Partner Talks: Bonnie Ricci from ICAISA Explores the Interplay of Technology and School Accreditation

arrator 0:02
Welcome to Talking Technology with ATLIS, the show that plugs you into the important topics and trends for technology leaders all through a unique Independent School lens. We'll hear stories from technology directors and other special guests from the Independent School community and provide you with focused learning and deep dive topics. And now please welcome your host, Christina Lewellen.

Christina Lewellen 0:25
Hello everyone and welcome back to talking technology with ATLIS. I'm Christina Llewellyn, the executive director of the Association of technology leaders in independent schools,

Bill Stites 0:34
and I am Bill Stites, the Director of Technology at Montclair Kimberley Academy in Montclair, New Jersey,

Hiram Cuevas 0:40
and I'm Hiram Cuevas, Director of Information Systems and Academic Technology at St. Christopher's school in Richmond, Virginia.

Christina Lewellen 0:46
Well, welcome back, Bill, Hiram. It's nice to be reunited, we've recorded a couple episodes with one of my legs of the stool missing. So I missed you each in your absence. I'm so glad to have the trio the power trio back together.

Bill Stites 1:00
It's good to be back together,

Hiram Cuevas 1:02
for sure. Absolutely.

Christina Lewellen 1:03
So I've been thinking about as we wrap up the year, I've been percolating on how so many people do not plan to end up in the jobs they end up in, right. And as ATLIS is working through, setting up this brand new certification program that we're launching in the spring of 2024. I've been thinking a lot about how not only did tech leaders not really aspire to be in those positions when they were young. Like it's not like I'm a firefighter, I want to be a nurse, I want to be a cop, right? It's like you fell into it. We've talked about how you guys fell into your roles. Same with me, I didn't even know what an association was. So I didn't know I'd be managing an association. And so I've been reflecting on how sometimes life sort of puts these really unique opportunities in front of you. And it made me think, and all those intro podcasts that we've done together. I've never asked you guys, what was your first job? Where did this journey really start for you? Not the teaching thing? I know y'all we're both classroom teachers.

Bill Stites 2:07
First job first job. Yeah, like first job. So first job first job during the summers spent all my summers down in the Jersey Shore and I was a beach boy. I ran it rafts. Umbrellas at the ripe old age of 12. I was sitting there and 12 and then 13. The following year, I rented bikes. And then it was a move into working in convenience stores down the shore. It was all summer jobs. You could work at just about any age back then. Yeah, my mom was like, No, you're not sitting inside all day. You're getting a job. Love it every morning. That's what I did.

Christina Lewellen 2:44
I can almost smell the surf and the sand and the ocean. How about you, Hiram? This

Hiram Cuevas 2:51
Long Island boy delivered Newsday newspapers? Heck, yeah, throughout his high school career. And then right before I left for college, I worked for an electronics company that developed the four sensors for Bank Street writer. So it was the two microphones a temperature sensor and a light sensor. So we would actually do a lot of soldering and creating all those probes for Bank Street writer. That

Christina Lewellen 3:19
sounds kind of techie for a first job. Not like Bill pull and Taffy are given out surfboards. I mean, that sounds pretty intense.

Hiram Cuevas 3:26
It was fun. It was fun. I tell you what, though, when you have to you cut this PVC piping all day long for eight hours to make probes. It's not that glorious.

Christina Lewellen 3:35
Speaking of not glorious, I did the typical starting with the babysitting thing and all that. But I eventually got a job through high school working in the dietary department of my local hospital. So that was interesting, like doing the trays and cleaning up the dishes. And I kept that job for years because it was this perfect little window of four to 8pm. And I still had plenty of time to go out and have a social life. So look at the journeys, the long path we traveled. Well, I think that our guest today, first of all, she probably did not go into this field thinking this is what she would do with her life. But I also think that it's kind of cool to see how her journey evolved and where she's at now. So let's welcome to the show. Our guest today is Bonnie Ricky Barney. Hello, how are you? Hi, Kristina.

Bonnie Ricci 4:20
So good to be here. Thank you so much for this invitation. I'm just thrilled to be with you all and Bill and Hiram. It's great to connect with you over this podcast and I'm delighted to be here.

Christina Lewellen 4:32
So Bonnie you probably heard as you were joining the pod that we were talking about our first jobs. So before we go anywhere and even tell anyone who the heck you're with what was your first job?

Bonnie Ricci 4:42
Well, great question. I love it. And Christina, you and I, I knew we had a lot in common. And I have to say that my first job was very similar to your first job, which is I also worked in the kitchen in the dining services have not The hospital but the nursing home that was in the town where I grew up, I remember the weekend shifts that started, I had to be in the kitchen at 6:30am. And I had nothing to do with the preparation of the food. But I was in the dish room. And so watching all this disgusting food and cleaning all the nasty dishes that came through, that was how I spent my early mornings throughout high school.

Christina Lewellen 5:27
Yeah, I feel that in my bones. You've come a long way. So how about now you tell our audience who you work for and what you do now,

Bonnie Ricci 5:35
I have the privilege of serving as the executive director of ICAISA, which is the International Council advancing independent school accreditation. And ICAISA is a nonprofit membership organization that's wholly devoted to accreditation, our members, our accrediting organizations, and really, the primary purpose of ICAISA is as many say, to accredit the accreditors.

Christina Lewellen 6:03
It's a really important role in independent schools accreditation, and we're gonna dive pretty deep into that. But before we do, can you tell us a little bit about the journey from nursing home, yucky dishwasher, to the role that you have now with ICAISA? What did that journey look like for you? Absolutely.

Bonnie Ricci 6:23
So the yucky dishwasher was in the state of Connecticut. So I grew up in Connecticut, went to public school. And really in many ways, I was kind of a teacher at heart. So as a little kid, I had the basement classroom, and my stuffed animals were the students. And so I was really destined in many ways to become a teacher. And in college, I had two experiences that kind of launched me into the education career. The first was that my college had a January term. And so I spent one of those months, it was my junior year. And I interned in a middle school math classroom as sort of a teacher's aide teacher's assistant in the local public elementary school. And I loved that had an incredible time, and enjoyed hanging out with the students and learning how to teach. And so that was a great introduction. And then the second experience in college was deciding to major in anthropology, which not surprisingly, has a lot of parallels to the work of accreditation and serving on a visiting team. So those two college experiences really served me well for my education career. So I spent a little over a decade teaching middle school math at three different independent schools. And while I was at the third school, I had the privilege of serving on a couple accreditation visiting teams. And I also co chaired that school's accreditation, self study. And so really, that enabled me to catch the accreditation bug and I was hooked. I think, in particular, what it did was allowed me to expand my understanding beyond the specific math classroom, into, you know, sort of understanding schools as systems. And so from there, not surprisingly, I moved from the classroom to Association work. And I served as the Assistant Executive Director at AES ni, the Association of Independent schools in New England. And it was there that I oversaw the accreditation process for a sneeze about 80 accredited schools. And again, I really loved that work. I loved connecting deeply with the people in schools I loved really helping schools celebrate their journeys and their progress and setting the course for future directions. I loved thinking about training and how to help visiting team members feel ready to go, and how to help schools design and prepare their self studies. And so from a journey, I found myself at ICAISA. And so I started here in this position in 2019.

Christina Lewellen 9:09
That's pretty incredible. And certainly, I think goes to the point that I was making at the top of the show that none of us really plan to go into the space. So before we dive a little bit deeper into accreditation, can you just tell us like you've been there since 2019? What does your day look like? What do you do

Bonnie Ricci 9:29
that? So that is a great question. I think of the work that in sort of these two buckets. One bucket is that again, we're a membership organization. And so I case a serves as a professional network for accreditation leaders. And so a lot of my work is figuring out how to maintain and bolster that professional relationship, whether it's providing opportunities for members to connect with each other and share best practices and learn from each other. And we do that through both in person events and online events. So it's that network, that's a core bucket of cases work. And then the second bucket is, I mentioned this earlier that I cases role in many ways is to accredit the accreditors. And we do that through what we call a recognition process, and essentially, each of our full members. So just for example, here, the New Jersey Association of Independent Schools, and Bill, I know you're at a school that's accredited by NJ AI s. So New Jersey being one of our member associations, they go through eye cases recognition process, and it's actually quite similar to what a school would go through in terms of its accreditation process. So NJ HS prepares a self study where they document what their accreditation process is. And then in that self study, they're also showing that they are aligned with eye cases standards that define high quality accreditation. And so that recognition process enables associations to show that they're in alignment with cases criteria and standards. And so that is kind of the second big element of AI cases work, we have the associations that are part of ICAISA go through that process in a full, rigorous way every 10 years. And then in addition to that, there is an intensive mid year review at year five, and then an annual check in as well. So as I said, it's very similar to a school's process. And those two things kind of maintaining that professional network and overseeing that recognition process are really the core work of IK ASA.

Christina Lewellen 11:49
Well, no wonder your days are so busy. It makes me even more grateful for your time. That's pretty intense. I'm gonna welcome to the conversation bill, because Bill, I know you're going through accreditation right now at MK, and it's always kind of a big lift. So tell us a little bit about how that's going. What does that look like in your role? And what kind of role are you playing with getting your school through that gauntlet?

Bonnie Ricci 12:15
Yeah, so it's definitely a lift, but it's a worthwhile lift, you know, it's one of those times where as a school, you get to kind of take some time and really look at who you are and what you're doing. And one of the things I always like to equate the processes like this, too, is like, are we walking the walk, we say we do these things, let's take that time and really stop and make sure that you know, we're actually doing what we say we're doing and being held accountable to it. And I think we're very fortunate here at MK to have our Associate Head of School for curriculum and professional development, kind of like leading that charge and really taking ownership of that. And we're coming together at this point, really, as an administrative team, to break those relative pieces out and to have each person take their respective chunks and work through each of those to gather some of that initial information that's then going to be collated and reviewed and put together by everyone. But it's a really deep process where there's a lot of questions, and we're taking time out of our weekly administrative meetings to come together and have conversations and answer questions and to ask questions, and to figure out, okay, who's going to need to be able to be part of the answers to these questions that are asked as part of this process? And one of the things, Bonnie that you said that I thought that really resonated with me is that you thought of schools as systems, are you able to see schools as systems and I think that's an important point to make. Because on the IT side of things, we see the systems for which are under that, quote, unquote, technology umbrella. But there are so many systems within each of the areas that are going through this process of accreditation or reaccreditation. That technology touches that it's often this question that I asked myself as a tech leader in the school, what is my role in this process? Because those things that are firmly slated as technology, but all those underlying systems that need technology support or that have that tied in, often beg those questions. So my question to you with this is, where do you see technology leaders are roles in this process when going through reaccreditation accreditation?

Bell? I love that question. Thank you for that. And I can appreciate the challenges and the opportunities that are presented when a school is going through its intensive self study process. And I think at times the preparation of the self study can feel somewhat siloed or segmented, where you've got the Lower School faculty working on this part of the self study. And then you've got the admissions team working on the admissions question. And then you've got the finance and the board working on the financial metrics. And while there's a certain necessity in documenting those various components of a school, I think in so many ways technology, and I think I might gain some bonus points with your listeners here. Technology in so many ways is the bedrock for a successful self study process. And so you've hit on a few of those points, Bill. But when I think about technology, and how it can support the accreditation process, there's some obvious ways. So sort of the back end, in terms of a school, taking time at the beginning of the process, to think about what structures are we going to use to manage this process? What are some of those tools? Can we have some in house development of some tools or resources to support us? Or do we want to look to an external provider, and in fact, some accrediting associations offer their own portals to support schools with the management of the technology or management of the self study process? And so I think sort of those beginning stages bill to answer your question of when to be involved, I think it's beneficial for technology leaders at their schools to really step up and make it known that they have skills and expertise that's really going to provide an important framework and a foundation for that self study process. And then in addition to that, I would say, and Bill, I'm sure you're familiar with this, in addition to creating and preparing the self study, often there are also supplementary materials and documents that need to be collected. And sometimes those documents are requested to be in hardcopy, and sometimes they can be shared in electronic format. But that's another opportunity for technology leaders in schools to really have a say in what structure to use to share those materials with the visiting team. Because ultimately, at its core, and Bill, you said this, it's a question of the visiting team being able to come and support the school by assessing are you doing what you say you're doing. And as a school, you want to make sure that you're setting the stage and setting that visiting team up for the ability to really hit the ground running when they actually show up on campus. So really having some insights and some conversations, again, at the leadership level around how do we pull together all these additional documents that are part of the accreditation process. And then I think, finally, a fundamental part, or a fundamental way that technology leaders and technology plays a role in the accreditation process is somewhat surprising, actually, because I think a lot of people at the school level feel like once the visiting team leaves that the process is done, they can sort of celebrate internally, and they can say, Okay, we prepared the self study, we hosted the visiting team, and now we're gonna get the report, everything's done. But in reality, the accreditation process is a continuous improvement cycle. And so the accreditor and bill we were talking about nga is serving as your accrediting body for MK a. What NJ HS wants to ensure is that MK AE is not just addressing the immediate challenges that arose as a result of the accreditation process. And all schools have challenges at any point in time. But that above and beyond that, over time, the school is taking steps towards continuous progress and continuous improvement. And I also want to emphasize that those steps need to be owned by the school. So the school has outlined in its strategic plan, hey, here's where we're going. Here's what some of our horizon lines are. And so the accreditation process when done well dovetails with those. And so it's those continuous improvement metrics and markers where technology can continue to have a role in the accreditation process beyond the time when the visiting team does their work. And who's usually

Christina Lewellen 19:06
in charge of overseeing and making sure a school gets the self study piece of it done ahead of the deadlines and all that Bill Hiram, who who leads that or Barney to I mean, it the school what role leads that?

Hiram Cuevas 19:20
In our case, it's our assistant head of school is in charge of it, and then they create the subcommittees as needed. And

Bonnie Ricci 19:28
as I mentioned, when I was first speaking, that's our associate head for curriculum and professional development is where that lies with us. But I think ultimately, it is the head of school who is ultimately responsible for that. But again, it's so large, I mean, it's the process that needs to be delegated and broken in chunks, but I think it's that top down from there.

Christina Lewellen 19:49
So whether it's a head of school or an assistant head in some capacity, is this a once every 10 year thing, or once every five years something to that effect.

Bonnie Ricci 19:59
All jump Been hear and share that the actual accreditation cycle is going to differ based on the association. And so typically, you will have Association accrediting cycles be perhaps 10 years with a intensive five year mid year review. Some associations have a seven year cycle with a mid year at year three or four. But at a minimum, all associations are requiring their schools to do some sort of an annual check in with regard to the progress that they've made on the recommendations from the previous report, or any substantive changes that the school has gone through in the previous year, it's always helpful to keep the accreditation body aware of some of those changes, whether it's a head of school transition, or maybe it's adding a new division or a new grade level, perhaps even incorporating a new campus or a new facility. So those are things that would be helpful to keep the accrediting Association aware of through those substantive change visit descriptions, substantive change reports.

Christina Lewellen 21:09
And I know that a lot of tech leaders serve on visiting teams, I'm going to come to you Barney and ask you about the value of those visiting teams and what they can provide both the school and the people on the teams. But Bill and Hiram, I know you guys have done this. So what does that entail? Why do you do it? Why do you raise your hand and sign up for more stuff you're busy. I think participating in

Hiram Cuevas 21:33
an accreditation team is one of the best professional development opportunities one can have. It gives you the opportunity to see another school, essentially with their laundry out. And it's an opportunity for you to take the best of what that school can do. And bring it back to your own school and share what their successes are. It's a win win, because you're able to provide feedback for the school so that they can improve. But it's also an opportunity for you to bring back some tremendous information and knowledge to your own individual school and turn back the clock a little bit back in 2013, I was part of an accreditation visit for Flint Hill School in Virginia. We use Google Docs for the very first time in 2013. So that's 10 years ago at this point. It was a game changer for that team visit and I was the tech person responsible for helping do that. And I love the fact Barney that you've mentioned that tech is often the foundation I saw Bill cheer when he heard that. But I would also say it's a bridge that as well, because it helps other people see the opportunities that they just didn't know were available to them. Hi,

Bonnie Ricci 22:39
Rob. I love that. And I'm gonna jump in here with a story. So I love the are you sharing that in 2013 I think you said it was the first time the school use Google Docs for that accreditation visit. When I started at AZ the association of independent schools in New England, it was 2008. And I went into my office on my very first day. And I noticed two huge bookshelves. And on those bookshelves were self studies from every squirrel that was part of a journey. And so there were these two or three inch binders for every single school. And some schools had several if they had gone through accreditation through several cycles. And I loved it because it was actually a visual representation of school growth and improvement. And so in some ways, I took a lot of pride in walking into my office and seeing the physical and visual representations of all that growth and progress. And that was back in 2008. And so fast forward several years and E's knees, offices were moving. And of course, whenever you move, it's a great opportunity to assess, okay, what's coming with us? What can we throw out what needs to be put in storage. And so here I am looking at these two bookcases fall of these two to three inch binders. And easily I had over 200 binders. And so it didn't make sense necessarily to pack all those up and bring them into the new office, especially in the days of Google Docs and Google folders. And so Hiram, you're making me remember that at that point, I got out the shredder and had a day and a half of fun shredding, and then throwing the empty binders into the dumpster. I love that story. Because in so many ways it captures that times were changing, obviously for schools, but also for accrediting associations as well. And so the hardcopy days were ending and a new era was upon us. And so I needed to replace the visual sign of those binders with a technological sign of individual Google folders at the time. So I love that story. Hi, room.

You know, I served on a Accreditation Committee probably about two years ago now. And just the sheer volume as you're describing the sheer volume of material that you need to go through in this process, and to not have technology to support that, to help in the dissemination of that information. And the the ability to organize that. I've been here at the school 30 years longer than I like to count. But I can remember walking into some of those rooms early in my career, and just seeing the piles of those binders and the books and the materials, and everything that was there. And it was, you know, to find it, you had to rifle through it, there was no ability just to, you know, search electronically in the folder. So I am really impressed with the way in which technology has at least improved that process, you mentioned, what it's like where technology at the school can help support, bringing that information together and organizing it. But then there's also getting it to everyone that needs to come in. And the other piece of that I think is you could possibly argue both sides of it, but is the ability to make that information available. And then to take that availability away. So that you're not holding on to materials that may be confidential or private, that should not be out there with someone a year or two afterwards that you need to be able to pull that back. And I think technology can help facilitate that security piece on that information as well unlike you might have been able to do before.

Absolutely, Bill and I think that's another way to answer your original question around when should technology leaders step up and step into the process. And I think you bring up a really good point. Because if you don't have that technological lens or the data security lens, you're not necessarily going to remember or be aware of how to change those permissions or how to delete certain files. So that's a really good point, I want to emphasize that one

Christina Lewellen 26:48
of my questions for you is around. Okay, so Hiram says dirty laundry. But let's go with challenges, which is Bonnie's word. Can you tell us? What are some of those challenges, the top challenges that you think in accreditation or reaccreditation process will expose or bring to the surface? What are some of the top challenges schools are often addressing?

Bonnie Ricci 27:15
Christina? That's a great question. I'll answer that in two ways. The first is a little bit of a cop out, which is to say it depends. And I mean that seriously, because I mean that in a way to showcase that each school is unique. And each school has its own mission. And each school has its own opportunities for growth. And each school has its own signature programs or signature elements that really make it unique in these challenging times. And in some independent school markets, where there are a lot of competitor schools right down the road, it's more and more important for schools to identify what are those signature strengths, and to, you know, really double down on those to make sure that the school maintains its competitive position in the marketplace. So it does depend. However, having said that, the second way I'll answer your question is to say that there are some common themes in terms of what the accreditation process reveals, in terms of challenges that schools are facing. In fact, ICAISA has been fortunate to receive a grant from the Edward e Ford Foundation, the E Ford Foundation, to study a subset of those challenges. And in particular, what we are doing at IK. So we're we're in the middle of this project, to look at individual recommendations from visiting team reports. And in particular, we are looking at governance related recommendations. So whether those are recommendations, asking the Board to double down on their professional development at the board level, or maybe it's referencing time to initiate or review strategic plans, or maybe it's something relating to the roles and responsibilities for individual board members. So all of these things are governance challenges that arise in visiting team reports. And so this study that we're in the middle of is looking at 504 individual governance related recommendations from schools. And we are taking that data and we are categorizing it and classifying it and slicing and dicing it to reveal what some of those common challenges are. And then ultimately to determine what are the resources that ik saw or or member accrediting associations can provide to schools so that five years from now or 10 years from now, we're able to address some of those governance challenges. One thing I'll do right now is to sort of revealed some numbers that are hot off the press here from our survey.

Christina Lewellen 29:57
This is cool Breaking News. is talking tech with ATLIS podcast?

Bonnie Ricci 30:04
Exactly, you're getting these numbers even before our membership, I'm loving it. So of these 504 individual recommendations, we categorized each one into one of three buckets. It was either a what we call the governance fundamentals, meaning like really the 101 of governance, things like, as I mentioned, board professional development, or board composition, or examining your bylaws, things like that. And so 53% of the total number of recommendations fell within the category of governance fundamentals. Wow, we also had a third of our recommendations fell into the category of strategic, so meaning strategic planning or generative conversations were board retreats. And then this was a surprise to me, only 14% of those total recommendations explicitly referenced the financial position or the financial circumstances of the school. And so the fact that over half of these recommendations related to governance fundamentals was pretty eye opening. And, of course, this provides some great opportunities for our member associations, and ICAISA, to really double down on perhaps some professional learning for boards as a whole or for individual trustees. And I know all associations within ICAISA. Do that on a regular basis. But we're excited about having received that opportunity in that funding from EA Ford to really dive deep into some of that data specifically related to governance. You know, everyone says, oh, independent schools are facing a lot of governance challenges. So for us to be able to bring some data to those anecdotal stories. We're really excited about the opportunities there.

Christina Lewellen 31:51
Oh, my gosh, I mean, that is breaking news. First of all, I definitely want to tip my hat to the Edward E. Ford Foundation, because there's no other organization that's driving change in the independent school space on a really comprehensive, big picture level, more than II Ford.

Bonnie Ricci 32:10
Absolutely.

Christina Lewellen 32:11
What a fantastic project. And ATLIS has been the beneficiary of it. I know many organizations and schools have been, but oh my gosh, are they moving the needle? So huge shout out to E. Ford. How fantastic. But I think that you're finding that 53% of what you call governance fundamentals being the issue. That doesn't surprise me, because I think that at the risk of alienating folks are speaking out of turn. I mean, I've built a career in governance, and reporting to a board. And there's gotta be a little fire, where there's smoke with all these issues around head turnover, and unhealthy governance practices. So I'm so grateful that you are digging into that. And kudos to the IK PSA leadership, for seeing this opportunity to really put some quantifiable data out into the marketplace. That's so incredible. Absolutely.

Bonnie Ricci 33:07
And you bring up some specific challenges as well, that were certainly embedded in those recommendations. So we're excited to be slicing and dicing that information for sure.

Christina Lewellen 33:19
I'm going to ask you in a minute, Bonnie, about some innovation that you've seen in the accreditation process. But before we move to that, I'd like to just quickly ask my co hosts, Bonnie mentioned, I mean, it's kind of inspiring. You think about accreditation and what it can do in terms of driving change, especially for schools to address these challenges head on. Do you guys have any examples of where your schools and you've both had long tenures at your schools? That you had a challenge or a recommendation that you needed to address? And then it actually drove some change? I mean, do you see the needle moving due to accreditation? You

Bonnie Ricci 33:57
know, you talked about professional development for boards. I think for us, one of the things that we looked at was our faculty originally in terms of developing a professional growth plan for them and their evaluation, and what that looks like and one of our colleagues here, Steve Valentine, he really kind of moved the needle for us on that and getting that whole piece going and making that work and where that has kind of evolved into, you know, because again, all the focus is on the education of our students. So you'd be focused on the faculty, where that has now moved into is looking at the evaluation of non teaching employees, non faculty. So how are we evaluating those that are in the different areas that support the other areas of the school? So from admissions to business office to development, those things and it's really interesting to see how that process started with and came about from, you know, some of the pieces that were part of the recommendations from the crediting process, and how those really are evolved things here in areas over really a long period of time. And just the value that that brings to us to continue to keep ourselves in check with walking that walk

Hiram Cuevas 35:11
had been at St. Christopher's now, for 32 years, I've been through a number of self studies here on campus and the one that sticks out the most. We're a big campus, and we have three distinct schools, we have a lower middle and upper school much like MK does. And I think one of the challenges in my early tenure here was that we are often looking at the schools as three distinct entities as well. And so the communal identity wasn't quite the same, like the Lower School did things a certain way, the middle school did things a certain way, the upper school did things a certain way. And so there was emphasis on creating that one school and the opportunity for people to meet and CO mingle and have conversations strategically about scope and sequence both vertically and horizontally across the curriculum. And I think that was one of the first real opportunities to see some growth across the entire campus with a distinct goal in mind that really benefited everybody in the long run. Because eventually, what we started to see is, that particular process was helpful for us also in the technology realm, because we were looking at, you know, how can we support our teachers best that we needed to make sure that we had the resources available, not just in one division, who happened to maybe have the equipment that was necessary, but also prepare the next division that would be receiving the equipment as you grew into your access model at your school? This is very, very early on in the process when you're talking about having technology at a school. And so it was really important for us to take away that three separate school model and look at us holistically to enhance the program as a whole. Yeah,

Christina Lewellen 36:54
that's really interesting. Thank you for that, guys. So as promised, now let's go to you, Bonnie, because you and I've had conversations before for access points magazine, we interact with each other because ATLIS is an associate member of ICAISA. Yes, I know, you and I have had these conversations, but you're like a innovation. You're kind of slightly obsessed, I think, with driving some innovation in the space. It's not your age old binders accreditation. So speak to us a little bit about your philosophies there.

Bonnie Ricci 37:26
Yeah, well, thanks for that. Shout out, Christine, I do kind of embrace innovation, in part because I think accreditation hasn't always been an innovative process. And I think the criticisms of it, certainly were fair at some point, which is to say that the accreditation process has been criticized, as you know, keeping schools back in the dark ages, or punishing schools for innovative efforts, because they don't align explicitly to the particular accreditation standards. So a couple of innovations. And I'm gonna get to the first one, by referencing Hiram what you were just saying about the three divisions at your school and how, as a community, you were able to really make the self study your own by bringing those conversations together. And you spoke about the curriculum and scope and sequence vertically and horizontally. And so I think one of the innovations around the self study preparation are opportunities for schools to really own the self study process and make it their own. And I'm going to give a big shout out here, Christina, to your colleagues and the technology leaders across your membership, because I know explicitly some schools that have incorporated specific elements into their own self study process, and one in particular, is that ATLIS 360, self study guide, and then the companion manual. And I know you sent me the copies of this when it was hot off the press. And I was just so impressed with the level of depth in those discussion questions, and the numerous resources and sample policies and really just the incredible wealth of information that are in those two documents. And I know some schools have incorporated that and are, in some ways, kind of expanding the self study to incorporate the role of technology in their schools through using that ATLIS 360. And there's other opportunities as well, for schools to really make the self study their own. Some schools have created their own surveys of the parent community, specifically with regard to kind of the strengths and challenges at the school. And they're incorporating those results into the self study process and sharing those results with the members of the visiting team. Again, just to get that external perspective, and there's really so many innovations happening. Another is that some association are offering schools different models of the self study. And Hiram the VA is the Virginia Association of Independent Schools was one of the first associations to do this. And that is to say that for schools that are going through the accreditation process for the first time, the model is a I want to say kind of cut and dry, straightforward alignment to the accreditation standards. Whereas schools that have been through the accreditation and the RE accreditation process are looking for a more robust process, or perhaps a process that's specifically dovetailed with their strategic plan. That's a different model of a self study. So there's still that compliance aspect. But there's certainly plenty of information that the school shares with regard to its continuous improvement. And it's not just tied to the accreditation standards, so the different self study models. And then third, and this is kind of cutting edge here, I imagine all of you have would have some interesting perspectives on this. But I think when we talk about innovation and accreditation, we have to talk about AI. And so can AI as a tool, be useful to support schools in the self study process, obviously, I need to put this caution out there that that is to say that anything created by AI must be reviewed and edited for sure. It's not going to be 100% accurate, but it can be a real time saver. So I know specifically, of at least one school, and I'm sure there's many more that are using AI to sort of clean up their self study document. So their plan is to do the typical self study preparation, which is to have the various committees write their sections of the self study, but then they're gonna put that writing into chat GPT. And they're going to ask it to identify discrepancies or redundancies, and as I said, kind of use AI as a tool to clean up that final self study. And so I think we really need to be asking these questions around, how can some of these innovative tools like aI really support schools in their accreditation process, and I think accrediting associations that are part of ICAISA are asking these questions as well. So just very briefly, one of the things I mentioned at the beginning of the podcast was the professional network of accreditors. And we meet as a group twice a year. And so our upcoming meeting is going to be just prior to the NAICS annual conference in St. Louis in February of 2024. And we have dedicated an afternoon of our two day meeting to AI and accreditation. So it'd be lovely to get some of your thoughts and input from some technology leaders who I am sure are in the midst of these exact conversations. Yeah, absolutely.

Christina Lewellen 42:54
And, and thank you for the shout out on ATLIS 360. I mean, ATLIS 360, was designed by a team of people led by Don Cluse. And she was the director of accreditation and Isaac's Absolutely, yep, the whole point of it is that it is a self study guide specific for technology in independent schools. And so we do see schools using it as their self study specific to tech as they go through accreditation, but I also see schools using it just to audit themselves and think through things. So even if they're not in the depths in the throes of re accreditation on somebody else's timeline, some other accrediting organizations schedule, we're seeing that schools use the ATLIS 360 self study to ask those important questions. And by the way, it was updated last fall to include pertinent questions around AI. Oh, there you go. Perfect, that schools need to be asking about AI. So what I'm really proud of Barney is that the accreditation bodies have so many balls in the air because schools are such a complex ecosystem, that I'm really proud that ATLIS keeps its eye on a very specific ball. And that is one of technology and innovation in our schools. And so our ATLIS 360 self study questions are always going to be kind of cutting edge like we're going to make sure we ask the questions that schools are juggling and dealing with right now. But I love to hear about how you guys are looking to embrace AI in appropriate and thoughtful ways. That's really incredible. I think it speaks to the fact that just like ATLIS is paying attention to tech AI cases paying attention to best practices in accreditation, and it's really a testament to your organization. Thank

Bonnie Ricci 44:45
you, Christina. Yeah, I think accreditation and innovation have to be explored so that they can legitimately be in the same sentence together.

Christina Lewellen 44:53
Love it. You know you and I have also a cool experience to talk about tell was a little bit about how I case a found itself in Leiden in the Netherlands. And I was there as part of the organization. It was a really profound, incredible. And it's not that we just took a long plane ride, to have yet another meeting in another city, right you and your planning team did a really incredible job of really heading us right square between the eyes in terms of global education and trends in that space. So tell us a little bit about that recent meeting. I think it was really memorable.

Bonnie Ricci 45:29
Oh, awesome. And Christina, we were so glad to have you there with us, our September 2023 meetings. So this was the first time that ICAISA held one of our semi annual meetings outside of the US. The meeting was in Leiden, the Netherlands, which is about a half an hour train ride south of Amsterdam. And we met at the offices of one of our members, the Council of international schools, and they graciously hosted us for a three day meeting. And you're right, Christina, it was an incredible opportunity to really put the international lens on independent education and international education. And so we had a variety of speakers that spoke to some of these topics. Governance, like I was just talking about student health and well being was also featured prominently in our few days together. And then we had this theme around intelligently predicting the future, we spent some time with the international schools, anti discrimination task force leadership. And they had presented some recommendations for accreditors, to ensure that school communities are inclusive spaces for students and for the adults within those communities. And I also wanted to take this opportunity, Christina to talk a little bit about how it was that you was the executive director of ATLIS, which is not an accrediting organization, found yourself at the meeting of I ICAISA. And so one of the things I'm most proud of in terms of ICAISA in our positioning is that we all believe, to our core, that accreditors have to understand and expose ourselves to the landscape and to the trends and the themes that are happening outside of the immediate accreditation space. And so one of the ways we do that is by leaning on various associations and organizations, some of which operate in the independent school space, but others which operate sort of more broadly in the education space, we want as accreditors, we want to lean into their expertise. And we want them so to speak at the table when we're talking about important conversations that impact accreditation and the strength of schools. And so ICAISA added our associate membership category, really just a little over a year ago. And Christina, you encouraged ATLIS and your ATLIS board to be one of our first few associate members. And we are so grateful for your involvement. And so we invite our associate members to join us at the semi annual meetings. And I can say with 100% certainty that your presence Christina, and the presence of your fellow associate members, being at the table has really bolstered the conversations that we're having the discussions that we're having, you're bringing such important insights to our accreditation community, and we couldn't be happier to have you around the table with us.

Unknown Speaker 48:36
Thank you. Absolutely.

Bonnie Ricci 48:38
We were in Leiden, back in September, we're going to be in St. Louis in February. We're just really excited to have these two in person meetings a year to really bolster that professional network and ensure that the accreditation process is beneficial not just for schools, but ultimately for the experience of the students that are in those schools. That's what it's all about for sure.

So but one question I have is, you know, going through, what was our accreditation document that we had in terms of reading through what all the questions aren't seeing those? And I'm sure you see a lot of those given the chair in which you sit? Are there areas where you would like to see more information or more support for technology related topics in any of these areas. And I'll give you an example. Just to kind of set the stage for it. It's like when I looked at our security section of what was in our accreditation, it dealt a lot with physical security. It dealt with a lot of security as it related to individuals. So like what are your fire drills like? What are all of your, you know, all the other things that relate to like lock downs, how often are you doing these things? What do they look like? Ours really didn't touch on a lot of technology related security measures, which I think when you Think about the cyber landscape that's out there right now, when you think about a lot of those different pieces really didn't come through in what I was reading was being asked of us. Do you see any areas as you look at all of these where you think, what are you asking about technology here? And could you be asking me more? It's a tough question. I know, because you could get very nitpicky with a lot of these things as I have with this one security area.

Yeah, this is a great point, Bill. And I think in some ways, especially within the US, I think we're a little bit behind the eight ball in terms of cybersecurity, certainly, in the UK, the GDPR has been in place now for several years. And that guides policy around data protection and security. We've also heard of now numerous schools a year that are being hit by cyber attacks. And some are going so far as to say it's not a question of if it's a question of when. And so I think accreditation standards and practices have to always be leaning into the future. accreditors have to be tuning into the margins to understand what are those, and I put trends in quotes here. But what are sort of those trends or those signals that are happening out in the broader educational landscape that really will have an effect on schools, and your comments around data protection, cybersecurity, those are important ones, to make sure that we at ik ASA can establish our standards so that we're highlighting some of those key technology related elements. Because ultimately, again, it's about the strength of an individual school and how it's making progress. So I think your point in many ways bill is one that allows me to kind of reiterate opportunities that ICAISA has to connect with leaders in various fields of expertise to ensure that we as accreditors are not just existing within our own echo chamber. And technology is a perfect sphere for that. Because if it weren't for the expertise of our technology leaders, I think, to your point, the questions would be around, you know, how do you protect laptops? Do you have passwords on your laptops or, or even worse on your graphing calculators. So we really do need to be tuned in to really what's happening on the horizon lines. And so technology is certainly one of those areas. And I'm sure there are opportunities for continued improvement in terms of either ICAO standards along those lines, or certainly at the individual accreditation agency level.

Christina Lewellen 52:42
Barney, I think that this is why it's so valuable to have these types of conversations and that you have the specialized expertise in accreditation. And we appreciate that you're sort of keeping your eye on that ball, because you're bringing a lot of perspective to our community and to our podcast listeners that maybe they hadn't thought about before. Because I would imagine that sometimes, technology leaders, depending on where they sit in their organization, they probably contribute what they contribute to accreditation, and then maybe it goes away for eight more years. Right? Like they don't really have to think about it. Yeah, exactly. I mean, these yearly check ins are really valuable and important for schools to kind of continually look at progress. But for technology leaders, we also obviously would support continual progress and development and PD in the tech space. Is there anything that you can say or anything that you would offer in terms of a recommendation for teams that are committed to continuous development, even if they're not directly influencing or a part of their accreditation at their school? Yeah,

Bonnie Ricci 53:49
that's a great question, Christina. I think the best way for me to answer that is to really highlight what we all have been talking about throughout this whole podcast, which is the opportunity for technology leaders to provide both support and innovation in the process. So the supportive elements in the innovative elements, they don't have to exist exclusively within this accreditation bubble. Those are ways that technology leaders can be supporting the growth of their schools, even outside of the typical accreditation cycle. So what are the ways that technology leaders at their schools can be part of those leadership conversations around kind of the strategic priorities and the strategic futures for the school? And so that's another opportunity for tech leaders to really, in many ways, kind of exert their influence and say, These are elements of the school that we need to be tapped into and thinking about in order to ensure that we're the best possible institution and providing the best possible experience for our students. So I think again, just kind of circling back to support and innovate ation as kind of the key ways for technology leaders to have an impact in their schools.

Christina Lewellen 55:05
Well, I think that this has been so incredibly useful. And I obviously will shout from the rooftops when this episode becomes available that people need to listen to it because there's been so much incredible meat on the bone here in terms of thinking through. But Barney, when you're not actually the guest on a podcast. Are you a podcast listener? Like what are some of your favorites, Hiram? And Bill and I have talked about this, but what are some of your favorite podcasts?

Bonnie Ricci 55:30
Oh, that's awesome. I love that question. What a great way to, to bring this to conclusion. Oh, my gosh, I have quite a few podcasts. I'll give you some of my favorites. And I think this will give you some insight into how I think it's fine when I'm not doing accreditation work.

Christina Lewellen 55:49
This is a window to our guests souls. I mean, I love it. I think this is my favorite question we need to ask every single time. Absolutely.

Bonnie Ricci 55:58
All right. So I've got three I'm going to share. And they're all kind of different. So the first one is called Stuff You Should Know, they have both short versions, which are about 1015 minutes, and then longer versions, 45 minutes to an hour. And they're on completely random topics. So they did one recently on a particular bat, and how it had the disease that bats are getting. And it's just stuff you should know things you should be tuned into. So I love that podcast. Another one I love is the Jordan Harbinger show. And he just interviews fascinating people who have incredible experiences, whether it is visiting other countries or living in other countries, or political prisoners, or spies and psychological insights. It's just fascinating. And he's an incredible interviewer. And I guess the third one I'd say is kind of along those lines of spies. And this is a relatively new podcast, but it's called The Langley files. And it's to CIA operatives, who are the hosts, and they interview current and former CIA special agents. And they also talk about some of the recently declassified information on various missions. And one of their actually, it was a two part episode, you probably saw that movie Argo. So they actually shared some of the secrets around the Argo scenario and how they got those hostages freed. Those are the three I would mention. But yeah, I love podcasts. And it's just a fun way to tap into some of the themes and ideas outside of the education space.

Christina Lewellen 57:42
I love it. Well, that is a very eclectic mix, and three that we have not yet dropped on this pod. So I'm loving that. Bonnie, thank you so much for your time. I'm so grateful that you came and shared your expertise. And feel free to circle back with us as things evolve. And as you guys get your heads wrapped around what to do about the AI challenge, we'd love to have you back to talk about it. Absolutely.

Bonnie Ricci 58:07
Well, thank you, Christina, and Bill and Hiram, so great to connect with you both as well. And let me just say thank you for hosting this podcast. I've listened to a couple of the episodes and you're just bringing such great insights to the broader educational industry. And I know it's a new endeavor, I just really appreciate having the chance to hear from some of the leaders that you've been interviewing. Thank you also for this opportunity to share a little bit about ICAISA, and how technology is so interwoven into the accreditation process. It was a pleasure to chat with you all today.

Christina Lewellen 58:43
Thank you, Bonnie, appreciate you. Thanks for saying that.

Hiram Cuevas 58:46
Thank you so much, Bonnie,

Bonnie Ricci 58:47
it was great to have you here, Bonnie. Thanks.

Christina Lewellen 58:49
So guys, as we wrap up yet another episode, I don't know about you. But I'm so pleased that we had Barney to kind of deconstruct accreditation a little bit, because I would imagine that at schools, maybe it elicits some eye rolls, like how do you guys fit this in? That's my question, right? It's like when you have a million things going on, and then it's your year, you've cycled into your reaccreditation. Does that like send you like your stress levels through the roof? Or is it just something you're used to at this point,

Bonnie Ricci 59:20
I think there's a certain degree of stress, just because of when you look at the sheer volume of information that you need to produce, you're like there's so much here. But if you chunk it, if you put it into the pieces, that you know, each person is going to be responsible, and then you take the team approach. You get together, you sit down, you do it as a group, and you really just kind of tackle it and get it done. And again, I think so much of it is work that really you can use not just for the process, but really you can use in the next five years until you get to that five year mark where you've got to reassess because I think it can work as one of those guides that you use at your school to help drive change drive innovation. And really, again, hold you to who you say you are as an institution. It's

Christina Lewellen 1:00:08
interesting, I've never thought about accreditation as a team building exercise, but you just drop that bomb here at the end of the episode. That's kind of interesting. Hi, Rome is a team building. It's absolutely better than a ropes course, or

Hiram Cuevas 1:00:21
I don't know about a ropes course. I mean, there's, there's some excitement there. But if you really take the accreditation process and realize that you get out of it, what you put into it. And so much of that is setting the stage early on with your team members, because at the end, you really want to have a deliverable that benefits the school as a whole. I know Bill and I have served in varying capacities as visiting committees for educational collaborators when we're looking at different schools in the IT side of the house. And you can tell when some schools have shortchanged themselves by not doing the work ahead of time, versus those schools that have given you absolutely everything that they want you to know in order for us to write the recommendations that they need in order for their schools to take us to the next level. So

Christina Lewellen 1:01:08
in other words, the moral of our story today is get psyched about accreditation. Absolutely, exactly. Well, man, we had the perfect guest today to talk us through that because I'm excited about it, maybe because I don't have to do it myself. But I'm loving this conversation. And again, I'm loving that she was able to walk us through some of the big picture things wasn't that incredible,

Hiram Cuevas 1:01:27
great stuff. Let's get pumped.

Christina Lewellen 1:01:29
pumped for accreditation. All right. With that, we'll sign off. This has been talking technology with ATLIS. Thank you so much for joining us and being a part of this journey with us, as I've said on social media to some folks, this has quickly become one of the favorite perks of my job and not just because I get to hang out with you guys. Thank you both. Thank you. Hi, Ron. Have a great day.

Narrator 1:01:51
This has been talking technology with ATLIS produced by the Association of technology leaders and independent schools. For more information about ATLIS and ATLIS membership, please visit the ATLIS.org If you enjoyed this discussion, please subscribe, leave a review and share this podcast with your colleagues in the independent school community. Thank you for listening.