, were able to have the same device as the other student to be able to have the same set of tools as all the other students so that there was no haves or have nots, there were no students that were going to be impacted in a way in which we either benefit them or take away from what they were able to do, because of the technology that we were putting in their hands. And the ability to provide that level of commonality of experience, from a technology perspective, really allowed us to then pivot and focus solely on the learning and what we were going to do at that point. So once we were able to overcome that hurdle, I think that was really one of the biggest things that we were able to do. I'm curious whether Hiram or anyone else, how you've seen that in a similar way, to the way in which we have

Hiram Cuevas 18:17
had mentioned earlier, having a line item for our financial aid students, for example, to purchase a laptop or whatever our goal is that the bare minimum laptop that any student on our campus needs, and it actually satisfies our lower school because we're one to one Chromebooks in our lower school is the Chromebook. So if you see students, and if you can see part time teachers who teach just one class and they're issued a Chromebook that is a specific model that we use throughout the campus, so it's already ubiquitous. So with the Bring Your Own model that we actually have here on our campus, it gives families in general the flexibility to answer a couple of questions. The first is, what ecosystem Do you belong to? And what's comfortable for your family in terms of that ecosystem? To what financial point breakpoint are you most comfortable with in terms of buying the technology? We've moved everything into the cloud? So there are no applications that are actually needed by any particular machine? It ends up being personal preference, in terms of the access to the curricular materials that we have.

Christina Lewellen 19:21
Yeah, kind of sounds like you have more of a hybrid, honestly, yeah, because of the support scaffolding that you've put around it.

Hiram Cuevas 19:28
Correct. And so by doing the bringing around in the middle in the upper, we have about I'd say 15 to 20% of our boys are all using Chromebooks. And so when you see a boy with a Chromebook, it doesn't really matter, because there's choice already built into that as well. And it's really a level playing field in terms of the curricular experience, because everybody has access. The point that we were dealing with very, very early on, going one to one and I'd be curious to see how Bill handled this. MK is it's not necessarily just the device but it's Also the access at home. What kind of Internet access do students and families have when they leave a glowing campus in terms of Wi Fi and internet capabilities? And when they go home?

Bill Stites 20:13
The one thing that we ended up doing and I think this gets to, specifically your question, but one of the things from a DI perspective that we started exploring with a lot of the questions that we were asking, that weren't just about technology that may be about gender, or race, or nationality, or any of those things, is, why are we asking these questions? What are we planning on doing with this information? So to specifically answer your question, we survey our families. And we say what level of Internet access do you have at home, so that you can have that commonality of access between because what we want to do is we want to know what we can do to help support and bolster that when they are outside of the school. Same thing goes when we start thinking about asking questions about some of the topics that are more commonly thought of when you're talking about di issues, around those other types of questions Is that why are we asking the question, why do we want you to provide this information because we are then going to use it in these ways to better support you in the school, whether that is through technology, whether that is through affinity groups, whether that is through student clubs and activities that may support you in ways that really respect and identify who you are as a person, and the needs that you have in your specific case.

Christina Lewellen 21:35
So let's toss it back over to Allison. Because I think that you're hearing some very specific examples of how we get technical how we operationalize some of these things that we're talking about. So let me toss it back over to you. What are your observations?

Allison Ross 21:49
You know, when I was listening to how y'all bring in and make things accessible? It was so wonderful to hear. And I'm curious, in a culture responsive lens, are your systems created to a point where you can't see a difference between the child that gets the Chromebook for free and the child that doesn't? Because in a culturally responsive lens, there are so many cultures and identities that any type of assistance, there's shame attached to it is the best way I can put it. And so a culturally responsive lens would be, how do I take away that component where there is no shame in accessing this very important tool that I'm going to use as a child? Because when we think about that piece, you actually feel like you have to be like MacGyver and just kind of like, get in there and be a sleuth. I mean, I've had to do this before, not with just with tech, but like I had children, when I was teaching in the beginning, that it would be really cold, it does actually get cold sometimes in Texas, like a blistering, 30 degrees, frigid, if you will, but they didn't have jackets. And so like I would try to give them a jacket, and they would not take the jacket. And I'm like, you're freezing, you know. So I had to like be a ninja via culturally responsive ninja and like, somehow get this child what they needed. So I'm curious about how y'all take that into account whenever you're offering these amazing resources that you put so much thought and time into

Hiram Cuevas 23:26
this, Allison, I think this is something that I think has grown over the years, this is not something that we just throw into place, because we knew all of the answers. I would say that when we were looking at this from a, the technology piece that was that ended up being just one sliver, the access was another sliver. The other thing that's quite fascinating right now is that we've taken a more holistic approach to supporting families as well as the student because it's often difficult for families who may not be able to attend a school meeting during the day. And now being able to actually have virtual meetings at off hours or recorded meetings so that people can participate in them is providing additional academic support during the summer or vacations where you can bring students who are coming in at various entry points that need a little bit more support, say at the sixth or the ninth grade level, or even the third grade levels, which are main entry points for us that we wanted to make sure we were providing those resources for them, providing opportunities for our parents to also get together and recognize that they're not alone in dealing with some of these issues, and take some of that strain off of them individually so that they can have a group that they could lean on internally and also recognize that the school is available to support. I'd be curious to see what MK is doing because I just went for a visit there and I know they already do a great work so I'll be curious to hear what they're doing here.

Bill Stites 24:47
So very quickly, because everyone at our school gets the device from the school. There is no perceived kind of like handout or there's no perceived. There's no perception of it being different For any other person, so I think that goes back to that commonality of experience everyone is seen in the same way in what they receive. Now, what we do have is, you know, we do have students that are either here on some degree of financial aid that can be a small award to, you know, almost a complete scholarship through our Community Scholars, and what we end up doing is really there is house interior ninja, you know, needing to get through it all is we have to as an institution be very explicit and clear with those people that need to know, when you have a student who, you know, we have a policy where if a student damages or breaks a device, up to a certain point, the family is responsible for that we make that very clear in our contract. However, if you were a student that is on significant financial aid, or one of these communities, fellas, they never see that bill. But there is nothing that the student needs to do. There's nothing that the family needs to do. There's nothing that the child even needs to know. Because on the back end, our system Tech's here at the school have a list that is shared to them confidentially from our admissions office, whereby which they know that these students are simply not to be charged. And it's something that happens. And again, they never see it, they never know, their parents never see any of that there's never a question that comes back. So the point I'm trying to make is it is not necessarily about the process or what we actually do to support the kids. It's the fact that there needs to be clear defined communication and policy around how you plan to handle these cases when they come up, so that you can respond in a way that is appropriate and honoring a student and their family the way in which you need to.

Christina Lewellen 26:53
So all of these examples really lead into what I want to talk about next. And it really kind of articulates in actual examples why we went down the path of framing up the DEI framework, because a year year and a half ago, it was Alison, Dr. Ashley cross on our team, Denise Musselwhite, and I were having these conversations around the fact that technology leaders were doing this work, you guys are clearly doing this work. And yet, they weren't really seeing themselves in these leadership roles. And so what we wanted to do was get words on paper. And I think two things happened. One, Allison, you wrote a very engaging and wonderful blog, you basically kind of corralled, the DEI Advisory Committee, and you wrote a post on ATLISes community discussion boards, around how technology leaders facilitate belonging. And that kind of kicked off a deeper conversation about how we encourage and facilitate DEI efforts in general. Fast forward, we put some words on paper, the advisory committee kicked it around at meeting after meeting, and we came out with earlier this year, the ATLIS dei framework for technology leaders, this effort articulates in a variety of ways how technology leaders can support DEI efforts at their schools sort of breaks it down into, you know, kind of phase one, if you're at the beginning of this journey. What does this look like phase two more advanced? You know, how are you hoping in the realm of people and processes and technology to support Dei? So I want to ask you, Alison, that made a big splash, right, like when we launched that our community was really impressed by it. And I think it was more impactful than people realize. So I'd love for you to just kind of reflect quickly on what you think of the framework or why you think it was so impactful. And my follow up question is, and yet, I think now we're being asked as a committee to kind of peel back the onion a little bit and go deeper, because folks are like, this framework is great, which by the way, the DTI framework is available on ATLISes website, and it's available to everyone regardless of membership status. So if you haven't seen it, and you don't know what we're talking about, we'll put it in our show notes, but go to ATLISes website, grab it. So I guess my question two parts, what was your perception of it? Or what did you think when we launched it, but now we've got more work to do. And so what's next?

Allison Ross 29:20
I found in this work, with ATLIS, with my dissertation with my research with all of it, with working in schools, at the heart of every educator, they care about those children, all children, any children, and they want to do what's best, but they find themselves going. I don't even know what questions to ask. I remember I moderated and presented a panel my first year of research, and then also why is dei important to tech leaders. It's a great panel at ATLIS. Gosh 2022 I still feel like we're all still in the year 2020 But it was an amazing Saying panel with some dei members. And they all had different perspectives and different ways that they approach Dei. But it kind of gave everyone someone to identify with. Like, here's this one thing that I can do to make this big impact, you know, and as leaders, were trained in all of our postgraduate work to look for the smallest leverage points make the biggest impact, right? And so this is the same, where can we look for a small point to make a big impact and then do something, do something. So I found after especially after doing that session at ATLIS in Orlando, I found people reaching out to me afterwards going, I loved everything you said, I loved everything the panel said, I've been curious about this. I just don't know what to do. And a lot of it is like in that paralysis by analysis. And so it just seems so big, independent schools are very good at that, by the way, Oh, absolutely. If you're still teetering and curious of like, I don't know what to do. And so I'm not doing anything, I'm gonna go ahead and say, if you're not doing anything, you're not doing good. So it's actually a form of privilege to not do anything. It's a form of privilege to not address what's going on here. And so I don't think anybody wants to participate in oppression. But by not doing anything, and trying to ignore it, that actually is counterproductive. And so my challenge to anyone that hear this is to do something, do something, because you don't want to add to the problem, right? And so as we are tossing around this idea of how can we support our members at ATLIS, how can we support technology leaders? How can we support educators and getting really pragmatic steps to addressing Dei, the first thing we had to do was go, I've got to look within myself and understand how privilege plays a part within myself. That's one thing I've actually learned in my research is that you really need to stop and do that critical consciousness of who am I? Where's my role in this? And then once you understand that, now that I know as Dr. Maya Angelou said, now that I know better, I do better. So then we move forward saying, Okay, what do I do now? And then that's where the DEI committee who we've all talked about on the DEI committee that doing this type of work is very difficult, because it is something that like, yes, you can do something good to us cybersecurity, you can use to talk about cybersecurity, because it's something extrinsic, right? But di work includes your intrinsic, because we all have had those feelings of not belonging. And so once you address that piece, how do we move that forward? And so the DI committee came around, we're like, we need to make some sort of toolbox, we need to make some sort of way that people can take something and move through and go to that next step. And then we also identify that everybody's in a different space. So how do we really elevate where you are in that space, wherever you fall? And it's not necessarily a spectrum? And it's definitely not a checklist? But like, where do you identify and where do you want to move next, you're never going to check all your boxes, I do all the DEI things. Now, it doesn't work like that this is ongoing, there's always going to be children that are going to feel marginalized in learning organization. So what are you going to do? And so the framework was created so that technology leaders can stand in that leadership space and say, Here, I have this to offer. And I would say on the committee for the next steps we're looking at. Okay, so now that you have some information, here's some really applicable ways that what we're doing can be used and what you're doing, because I've noticed, whenever I talk to our members, they want to do something, and then they're always asking each other well, what are you doing? What are you doing? And that's the beauty of education, right? We like share everything. And so that's kind of how this whole framework really leans into the role of the technology leader, and also helps that technology leader say, I am a leader at this table, and I am here to support D AI. A lot of times I've also found in our committee, we've got some folks that are seen in that space of executive leadership. We've got others that are saying, I'm not there. But I need to be able to make the argument that I have solutions, I can be part of what we are trying to do to make learning accessible for all children. And it's been really neat. Yeah, I

Christina Lewellen 34:48
think that surprised me, like the committee kind of coming back to us and saying, This framework is great, but I need help. Like, I don't know what to do, or I'm not invited to the room. Oh, or I get into the room. And then I stumble in there. And I hold up this framework. And they go, yeah. And so what I find interesting is that as we like, we thought we had done this cool thing. And we did, we did this cool thing. But only when we came back as a committee did we say, oh, man, we have some more work to do, because everybody's at a different place in their schools and in their own journeys. And we've got to give more of a toolbox. And that's kind of what I'm proud of the committee for kind of going Okay, then let's build the toolbox. So now you are the leader of the toolbox builders. So congratulations. Yes,

Allison Ross 35:34
leader of the toolbox. Builders, I love that I'm going to put that on a shirt and go to Home Depot, and just see what happens.

Christina Lewellen 35:41
They'll probably like, What can I help you with ma'am?

Allison Ross 35:44
Exhibit like a leader of the toolbox here? I know where I'm going. So yeah, I mean, we want to empower with this type of work, you really have to dig deep. And I was talking to a really amazing member of my cohort with my doctoral studies, the future Dr. Jerry Ogden, and she has an amazing nonprofit, and she was talking about how just di work is exhausting, and that you have to dig deep, often. And then I think about that in correlation to educators. And it's exhausting. And you have to dig deep, often. But man, how great is it? I know, it also takes a level of vulnerability. And some people are like, Oh, I don't know if I want to mess with this. There's lots of reasons people shy away from dei work. Vulnerability is a big one of them. But my challenge to anyone hearing this is if you're not willing to be vulnerable, I don't think you're really willing to be a leader are you? I think that we were looking into what these leaders are doing. And going, Okay, here's something that you can add to your toolbox. Here's something you can add to your toolbox. And the cool thing about these tools is that they are very customizable, because the DEI committee has so many amazing people that come from so many different areas of the country in so many different roles. And technology, leadership looks very different in different spaces. And so that really just makes us like really rich area for resources. And all these really amazing leaders on the DEI committee are able to offer solutions.

Christina Lewellen 37:15
Yeah, it's a really incredible group. And I love that they're sort of digging deep to peel back the onion and say what's next, I want to ask all of you what you think would be useful in advancing this idea that technology leaders can be dei leaders in their schools, even if that's not their primary or tertiary or 10th. On the list type of role. There's something they can bring to the table in terms of operationalizing these efforts. So my question is that, but as I give you a second to think about that, what does that look like? Or what do tech leaders need, I also want to throw out to our audience kind of an open invite, because Allison, I know that as the committee walks down this path of doing this work and building out this toolbox of like stuff to help, whether that's like a training PowerPoint of some sort, or written resources or videos or whatever that might be, we're not looking to get into the swim lane of actually training people in dei topics. But we're trying to train our members in our community about how to contribute to this work at their schools. So I invite you, the audience, if you have ideas or ideas about what you need, either things you are doing or things you need help doing. I encourage you to reach out to ATLIS reach out to Allison and the committee, because we're going to be digging deep into this work this year. But let me talk to you guys, you know, Bill, or Hiram, and then back to Allison to what do you think tech leaders need? In addition to like, Okay, here's this cool framework. Now what?

Bill Stites 38:49
You know, I think about, like, the conversations and the work that we've done here at our school, and you talk about digging deep, and really getting into the weeds of things is, and I mentioned this earlier, you know, you define what you say you're gonna do, you talk to talk, but then you've got to dig in and make sure that you're able to walk that walk and one of the areas where, as you know, the director of tech is somebody who's responsible for all of the information systems, where a lot of the information goes, we started taking some deep dives into what that looked like, and really thinking about it from the first point of entry into our school. We started looking at our admissions inquiry forms and our applications. And what were we thinking about? And what were the questions that we were asking there? And do they align with everything that we say we're doing and trying to see people for who they are, and how they see themselves and there was there was some misalignment there, and I even went so far as to look at other schools to see what questions they were asking. You know, as you mentioned before, you know, you come together You talk well, you see what other people are doing because this is such at least for us here at MK in New Jersey in the Northeast. You know, there's a lot of emphasis being placed on this and the work that we're doing, and making sure that we were able to align ourselves in a very public way, with what we were putting out there, whether that was in our written work about who we were as a school and what we were able to unwilling to do. But then looking at it, you know, me seeing that information and then saying, Okay, well, here's where what we say we're doing, and what we can do, from really a technical perspective, a lie, you know, so how do we need to adjust our prefixes in the way in which we ask people to fill in the information? What are the choices that we are allowing for gender? How are we asking questions about what you want to participate in, if somebody can pick that they identify as non binary, and then you ask them to identify whether they want to play boys or girls x, or participate in boys or girl, why it looked like you cared, but then you really didn't. So wanting to make sure all of those things really fall into place. And the issue also is exacerbated by the fact that you think about the system that you use in this example of admissions, right? You look at this system for intake into that admission system. Well, if your admission system, isn't your system of record for your students, if, if there's got to be data moving between those two systems? Well, are those two systems in a line? If one system allows you to do X, but Y system doesn't allow you to do that? Can you really ask that? And how do you bridge that? And then when you get into it a step further. So you think about the admissions process, the student when they are at the school, and then when they become alarmed when they get into that further thing? You know, you could have cared about them all along. And then when they become alum, if that system doesn't support it, what does that mean? I think one of the biggest challenges we have as schools as IT leaders, and really one of the challenges I would put to the community at large ATLIS. And the vendors that we deal with is how can we much like the one roster standard made it easy for academic data to be transferred between different systems, really asking our vendors to step up and look at all of these factors that contribute to identity and who people are as individuals and really seeing them for who they are, that there'll be consistency across all of those, because otherwise, you're implementing bad data practice, you're putting data in places where it doesn't work. And I can even go down the rabbit holes. As soon as you do that. As soon as you start sending data from one system to another an academic system, we've seen this, where if your legal first name is your legal first name, but we're going to list your nickname or your preferred name everywhere, but the system that I connect with, to share data with only draws through an API, the first name, we've just fallen down there. So there's a lot of heavy work that needs to go into this because there's top level work. And then there's second third level work that needs to happen. And it's, it's work we're taking on right now. And we could use all the help we can get.

Hiram Cuevas 43:16
So Bill, I'd like to follow up on that many folks out there may not know but Bill and I have done a lot of data audits for schools on the side. And one of the things that often comes to fruition is that the schools really need to figure out, are the departments going to actually work together? Or are they going to try and be their own island in terms of data. And oftentimes, when you ask people that to take a step back and do what's best for the school, and when you start having that conversation, you're really addressing the school's mission, the school's mission should trump everything else along the way. And as a result, you do have, I find tech leaders often lead from behind on a regular basis, especially if they're not at the table all the time. So you're having to present solutions to problems that that most people don't even realize exist within the data systems. And I think the best example that bill just provided was, you know, that first name, the first name header is, is pretty much standard in every system. Now whether or not you can have a preferred name or a nickname category as well, that's a misalignment. And that's often something that you can then benefit from a standard API to pull data in that you don't no longer have to touch that data. Now you actually have to manage that data in order to have it follow through. So the data alignment conversation, I think, is an aspect that tech leaders have to lead from behind in order to fulfill the school's mission as well, that leads to many of these conversations that we're having right now, as it relates to identity and agency.

Christina Lewellen 44:52
Allison, if I could toss back over to you in the realm of Okay, so you've got these tech leaders like Bill like Hiram, not everybody at that level, but they're do When the right thing, they're trying to get the right things in place. So how does that translate to the classroom? Can you maybe just chuck to our listeners some ideas about, let's say you have these great technology, thought leaders in your school that are kind of putting things in place to make this work easier. But what does the classroom teacher need to do then? Like it's all well and good to have name, pronunciation software integrated with your si s. But then there has to be that carryover into making that a useful tool in the classroom. And of course, many more things than that as well.

Allison Ross 45:36
Great question and shout out to our teachers, because they have so many, they're swimming,

Christina Lewellen 45:45
they're swimming in it, like this is not easy stuff right now, especially.

Allison Ross 45:49
There's all the big things like culturally responsive pedagogy, and you know, all these big things. But honestly, you know, when people like simply put what is culturally responsive pedagogy, and I'm like, it's a necessary differentiation for all students to have an authentic learning experience. And so when we think of it that way, and we think of like those, even those one little steps that we can do that one thing, what is that one change we can make, so that student feels like they can be seen and identified. And not just included? I know dei has that I have inclusion, but like, especially think of a time whenever you were, oh included. But whenever you actually belonged, you know, you want to go where everybody knows your name, cheers. And I think even that even having the teacher be able to say the child's name, and not stumble over it, or shorten it to where the child doesn't really appreciate, not to show you what the negative is. But Serrata Hammond, in her book, culturally responsive teaching in the brain, talks about how the all those tiny little things are just tiny little traumas on the brain. And when you look at it that way, you don't want to cause a child to have trauma in your classrooms supposed to be a safe space. So as a tech leader, by empowering them with the named pronunciation software, by empowering the teacher giving the teacher the right information about here's what their name is, here's what they'd like to be called. And then assisting them, assisting them with how to pronounce the name. And I'm just using this as one example. But there are so many things as tech leaders we can do to empower teachers, I also think it's really important as a tech leader, to start having the conversation of seeing yourself as an educational leader. One thing we talked about in our dei see on the committee is that we need to step out of this idea that we are the leader in the room with the boxes and wires, and that tech leaders no longer want to be seen that yes, we were big heroes in the pandemic, because you know, digital learning happened. And we're like, whoo, let's go. But I think emerging from that emerging from post pandemic, we see that the average classroom teacher is much more empowered, and has much more agency to enact their own edtech tools. And so technology leaders can really lean into that. And go, Yes, I'm also an educational leader. I very rarely have seen a tech leader in a school that has zero teaching experience. I know they exist. But honestly, if you're going to make the commitment to be surrounded by children all day and their devices, you must love kids.

Christina Lewellen 48:33
Yeah, default teacher, right? Or default kid lover.

Allison Ross 48:37
Exactly, exactly. And so just getting back to that heart and saying, like, I am an educational leader, like I am here at this table. And if you don't, if you're like, wow, you know, I really am a boxes and wires person, then I challenge you to pair with the instructional tech person on your campus, they will speak your language. And they will also speak the educational language as well. And then really build that alliance so that tech is seen as more than just boxes and wires and that they do have solutions to bringing dei to fruition for all students. We've seen that just that realization of stepping out and saying I want a seat at this table with leadership teams on the committee and people are saying I have solutions to offer. And then also from that leadership standpoint, looking at like you were talking about the data alignment systems and components that come with solutions to the table, not just we have a problem, or we need to address this, but really offer up those ideas because things are coming at us so hard and fast now and so I feel like whenever we when we talk about D i Whenever we actually have something ready to go it's in something shaped and formed and ready to stand up. That's when it's a little bit easier to start acting on it and moving it into our systems that are in place within schools.

Christina Lewellen 49:58
And it's not like it's easy work right I know that there are titles and politics in any organization to navigate, right. But like, if somebody's standing there with their hand up going, I'm interested in helping get this across the finish line, which is what we're seeing a lot of our tech leaders do. They're raising their hands and saying, I can help actually, I can help you accomplish these goals. And I can help you operationalize this vision that you have, then I would think that schools would be open to kind of like putting together and we're seeing some schools putting together cross departmental task forces to kind of tackle this really difficult work. But I guess my question, my final question is we sort of round out this incredible discussion. There's no way we're going to hit all on everything about Dei, we'll come back to this topic for sure on this podcast, but I think that my question for all of you right now is, if there is a tech leader listening, and he she, they feel that they may not have the support at their school to get their hands dirty in this work? Where do they start? What do they do? It's hard to insert yourself sometimes, right? So do you guys have any advice? If somebody's looking at the DI framework and says, Yeah, I do some of this stuff. I think I should have a conversation with my head or with the department or academic leaders at the school? Where do they start? What's your advice?

Bill Stites 51:20
Here at MK, I get up and I go, and I go in people's offices, and I just I simply start having a conversation. I don't send an email.

Christina Lewellen 51:28
So you bring your New Jersey, into the New Jersey,

Bill Stites 51:32
I bring all that his bill. And for people that know, I don't hesitate to ask questions or to start a conversation. But no, I'll go in. And I'll just simply ask, like, what are we doing here? I hear we're trying to do this, what does this look like? Or can I talk to you about this? I have questions. Because I think when you go in and you engage with the people who are leading these initiatives in the school, and you go in with general care, and thought, with questions that are grounded, not only in your personal growth, but being able to support the school in the ways in which they say they're doing their work, I think people are willing to open up and share and bring you in, and then they actually know that you care, and that you have questions, and that this is an area where we may need to focus. Because a lot of times they may not know that, you know, these other things are in place in the areas for which we have ownership of and some degree of control over and can help them see things in new and different ways. So get up, move around, start talking to people and put yourself in there. If you want to be seen as somebody who can help move things forward.

Hiram Cuevas 52:49
I would say it all starts with relationships, and keep on cultivating those relationships, because you end up having conversations that are often unrelated to the field, that you may be actually there to talk to them about. If people had an opportunity to watch Bill in action at his school, I followed him around MK a this past Monday. And when he walks into a room, everybody knows he's larger than life. But everybody smiles when they see Bill. And that's because he genuinely cares about what's going on in their lives. How is the technology working for them? How can he help? How can his team help. And I find that the best schools out there have tech leaders that have taken the time to really engage in those relationships, they try to be outside of their office more than inside their offices, more than anything else, because that's where the action is. And you have to start with that relationship so that you can get a sense of what the emotional state of your campus is, in regards to a variety of issues. And this is just one of many that schools are dealing with. And if you do need to build a support system, what better way then to get out there and and rely on the group that you are constantly coming in contact with on a regular basis to kind of spread those seeds that can sprout into the robust conversations that you can have at your school?

Allison Ross 54:09
Yes to everything else that I've like I just made, like some little notes of how I would respond. And then you both you both said everything I was trying to say it is about relationships.

Christina Lewellen 54:20
Well, and I think Allison, if I could direct it, like the thing that you can help with to take it one step further with the relationships is fear. So in the advisory committee, we've talked a lot about like, depending on your personal situation, you may say, I'm questioning or trying to get involved from a position of privilege. So I would love for you, you know, because you come to a lot of our leadership at ATLIS and you're like, look, as a white woman. I recognize my place of privilege and you always bring that into our committee meetings. So what if a listener is saying yes, the relationships are important, but also what right do I have? have to be a part of this conversation. Can you help us with that piece?

Allison Ross 55:02
Absolutely. First off, if you're listening to this, and you're like, I don't know what to do. First, let me offer this up to you. Our dei Advisory Committee is amazing. And it's also a really safe space for people to come and ask questions. And all of our committee members, especially we just had this discussion in July, about how we want to make our committee meetings, that safe space where we can bounce ideas, and where we can say, Gosh, I'm struggling with this, let's think tank it together. And yes, I recognize that I am a white woman in the south, and I am doing diversity, equity and inclusion work. It took me a long time to really stand in this space, and say, This is what I want to do, and study and listen, and understand. Because I do see so many places where it's needed. I've said before Dr. Angeles quote, when you know better, you do better. And so I really struggled with in the beginning of why do I have the right to say anything, I am in a space where I am learning, I am listening, I am hearing the stories of others. That is why I want to do this work. And then I want to take that information and elevate those stories, and elevate those voices. Because I can do something, if not me, then who. And I think it is really interesting sometimes because people feel like they don't have the right to say they're doing that work. And I'm here to tell you don't make it about you. This is not about me, this is about I have learned something that is imperative for students to be able to have an experience in education. And I can teach others that this is a necessary component of their classroom structure. This is a necessary component for their educational experience. And so let me guide you, I love coaching people, it's my thing. And so I can coach people on how to make this better for all children in their classroom. And so that's my take, as a white woman, it is not about me, I told the committee the first day whenever I accepted the position as chair, I said, if I'm the face of this committee, I am not doing my job. Because I don't want to be I want to empower you. I want to elevate the voices on the committee that have a story to tell, that someone can identify with. And so build those relationships. And if you are in a place where you you feel like there's some ambiguity and what your next step is, reach out, connect with me connect with the committee. Bring that to the safe space to ask questions. Because now especially if you're listening to this podcast, now you know better so you have to do better. Right?

Christina Lewellen 57:58
I think that that's right, what a great pep talk. Thank you so much, Ellison. That is a wonderful, encouraging note to end on. Because we know this work is tough work. Thank you for bringing your wisdom to both our podcasts, but also to ATLIS in your role as a committee leader. It's been such a pleasure to have you on the podcast. We're still kind of new at all this but man, you make it pretty easy, doesn't she?

Bill Stites 58:23
And thank you so much.

Allison Ross 58:25
Thank you so much for having me. I love these conversations. And I'm happy to connect anytime. With that

Christina Lewellen 58:31
we will wrap up another episode of talking technology with ATLIS. Our huge thanks to Alison Ross for spending so much time with us today. And for the tremendous leadership she's brought to the ATLIS community. Hey, guys, stay tuned, follow us and make sure that you're downloading all the episodes as we get better and better at this game. We keep bringing you more and more topics. And hey, let us know what you want us to talk about because we're here. So till next time, everybody. Thank you, Hiram. And thank you, Bill. Have a great day. Thank you.

Narrator 59:02
This has been talking technology with ATLIS produced by the Association of technology leaders and independent schools. For more information about ATLIS and ATLIS membership, please visit the ATLIS.org If you enjoyed this discussion, please subscribe, leave a review and share this podcast with your colleagues in the independent school community. Thank you for listening.