Strategies for Influence and Career Growth in Independent Schools
In this episode of the ATLIS podcast, we dive into the challenges and opportunities facing technology leaders in independent schools, with insights from a leader in educational technology recruitment. We explore the importance of advocating for the value of technology departments, strategies for career advancement, and the evolving expectations of technology leaders. Gain valuable perspectives on navigating leadership roles and fostering a deeper understanding of technology's critical role in schools.
Resources
- 12M & Ed Tech Recruiting, management consulting and strategic hiring for schools
- ATLIS Compensation Benchmark Report 2025
- ATLIS Interactive Compensation Benchmark Dashboard
Transcript
Peter Frank 00:00:02
Phil, welcome to Talking Technology with ATLIS,
Peter Frank 00:00:05
the show that plugs you into the important topics and trends for
Peter Frank 00:00:08
technology leaders all through a unique Independent School lens.
Peter Frank 00:00:12
We'll hear stories from technology directors and other
Peter Frank 00:00:15
special guests from the Independent School community,
Peter Frank 00:00:17
and provide you with focused learning and deep dive topics.
Peter Frank 00:00:21
And now please welcome your host. Kristina Lewellen,
Christina Lewellen 00:00:25
Hello everyone, and welcome back to
Christina Lewellen 00:00:26
talking technology with Atlas. I'm Kristina Lewellen, the
Christina Lewellen 00:00:29
President and CEO of the Association of Technology
Christina Lewellen 00:00:32
Leaders in Independent
Bill Stites 00:00:33
Schools. And I am Bill Stites, the Director of
Bill Stites 00:00:36
Technology at Montclair Kimberly Academy in Montclair, New
Bill Stites 00:00:39
Jersey.
Hiram Cuevas 00:00:40
And I'm Hiram Cuevas, Director of Information
Hiram Cuevas 00:00:42
Systems and Academic Technology at St Christopher school in
Hiram Cuevas 00:00:45
Richmond, Virginia.
Christina Lewellen 00:00:47
Hello, gentlemen, and welcome. Finally,
Christina Lewellen 00:00:50
to the end of January, we're dating our recording, and I
Christina Lewellen 00:00:54
don't care, because this has been a very long month indeed.
Christina Lewellen 00:00:58
We're going to get to our guests super fast, but I want to start
Christina Lewellen 00:01:01
today and ask you to please tell me something good, because this
Christina Lewellen 00:01:05
month has been a long one. So please, Bill, tell me something
Christina Lewellen 00:01:07
good.
Bill Stites 00:01:08
I got something because you already dated us.
Bill Stites 00:01:10
I'm gonna say it, and I'm gonna upset a lot of people, I'm sure.
Bill Stites 00:01:14
Oh no,
Christina Lewellen 00:01:15
if you talk about football, go birds.
Bill Stites 00:01:20
Go birds, eagles, bleeding green till the day I
Bill Stites 00:01:24
die. Let's go. Let's beat the chief baby.
Unknown 00:01:27
Grease the poles in the city. Reach
Unknown 00:01:29
them up. Since
Christina Lewellen 00:01:30
we're recording this ahead of the
Christina Lewellen 00:01:32
Super Bowl, I definitely root for pretty much anybody who's
Christina Lewellen 00:01:35
got the ball. I think it's a very impressive sport. And so
Christina Lewellen 00:01:37
whoever's offense, I'm all about that team, but I do like the
Christina Lewellen 00:01:41
chiefs, as does my husband, even though his granddad played for
Christina Lewellen 00:01:44
the Packers. See, that's not allowed. I know, I know I'm a
Christina Lewellen 00:01:49
fair weather football and I grew up in Buffalo, so like, dude,
Christina Lewellen 00:01:52
like, I'm all sorts of mixed up. No, you can't like the chiefs,
Christina Lewellen 00:01:56
but I think that we need to make a bet right now on the pod,
Christina Lewellen 00:01:59
because we're recording on january 30. Here we go. If the
Christina Lewellen 00:02:02
Chiefs win, I expect you to step onto the main stage at the Atlas
Christina Lewellen 00:02:07
conference in a chief shirt.
Bill Stites 00:02:09
No, nope. Come on. Oh no, that never happened. God,
Bill Stites 00:02:13
no, never. What's
Christina Lewellen 00:02:15
the matter? Bill, you you don't believe in
Christina Lewellen 00:02:16
the birds. You don't think they're gonna win. I
Bill Stites 00:02:18
do, but my wife wants to buy balloons to
Bill Stites 00:02:21
decorate the house for a party. I will not let her bring
Bill Stites 00:02:24
balloons into the house. Of both themes. I'm like, you're not
Bill Stites 00:02:27
allowed to do it. I'd have to turn in my Philly card, and
Bill Stites 00:02:30
there's no way I'm doing that. Sorry, that's the bet that
Bill Stites 00:02:37
somebody that actually doesn't watch or follow football. That's
Bill Stites 00:02:41
the bet you kind of make. No no, Hiram, I
Christina Lewellen 00:02:44
need a tie breaker here. I feel like Bill
Christina Lewellen 00:02:45
won't take my bet because I would have stood up with a bird
Christina Lewellen 00:02:48
shirt on if they won. Yeah, but
Bill Stites 00:02:50
you don't care. You're from Buffalo and you're
Bill Stites 00:02:52
rooting for the chiefs. I mean seriously, and you've got, like,
Bill Stites 00:02:54
family blood, stop.
Hiram Cuevas 00:02:57
I'm gonna kind of go with Bill on this one. You
Hiram Cuevas 00:02:59
know, he's a die hard fan. Thank you, Hiram. And the only reason
Hiram Cuevas 00:03:05
I say that is because my son is a die hard Chicago Bears fan.
Hiram Cuevas 00:03:11
And I mean, talk about a walloping for years and years
Hiram Cuevas 00:03:15
and years, and he is still wearing his bears regalia, and
Hiram Cuevas 00:03:20
he will not switch, no matter what
Christina Lewellen 00:03:23
not happening. All right. Well, for
Christina Lewellen 00:03:25
the hardcore podcast listeners, whoever wins the Super Bowl,
Christina Lewellen 00:03:28
I'll make sure that I at least wear a suit of that color on the
Christina Lewellen 00:03:31
stage at the Atlas conference.
Bill Stites 00:03:33
Me and Kylie Kelsea, we won't put it on. We
Bill Stites 00:03:35
were talking about that before the pod. She won't do it. It's a
Bill Stites 00:03:38
sport. Travis, I won't, Nope, not gonna
Christina Lewellen 00:03:39
do it. All right, I respect your stance.
Christina Lewellen 00:03:41
Well, with that, it is time for us to welcome our guests to the
Christina Lewellen 00:03:45
show. Today, we have Gabe Lucas with us. Gabe is a long time
Christina Lewellen 00:03:49
friend of the pod and also a founder of Atlas, but we invite
Christina Lewellen 00:03:53
Gabe here today in his capacity leading 12 M and Ed Tech
Christina Lewellen 00:03:56
recruiting, he heads up some of the coolest searches that are in
Christina Lewellen 00:03:59
our space, and I thought it would be really awesome to bring
Christina Lewellen 00:04:02
him here and talk about what's going on in the technology
Christina Lewellen 00:04:05
leader hiring landscape Gabe, welcome to the pod. Thank you.
Christina Lewellen 00:04:10
And before we get kicked off, do you have an opinion about this
Christina Lewellen 00:04:13
football nonsense?
Gabriel Lucas 00:04:15
Well, I'm out in California, so it's been
Gabriel Lucas 00:04:18
actually a disappointing Super Bowl. I'm sorry, can't root for
Gabriel Lucas 00:04:22
either team, basically rooting for a tie.
Unknown 00:04:25
Ah, that's not how that goes.
Gabriel Lucas 00:04:27
But I do think if you stand behind your team, you
Gabriel Lucas 00:04:30
have to be willing to put out another team's jacket. So I'm
Gabriel Lucas 00:04:33
gonna actually go on your side. Kristina, on the back. Yes,
Gabriel Lucas 00:04:37
Gabe,
Christina Lewellen 00:04:38
I love you. Thank you so much. I'm telling
Christina Lewellen 00:04:41
you, I'm coming with a chief. I'm gonna bring Richards chief
Christina Lewellen 00:04:44
gear with me to Atlas. All right, so Gabe, thank you for
Christina Lewellen 00:04:48
joining us, and I'm really excited to kind of dive right in
Christina Lewellen 00:04:51
with you. If we could, I think a lot of people know you. But for
Christina Lewellen 00:04:54
newer listeners who are coming into our community, and there
Christina Lewellen 00:04:56
are quite a few of them, could you please introduce your.
Christina Lewellen 00:05:00
Yourself. Give us a little background on you and your firm.
Christina Lewellen 00:05:03
Yeah,
Gabriel Lucas 00:05:03
so, I mean, I've been a part of the educational
Gabriel Lucas 00:05:05
community for about 20 plus years. I worked in higher ed. I
Gabriel Lucas 00:05:09
did work in a couple of independent schools out in
Gabriel Lucas 00:05:11
California. Ran technology departments back in 2014 Stuart
Gabriel Lucas 00:05:17
Kelsea and I came together and founded Atlas. Was a great
Gabriel Lucas 00:05:21
journey, still is, and out of that came just a realization, a
Gabriel Lucas 00:05:25
passion and sort of an idea for helping schools hire for
Gabriel Lucas 00:05:28
leadership roles in technology. So we started the firm, or I
Gabriel Lucas 00:05:32
started the firm as Ed Tech recruiting, and that was our
Gabriel Lucas 00:05:35
main focus, and really our only focus, and we still do that to
Gabriel Lucas 00:05:39
this day, but we also expand it to all areas, the heads cabinet
Gabriel Lucas 00:05:43
and now help schools hire leadership roles across the
Gabriel Lucas 00:05:46
board. And I think our trajectory sort of mirrors where
Gabriel Lucas 00:05:50
the industry has gone and that 1015, 20 years ago, you had to
Gabriel Lucas 00:05:54
have the technology expert, and you still do, but it was sort of
Gabriel Lucas 00:05:58
seemed like, well, everybody else can just be technology
Gabriel Lucas 00:06:01
phobic or technology uneducated or disinterested, as long as we
Gabriel Lucas 00:06:07
had a quote, tech person on our hiring leadership team, whatnot,
Gabriel Lucas 00:06:11
we're okay. But, you know, now there's sort of a blended
Gabriel Lucas 00:06:14
approach that's, I think, an exciting sort of where things
Gabriel Lucas 00:06:17
are headed, and it's where we've headed so that now we're running
Gabriel Lucas 00:06:20
a lot of searches that bring or fuse technology into other roles
Gabriel Lucas 00:06:24
and vice versa, and that's been great to see as there's now a
Gabriel Lucas 00:06:27
realization that high technology acumen is not just supposed to
Gabriel Lucas 00:06:33
be in one person. It really is responsibility of the entire
Gabriel Lucas 00:06:37
leadership team or the entire school to understand that these
Gabriel Lucas 00:06:40
are important issues affecting everybody. I
Christina Lewellen 00:06:42
love it. And Gabe, what is kind of the lay of
Christina Lewellen 00:06:45
the land lately? Like, what are you seeing in the hiring market?
Christina Lewellen 00:06:49
What are schools sort of looking for, and is it changing?
Gabriel Lucas 00:06:52
It is. And of course, it's also case by case.
Gabriel Lucas 00:06:56
And I'm always sort of reluctant to kind of say, well, there is a
Gabriel Lucas 00:06:59
fad or a trend, or like everybody's doing this, but you
Gabriel Lucas 00:07:02
know, I'd be derelict in duty if I didn't say things like, cyber
Gabriel Lucas 00:07:06
security are much more important than they were five or six years
Gabriel Lucas 00:07:09
ago. Data strategy is much more important than it was even two
Gabriel Lucas 00:07:14
or three years ago, and the role of a technology leader is, for
Gabriel Lucas 00:07:19
sure, multi faceted. 10 years ago, when I was starting to do
Gabriel Lucas 00:07:24
this work and really explain to schools the complexity of
Gabriel Lucas 00:07:27
technology hiring, I talked about three areas of technology
Gabriel Lucas 00:07:31
instructional and IT and data systems in the middle, and that
Gabriel Lucas 00:07:35
was sort of revolutionary, like it used to be just it and Ed
Gabriel Lucas 00:07:38
Tech, right? And I think people got that, and that's how it is
Gabriel Lucas 00:07:42
today, but it's gone just not exponential, but it's certainly
Gabriel Lucas 00:07:46
gone far beyond those three prongs, and you have technology
Gabriel Lucas 00:07:51
leaders taking on major aspects of business operations because
Gabriel Lucas 00:07:56
they can think system minded. They can step into managing
Gabriel Lucas 00:08:01
functional units campus operations. But then you also
Gabriel Lucas 00:08:04
have technology leaders expand into roles like chief academic
Gabriel Lucas 00:08:08
officer and hive assistant head of school for Teaching and
Gabriel Lucas 00:08:12
Learning with a huge emphasis on technology. So that's been great
Gabriel Lucas 00:08:17
to see. Then we step back from all that. My advice very quickly
Gabriel Lucas 00:08:22
is that schools should define roles that are right for them.
Gabriel Lucas 00:08:26
It's so easy to do the copycat mentality they're putting in
Gabriel Lucas 00:08:29
smart boards. So should we? They're going one to one. So
Gabriel Lucas 00:08:32
should we, we saw that cycle decades and decades ago. What
Gabriel Lucas 00:08:37
I'm seeing now is there's a almost a comfort level of let's
Gabriel Lucas 00:08:42
define it for ourselves. We worked at the school last year,
Gabriel Lucas 00:08:46
they were all in to design and maker, and so for them, the
Gabriel Lucas 00:08:50
technology position had to just be totally interconnected with
Gabriel Lucas 00:08:54
that area of pedagogy and learning. But that's not right
Gabriel Lucas 00:08:57
for everybody, and that's okay. So you go back 20 years ago, it
Gabriel Lucas 00:09:03
was either it ed tech or maybe both, right? And there are sort
Gabriel Lucas 00:09:08
of three flavors. And now it's like, okay, there's a different
Gabriel Lucas 00:09:12
realization that there's so many aspects to what tech and school
Gabriel Lucas 00:09:16
means, and if institutional research is top of the game for
Gabriel Lucas 00:09:21
a school, they're going to define a role much differently
Gabriel Lucas 00:09:23
for one that's going to think about design maker. I mean, it
Gabriel Lucas 00:09:26
sounds so simple, but the realization of heads, that this
Gabriel Lucas 00:09:30
is okay is, I think, finally there, and that's come about,
Gabriel Lucas 00:09:34
going back to my point earlier, of realizing that everybody from
Gabriel Lucas 00:09:39
the head and the board on down, has to have a level of
Gabriel Lucas 00:09:42
understanding of technology so they can dip into this strategic
Gabriel Lucas 00:09:46
planning and not just say, Well, I don't know about it, so I'll
Gabriel Lucas 00:09:49
go hire somebody, and I won't think about it ever again.
Gabriel Lucas 00:09:52
Anyway, that is definitely in the rear view mirror, and that's
Gabriel Lucas 00:09:57
been great to see. So before we kind
Christina Lewellen 00:09:59
of. Pivot over to the annual salary survey
Christina Lewellen 00:10:02
and the resulting compensation report. Your firm and Atlas
Christina Lewellen 00:10:06
partner up and do this report each year to benchmark industry
Christina Lewellen 00:10:10
compensation and benefits. And so we're going to pivot to that,
Christina Lewellen 00:10:13
and it's a big reason why we wanted you to come but I have
Christina Lewellen 00:10:15
one more question, kind of high level for those who aren't
Christina Lewellen 00:10:18
familiar with the model, who does the recruiter work for? Are
Christina Lewellen 00:10:23
you working for the candidates? Are you working for the schools?
Christina Lewellen 00:10:25
How does that work? I'll
Gabriel Lucas 00:10:27
answer the question in two ways. One, what
Gabriel Lucas 00:10:30
we do, but then I'll also say to those that are interested about
Gabriel Lucas 00:10:34
understanding sort of more behind the scenes. You know,
Gabriel Lucas 00:10:37
just different models, right? Who does the travel agent work
Gabriel Lucas 00:10:39
for? They their customer is the person to walk and for that's
Gabriel Lucas 00:10:43
sort of, again, a yes to your industry. But if you remember
Gabriel Lucas 00:10:46
those days, you've worked with the travel agent to book your
Gabriel Lucas 00:10:49
trip. So you the customer, were interfacing with them, but they
Gabriel Lucas 00:10:53
were being honestly paid by the industry, right? They would get
Gabriel Lucas 00:10:56
a some sort of partnership or payment through major travel
Gabriel Lucas 00:11:01
companies. Just thinking about that is a good realization to
Gabriel Lucas 00:11:05
recognize. It's not as simple as it might seem to the naked eye,
Gabriel Lucas 00:11:09
very simple for us, though we are an executive recruiting
Gabriel Lucas 00:11:13
firm, our official status, if you will, is that we're a non
Gabriel Lucas 00:11:17
profit search consulting firm. We're hired by our clients, and
Gabriel Lucas 00:11:21
which are not just schools. We're hired by colleges,
Gabriel Lucas 00:11:24
associations, even some for profit companies. So we get
Gabriel Lucas 00:11:28
hired by a client to run a search on their behalf. We don't
Gabriel Lucas 00:11:33
represent candidates. We don't place people. We're neutral on
Gabriel Lucas 00:11:37
decisions, and I'll even go further, we don't get paid $1
Gabriel Lucas 00:11:40
more if someone has hired external, internal, someone we
Gabriel Lucas 00:11:43
knew or didn't know. So in our little world, at least our
Gabriel Lucas 00:11:46
company, to anybody who will listen, I say, Yeah, we are
Gabriel Lucas 00:11:50
hired by our client. And if you go an agent or a consultant of a
Gabriel Lucas 00:11:54
in this case, say, at school, but we're helping that client
Gabriel Lucas 00:11:57
make decisions, and thus we interface and interact with
Gabriel Lucas 00:12:01
individual applicants, but we don't represent them, and that's
Gabriel Lucas 00:12:04
very important. You know, it cuts both ways in that we're
Gabriel Lucas 00:12:07
neutral on the decision, but we also don't coach people, and we
Gabriel Lucas 00:12:12
don't say, Okay, well, I'm rooting for you, or you're in my
Gabriel Lucas 00:12:15
stable so I'm going to really try to get you placed over
Gabriel Lucas 00:12:19
there, and thus let me fix your documents and tell you what to
Gabriel Lucas 00:12:24
say. And we don't do that. Going back to the travel agent model,
Gabriel Lucas 00:12:28
there are many different types of agents, and some that are
Gabriel Lucas 00:12:31
actually, you know, hired by individuals. Now take the
Gabriel Lucas 00:12:35
sporting world, right? The sporting agent is hired by the
Gabriel Lucas 00:12:37
player, and they're there to advocate, you know, let's take
Gabriel Lucas 00:12:41
our Super Bowl world, right? Like Travis Kelsea might be best
Gabriel Lucas 00:12:44
friends with Tay Tay, but he's still got an agent, and that
Gabriel Lucas 00:12:48
agent is going to act on his behalf and really push the
Gabriel Lucas 00:12:51
employer, Kansas City Chiefs, to do certain things. And that
Gabriel Lucas 00:12:56
person's getting paid by traps. There are plenty of placement
Gabriel Lucas 00:13:00
firms out there, and actually, we all know some of the big ones
Gabriel Lucas 00:13:04
that have this model of, well, we're not paid a dime unless you
Gabriel Lucas 00:13:09
get hired. And they have a very different starting point
Gabriel Lucas 00:13:13
approach, and in a positive way, they are often advocating for
Gabriel Lucas 00:13:17
the individual. They're coaching, they're trying to give
Gabriel Lucas 00:13:21
feedback and they're not an agent or representative of the
Gabriel Lucas 00:13:24
employer. It gets a little murky when some companies, and I won't
Gabriel Lucas 00:13:30
say names, try to do both. They are both placing people and also
Gabriel Lucas 00:13:36
hired as agents or consultants to an employer. And that's where
Gabriel Lucas 00:13:41
I think, if you're an applicant, you really have to understand
Gabriel Lucas 00:13:45
the model you're possibly entering, or like the quote
Gabriel Lucas 00:13:49
search firm that is running or supporting the search, and who's
Gabriel Lucas 00:13:53
paying them, or who represents them or not. And do they do both
Gabriel Lucas 00:13:57
sides sometimes? And in this case, what are they doing? It's
Gabriel Lucas 00:14:00
very complex. So again, our little world, our company, is
Gabriel Lucas 00:14:04
very simple. We act on behalf of schools, and we run searches,
Gabriel Lucas 00:14:08
and we're completely neutral, and we love people to come in
Gabriel Lucas 00:14:11
and apply, but it can feel a little icky sometimes, when
Gabriel Lucas 00:14:16
somebody is thinking about it's going to be one model and it's
Gabriel Lucas 00:14:20
actually another. And I'll just say, you know, that's just the
Gabriel Lucas 00:14:22
way the industry is. But you have to do your homework and not
Gabriel Lucas 00:14:25
just make assumptions all
Unknown 00:14:27
the way throughout. That's really helpful. Thank you
Unknown 00:14:29
for that. That has cleared up
Bill Stites 00:14:32
a lot of ideas questions that I've had floating
Bill Stites 00:14:35
around about this. You know, being someone who has directed
Bill Stites 00:14:38
people to your site when I know that they've been looking and so
Bill Stites 00:14:41
on and so forth. But when it comes to the salary survey,
Bill Stites 00:14:46
we're all filling it out. I know how I use it. I'll fill it out,
Bill Stites 00:14:50
I'll look at it, and then I'll benchmark myself and just see
Bill Stites 00:14:52
where I am at this point. I've been in the game for quite a
Bill Stites 00:14:55
while, so I know generally where I will fall so on and so forth.
Bill Stites 00:14:58
Or if I'm talking. To somebody, whether it's through the ALI
Bill Stites 00:15:02
program or somebody locally, you know, I'll have them reference
Bill Stites 00:15:06
that. So if they're starting a search in general areas, what
Bill Stites 00:15:09
they can do to get an idea of where things may stand from that
Bill Stites 00:15:13
perspective, but turning this on you in a way of somebody who's
Bill Stites 00:15:18
administering this and then working with Atlas to kind of
Bill Stites 00:15:21
crunch all the numbers. How do you, as the person who has the
Bill Stites 00:15:25
firm, I know how I use it. I know how Hiram probably uses it.
Bill Stites 00:15:29
How do you use that data in the work that you're doing, whether
Bill Stites 00:15:33
that's on the school's behalf? How are you putting that into
Bill Stites 00:15:36
play? It's a
Gabriel Lucas 00:15:37
great question, and that's just it, like, how
Gabriel Lucas 00:15:40
each person uses it, I think, is a little bit different. And
Gabriel Lucas 00:15:43
that's what's so great about the person who is trying to seek a
Gabriel Lucas 00:15:46
job might have one objective function. The person who's in a
Gabriel Lucas 00:15:50
job trying to benchmark or see if they're raises or
Gabriel Lucas 00:15:53
commensurate, or if they're, shall I say, under market value,
Gabriel Lucas 00:15:57
that's an important thing. How we use it is very simple and,
Gabriel Lucas 00:16:01
quite frankly, very straightforward. The one and
Gabriel Lucas 00:16:04
pretty much only time I need to think about salary is when a
Gabriel Lucas 00:16:08
client has engaged us to say, hey, we're going to run a
Gabriel Lucas 00:16:11
search, and we work with them to figure out director of ed tech
Gabriel Lucas 00:16:14
or CIO or Information Systems Manager, whatever it might be.
Gabriel Lucas 00:16:19
Well, the obvious question, what should the salary be? And that's
Gabriel Lucas 00:16:23
a very simple question with a difficult either answer or just
Gabriel Lucas 00:16:28
requires a lot of analysis and thought. So that's the way I use
Gabriel Lucas 00:16:32
it is to help our clients figure out how to position or post a
Gabriel Lucas 00:16:37
salary range that is reasonable. Now I should emphasize help our
Gabriel Lucas 00:16:42
clients. It's not my decision what the salary is, and so I can
Gabriel Lucas 00:16:46
only do so much to say to a client, well, this is what I
Gabriel Lucas 00:16:49
think market rates are. This is where others who are. You know
Gabriel Lucas 00:16:53
the person who has a portfolio of what you're looking for. You
Gabriel Lucas 00:16:56
know the person who manages a team of eight, oversees all
Gabriel Lucas 00:16:59
areas of technology, working in a 1200 person school, they're
Gabriel Lucas 00:17:03
making x. Now you only seem to want to pay y, and y is less
Gabriel Lucas 00:17:09
than x. So, you know, do we have a problem? Well, I mean, it's
Gabriel Lucas 00:17:12
more like it's going to be a bit of a challenging search, because
Gabriel Lucas 00:17:15
the people you're looking for are up in the X land. So I'm
Gabriel Lucas 00:17:19
going to give you more than you bargain for again, we our
Gabriel Lucas 00:17:21
contracts and our little firm, they're fixed costs. So I mean,
Gabriel Lucas 00:17:25
we literally are just paid a fixed fee to help our clients
Gabriel Lucas 00:17:28
run great searches. I have no skin in the game personally, to
Gabriel Lucas 00:17:32
raise the salary so I'll make more money. Yes, certain firms
Gabriel Lucas 00:17:36
do pay a percentage or get a percentage, and that's cool, but
Gabriel Lucas 00:17:39
that's not our model. I don't want to look like I'm trying to
Gabriel Lucas 00:17:42
jack the seller up so I get more money. So the advice I'm trying
Gabriel Lucas 00:17:46
to give our clients is truly a market trip. Look, you're
Gabriel Lucas 00:17:49
looking for the X people. You only want to pay y. We're going
Gabriel Lucas 00:17:52
to have to figure out, like, well, maybe we got to pull a
Gabriel Lucas 00:17:55
different lever. Are you willing to let the Y person work one day
Gabriel Lucas 00:17:59
from home? Are you willing to maybe rethink the scope of the
Gabriel Lucas 00:18:03
job in such a way that part of those duties will go elsewhere?
Gabriel Lucas 00:18:06
Are you willing to get a little creative on relocation or
Gabriel Lucas 00:18:10
vacation or something? So if not, that salary analysis tells
Gabriel Lucas 00:18:15
me this is going to be a challenging search, and tells
Gabriel Lucas 00:18:17
the client, I don't know if you're going to identify the
Gabriel Lucas 00:18:20
right people that you're looking for. So it's very important,
Gabriel Lucas 00:18:23
very helpful to us in that very specific case. But I would just
Gabriel Lucas 00:18:27
say to others, there's a lot of reasons to use it, and I hope
Gabriel Lucas 00:18:30
you explore it and leverage it, because I think it helps make
Gabriel Lucas 00:18:33
better decision making across the board. That's
Christina Lewellen 00:18:37
so interesting, Gabe, and that
Christina Lewellen 00:18:38
actually leads me into some of what we saw in this year's data.
Christina Lewellen 00:18:42
We'll get into some of the specifics on the salary side,
Christina Lewellen 00:18:44
but first, I just want to ask for your feedback on this. In
Christina Lewellen 00:18:48
our executive findings, our executive summary findings, we
Christina Lewellen 00:18:52
have started asking about overall job satisfaction. And
Christina Lewellen 00:18:56
the data which was collected in late 2024 compared to the same
Christina Lewellen 00:19:01
data in 2023 there's some concerning dips in overall
Christina Lewellen 00:19:05
satisfaction. So in last year's data, we asked technology
Christina Lewellen 00:19:10
leaders to kind of rate overall their job satisfaction, and it
Christina Lewellen 00:19:13
was at 92% okay, that's pretty healthy, right? It dipped down
Christina Lewellen 00:19:18
to 83% this year, not a surprise. And then we asked
Christina Lewellen 00:19:22
about the respondent satisfaction with their work
Christina Lewellen 00:19:25
environment. Like, specifically, like, how's your work
Christina Lewellen 00:19:27
environment? That dropped from 89% to 79% so across every
Christina Lewellen 00:19:33
measure, even at the very bottom end of the spectrum, Gabe, like
Christina Lewellen 00:19:37
the career advancement opportunities, we asked about
Christina Lewellen 00:19:39
that last year compared to this year last year, asking about
Christina Lewellen 00:19:42
career advancement opportunities, they reported a
Christina Lewellen 00:19:45
62% satisfaction rate. This year it dipped all the way down to
Christina Lewellen 00:19:49
41% and finally, I just want you to reflect on with flexibility,
Christina Lewellen 00:19:55
asking about that aspect of satisfaction, last year's data
Christina Lewellen 00:19:58
gave us a 53% so. Satisfaction rate this year, we're down to
Christina Lewellen 00:20:02
30% when it comes to flexibility. Your thoughts on
Christina Lewellen 00:20:06
that? Well,
Gabriel Lucas 00:20:07
I guess I'll give thoughts that have a silver
Gabriel Lucas 00:20:10
lining, mindset that maybe actually brings a sort of a
Gabriel Lucas 00:20:14
negative or a bummer, which is that across the board, these are
Gabriel Lucas 00:20:19
the trends. In other words, if you had asked me to do a similar
Gabriel Lucas 00:20:23
survey around like division heads, because we do a lot of
Gabriel Lucas 00:20:26
academic searches, it's probably about the same. These are roles
Gabriel Lucas 00:20:30
that are just getting more frustrating, harder to run. The
Gabriel Lucas 00:20:34
To Do list is going up and up and up. The expectations that
Gabriel Lucas 00:20:39
you know someone be the magician or the ace of all trades. Forget
Gabriel Lucas 00:20:43
even Jack, right? It's really trending, I think, a little bit
Gabriel Lucas 00:20:46
in the wrong direction. Now, I don't want to be a complete
Gabriel Lucas 00:20:49
Negative Nelly, and I think there are silver linings on the
Gabriel Lucas 00:20:52
positive side, but just to step back, I think it's helpful to
Gabriel Lucas 00:20:55
know that there's just a difficulty in school leadership
Gabriel Lucas 00:21:01
positions across the board. We're working with NAIS and I
Gabriel Lucas 00:21:04
case and other organizations on just like leadership pipelines.
Gabriel Lucas 00:21:08
I just gave a session last week, and people are just staying on
Gabriel Lucas 00:21:11
the sidelines. They're stepping out. It's challenging. So the
Gabriel Lucas 00:21:15
point there, number one, is just, I think there's comfort in
Gabriel Lucas 00:21:19
a shared recognition that running schools is hard. I think
Gabriel Lucas 00:21:24
the technology position, as we talked earlier, because it's no
Gabriel Lucas 00:21:27
longer society or ed tech, and it has so many aspects to it,
Gabriel Lucas 00:21:31
from AI and cyber, just take those two things right? There
Gabriel Lucas 00:21:35
are these frontiers of desired exploration at the board level,
Gabriel Lucas 00:21:42
all the way down to the teacher level. I mean, 25 years ago, how
Gabriel Lucas 00:21:46
many people in schools were just talking about, like, Apple 2e
Gabriel Lucas 00:21:49
even knew what that was, other than the six people were in some
Gabriel Lucas 00:21:52
locked room. So now you have everybody talking about these
Gabriel Lucas 00:21:56
trends and looking for the expert to get a sense of, like,
Gabriel Lucas 00:22:01
you know, where are we headed and where should we be? And that
Gabriel Lucas 00:22:04
just, I think, puts a lot of strain. So we have to go educate
Gabriel Lucas 00:22:08
the larger industry to realize, like, the technology position
Gabriel Lucas 00:22:12
has so many components to it. And let's go back to
Gabriel Lucas 00:22:16
compensation. If you want somebody really good, you need
Gabriel Lucas 00:22:19
to recognize that this is as critical as your CFO. You know,
Gabriel Lucas 00:22:24
my little soap box is that it's a little disappointing that I
Gabriel Lucas 00:22:28
think schools are still trying to say, well, we have the head
Gabriel Lucas 00:22:32
and the CFO and the advancement person and admission, so they're
Gabriel Lucas 00:22:36
bringing the dollars, but the tech person is like, one notch
Gabriel Lucas 00:22:39
down. We got to realize this person is as important, if not
Gabriel Lucas 00:22:45
more, than some of those other roles. So I don't want to get
Gabriel Lucas 00:22:48
into what is more important, not but the recognition of value.
Gabriel Lucas 00:22:52
The irony is, there are a lot of people who want these jobs.
Gabriel Lucas 00:22:55
These are exciting roles, but then you know things like, is
Gabriel Lucas 00:22:59
the salary really commensurate or not, are the expectations
Gabriel Lucas 00:23:02
commensurate? And then the burnout? There's a lot of
Gabriel Lucas 00:23:05
burnout. And we run searches where there can be these
Gabriel Lucas 00:23:09
exciting, 345, year turnarounds, and that's okay, what both sides
Gabriel Lucas 00:23:15
recognize. Hey, if you're willing to say, come in and work
Gabriel Lucas 00:23:19
hard, this can Springboard or something great, and a lot of
Gabriel Lucas 00:23:22
schools don't feel they need a 20 year person to stay. So if
Gabriel Lucas 00:23:26
you're burning out, it's almost like, to me, time to think about
Gabriel Lucas 00:23:28
another role. But I just want our industry to recognize the
Gabriel Lucas 00:23:32
value of these positions a bit more than it does, and I hope
Gabriel Lucas 00:23:35
this salary survey moves the needle there. But I think we
Gabriel Lucas 00:23:38
have to do a better job educating non technology school
Gabriel Lucas 00:23:42
leaders that you're asking for a lot you need to recognize the
Gabriel Lucas 00:23:46
value of who you're bringing in. Gabe,
Hiram Cuevas 00:23:49
I'm really pleased to hear that you mentioned that
Hiram Cuevas 00:23:52
tech leaders should be in the same ballpark as some of these
Hiram Cuevas 00:23:55
other leadership positions. I mean, I think about some of the
Hiram Cuevas 00:23:59
compliance issues alone that provide such tremendous risk to
Hiram Cuevas 00:24:04
our institutions, by itself, the number of times you have to deal
Hiram Cuevas 00:24:08
with attorneys and dealing with contracts, etc, that impact the
Hiram Cuevas 00:24:13
entire school, not just say, a division or a department, is
Hiram Cuevas 00:24:18
quite vast. My question for you is within the salary survey, you
Hiram Cuevas 00:24:24
mentioned that there's an undervaluing perhaps at some
Hiram Cuevas 00:24:27
schools about their tech leaders in terms of the salaries. What
Hiram Cuevas 00:24:31
is your perception about the overall landscape of tech
Hiram Cuevas 00:24:35
leaders within the survey in terms of where they're
Hiram Cuevas 00:24:38
positioned with respect to other senior leadership positions at
Hiram Cuevas 00:24:43
their schools?
Unknown 00:24:44
Yeah, it's a great question.
Gabriel Lucas 00:24:46
I think a lot of that comes to the function of
Gabriel Lucas 00:24:48
the head. I mean, what I've seen just in my 10 years of work is
Gabriel Lucas 00:24:51
that if the Head of School sees the high value of this position,
Gabriel Lucas 00:24:56
they are going to bring that position into the even the upper
Gabriel Lucas 00:24:59
eche. Law The Executive Cabinet, they're gonna run a search, and
Gabriel Lucas 00:25:04
I'm not trying to put any clients under the bus, but I
Gabriel Lucas 00:25:07
mean some heads lean into working with us even more
Gabriel Lucas 00:25:11
because they're like, I know, like, this is gonna make or
Gabriel Lucas 00:25:13
break my school in the next five or six years. And what I also
Gabriel Lucas 00:25:17
like is when they sort of don't know this, what they're telling
Gabriel Lucas 00:25:21
themselves is okay, but I gotta lean into this area. I'm not
Gabriel Lucas 00:25:25
gonna just, like, push a button and like, Wait for five people
Gabriel Lucas 00:25:28
to show up and I'll pick one of them. And like, no, like, this
Gabriel Lucas 00:25:31
is hard work to get the community to recognize how
Gabriel Lucas 00:25:35
critical this role is. So the status of the position is number
Gabriel Lucas 00:25:39
one, a function of where the head sees it. You just have to
Gabriel Lucas 00:25:42
call a spade a spade there. I think other things can play a
Gabriel Lucas 00:25:45
role, but I think the technology professional is probably the
Gabriel Lucas 00:25:49
number two like, in other words, they themselves can self
Gabriel Lucas 00:25:53
advocate, but in that proper way. And I mean, look, I've been
Gabriel Lucas 00:25:57
in this industry. I've been a tech director. We love to flock
Gabriel Lucas 00:26:00
together. So like Atlas, to me, was like finding our peace. It
Gabriel Lucas 00:26:05
brought a group together that was connected virtually in some
Gabriel Lucas 00:26:08
ways. But like now, we have a professional association. We
Gabriel Lucas 00:26:12
have to go out in the world and evangelize, if you will. In
Gabriel Lucas 00:26:15
other words, the interconnectedness that we have
Gabriel Lucas 00:26:17
to do is to be more present, for example, at conferences that are
Gabriel Lucas 00:26:23
non technology. I'm not saying don't go to Atlas. And then when
Gabriel Lucas 00:26:27
you get those people coming to Atlas, I don't want non
Gabriel Lucas 00:26:31
technology senior leaders to sort of see this as like, well,
Gabriel Lucas 00:26:35
I don't need to know this. And I got somebody here who's doing
Gabriel Lucas 00:26:39
it, and they had the little pond, and I have my pond, and
Gabriel Lucas 00:26:44
we'll just do our thing, like, that's not going to lead to a
Gabriel Lucas 00:26:50
recognition that the issues that we're talking about are relevant
Gabriel Lucas 00:26:54
for everybody. So like, when I see Atlas putting on a think
Gabriel Lucas 00:26:57
about cyber or I saw an email and it was this morning, right?
Gabriel Lucas 00:27:00
Like, you know who owns your data, they happen to come in my
Gabriel Lucas 00:27:03
inbox today, I would argue more non tech people should be in
Gabriel Lucas 00:27:08
that session or listening than tech people. In other words, an
Gabriel Lucas 00:27:12
interesting little analysis would be if 95% of people who
Gabriel Lucas 00:27:15
show up are tech professionals, that's actually bad, or that's
Gabriel Lucas 00:27:20
good in some way, but it's leaving a whole slice of the pie
Gabriel Lucas 00:27:24
out, and whose responsibility is that, I think that has to be
Gabriel Lucas 00:27:27
with the tech director, the CIO, to bring along people to not
Gabriel Lucas 00:27:32
accept things like, Oh, well, you go do that, and I'll go do
Gabriel Lucas 00:27:35
this. No, no, you're all doing data. You're all using it. You
Gabriel Lucas 00:27:40
need to hear this. I remember when I was in the school, like,
Gabriel Lucas 00:27:43
I just sort of got almost not jealous, but I was, like, I got
Gabriel Lucas 00:27:47
percolatingly Excited by like, what my CFO is doing. Oh, my
Gabriel Lucas 00:27:50
God, she's talking to a lawyer. I want to talk to a lawyer. How
Gabriel Lucas 00:27:54
cool, right? Like, I'm not a CFO, but I want to hear what
Gabriel Lucas 00:27:58
they're talking about. We have to do that too. That's the next
Gabriel Lucas 00:28:02
level. And like I said, yes, the head plays a role in the stature
Gabriel Lucas 00:28:06
the tech person, but the tech professional themselves has to
Gabriel Lucas 00:28:10
do some creative things to not just say, I got my peeps and now
Gabriel Lucas 00:28:14
I'm good. No, it's like, I've got a starting point. But you
Gabriel Lucas 00:28:17
need to come hear this. You need to come hang with us. 20 of us
Gabriel Lucas 00:28:21
need to do that, so I don't just bring my one head of school and
Gabriel Lucas 00:28:24
that person feels like a fish out of water. Easier said than
Gabriel Lucas 00:28:27
done, but I think it just conceptually recognizes a
Gabriel Lucas 00:28:30
blending of these issues among multiple conditional groups. And
Gabriel Lucas 00:28:34
then I think the stature, the tech position, the CIO, the tech
Gabriel Lucas 00:28:37
director, goes much higher.
Hiram Cuevas 00:28:39
So Gabe, I imagine you're encountering schools all
Hiram Cuevas 00:28:42
over that continuum, oh yeah, yeah,
Gabriel Lucas 00:28:45
which is exciting and challenging, or just it
Gabriel Lucas 00:28:49
creates for like, a steady stream of work. And it's not
Gabriel Lucas 00:28:52
cookie cutter, because it's a function of the head, the board,
Gabriel Lucas 00:28:55
the school, the faculty, where that tech professional is the
Gabriel Lucas 00:28:59
success of the department. And there's a lot of things that I
Gabriel Lucas 00:29:02
think play into this. And look, I get the fact that schools
Gabriel Lucas 00:29:07
today, a lot of them are focused on survival, market, funding,
Gabriel Lucas 00:29:12
finance, like the dollars at stake are high, yes, yes and
Gabriel Lucas 00:29:16
yes. But a tech director, cio anything, even a systems manager
Gabriel Lucas 00:29:23
could just flip a switch, set a policy, if you will, and have a
Gabriel Lucas 00:29:28
tremendous impact on either user satisfaction or use your
Gabriel Lucas 00:29:34
frustration. And I don't mean open a firewall or doc, but
Gabriel Lucas 00:29:37
whatever it is right we can or can't install applications on
Gabriel Lucas 00:29:42
our computers, or what device is bought, or are we going to allow
Gabriel Lucas 00:29:46
this system or not? Or there's so many things. So this role is
Gabriel Lucas 00:29:51
so important, and yes, there is a tremendous continuum, but the
Gabriel Lucas 00:29:56
tech professional has so much influence. On the success of a
Gabriel Lucas 00:30:01
school they set an established culture. They can essentially
Gabriel Lucas 00:30:05
move that continuum with almost like a push of a button, or
Gabriel Lucas 00:30:10
we're going to buy this, or we're not going to, or we're
Gabriel Lucas 00:30:12
going to allow that, or not. That's a lot of power, and I
Gabriel Lucas 00:30:16
hope that they are using that ability influence to explain to
Gabriel Lucas 00:30:21
their peers how important technology is, but then we have
Gabriel Lucas 00:30:24
to get those people to recognize these decisions are not just
Gabriel Lucas 00:30:28
meant to be made by one person. And it's that intermingling that
Gabriel Lucas 00:30:32
I think will help move a school forward, but also help the
Gabriel Lucas 00:30:36
technology professional advance their either career goals or the
Gabriel Lucas 00:30:41
stature of their position.
Christina Lewellen 00:30:43
So looking back at the data, Gabe, we've
Christina Lewellen 00:30:45
had several years where we saw pretty significant increases in
Christina Lewellen 00:30:49
salary. So from 2019 to 2024 as long as we've been creating this
Christina Lewellen 00:30:54
report, the overall increase has been more than 15% Wow. But this
Christina Lewellen 00:31:00
year we leveled off. This year we saw a slight decrease. I
Christina Lewellen 00:31:05
mean, I don't want to call it a trend. One year is not a trend,
Christina Lewellen 00:31:07
right? But we saw a less than 1% decrease in average salary from
Christina Lewellen 00:31:12
around $108,000 a year to $107,000 a year. And again, over
Christina Lewellen 00:31:18
the last several years, it's been going up pretty
Christina Lewellen 00:31:20
significantly, but it's something maybe worth watching.
Christina Lewellen 00:31:23
I'm hopeful that maybe some of that is reflective of more
Christina Lewellen 00:31:26
individuals using this kind of data. Do some of the candidates
Christina Lewellen 00:31:29
and some of the schools actually know about the compensation
Christina Lewellen 00:31:33
report, and do they also leverage this data ahead of you
Christina Lewellen 00:31:36
bringing it to the table? Well,
Gabriel Lucas 00:31:38
they do. We're working with schools when
Gabriel Lucas 00:31:41
they're hiring. We're focused on the hiring moment when it's time
Gabriel Lucas 00:31:44
to set a salary for essentially, a transition. We don't do a lot
Gabriel Lucas 00:31:49
of work with schools on, like, resetting internal salaries
Gabriel Lucas 00:31:53
based on who's there. We help do some like, analysis of
Gabriel Lucas 00:31:57
positions, but we usually don't get into like, is this person
Gabriel Lucas 00:32:00
overpaid? Underpaid or not. Usually they're on your page.
Gabriel Lucas 00:32:02
Quite frankly, I'm going to again give you that statement I
Gabriel Lucas 00:32:05
made about 15 minutes ago, which you may not want to hear, but I
Gabriel Lucas 00:32:08
definitely see it across the board, which is, I mean, I can
Gabriel Lucas 00:32:13
think of literal carbon copy searches, and we don't carbon
Gabriel Lucas 00:32:17
copy a position statement. But like today's 2025, search with
Gabriel Lucas 00:32:21
client X. It's a mirror image of a search we ran three, four
Gabriel Lucas 00:32:26
years ago, and I used the four year ago search as an example to
Gabriel Lucas 00:32:29
the client to go, this is your search? And they're like, yeah,
Gabriel Lucas 00:32:32
that totally is. And then it's shocking, like, I don't think
Gabriel Lucas 00:32:35
they're literally copying that salary that was posted, but it's
Gabriel Lucas 00:32:40
amazing that the salaries have not increased in the market
Gabriel Lucas 00:32:44
search world that we used to see. I mean, I was seeing jumps
Gabriel Lucas 00:32:49
678, years ago, which were great. Now there's sort of a
Gabriel Lucas 00:32:53
leveling off, and we're also seeing that with division head
Gabriel Lucas 00:32:58
searches. Those are really tough. I'll tell you right now,
Gabriel Lucas 00:33:02
they're not going up at the level that I think they should
Gabriel Lucas 00:33:04
be. So I wish I had greater analysis, but I'm just not
Gabriel Lucas 00:33:08
seeing the salary increases across the board. But with the
Gabriel Lucas 00:33:12
technology position, it's tougher also, because, yeah, it
Gabriel Lucas 00:33:16
may be a carbon copy, but the points we discussed earlier, the
Gabriel Lucas 00:33:20
level of risk that this person is managing is way higher, and,
Gabriel Lucas 00:33:25
quite frankly, the ready to pounce is really higher the
Gabriel Lucas 00:33:29
moment like something goes wrong. So that's a problem.
Gabriel Lucas 00:33:33
We're seeing that here's what we do. We also push our clients to
Gabriel Lucas 00:33:37
look at public salary postings in industry or other nonprofits,
Gabriel Lucas 00:33:42
just to see, like, Okay, you're about to enter the public
Gabriel Lucas 00:33:45
market. How are others posting this position? You cannot just
Gabriel Lucas 00:33:50
do what you did three or four years ago, or what your peers
Gabriel Lucas 00:33:53
will do three or four years ago, like, use the salary analysis
Gabriel Lucas 00:33:56
that we're doing with Atlas. Use external just analysis in
Gabriel Lucas 00:34:00
general, look at your internal salaries and then realize that
Gabriel Lucas 00:34:04
this role has changed dramatically. Unfortunately, I'm
Gabriel Lucas 00:34:07
often that don't shoot the messenger when I'm talking to a
Gabriel Lucas 00:34:10
candidate that's like, Well, yeah, it is what it is, but I
Gabriel Lucas 00:34:13
totally get it.
Christina Lewellen 00:34:14
You know, the one thing that is holding
Christina Lewellen 00:34:15
true year after year with this data is that the biggest impact
Christina Lewellen 00:34:20
you can have to drive your average salary up is to be on
Christina Lewellen 00:34:26
the senior leadership team. Yeah, of a school, that gap is
Christina Lewellen 00:34:30
massive. So if you serve on the senior leadership team at your
Christina Lewellen 00:34:34
school, so often, that means reporting to the head, but if
Christina Lewellen 00:34:37
you are considered a senior administrator, your average
Christina Lewellen 00:34:40
salary in 2024 was more than $126,000 and that's compared to,
Christina Lewellen 00:34:45
if you are not a senior administrator, the average
Christina Lewellen 00:34:48
salary is $96,000 annually. So I think that what's interesting to
Christina Lewellen 00:34:52
me, at least in year after year after year, there's all sorts of
Christina Lewellen 00:34:55
drivers, right? You can look at this data from what kind of
Christina Lewellen 00:34:58
school it is, how big it is. What the enrollment is, what the
Christina Lewellen 00:35:01
average tuition is, what kind of population you serve. There's
Christina Lewellen 00:35:04
tons of ways to slice the data, but the one that seems to be the
Christina Lewellen 00:35:07
most impactful to me is, do you report to the head IE, or do you
Christina Lewellen 00:35:11
serve on a senior leadership team at your school? If so,
Christina Lewellen 00:35:15
you're probably likely to make more money.
Gabriel Lucas 00:35:17
And look, there are two sides to that coin.
Gabriel Lucas 00:35:20
You're going to make more money and you're going to have more
Gabriel Lucas 00:35:22
responsibility. Again, we're neutral. Once again, we're
Gabriel Lucas 00:35:26
neutral here, because for some schools and candidates not
Gabriel Lucas 00:35:30
having the tech the on the seat Adam team is the right thing.
Gabriel Lucas 00:35:33
The school might say, Hey, that's not quite what we need
Gabriel Lucas 00:35:35
for whatever reason. But there are plenty of candidates who go,
Gabriel Lucas 00:35:38
I don't want to be exposed to all of this, I want somebody to
Gabriel Lucas 00:35:42
oversee, and that's great, but I think those that are seeking
Gabriel Lucas 00:35:47
growth and looking for that next level, I want to expand their
Gabriel Lucas 00:35:51
career, and possibly want to go into headship or other lanes of
Gabriel Lucas 00:35:56
oversight that you have to find ways to get on That senior admin
Gabriel Lucas 00:36:00
team, because that is a doorway to so much higher levels of
Gabriel Lucas 00:36:05
strategy, strategy planning being neutral. If the technology
Gabriel Lucas 00:36:09
person is not on the senior admin team, I will knock on the
Gabriel Lucas 00:36:12
door of a senior admin team to say, well, then who is highly
Gabriel Lucas 00:36:17
technology fluent? An idea is not just one person, but where
Gabriel Lucas 00:36:21
is that strategy coming from? And if you don't have anybody in
Gabriel Lucas 00:36:25
here who is really equipped to think about these issues, and
Gabriel Lucas 00:36:30
you've put this technology position kind of shoved into a
Gabriel Lucas 00:36:33
box, you're asking for a lot of trouble, or at least no that's a
Gabriel Lucas 00:36:36
different level of risk that you may not be aware of, but that
Gabriel Lucas 00:36:39
needs to be brought out front and center. The growth thing is
Gabriel Lucas 00:36:43
really important, and it's tough, because if you're not on
Gabriel Lucas 00:36:46
the senior admin team and your head is not really recognizing
Gabriel Lucas 00:36:50
this is an important either area or it's not their comfort zone,
Gabriel Lucas 00:36:55
you'll burn a lot of political capital while trying to make
Gabriel Lucas 00:36:58
that happen. And sometimes you just have to look elsewhere and
Gabriel Lucas 00:37:00
recognize that there's an opportunity down the street,
Gabriel Lucas 00:37:03
down the next state, you can switch from Eagles fan to Kansas
Gabriel Lucas 00:37:07
City Chiefs fan, and move to a city where there is going to be
Gabriel Lucas 00:37:10
recognition of your position. And there you go. If you're
Gabriel Lucas 00:37:13
willing to switch jerseys, sometimes that's what you got
Bill Stites 00:37:16
to do. Gabe, we're not switching jerseys. Okay? We
Bill Stites 00:37:18
just need to leave this one alone.
Gabriel Lucas 00:37:20
I know you're not gonna do that.
Bill Stites 00:37:23
So I do have a question for you, because you're
Bill Stites 00:37:25
touching on a lot of things in terms of where you need to sit
Bill Stites 00:37:28
on the senior leadership team, in terms of how that pulls out
Bill Stites 00:37:31
the value that we as technologists bring into the
Bill Stites 00:37:34
schools. And you know, I've been involved with Atlas for a while,
Bill Stites 00:37:37
to many different levels. You know, I participated early on in
Bill Stites 00:37:40
the E cat program, moving on to the ALI program, working on the
Bill Stites 00:37:44
T list program, really to develop those areas where we can
Bill Stites 00:37:49
help build skills and build fluency, build some recognition
Bill Stites 00:37:53
around the fact that, okay, this is what you're doing. So what
Bill Stites 00:37:56
I'm going to do is, I'm going to ask you to kind of put on the
Bill Stites 00:37:59
candidate hat for one piece of this and then put on the school
Bill Stites 00:38:04
hat on another one. In terms of, what would you say to the
Bill Stites 00:38:07
candidate? In terms of, what are the things that you need to
Bill Stites 00:38:10
focus on to elevate yourself to that level, like participate in
Bill Stites 00:38:15
AI, look at the T list, stuff do X or Y, things. You know, what
Bill Stites 00:38:19
are those things that you would say to the candidate? And then,
Bill Stites 00:38:21
what are the things that you're saying to the school that listen
Bill Stites 00:38:26
you're saying you want all these things. This is what you need to
Bill Stites 00:38:28
look for, or these are the questions that you need to be
Bill Stites 00:38:31
thinking about and asking of those candidates. So taking that
Bill Stites 00:38:34
from both those perspectives,
Gabriel Lucas 00:38:36
yeah, great question for candidates, having
Gabriel Lucas 00:38:38
supervisory experience is really important. And if not going to
Gabriel Lucas 00:38:43
some certification program that is going to teach you managerial
Gabriel Lucas 00:38:49
skills, one of the number one things is, can you manage? Can
Gabriel Lucas 00:38:53
you lead people? And I think the beauty of either an Ali or a T
Gabriel Lucas 00:38:57
list or any program is that it's going to hopefully develop
Gabriel Lucas 00:39:01
leadership management skills in this domain. And let's get
Gabriel Lucas 00:39:04
really specific. How would an ed tech person oversee an IT ops
Gabriel Lucas 00:39:09
manager or a network administrator? Because that
Gabriel Lucas 00:39:12
happens. Or how might a CIO who came up through the ranks of it
Gabriel Lucas 00:39:17
lead an ed tech unit? So that's a fluency that is just
Gabriel Lucas 00:39:22
essential, and especially true if you, let's say you're the CIO
Gabriel Lucas 00:39:26
and you never wait, taught in the classroom, but you need to
Gabriel Lucas 00:39:28
lead ed tech vision, or if you're the Ed Tech professional
Gabriel Lucas 00:39:32
who's never really been that hands on with it, but you need
Gabriel Lucas 00:39:36
to lead an IT unit, or some sort of it functional team. So that's
Gabriel Lucas 00:39:40
probably number one. Number two would be ability to lead change
Gabriel Lucas 00:39:45
management initiatives. Always tell the story, right? This one
Gabriel Lucas 00:39:48
guy in a search, you know, we asked him a question like, how
Gabriel Lucas 00:39:51
would you lead a phone system migration? And it sounded like
Gabriel Lucas 00:39:53
he was basically saying, I go down to Best Buy, buy a bunch of
Gabriel Lucas 00:39:57
units, and within 30 days, they'd all be installed. So. Oh,
Gabriel Lucas 00:40:00
my God, you don't even understand change management,
Gabriel Lucas 00:40:03
technology, downtime, Christmas break, testing, sandbox
Gabriel Lucas 00:40:08
environment, so just the lack of awareness of what it means to
Gabriel Lucas 00:40:12
manage technology change, and thus, on the positive side,
Gabriel Lucas 00:40:18
again, any certification program or learning experience, teaching
Gabriel Lucas 00:40:22
somebody the fundamentals about how to manage technology
Gabriel Lucas 00:40:26
transition, I think then there's probably three. Would be just
Gabriel Lucas 00:40:30
fluency beyond talking points, but a reasonable level of
Gabriel Lucas 00:40:35
understanding of across the board issues, whether it is
Gabriel Lucas 00:40:39
cyber security, data privacy, institutional research, and then
Gabriel Lucas 00:40:44
let's go on the ed side, just general practices on, like
Gabriel Lucas 00:40:47
instructional design, how to work with faculty. You know,
Gabriel Lucas 00:40:50
faculty can sniff out somebody who's going to come across as a
Gabriel Lucas 00:40:53
Genius Bar. Actually, that's like the number one metaphor, or
Gabriel Lucas 00:40:57
sort of descriptive, like, we don't want that genius bar
Gabriel Lucas 00:41:00
person. And they'll say, you know, with that hat or whatever,
Gabriel Lucas 00:41:03
like, We want somebody who can just, you know, how do they
Gabriel Lucas 00:41:05
talk? Teach it. And that, I think, is important. But then
Gabriel Lucas 00:41:10
take that to mean also, like, for the other side, how do you
Gabriel Lucas 00:41:12
talk administrator, like somebody who's able to talk to a
Gabriel Lucas 00:41:16
CFO or an admissions professional, and like not come
Gabriel Lucas 00:41:21
across as IT support plus. But how do you present yourself as a
Gabriel Lucas 00:41:26
true senior administrator? I always say like Your resume
Gabriel Lucas 00:41:30
should look like you have the job that you're trying to get,
Gabriel Lucas 00:41:33
not that you have. And when you're talking to senior
Gabriel Lucas 00:41:37
administrators, you should sound and look. This isn't like sort
Gabriel Lucas 00:41:40
of a visual, but like, you should present yourself and your
Gabriel Lucas 00:41:43
ideas and your framework in such a way that basically you are
Gabriel Lucas 00:41:47
talking as if you are the CIO, if that's trying to get from the
Gabriel Lucas 00:41:50
school side, schools, I think, need to really be willing to not
Gabriel Lucas 00:41:55
pitch and hold these positions into one lane or another, and be
Gabriel Lucas 00:41:59
much more open to a variety of experiences. And they're too
Gabriel Lucas 00:42:04
quick to say, well, they haven't taught high school or, you know,
Gabriel Lucas 00:42:07
they don't see a certification of, like, they don't know how to
Gabriel Lucas 00:42:09
use, you know, network equipment, like, there's too
Gabriel Lucas 00:42:12
many check boxes that they are looking for on resumes. And
Gabriel Lucas 00:42:16
we're trying to say there is so much more to this person's job
Gabriel Lucas 00:42:20
or role that you don't understand, and you need to be
Gabriel Lucas 00:42:23
much more open to, like, a variety of experiences and
Gabriel Lucas 00:42:27
backgrounds. We're getting there, but it's taking a long
Gabriel Lucas 00:42:30
time, and I think people are just looking for like, the
Gabriel Lucas 00:42:34
unicorn that doesn't exist. And we have to convince them like
Gabriel Lucas 00:42:38
you need to give people a chance to present themselves in their
Gabriel Lucas 00:42:42
full light and not just sort of go off of a resume.
Christina Lewellen 00:42:45
I love that. Yeah, we know a couple unicorns.
Christina Lewellen 00:42:48
I host the podcast with a couple of them. There you go. Gabe,
Christina Lewellen 00:42:53
this was so helpful. And I always love taking a moment to
Christina Lewellen 00:42:56
kind of talk through the annual compensation benchmark report
Christina Lewellen 00:42:58
findings with you. I appreciate your partnership on gathering
Christina Lewellen 00:43:02
that data, and I just feel like the nuggets that come out of it
Christina Lewellen 00:43:06
are so useful to our community. They help folks advocate for
Christina Lewellen 00:43:10
themselves, and certainly inform schools to approach some of
Christina Lewellen 00:43:14
these big picture questions with a lot more information. So I
Christina Lewellen 00:43:18
thank you for that, and I thank you for joining us. For those of
Christina Lewellen 00:43:21
you who are interested in getting your hands on the
Christina Lewellen 00:43:23
compensation benchmark report that's available in the show
Christina Lewellen 00:43:26
notes, and I hope that you use it at Atlas. We always love to
Christina Lewellen 00:43:29
hear about how you're using it. A lot of times at our
Christina Lewellen 00:43:32
conference, folks will come up to me or my team and say, you
Christina Lewellen 00:43:36
know, use the benchmark report and I got a raise, or I
Christina Lewellen 00:43:39
advocated for another staffer, and so those types of movements
Christina Lewellen 00:43:44
of the needle just really bring me a lot of satisfaction. I love
Christina Lewellen 00:43:47
hearing those stories, so continue to let us know how
Christina Lewellen 00:43:49
you're doing with that. But Gabe, thank you so much for
Christina Lewellen 00:43:52
being with us today. It's really useful
Gabriel Lucas 00:43:54
My pleasure. Thank you all very much. And go
Gabriel Lucas 00:43:57
birds chiefs or whoever you rooting for, and you
Bill Stites 00:44:01
could have stopped with the first one, Gabe, you
Bill Stites 00:44:03
were you were all good. I
Gabriel Lucas 00:44:04
know I had to cover all bases. I'm sorry.
Christina Lewellen 00:44:07
It's a good thing that he doesn't have
Christina Lewellen 00:44:09
editing rights to this podcast.
Gabriel Lucas 00:44:11
We represent nobody, so you know, that's
Gabriel Lucas 00:44:15
right.
Christina Lewellen 00:44:15
He's a neutral party. Thank you, Gabe.
Christina Lewellen 00:44:17
We will see you at the annual conference. See you that
Peter Frank 00:44:22
this has been talking technology with Atlas,
Peter Frank 00:44:25
produced by the Association of Technology Leaders in
Peter Frank 00:44:27
Independent Schools. For more information about Atlas and
Peter Frank 00:44:31
Atlas membership, please visit the atlas.org if you enjoyed
Peter Frank 00:44:35
this discussion, please subscribe, leave a review and
Peter Frank 00:44:38
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Peter Frank 00:44:41
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