From Tech Leader to School Admin, Stacia McFadden Tackles AI, Cell Phone Policies and DEI

Narrator 00:02
Welcome to Talking Technology with ATLIS, the show that plugs you into the important topics and trends for technology leaders all through a unique Independent School lens, we'll hear stories from technology directors and other special guests from the Independent School community, and provide you with focused learning and deep dive topics. And now please welcome your host. Christina Lewellen,

Christina Lewellen 00:25
Hello everyone, and welcome back to Talking Technology with ATLIS. I'm Christina Lewellen, the executive director of the Association of Technology Leaders in Independent Schools.

Bill Stites 00:34
And I am Bill Stites, the Director of Technology at Montclair Kimberly Academy in Montclair, New Jersey, and

Hiram Cuevas 00:40
I'm Hiram Cuevas, Director of Information Systems and Academic Technology at St Christopher School in Richmond,

Christina Lewellen 00:46
Virginia. Hello, gentlemen. Good morning. How are you today?

Bill Stites 00:49
Just Jim dandy.

Hiram Cuevas 00:50
Oh, peachy, peachy. Just got through the French AP, oh,

Christina Lewellen 00:53
AP, season. Gotta love that. I have an interesting story that I want to share with you guys briefly before we welcome our guest today. Not long ago, Ashley and I went to Columbus Academy, one of our member schools, great Independent School in Columbus, Ohio, and we don't do this very often, but the team there asked us to do a PD day for teachers, for the faculty, and it was focused on AI. So in the beginning of the day, we asked them all kind of on a scale, a sliding scale, from like, I hate AI, I've never used it. I am not a fan. All the way to I use it every day, and I'm comfortable with it. Where they all stood in the beginning of the day, and we had them point to one side of the room or the other side of the room. And so in the beginning of the day, many of them pointed to the side of the room. I don't mess with it. I don't like it. I don't have time for this. I'm not playing with AI tools. Then fast forward through the day. What Ashley and I essentially decided to do was we took all of the AI tools that are in edtech right now, we narrowed it down to four, and we sort of spent time teaching them how to use the four tools, and we also allowed them to redo some lessons and some units, like working in real time with our help. And by the end of the day, we asked the same question. And as you can imagine, not all of them pointed to the opposite wall of like, I'm all in on AI. This is incredible, but at least there was a moving of the needle. And I would say that, you know, there might have been a 50% improvement for most teachers, including there's a gentleman that has taught art at that school for more than 50 years, and he came up to us at the end and sort of said, you definitely have taught this dog a new trick. So where I wanted to start today was to talk to you guys a little bit about how teachers are doing. I know we talk a lot about AI, and I know we'll be able to ask our guests about this today, but how are your teachers doing? Are they pointing at the side of the room where they never want to touch AI? Are you starting to see the needle move at all in terms of looking at tools? And finally, I think that what helped with what Ashley and I did, is that we narrowed this big, big, overwhelming world of AI tools down to four, and we just focused on those four. What do you guys think about that?

Bill Stites 03:09
Here at MKA we've been hitting it from a couple of different angles, and one of the most recent ones I'll point to, and I think I mentioned this earlier, is we've engaged with Eric Hudson. We've had him in twice to work with individual groups, small groups, I should say, of like Upper School English teachers who really had a lot of questions, a lot of hesitation, a lot of uncertainty around it. And then this last time that we had him here, we kind of broadened that out, so we worked with teachers and departments across all of our grade levels. So that was great because we have really committed when we do full school PD, as well as when we're doing small group, professional learning. You know that happens at each campus. We've really committed to focusing on AI and building fluency and building comfort and building understanding around that. And the other flip side of this is that we are continuing to talk about guidelines and policy as these things change, and making sure that we are working to and towards aligning that with mission and our learning goals. So the way in which we've kind of come at it is really from this whole school administrative support level in terms of where are we saying we buy in and support this from a school teaching and learning mission standpoint, and then how are we supporting that from the professional development standpoint, knowing that this is changing constantly and bringing in people and resources To speak to it, which we often always find, is that outside voice tends to carry a little bit more weight at times. So bringing Eric in has been great. And Eric, the best thing about him is that he is happy to talk about AI and the pros and cons of it. It's not just AI is great. You should be using a. AI, but here are all the things that you need to consider. So that's where we've gone with it. To this point,

Hiram Cuevas 05:04
we're definitely moving the needle. And I reemphasized what Paul Turnbull mentioned during his AI keynote at ATLIS, which was all schools are on this continuum in their journey of using AI. And it's fair to say Mid Pacific is in that top 10% area. I mean, they're really, really pushing the needle hard. I would say for us, it started back in the summer. We ended up having a really good faculty. PD, when some engaged conversations, and that needle has moved throughout the year to the point where we've been able to present to our board, and just last week, I presented to our alumni foundation alumni board about where we are in each of the three divisions. To Bill's point, you know, we were talking about setting up guidelines, developing principles and guardrails so that not only do our teachers experience success, but our students experience success. I think too much of it initially, and it's hard to believe it's only been one year in terms of these discussions, but it's been very, very rich in terms of the growth that has happened. But many people were a fearful or thought that they were cheating themselves professionally with using AI as part of their lexicon and also their day to day, but also our students were very worried in terms of what are the ramifications from an Honor Council perspective. So I think we are making this journey. It's slow. Bill mentioned also having Eric Hudson. I'll mention it again. I'm jealous that he had Eric. I'd love to have Eric come to St Christopher's at some

Christina Lewellen 06:38
point. Let's not fight over Eric. But been a wonderful

Hiram Cuevas 06:42
journey, and we are looking at some other tools right now that we can deploy on our campus that can take that needle and move it a little bit further. I'd say we're probably in the in the 30 to 40% range in terms of teacher utilization and acceptance of utilization, in terms of looking at some of the operational aspects of teaching and learning that they can become more efficient with, and now that they have this personal connection, they are able to implement that further into their classrooms.

Christina Lewellen 07:11
That's awesome. I'm really looking forward to getting into this with our guest today, because I want to hear what's going on at her school as well. I am so pleased. This is one we've been waiting for, and I know she'll be worth the wait. Please. Welcome to the podcast. Stacia McFadden,

Stacia McFadden 07:29
Hi. How's everybody doing?

Christina Lewellen 07:31
We're so good. Thank you so much for joining us on talking tech with ATLIS. Stacia, you are a staple in this community, and you also have such an interesting path that you know your journey has been interesting, your goals, you are so articulate about what you want to accomplish in the Independent School world, I just can't wait to get into all of it with you. But let's start with some introductions. So tell us a little bit about where you are, where you work, what your role is like, and the school that you serve,

Stacia McFadden 08:00
sounds good. Well again, thanks for having me, and I cannot believe I'm with such an awesome crew this morning. Stacia McFadden, I am at Roland Hall School in Salt Lake City, Utah. I have officially been here about 11 months. I moved here from Atlanta, Georgia, where I was Chief Information Officer at the Levitt school, and so this is quite a change in so many ways, geographically, academically, it's a smaller school, but it's been quite a journey. You

Christina Lewellen 08:32
have had a journey, as many of us do, because we come into this role. And it wasn't always our goal to be a CIO, but that's sort of where you landed, and then you even took a step beyond that. So can you help map your career a little bit for everybody? Where'd you start and where do you want to end up? I

Stacia McFadden 08:50
grew up in South Carolina. My mom was a career educator. She worked over 40 years. My dad was a career Greyhound bus driver, and you just don't hear that anymore. So I grew up in that period, you know, I'm a child of the 70s, 80s. I don't mind dating myself with parents like that, you know, focus on education. Major in something practical, get a good job, get good benefits, and just do all the things. I was pretty good in math. And I love technology. My first experience with computers was an apple tui, and so I've decided to study computer science in college, and I got a great degree. Had some wonderful opportunities where I worked for the Department of Defense and had Top Level Security Clearance when I was, like, 19 years old. But then when I got out there and thought I wanted to go to grad school for it just wasn't what I wanted to do. I was like, Oh, this is I don't want to be a programmer for life. I'm not an introvert. I can't sit in a cubicle coding all day. So I left grad school after a month, and my dad was so disappointed. My advisor in undergrad was so disappointed. I felt like I was a loser and. Had. I didn't know what I wanted to do, but IBM had been recruiting me, so I went to go work for IBM for about three and a half years in New York. Anybody heard of FishKill or Poughkeepsie? I was up there in my early 20s as an SAP programmer, of all things. Discovered I didn't like that, so I tried different things, worked myself up to corporate headquarters where I was supporting executives doing network stuff, but when the opportunity came for me to take a buyout, I was like, deuces. Like, this isn't my jam. I found a lot more fulfillment in the community service I was doing. I was mentoring young girls who were interested in STEM I was a mentor at SUNY New Paltz with our the National Society of Black Engineers group. And so I think I was running away from education because my mom, her sisters, her brothers, like my aunties, my granddads, they were all educators. And I was like, that's just not to me. But guess what? It was in my heart. And since I was in New York, I was like, You know what? Let's try Teachers College at Columbia. It was the only place I applied to. I put all my eggs in that basket, and I studied computing and education. And so I wanted to tie in the technology with the education piece. And that's where I really became passionate about integration. It was one of those new things. It was on Horizon. I got to do some great things while I was there. So my first job out of grad school was at a public charter school in Washington, DC, and their needs were a little different. I wanted to do a lot of integration stuff. They just really wanted to focus on math and English, and I get that for that demographic of students. And so during my free periods, I was collaborating with teachers to try just different things, so I had no breaks, but I was just really passionate about what technology could do for those students and when I'm the career trajectory just wasn't going far enough in the public school arena, I switched over to independent schools where I was a technology coordinator and got involved with some really great educational technology people in the DMV area through Ames, the Association of Independent Maryland schools. And I think that's where it all kind of took off for me. So started out as a coordinator. Was at St Patrick's Episcopal Day School for six years. Shout out to them. I love my wolf hounds. And then I moved to Atlanta. I started out as a middle school tech integrator, got promoted to a K 12 position, and that's when my world started expanding. And I was like, You know what? There's probably a little bit more. I want to do it education, not just the technology side. So I applied to Klingenstein and got my M, E, D in educational leadership. And the pandemic happened while I was in grad school, and so being on the forefront of that, in helping our school at the time, which is love it in Atlanta, pivot, go virtual, and all those things, I really got to demonstrate my leadership skills beyond just technology integration. They saw that I was a great communicator. I liked building community, showcasing all the wonderful things that the teachers were doing at the time. And I appreciate that my boss at the time saw the potential I had, and I was promoted to Chief Information Officer. So I did that job for three years, and then my heart just expanded a little bit more to say, like, hey, Sasha, maybe one day you might want to be ahead of school. Like, I just can't even believe I'm saying that out loud. It's a lot

Christina Lewellen 13:30
say it again, because I think many people believe that this is your not too distant future, eventual path.

Stacia McFadden 13:38
I mean, I just really wonder if I'm crazy in this world that we're living in. We know what that brings. It's not an easy job. But as I was looking for other opportunities beyond CIO, a lot of people were like, You need to be more student facing and Christina and Bill and Hiram. I think you all know my personality, like I was never the CIO to stay to my office, I was an advisor to students. I was a sponsor for different student groups. My office was a safe space for kids. And so I was like, Really, y'all want me to check another box. And you know, I know that ATLIS is we know we've been on our forefront of DEI stuff. So I think it's safe to say that I felt like I was that over credentialed black woman. Here I am with two masters, both from Ivy League, and yet people still want me to prove that I need to be more student facing like it was just unbelievable. But I was like, Hey, if you want me to check that box, I'll do it. And so when it came time to look for jobs, I had an opportunity to do some facilitation out here in Salt Lake City. And someone said, Hey, you should apply for this assistant principal job. And I was like, but in Salt Lake, but I did it.

Christina Lewellen 14:49
Big change from Atlanta.

Stacia McFadden 14:52
Big change, but I was an empty nester. I had some flexibility. I came out here and was out here for three days in Utah. Beautiful. I keep saying they took a risk on me, but people said I should change that and say they made an investment in me, and they offered me the position, and I have not looked back. This has been quite a year where I've fallen in love with my community and the students my colleagues and I do have a lot to bring with a technology background, which I can't wait to dig more into, but that's where I am. So it's incredible. I guess the road to my journey, right?

Christina Lewellen 15:29
I love it. And, you know, it's interesting, because where you might have kind of reacted in some kind of way about being encouraged to be student facing, I know that you have worked with ATLIS on some career mapping workshops. And I love listening to you talk, because you always encourage the technology community, when they're thinking about their careers, to not overlook the student facing opportunities. So can we go to that a minute? I mean, even though it might have hit you in in a way, in terms of being encouraged to do that, there had to have been some outcomes that you're proud of that helped you in your journey. And now look at you going into administrative leadership. So do you still stand by that assertion that technology folks should get as student facing as they possibly can in their roles? Well, I

Stacia McFadden 16:15
think that anybody working in education should right. I mean, the purpose of schools is children. And so if we are not staying close to the purpose of why we are doing the jobs that we're doing, no matter what you're doing, whether you're in a business office, whether you're in development, you've got to get a pulse of the students, and they're what keeps me young. The reason I think technology in this regard, is so important, is because these students only know technology, right? Like, I came up when there was analog, you know, I was just talking about the Apple 2e there were, like, two colors on that screen, black and green, and look how far we've come. So like, how else are we going to, like, connect with our students and engage with them if we don't meet them where we are? And so I think technology actually is a perfect place to have that collaboration, get to know students and really be that educator that we all say we want to be. Yeah,

Christina Lewellen 17:10
so before I let the guys jump in, when we started this morning, we were talking about moving the needle on AI. It's a question that I've asked before. We keep coming back to moving the needle on AI on this podcast, because I just want to track it. I want to see how our schools are doing. I'm sort of sticking a stake in the ground because I have a feeling that at the end of this summer, independent schools are going to be doing some cool things, especially the educators. So can you tell us a little bit about the population at Rowland Hall and where you guys are on your AI journey, and then I know the guys are chomping at the bit to come and get involved. Yeah,

Stacia McFadden 17:45
well, I'm so blessed to work with some amazing colleagues who, actually, they were already having this conversation before I got here. So shout out to Ben Smith. He's one of our instructors in the Upper School. Roland Hall has a little under 1000 students. We're pre k3 through 12. Our upper school is about 300 students, and so we are those types. We don't want to be afraid of AI. It's here. It's not going anywhere. We've already crafted a statement that is on our website of how, like, what is our position on AI, and it was really crafted for our upper school, but crafted in such a way that it could be adopted and tailored for our lower divisions. And so we were very intentional about making sure that our parents, our constituents, our faculty, knew where we stood, and we had some professional development sessions just internally, where we talked about it, and we wanted people who were skeptical, we wanted people who were afraid, but we also wanted those embracers to be a part of the conversation. And so I feel really good about where we are in terms of AI. We have teachers who've introduced it and made it a part of their class, because we want our teachers to play with it, but we also want our students to do so, and it's been good. Now. I heard you guys talking about in the opening, it has different ramifications for Honor Council. The beautiful thing there is that my colleagues know our students voices, and so when they try to take shortcuts and use it to write a paper or do something else with it, they can tell right away. And I love that. And we don't go straight to punitive we go to like, let's have a conversation. We've had to have those challenging conversations, but in the long run, I think we're all better for it. And also, I just want to give a shout out to our college counseling office too, because they've also adopted it, and they talked about how it's changed the game for college admissions. And so in all areas, we have just kind of embraced it and talked about like, how are we going to utilize this and not just shy away from it? So Stacia,

Bill Stites 19:48
one of the questions I have about that is, how are those conversations? How are those structured? You know, I mentioned bringing Eric in when we had, like, set days for PD, and then what we're trying to do. With faculty in these departments in the times that we have available to us. How does that structure for support look like for you at Roland based on your policy and the decisions you made?

Stacia McFadden 20:10
It's been very informal. So I love that you guys have brought in Eric, and that might be something that we look in in the future. How do we bring some outside voices in? But I think we really wanted to just get an idea and get our pulse on what we were feeling internally. And so they were just like brainstorming sessions. They were just some turn and talks. They were just putting post it notes up to get people's ideas. And then we started putting those ideas into categories and seeing exactly where we needed to kind of focus. It's been very informal. It's been very grassroots, so to speak, but we do have these opportunities in the summertime where faculty can get together and propose ideas where they can go deeper, and that's what we are planning on doing. So the last thing that we've been working on, Bill is we're trying to get more. I hate to say buy in, but, you know, that's a word that we use buy in from our faculty to help, like, distribute leadership and take on more ownership of things. We have faculty that are specifically talking about AI, and so we're just going deeper with that work. We just started that, literally, like two weeks ago. And so they'll report out at our next division meeting, which is today, about how we start to converge on all of our divergent ideas around that. So stay tuned. It's a work in progress. Yeah, that's

Christina Lewellen 21:24
what I'm thinking. I think that by time we get to the end of the summer, a lot of schools will have had a hot minute to kind of get their brains wrapped around this a bit more, for

Stacia McFadden 21:34
sure. And you know, one thing I'm trying to do as assistant principal, because Bill, you know, I just kind of talked about how the faculty are having the conversations, the conversations with the students are even more crucial, right? So I've had to have conversations like just yesterday with a student who they're under a lot of pressure right now, they're taking AP exams, finals are coming up, and so before thinking they're like, oh, there's this tool. Let me try this. And again, those conversations are hard, but also we want them to do it now while they're in high school, and they can recover from it before they get to college, and there might be really harsh consequences to plagiarism or something like that. So you know, we're making it all about a teachable moment for our students. So

Hiram Cuevas 22:20
Stacia, since your arrival, which obviously has a tremendous amount of energy surrounding the technology realm, where was the needle when you arrived? And where is it now? I'm curious to see how quickly the adoption took place now that you have this leadership role.

Stacia McFadden 22:36
Yeah, we, you know, we couldn't sit on it. Hiram, like it was really in the infant stages. When we got here, people hadn't experimented with it. They hadn't even created, like a chat GPT account just to try it out. And so that first start was like, hey, just try it out. And I told them some ways I used it just personally, like one day I was at home, it was like, okay, chat GPT, I have shrimp, garlic and something in my cupboard. Give me a recipe, and it did, and it was amazing. And so then from there, I told them how, with all the letters I have to write, how I started training chat GPT, like my style of writing, and then putting stuff in there, and it was making me more efficient with some things like that. So they were like, try it out for comments, not that it has to be the actual comment that you put for your students, but just watch how we can make your job more efficient. And so I think giving examples of how I was using it, and then they were seeing examples of how other colleagues were doing it. And then, of course, when students started using it, and it became more and more apparent in our Honor Council, we knew we couldn't sit on it, and so we had to start making some changes. So like, the second month here, I had to deal with some disciplinary issues around AI usage, and we were, like, literally building the plane because we were flying it, and how to respond to those. And then we had to start training our teachers, like, Okay, I can't be the first point of contact for all of these. Here are some strategies you can do in the classroom to prevent this, and then if it happens in the classroom, I'm happy to notate it as a warning, but I really need you to help me with this, because it can't just be a disciplinary issue. It has to be something that we are really instilling in our students, so that is also evolved. And so I think we pivoted, adapted really quickly. So it

Hiram Cuevas 24:23
sounds like you all moved that needle quite a bit already in your short tenure, which a doesn't surprise me at all. I would love to follow up with the item you mentioned about using it for comments. Depending on the schools that I have encountered with this, there's some that have some really stringent rules about using AI and comments in general, as it relates to report card comments and then recommendations for colleges and things of that nature. So how are you bridging that? Because some teachers feel like they're cheating, which is, if you're early in the stage of using AI, a lot of teachers felt like it's not. My authentic self. I love the fact that you were training it to learn your voice. Can you expand on that? Yeah,

Stacia McFadden 25:05
so I have to write a lot of disciplinary, kind of formal writings, and they could be tedious, depending on how many infractions are coming in and just the number of fires I'm putting out daily. I had to figure out ways to just make my life easier and so I could feed an old letter in there and then say, hey, I need it to be for this student for this inspection. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And it would give me a rough draft. I wasn't in love with it, or didn't maybe like it fully. But then I could take that draft and make it my own. And so that just cut down on some of the other things, if like, having to write a letter from scratch, and you know, it was still my voice. It was my voice originally, it was still parts of my voice when I put in the edits, and then I could just take it, and that really saved me, like, hours of my day. You should see me in here, just like, I want to get this letter right. I don't want a parent to be offended. I want the student to know they're not being judged. Like, there's so many things that go into disciplined kids, but I just really wanted the letter to be perfect, and so I just had to find a way to make my life easier for that, I would love to challenge teachers to think about it differently. It's not cheating, it's using a tool. It's being resourceful. Use it as a starting point, not as the end point. And so that's where we're trying to push back a little bit to have teachers thinking differently about it. I

Hiram Cuevas 26:26
love that. You said, start with it, and not the end point. That's the key message there, because I know Bill and I have had a couple of conversations. One was with my wife. Another one was his wife, and they both felt like they were cheating. They're both teachers, and I think they're in different places. Today,

Stacia McFadden 26:40
you were also mentioning recommendation letters. And for a lot of our students, you know, I mentioned that our my school is a little smaller, 300 students, but for a graduating class of like 65 to 70 kids who primarily go to get recommendation letters from our humanities teachers, that's a lot of recommendation letters to write. And so again, it's all about resourcefulness, because we're trying to give them time to write these letters, which means we either have to hire subs or have to ask other people to fill in with them, to give them time to write those letters. Just imagine how that could cut down on some of that time if they're just using it as a resource to get started and knock out 30 recommendation letter. So again, I think it's just like a rethinking of how we're using it. So

Christina Lewellen 27:25
Stacia, you know, I think that one of the things that folks are interested in when it comes to your journey is the fact that you made this leap, and sometimes that's hard to leave a technology role and then be seen in more of an administrative role. Can you talk a little bit about that? Was it tricky? And do you have any advice having gone through it and made that leap over to admin? Do you have any recommendations or thoughts for folks who have similar career goals?

Stacia McFadden 27:53
I do. I think it was less tricky because I changed schools so like, when I moved up at my previous school, going from like, say, peer to like leader, I felt like that was trickier, having people see me differently, where I couldn't share as much information and had to, you know, be more aligned with senior leadership and stuff like that. That was a harder leap than totally changing schools. I thought it was gonna be one of those things where people would question my street credibility, and thankfully, I was able to deal with that in different ways. So I think having a technology background has definitely been to my benefit here, because of systems and processes, I've been able to put in place, using spreadsheets, collecting data, using data, those kind of things, people appreciate it, and so I think it's just finding a way to maximize your skills, to show people that like You can do this. So

Bill Stites 29:01
Stacia, one of the things that kind of attach onto that, and one of the things I was really curious about is, literally, just before the podcast, I'm going through my email, and I noticed that there was something that came through from nais, and they were talking about cell phone policies in schools, and they did a report on it, and we can include a link to it in the show notes, because I think it's got some very interesting data on that, and it's particularly stuck with me because I've been in multiple meetings here about cell phone use and what it's doing from a distraction standpoint, what it's doing from a student mental health perspective, and overall well being piece. And while I would love to have a conversation about what your thoughts are on cell phone policies in schools and vis a vis this report, one of the questions I have is coming into the role that you have, and you've touched on it with the AI piece. But how have you been able to and you just mentioned it, how have you been able to leverage your IT? Background? To helping shape things and be a trusted voice in this area because of your background and how that then can apply to those things where, I wouldn't say traditionally, but oftentimes, we're not necessarily in those conversations you now are, and you've got this background, and what has that done for you there, and just for the school in general?

Stacia McFadden 30:22
Yeah, that's a great question, Bill, and I think it's just for me experience. I've done the technology side for almost 20 years. I have a son who's 21 and so we had to navigate those conversations as well as a mom. And so the first conversations we had here concerning cell phones was actually cheating. So I came from a school where, even in the upper school, there were the shoe, kind of like holders for kids to check their phones. We had no policy here around cell phones, other than, you know, you're encouraged not to use them, but there was no way for kids to check phones. So I was like, Oh, this is going to be interesting, coming from that environment. To this environment. And then I was able to, thankfully, build a community of trust where students weren't afraid to tell me things that were going on. And students started coming to me and telling me how their friends were using phones to cheat. Right? They were doing this thing they called meatballing or something where they would put the phone in between their legs during an exam, and teachers weren't thinking to check for those kind of things, and so that's where the conversation started. Kids were telling me how their peers were using the phone for inappropriate things, and then I could go back and tell the teachers, and they were shocked. Some weren't, but it made them rethink how they were having this discussion in their classrooms. And so really, it was just about again. Remember I told you, you got to talk to the kids and have a pulse on the kids. And so when the students were coming in and telling me those things, it made a world of difference. The other things I am concerned about, though, is the addiction, the distraction, for sure, and I think a lot of that is relating to pedagogy and how engaging our teachers are. And so we haven't had as many problems with that yet, because I think our kids are engaged, or high flyers, they want to do well, and so forth. And so we haven't had as many issues with some of the other things because I've also been keeping up with that listserv and how schools are handling it. Fortunately, we haven't had to deal with that yet. So

Christina Lewellen 32:25
it's interesting this article that bill is referencing from nais, it says that 93% of participants in this survey report that their school is currently either regulating or outright prohibiting student cell phone use on the school grounds or in the classroom. So that's a pretty high watermark, but only 7% of respondents indicate that their schools don't want the phones at school at all. They prohibit the phones from being on campus and like leave at home. You're an upper school administrator. Would you have a revolt on your hands if you tried to be in that 7% of schools that said, Don't even bring it. And frankly, is the revolt from the students or from the parents?

Stacia McFadden 33:13
That's the question, right? I think it might be more from the parents who are like, Well, how do I get in touch with my kids during the day? Uh, you call the front office, you send us an email, we'll get the message to them. And you know, I'm also curious about that 93% because I know a lot of those policies are sometimes in middle school. So for K 12 school, you know, a lot of that is in the lower grades. So I'd be curious about the breakdown of that, but it's been interesting because I've been reading the ones about the schools that have their phones checked into those pouches that you can seal magnetically, which I actually think is a great idea. I think we'd have to ease into it. One thing I did hear was I formed an advisory council with the students who interviewed me, and so I would take an idea like that to them and see, like, what they thought, why we would do it first. I think the why is always important. So if we were seeing increases in mental health challenges and all those social emotional challenges, if we saw like, an uptick of over reliance on phones and things like that, I'd want us to kind of get to the why. And I think my students would have some really good ideas about how we might navigate those waters if we were to do that. And then, you know, of course, we would have to take it to the parents. One thing I'm learning is communication and transparency are so important. And so if you don't really know your wife or doing something other than, Oh, I read this article, it's not going to fly. So getting to know your community is, I think the best part, or the most critical part, in making a decision like that,

Christina Lewellen 34:45
I love that. And I mean, we talk a lot about student agency and trying to get students involved in the solutions. Another last little nugget that I'll have you reflect on from the survey is that most division heads have seen some improvement at. A rate of 44% or a lot of improvement at 29% in their students experiences. And I think that this data point is in terms of if they lock down the cell phones, that basically means that you've got more than 75% ish saying that if they lock down their phones, the students are having a better experience at school, and that speaks to that mental health thing. We've also had conversations in and around this podcast about, like, if all the students have no phones, then there's no peer pressure to have the phone. So it has to be right, like an all or nothing, yeah, kind of thing, because if some students have bones, then it's hard for the ones that put it away and behave and follow the rules, they feel like they're missing out on their social experience. So what are your thoughts on that? Agreed?

Stacia McFadden 35:50
I think in that case, it's all or nothing, or say, an entire grade or nothing, I believe in scaffolding, right? And so if it's one of those things where ninth graders maybe don't do it, and then you start releasing the reins a little bit. I don't know I'd be willing to try that. Or in classes you don't have it. You can have it at lunch, you know, having some parameters and some guardrails about it, but I agree with you, it's really hard if you're not enforcing it. For all of them,

Bill Stites 36:19
this is where for us, there's a lot of question from parents about, you know, like, because we provide our laptop, so every kid's got a laptop, so part of it is almost like, it's almost like a screen time question, because then they're like, you know, you're giving this laptop. What are you providing access to? What are you blocking? How are you dealing with these mental issues, these gaming issues, these social issues, and they're like, what can you do on your end? And we're like, we can do a little bit. But if every kid's got a phone and you don't have a defined policy, and you don't have anything in your home that you know you're talking to your kids about to use, we can do all this work, or we can try to do all this work to mitigate exposure and these types of issues on the devices that we're providing. But once you put a phone in someone's hand, if the school doesn't have a defined policy around it, if parents aren't talking with their children about the use of it, and that communication with the students and the school and even the parents with the school is that if we're going to lay out a policy around this, these are the reasons why this report does a Great job of producing at least some numbers that you can use to show how it will improve social well being, how it'll improve engagement, lesson, distraction, all of those pieces. That's where it gets helpful. But if you don't have those conversations, if you don't know your community, as you said, and if you don't work in it, from a what I'll call a parent professional development standpoint, as well as a school teacher student. PD, thing you're not going to be able to connect all the dots, and I think you're in a very interesting position now, where someone like myself, I can talk about the technical pieces of it, but I don't have control over the whole kind of, like school wide piece, whereas in an administrative role such as the one you're in now, you've got the technical chops to talk about it, as well as the juice to get the job done, as I always like to say, to get those different areas hit. You know what I mean, whether it's with the faculty, whether it was and it carries a little bit more weight. So I think that puts you in, like, this rock star role of really being able to take on these challenges in ways that I think people without your background necessarily aren't going to be able to do. So I think you're in a great spot. I'm jealous of it. Oh,

Stacia McFadden 38:32
don't be. But yeah, I mean, I love having those conversations, and I've been saying that for years, even when I was academic technologist and talking to parents. It's all about partnership, right? You can't just depend on the school to do the policing. There's got to be the conversations that are happening at home. We still are having those conversations. I think in this role, though, the one thing I would love to do better, and this would be something I'm thinking about next year, is more parent education on the front side versus the parent education happening as a result of a disciplinary matter. So like, you know, we already have our AUP in place. All of our parents sign it, all of our students sign it. Do they really read it? Nope, not until I have to give them some consequence saying, you know, you weren't supposed to install this virtual private network, right? And so that's the part I really enjoy about having the chats to talk that language and explaining what a VPN is, because most parents have no clue what it is and how, like, even if we put all these blocks on the router and filters and everything else, when your child installs that VPN, they get around it. Having those conversations have been crucial, but I can't do it alone, because, like you said, Every kid has a phone. They're connected to data which is not blocked on our router. That's where I'm trying to have more of the conversation with the teachers of here are the kind of things our students can do that you need to be aware of, because they're not thinking of that either. And I love that, because. I'm coming from this role, I have a really great relationship with our technology team, who's amazing, and so we can have conversations about how we might want to modify our AUP, what policies might be in place, and they ask me because of the background. So I do love that about coming from the technology side to, as you say, a position with a little more juice.

Bill Stites 40:22
And I think that's the best thing, because a lot of times we would spend time explaining the technical hurdles around those things to someone in your position. I would love that to have somebody with that level of experience with what you've got, where you are, to be in that position here, because half the time it's like, All right, I've got to figure out how to, as I say, talk to them like a third grader. You know, how to bring the conversation down to a point where they can understand the technical limitations, so that we can then have the conversations around policy and all of those things. So again, it's great to be in that spot. Let's

Christina Lewellen 40:58
talk about the opposite of that, though. Stacia, so you did make this change from a technology CIO role to an administrative space. Are there things that surprised you? Are there issues or parts of your job that you weren't prepared for? I mean, you have such a varied education, and you've been in schools for a long time, but anything kind of take your breath away in the first bit of this transition is

Stacia McFadden 41:25
so funny, because it feels like I've been here for years. So I'm like, oh, what were my first weeks? Like, the learning curve was steep. I think the first thing I really tried to focus on was, like, staying in my lane, coming out of technology for 18 to 20 years, it was a different shift, and so I was very intentional about the things that I wanted to learn as an assistant principal versus the stuff I was so comfortable leaning on as a technologist. The blessing here at Roland Hall is I have a wonderful leader in my principal who knew my aspirations, she knows my aspirations, and she treats me more as a partner versus like a new person in this role. And so once I really got my footing here, because I'm over Honor Council, I'm over course registration, there were so many things that I wanted to kind of come in and just observe, but my students couldn't wait for me just to observe. They needed us to make some change, and so I learned quickly how to collaborate and create some allies here. So when it comes to having conversations with incoming parents about which courses they need to take to align with like our curriculum versus theirs. I knew I wasn't the expert on that, so I'm pulling in college counseling and asking them questions. I'm pulling in department chairs and asking them questions for all of those things Christina that were challenging for me in the beginning, I was open, I was curious. I wasn't afraid to tell them, like, here's something I'm not familiar with, can you help me? And being that vulnerable, I think was an asset and has allowed me to grow so much in this position. So now I'm having much more difficult conversations, but it was a lot of work at the beginning. I joked earlier, when we were just kind of warming up, that, like, since I'm in Utah, I do all things Utah. So, like, I learned how to ski, but I had to do those things because Monday through Friday, I work hard, like I'm not just working here during the school day, I go home, get comfortable, and I'm still working because I really wanted to prove to myself and to others that I was worth that investment of jumping careers. It hasn't been easy. There have been some surprises, but I think to answer your question specifically, a lot of leaders are like, Oh, my first year, I'm just going to observe. Sometimes your students and your colleagues can't wait for you to observe. You've got to go in there and start making some changes. And so that relationship building piece is important,

Christina Lewellen 44:01
and we talk a lot about how it's important for heads of school to understand enough technology to ask the right questions, and now that you have that foot in each canoe, if you were speaking to a peer in our space, a CIO technology director who's really struggling to get the attention of their head of school, any advice or guidance? Because obviously, we know heads of school are very busy, but technology is very dangerous and prevalent, and so we have to get our heads attention. We have to get the business offices attention. Any thoughts on that? Yeah.

Stacia McFadden 44:41
So before I was promoted at my former school, I wrote that article a while ago. Christina, you remember I used the analogy of having a folding chair at the table versus having a seat at the table. So I think the first part is like, how do we make sure our technology leaders have a seat at the table and at Rowland Hall, our technology, our CIO, does have a. Foot at the table, and has a really good relationship with the head. And I had that same relationship with my head at my previous school as well. So when articles came in that were relevant, I shared them. So for instance, Christina, when ATLIS put out that AI for Board Governance, I immediately sent that to our head and his assistant, because this is something that we're dealing with, and he needs to know about it. So I think the sharing of the resources, having your heads ear, all of those, are important, and then inviting them to ATLIS. I mean, I love when we see leaders that are outside of the technology realm at our conference, because technology touches every aspect of independent schools, every aspect of education. We'll

Christina Lewellen 45:46
make sure that we dig up that article and link it in the show notes, because I loved that analogy where you were like, if there's no chair, you bring your own folding chair and have these conversations. It's important.

Stacia McFadden 45:58
It's so important. Our kids need it. Our teachers need it. I think one of the big things we're looking at at independent schools, if you just look at our world right now, is, how do independent schools remain relevant? And so how are we always looking for those things that are going to put us above and keep our constituents not just happy, but knowing that we're a good place for their children to be, and if we're not having these conversations, it's just not working for us.

Bill Stites 46:25
Stacia, I mentioned when we were getting ready to get things started, really just missing the fact that you weren't at the conference this year, just how I felt like there was part of me that just wasn't whole without you there. But with that being said. I mean, having stepped into this new role and not being day to day in the technology that you once were, what do you miss? What are the things that you're like? Man, this was really just something I really enjoyed doing, and I don't have the opportunity to do it anymore. And things sound great where you are, and it sounds like you're having an absolute blast, but like, what are the things that you're like? I just want to get back into that just a little bit. Little bit and have some fun.

Stacia McFadden 47:04
Well, one is the people, for such a long time, technologists, have this there's a stereotype that we're all like geeky introverts, like awkward people. When you come to ATLIS, we are the coolest, right? I think about the pictures we've taken, the experiences that we had, I get the introvert thing.

Christina Lewellen 47:25
He's a liar,

Stacia McFadden 47:29
but I mean, I just miss the people we had so much fun. But then also, everyone at ATLIS was so smart, the conversations we were having, the forward thinking of ideas. I miss that a little bit, but I'm so glad that I still get the daily digest of the conversations happening on the discussion boards, because that keeps me connected to that or following all your posts on LinkedIn and things like that. So I'm still as connected as I possibly can be to ATLIS, but the thing I miss most is seeing you all in person like that. ATLIS conference was like a family reunion.

Christina Lewellen 48:07
I love it. It really is. It's such a great energy. Stacia, before we run out of time with you, knowing that you have a busy schedule, I'd like to stop down and talk about DEI. This is an important aspect in the work that you do. Can you tell us a little bit about how you're feeling about where independent schools are right now, and kind of the role that you play, either at your current school or your past school? You said you create a safe space for your students. So that's clearly a huge win. How do you approach the work? It's hard work. So how do you think about DEI work at schools?

Stacia McFadden 48:42
It's definitely hard work. I will say, being an independent school, there's a little bit of protection, if we look at the laws that are being placed in some of these more conservative states. And Utah has been hit by some of those removing DEI programs from universities, from government, from public schools, has taken a toll on a lot of my new friends who work in those spaces and their job titles had to change, or some of them just left and went to other states. So it's really hard to see what's happening on the outside, where we're kind of protected in our independent school bubbles. I think the hardest work here in our schools are that they're still predominantly white institutions, and so for kids who come from marginalized communities, how do you make this a place where they feel seen and where they can thrive? Coming from Atlanta, which is a lot more diverse, to Salt Lake City, a state where only one and a half percent of the people here are black, I don't know what the percentages are for, like people of color. Our school is really progressive, and we teach a lot of books and novels that have been banned in many places. And I love that our teachers do that. But. But then the hard work comes into place where there's only one black kid in that class, or one Asian kid in that class, and if all of these novels are so heavy, how does that impact the students in those classes? So that's where I feel like I've been able to have some meaningful dialog with teachers to kind of like say, Hey, here's some things just to kind of look out for with this student, or the students know they can come and check in with me about things that they might be talking about in class that aren't so comfortable. I think that's where the hard work is here. I will say we have a wonderful Office of Equity and Inclusion, where every month we have a different topic that everyone can come in talk about different things, from religious diversity to LGBTQ plus issues to instructional differences, because as you know, we also are seeing an uptick in neurodivergent students, and so they're always providing resources and opening spaces for the adults to have these conversations as they impact The learning that we're doing with our students. So it's important work. It's hard work, but it's so crucial. I went to an ethics class yesterday. They were having an Ethics Bowl, and to hear one of my white students say out of his mouth how important it was for there to be diverse voices, and how it's made such a difference in his experience, I was like, Yes, we're doing it right. And so that's the thing. Diversity, Equity and Inclusion does not just benefit those from the marginalized communities. It benefits us all. That's what I think I would love everyone to understand. It benefits us all.

Christina Lewellen 51:40
I love that. As we wrap up, I'd like to ask you, what is next for you? You're among friends, just, you know, big public platform here, but I have no doubt that whatever goal you set for yourself you will reach. What can we expect from Stacia McFadden in the future?

Stacia McFadden 51:59
My inside joke to my friends, since y'all are friends, is that my son, I'm gonna put in a plug young St Jude is gonna blow up, and he's gonna take care of his mama, and I'm gonna be like, Anthony Anderson's mom, who, like, goes to all the things and is like, the life of the party. Like folks,

Christina Lewellen 52:16
you need to understand, if you don't know stacia's Son, this is legit. He is in the music industry, and we will all know his name, I

Stacia McFadden 52:24
think, I think so. But regardless, and seriously, I love what I do. These kids bring me joy. My colleagues bring me joy. I love the challenge of solving problems and being creative. So the reason I was not at ATLIS, was because I'm participating in the nais aspiring heads program. So since I'm amongst friends, I am working towards that goal, and we'll see where that leads. But I think I'll, you know, give Utah a chance. And, you know, I think next year will be a little bit easier, since I've been able to create some systems and processes along the way, but I'm kind of excited about what's next. I kind of just go with the flow. You all know my story, and so I'm not afraid of change.

Christina Lewellen 53:14
You take on big things, and even when you have setbacks, you take on incredibly big things. It's been such a pleasure to kind of get to know you a little bit and hear about your journey. And I have no doubt that there are people who look up to you because you have made this leap into administration, and I know you're not done yet. So thank you for sharing your story with us, and you know, come back anytime. Oh, we're a fun group over here, and you bring a lot of energy to us, so you get us all wound up.

Stacia McFadden 53:43
Thank you so much. It's been a pleasure talking with you all today. Yeah,

Bill Stites 53:47
as one introvert to another, it was great, liar. It was great to get this done. He's such a liar.

Hiram Cuevas 53:57
Yeah? Liar, Hey,

Stacia McFadden 53:58
Bill, I think we become ambiverts. I gotta become an ambivert my older age. I know how to turn it on, but I also know how to go inside and, like, turn it off.

Bill Stites 54:10
Yeah, yeah, yep, exactly. We

Christina Lewellen 54:14
all need the time to turn it off. Well, thank you so much, Stacia. We are so grateful to you. Thank you for your time, and we appreciate you always.

Stacia McFadden 54:23
Thank you.

Hiram Cuevas 54:24
Thank you. Stacia,

Narrator 54:26
This has been Talking Technology with ATLIS, produced by the Association of Technology Leaders in Independent Schools. For more information about ATLIS and ATLIS membership, please visit the ATLIS.org if you enjoyed this discussion, please subscribe, leave a review and share this podcast with your colleagues in the independent school community. Thank you for listening.