Purposeful AI Agents with Microsoft Education’s Dr. Geri Gillespy
Presented by:
Dr. Geri Gillespy joins the podcast to discuss the transition from AI consumption to purposeful production. She shares her "three-legged stool" framework for change management and explores the emerging role of AI agents in independent schools. Learn how workforce development and human-in-the-loop practices ensure technology amplifies, rather than replaces, human creativity.
- Microsoft Elevate for Educators, program designed to provide educators and school leaders with access to a global community, professional development, and resources to confidently integrate AI into teaching and learning.
- Cyber Tabletop Simulation Game
- Elevate webinars -- available to all? She mentioned “webinar I did yesterday”
- Copyright gem
- Mofongo, dish from Puerto Rico with plantains as its main ingredient
- Fungo, special baseball bats used for training
Transcript
Peter Frank:
Dan, welcome to Talking technology with ATLIS,
Peter Frank:
the show that plugs you into the important topics and trends for
Peter Frank:
technology leaders all through a unique Independent School lens.
Peter Frank:
We'll hear stories from technology directors and other
Peter Frank:
special guests from the Independent School community,
Peter Frank:
and provide you with focused learning and deep dive topics.
Peter Frank:
And now please welcome your host, Christina Lewellen,
Christina Lewellen:
Hello everyone, and welcome back to
Christina Lewellen:
talking technology with ATLIS. I'm Christina Lewellen, the
Christina Lewellen:
President and CEO of the Association of technology
Christina Lewellen:
leaders in independent schools.
Bill Stites:
And I am Bill Stites, the Director of
Bill Stites:
Technology at Montclair Kimberly Academy in Montclair, New
Bill Stites:
Jersey. And I'm
Hiram Cuevas:
Hiram Cuevas, the Director of Information Systems
Hiram Cuevas:
and Academic Technology at St Christopher school in Richmond,
Hiram Cuevas:
Virginia.
Christina Lewellen:
Hello, gentlemen. How are you today,
Bill Stites:
enjoying spring break and getting stuff done
Bill Stites:
when no one is in the building? Well, that's exciting. I don't
Bill Stites:
know if it's exciting, it's productive.
Hiram Cuevas:
We're starting the pollen ing season here in
Hiram Cuevas:
Virginia. So it's just unbelievable. It's no joke.
Bill Stites:
So I just thought you needed a haircut. That's all
Bill Stites:
pollen up and going on.
Hiram Cuevas:
Yep, all pollen, the pollen
Bill Stites:
ing, okay, great.
Christina Lewellen:
The great pollen in here in Virginia. It
Christina Lewellen:
happens every year. I didn't realize how bad it was till I
Christina Lewellen:
moved down here and y'all, I brought a friend today, Ashley
Christina Lewellen:
on our team. Dr Ashley cross from ATLIS, hello, welcome. Good
Christina Lewellen:
morning. How are you today?
Ashley Cross:
Hey, fantastic. Glad to be tagging along on this
Ashley Cross:
episode.
Christina Lewellen:
So Ashley just jumped in because she
Christina Lewellen:
wanted to listen, because our guest is really exciting. And I
Christina Lewellen:
said, Well, you're here, so why don't we level out some of the
Christina Lewellen:
male female ratio that we have going on on this pod? So I
Christina Lewellen:
brought a friend today.
Ashley Cross:
You guys, that's right, we're teaming up.
Bill Stites:
Just to be clear, it was level. It was 5050, you
Bill Stites:
just upped your game.
Christina Lewellen:
Exactly. The guest pushes it over the edge.
Christina Lewellen:
Now, before we jump in and introduce our guest, I do have
Christina Lewellen:
to say Hiram. I think I mentioned when we recorded last
Christina Lewellen:
that I was getting on a plane and heading to Puerto Rico. Oh,
Christina Lewellen:
you're right. I did go with some there are two CEO friends of
Christina Lewellen:
mine, very dear friends of mine, Tara puckey and Lindsay curry.
Christina Lewellen:
We all kind of came into our CEO jobs roughly at the same age,
Christina Lewellen:
and to have a couple of girlfriends to be able to just
Christina Lewellen:
go hang out at a beach house with is just one of life's
Christina Lewellen:
greatest gifts. She introduced me, or re introduced me to
Christina Lewellen:
mufongo. Oh yes, when we went out to a super local restaurant,
Christina Lewellen:
right? We went and stayed on kind of like the northwest side
Christina Lewellen:
of the island, which is very beach surfer y kind of vibes.
Christina Lewellen:
And we just sat at these restaurants like most people
Christina Lewellen:
didn't have shoes on. They had just come in from the water.
Christina Lewellen:
They threw their surfboards down and came in to grab a drink. And
Christina Lewellen:
it was just the most chill, relaxed. We stayed in the
Christina Lewellen:
Isabella area, and it was delightful. The food was
Christina Lewellen:
incredible, and I cannot wait to go back, but I did not have
Christina Lewellen:
Coquito because it is the wrong time of year for all
Hiram Cuevas:
of that. I think it's never the wrong time for
Hiram Cuevas:
Coquito. There were a lot of
Christina Lewellen:
margaritas happening, though.
Hiram Cuevas:
Now I will share a fun story, since you brought up
Hiram Cuevas:
mufongo. Oh, I loved it. What is it? What is it? It's crushed
Hiram Cuevas:
plantains. It's plantains, yes. Essentially you're mortar and
Hiram Cuevas:
Pete. So you crush the plantains, and then you could
Hiram Cuevas:
put shrimp, you could put chicken, you name it. You can
Hiram Cuevas:
put all sorts of great food in there, because
Bill Stites:
baseball wise, fungo is a bat, yes. So it's
Bill Stites:
like mufongo. I think you're like playing a sport now at
Hiram Cuevas:
graduation to full Coliseum at William and Mary,
Hiram Cuevas:
and I wanted to make sure that my parents could see me from the
Hiram Cuevas:
ground where they were seated. So on my mortarboard, I wrote
Hiram Cuevas:
mufongo on it, and they found me like that.
Christina Lewellen:
Hiram, this is the best story ever. Okay,
Christina Lewellen:
I'm gonna tell Tara and Lindsay. Tara had been there before, so
Christina Lewellen:
she's the one who was like, I dream of this mufongo At this
Christina Lewellen:
place. We must go back. We must have it. We ended up eating at
Christina Lewellen:
that restaurant twice while we were there. It was so great.
Hiram Cuevas:
Which version did you get? Did you get it with the
Hiram Cuevas:
shrimp?
Christina Lewellen:
Of course, shrimp, total shrimp, sheeted
Christina Lewellen:
steak. Yep. It was delightful.
Hiram Cuevas:
You can also put cod in there, codfish in there
Hiram Cuevas:
as well. And it's just, you can't go wrong. Oh, you guys.
Christina Lewellen:
So now I'm hungry and I want to go back.
Christina Lewellen:
Well, I want to go back for more than the mufongo, but I do want
Christina Lewellen:
to go back to Puerto Rico. Ashley, are you familiar with
Christina Lewellen:
this dish? Have you done this? Girl?
Ashley Cross:
I lived in Miami. Yes. Many, many happy memories.
Ashley Cross:
I miss all of the
Hiram Cuevas:
amazing food. I love it, mufongo, chicharrones
Christina Lewellen:
totones, yes, poor Bill. Bill, maybe we
Christina Lewellen:
need to do a retreat, a pod retreat. We'll go down to Puerto
Christina Lewellen:
Rico, yes, and introduce you to some culture, because New Jersey
Christina Lewellen:
boy up there has no idea what we're talking about. Thank you.
Christina Lewellen:
Yeah, he'll bring his
Bill Stites:
bride along. Yeah, she'll love it. She's been dying
Bill Stites:
to go speak Spanish.
Christina Lewellen:
Definitely take her. Highly recommend. All
Christina Lewellen:
right. Well, with this, let's bring our guest in. So Dr Jerry
Christina Lewellen:
Gillespie, thank you so much for joining us on this podcast. The
Christina Lewellen:
floor is yours. Have you anything to say about mufongo or
Christina Lewellen:
Puerto Rico,
Unknown:
or otherwise, I'm gonna have to try mufongo. I honestly
Unknown:
have been to Miami because I work a lot, especially across
Unknown:
and visiting with different education customers and leaders
Unknown:
in that too. So I'm gonna have to try definitely that you had
Unknown:
me at beach? Yeah, I grew up in middle of California, outside
Unknown:
Silicon Valley, and get to the beach in 30 minutes. And so you
Unknown:
can take the girl out of Cali, but you can't take Cali out of
Unknown:
the girl. So soon as you said beach, I was right with you.
Christina Lewellen:
I love it. Dr Gillespie, I appreciate you
Christina Lewellen:
being here with us. This is exciting for us to have you on
Christina Lewellen:
the podcast, because you come from a really large
Christina Lewellen:
organization, but you also have really deep roots in education.
Christina Lewellen:
So why don't I give you a minute to introduce yourself, and then
Christina Lewellen:
we will kind of dive in.
Geri Gillespy:
Yes, it's honestly been a roller coaster
Geri Gillespy:
in a crazy career, and how I ended up where I end up here.
Geri Gillespy:
You know, I am an industry advisor at Microsoft. I support
Geri Gillespy:
United States and Canada, and I often get asked that question
Geri Gillespy:
of, how did you end up here? Because I spent all of my career
Geri Gillespy:
in education. My oldest son turned 30 last year, and, you
Geri Gillespy:
know, I had him in May, and I was in a classroom, supporting
Geri Gillespy:
classroom, and working in education in that fall after I
Geri Gillespy:
had him. So it's been that long that I have been a classroom
Geri Gillespy:
teacher, I've been an instructional coach for math and
Geri Gillespy:
science, I've been a building leader, I've been a director for
Geri Gillespy:
instructional technology, and then I've been an interim
Geri Gillespy:
superintendent and stepped in. So I've got four degrees in
Geri Gillespy:
education, because honestly, if you asked me 20 years ago if
Geri Gillespy:
I've had him, I thought you'd be crazy, but I believe in failing
Geri Gillespy:
forward. And throughout my career, I have no problem of
Geri Gillespy:
trying to take some risk and going forward. And that's I kept
Geri Gillespy:
ending up back in school every time in that space, but that's
Geri Gillespy:
been my background. I enjoy conversations and meeting new
Geri Gillespy:
people and looking about how we can support learners the best we
Geri Gillespy:
can in communities always, which you could say been a square peg
Geri Gillespy:
in a round pole. So I've never really fit even when I was
Geri Gillespy:
teaching, I think I drove my administrators crazy
Christina Lewellen:
in good ways,
Geri Gillespy:
oh, in good ways and things of trying to do. I
Geri Gillespy:
mean, I took a whole class out into the ocean in the Bay in San
Geri Gillespy:
Francisco area because I turned them into oceanographers. I set
Geri Gillespy:
up colonies up in the mountains, in the Sierras, and even as a
Geri Gillespy:
building principal, I had school. We were in project based
Geri Gillespy:
learning, and it got involved in the city of health planning
Geri Gillespy:
parks, and I've just always been looking at ways that we could
Geri Gillespy:
push that envelope. And so that's what I'm doing now, still
Geri Gillespy:
in my career and helping other educational leaders and people
Geri Gillespy:
come and join the conversation.
Christina Lewellen:
So you have four degrees in education. That
Christina Lewellen:
might be a first in our space. Please describe my friends.
Geri Gillespy:
I bet you there's more out there too that are like
Geri Gillespy:
me. It just happens that way. So you can get your bachelor's. I
Geri Gillespy:
have a bachelor's in human development, emphasis in
Geri Gillespy:
education, went through and certification to become an
Geri Gillespy:
educator at that time in California, and then wanted to
Geri Gillespy:
become an administrator. So got a Master's in Education
Geri Gillespy:
Leadership, and honestly thought I was just going to stay there.
Geri Gillespy:
My first principalship, I inherited a building that was
Geri Gillespy:
what I call in testing jail. This was also during the
Geri Gillespy:
recession, early in the 2000s and so I had, you know, I got
Geri Gillespy:
called into the superintendent's office two days after I got the
Geri Gillespy:
job, and I figured, I cannot be in trouble yet. And they said,
Geri Gillespy:
you know, we are cutting nine instructional days. You've got
Geri Gillespy:
staff of 67 630 something students every program. And by
Geri Gillespy:
the way, we don't have a VP next year, and if we don't raise math
Geri Gillespy:
scores, the whole building will be reorged. So I went in, dove
Geri Gillespy:
into the challenge. A lot of times I talk about my career and
Geri Gillespy:
things happening as blessings and a curse, and being through
Geri Gillespy:
that experience and that too, I was happy to be there. I had
Geri Gillespy:
amazing, amazing teachers. I learned how to get them in front
Geri Gillespy:
of our students first. We changed how we did things in the
Geri Gillespy:
building. We implemented one of the first blended learning
Geri Gillespy:
programs across the state, and we climbed our way out and built
Geri Gillespy:
more than just trying to answer the test, but we built a
Geri Gillespy:
community that was career and college focus, even with these
Geri Gillespy:
elementary students, and we became one of the highest
Geri Gillespy:
performing schools in the district and in the state. So
Geri Gillespy:
with that, my superintendent said, Can you come do that at
Geri Gillespy:
the district level and the. That's how I ended up, honestly
Geri Gillespy:
with then my next degree, because I failed miserably when
Geri Gillespy:
I went to district office, I'll be honest, I tried to get too
Geri Gillespy:
caught up in, you know, the theory and the models. And
Geri Gillespy:
honestly, the educators I was working that just wanted to know
Geri Gillespy:
how to serve their students best. They just want to know how
Geri Gillespy:
it worked and how they can make that to help students learn. And
Geri Gillespy:
so when I went back for my Ed specialist, it was about system
Geri Gillespy:
and bringing that and learning about systems and how to support
Geri Gillespy:
that transition in systems. And then we did it again. We created
Geri Gillespy:
a district that became one of the fifth producing districts in
Geri Gillespy:
the country. And so it was more than that. That I was about the
Geri Gillespy:
community in the team I can't stress out enough. Leadership is
Geri Gillespy:
a role of empowering those around you to be able to be the
Geri Gillespy:
best they can. And I've been able to see that in my career
Geri Gillespy:
specifically, and then it just went from there to my doctorate.
Christina Lewellen:
So impressive, truly. And now you
Christina Lewellen:
are at Microsoft, yes. So tell us a little bit about that,
Christina Lewellen:
because I think that there's sometimes a perception that
Christina Lewellen:
Microsoft is kind of a corporate product, and so it's really cool
Christina Lewellen:
and interesting to and part of why we wanted to have a
Christina Lewellen:
conversation with you is like, talk to us about Microsoft in
Christina Lewellen:
Education.
Geri Gillespy:
Microsoft even made an announcement last summer
Geri Gillespy:
about how they have even reorged to address education even more
Geri Gillespy:
in K 12 around the globe, and community colleges here in the
Geri Gillespy:
United States, and now we are something called Microsoft
Geri Gillespy:
Elevate, and I'll get back to that in a moment, but I ended up
Geri Gillespy:
in Microsoft actually about was little over five years ago. It
Geri Gillespy:
was before the pandemic in early 2020, and I was looking for
Geri Gillespy:
change. I was just finishing my doctorate, and I'd been working
Geri Gillespy:
very closely with the customer engagement team in the
Geri Gillespy:
engineering EU product team in Microsoft. The most amazing
Geri Gillespy:
people that I've got the opportunity to work with. They
Geri Gillespy:
are passionate about what they do in supporting educators they
Geri Gillespy:
build. You know that the solution and tools they bring in
Geri Gillespy:
educator voice, we were part of many of their programs that are
Geri Gillespy:
there today. You can join our education insiders program.
Geri Gillespy:
There is a TAP program that leaders can get involved with
Geri Gillespy:
and have that direct contact and feedback. My dissertation work
Geri Gillespy:
was about shifts of practice, and how do we support
Geri Gillespy:
professional identity and educators and give them a voice
Geri Gillespy:
in helping them with that change management piece. And I worked
Geri Gillespy:
very closely with these teams about their solutions and
Geri Gillespy:
engaging our educators in that time into what was happening,
Geri Gillespy:
and that's how I got to know them very well. And so when I
Geri Gillespy:
was looking for a change in career, and things were shifting
Geri Gillespy:
at the district I was in, in leadership, you know, they said,
Geri Gillespy:
why don't you come give us a try? At first, I reached out to
Geri Gillespy:
some of my colleagues. You talked about your girlfriends
Geri Gillespy:
that you were able to go away with, you know, I have that
Geri Gillespy:
within my Ed Tech leadership family. And so I reached out to
Geri Gillespy:
them and said, I'm like crazy. I'm going to leave what I have
Geri Gillespy:
been doing in education. I just finished here, my doctorate, my
Geri Gillespy:
superintendency. And I said, No, you know you you've always been
Geri Gillespy:
that person to kind of jump in fields, right? And things happen
Geri Gillespy:
for a reason. So that's what started my journey at Microsoft.
Geri Gillespy:
And to answer your question, yes, there is amazing people
Geri Gillespy:
within this organization. And now, as I mentioned earlier, we
Geri Gillespy:
have this Microsoft elevate. We are now reorged under the
Geri Gillespy:
direction of Brad Smith, who has been looking over our tech for
Geri Gillespy:
social impact, our nonprofit works all of that piece within
Geri Gillespy:
the company. And what has happened now is we've now have
Geri Gillespy:
this organization that is completely aligned with these
Geri Gillespy:
mission driven organizations, and so I can now help connect
Geri Gillespy:
leaders to nonprofits that are out there, that are supporting
Geri Gillespy:
others within the community and being a building leader,
Geri Gillespy:
especially During recession time, the amount of times that I
Geri Gillespy:
spent with my community leaders to help create that atmosphere.
Geri Gillespy:
And even working with the district, we brought community
Geri Gillespy:
schools where we could bring medical services, we could bring
Geri Gillespy:
counseling services, we could bring Workforce Services. And
Geri Gillespy:
I've seen firsthand how we need to expand that and reach out to
Geri Gillespy:
the community. And now being able to do that within
Geri Gillespy:
Microsoft, elevate and be in that space is just been amazing,
Geri Gillespy:
and to see what's happening and impact out there, especially now
Geri Gillespy:
Awesome.
Ashley Cross:
Well, again, we're so thrilled to have you on with
Ashley Cross:
all of your different accolades. Can you tell us some of your
Ashley Cross:
work and your recognition? I see that you've been a community
Ashley Cross:
leader for ISTE and ASCD, you were recognized very early on, I
Ashley Cross:
might add, as a woman in AI. And I think that that's really
Ashley Cross:
fascinating, that you've been ahead of the curve for that at
Ashley Cross:
the national level for a long time now.
Geri Gillespy:
So another one of my endeavors, I actually was on.
Geri Gillespy:
A plane to ISTE, and it was going to Philadelphia years ago,
Geri Gillespy:
and I sat next to someone who was a developer. He was a
Geri Gillespy:
developer early on with open AI, but he was starting a startup
Geri Gillespy:
around AI and education, and we were just talking about
Geri Gillespy:
education and learning. And he said, Well, why don't you come
Geri Gillespy:
help, consult and talk, you know, with this company, I'd
Geri Gillespy:
love to learn more from you, because I don't come from this
Geri Gillespy:
space. I know only the technology how to put this
Geri Gillespy:
together. And so that's how I got in early, early, into just
Geri Gillespy:
understanding about what AI is, but what AI is not also, and how
Geri Gillespy:
that may impact, especially when we look at education and
Geri Gillespy:
learning and the skills behind that, and then to see it evolve
Geri Gillespy:
and emerge in the ways that's impacting the business world.
Geri Gillespy:
That's been something that's part of my career, that's been
Geri Gillespy:
so important to me is, how are we developing these students and
Geri Gillespy:
these learners for the future? Like I have three children, and
Geri Gillespy:
my husband and I am so happy they're grown. My daughter is
Geri Gillespy:
the last one. She's 21 and our goal has always been to get them
Geri Gillespy:
off her paycheck. I mean, we love them, we want them happy.
Geri Gillespy:
We want them to be sufficient themselves. And every parent
Geri Gillespy:
wants that. Every parent wants their children happy, healthy
Geri Gillespy:
and part of the community. And so how are we doing that in
Geri Gillespy:
schools and taking that on? So AI, I see is that change, and
Geri Gillespy:
that shift in how those skills are going to align. So you
Geri Gillespy:
answer your question, Ashley, it was like jumping in again about
Geri Gillespy:
how can I help in that voice, in that collective and that's how I
Geri Gillespy:
ended up with that recognition in that book. So Jerry,
Hiram Cuevas:
you share a unique space with all of us here, with
Hiram Cuevas:
the exception of Ashley. Ashley has little ones. The rest of us
Hiram Cuevas:
are all in the adulting phase of their children, so we definitely
Hiram Cuevas:
get it. We'd love to get them off the paycheck, but sometimes
Hiram Cuevas:
it just keeps on creeping back. Every once in a while, oh, they
Hiram Cuevas:
do. I just found out recently that I'm going to be a
Hiram Cuevas:
grandfather, so that's all exciting. Quick question, since
Hiram Cuevas:
you mentioned your children and the work that you do, because I
Hiram Cuevas:
know Bill and I have had these conversations about AI with our
Hiram Cuevas:
spouses. Our spouses are both teachers, and sometimes they
Hiram Cuevas:
make comments about they feel like they're cheating when
Hiram Cuevas:
they're using AI. I think our adult children have expressed
Hiram Cuevas:
some concerns about when to use it, when not to use it, how to
Hiram Cuevas:
use it. Are you experiencing the same thing with your own
Hiram Cuevas:
children, especially given the work that you do?
Geri Gillespy:
Yes, I am. In fact, I have grandchildren also.
Geri Gillespy:
My son got married a few years ago, and I have a bonus
Geri Gillespy:
granddaughter, and she's nine years old. She's a fourth
Geri Gillespy:
grader, and they just had a new baby. So congratulations to you,
Geri Gillespy:
because I also have a six month old granddaughter, which is so,
Geri Gillespy:
so exciting. But yeah, we have conversations in modeling too,
Geri Gillespy:
and they know what I do in the work that we have. And, you
Geri Gillespy:
know, I've modeled how to use AI, just as I did as them
Geri Gillespy:
growing up, my kids used to call it teacher talk like they would
Geri Gillespy:
tell me, we'd be out, mom. We don't want the teacher talk
Geri Gillespy:
right now, because you know, everywhere would be out. If you
Geri Gillespy:
say, Hey, do you know why the clouds are that color and the
Geri Gillespy:
sky is blue, and you'd be like, Mom, can we just be on vacation?
Geri Gillespy:
We don't need right so, but we're doing that again at home.
Geri Gillespy:
I'm modeling when to use it, how to bring it in, and honestly
Geri Gillespy:
trying to validate their fears and their questions, because
Geri Gillespy:
we're wired to want to do things easy, like when I look at my
Geri Gillespy:
brother and my sister and myself, we were the first remote
Geri Gillespy:
controls in our house. I mean, it was, get up, go, turn the
Geri Gillespy:
channel, come back. My dad later bought this VCR that had a wire
Geri Gillespy:
to it, and you could press the button and then the remote
Geri Gillespy:
controls right. You see you've got the ones. Now, the first one
Geri Gillespy:
we had had six buttons on it. You know, I had a power, a mute,
Geri Gillespy:
up and down channel shoot. You look at remote controls. Now, I
Geri Gillespy:
don't even know how to turn on the TV sometimes with
Geri Gillespy:
everything. So we're wired that way, so we have to be cognizant
Geri Gillespy:
that we're pushing back. How are we using AI in this space? In
Geri Gillespy:
fact, I just did a webinar yesterday. We have an education
Geri Gillespy:
series that started for Elevate, and we talked about how
Geri Gillespy:
applications, like we have an application AI powered that
Geri Gillespy:
search progress, and it actually addresses media literacy, which
Geri Gillespy:
are foundational skills that need to happen. And I think we
Geri Gillespy:
again, are trying to jump so far ahead, we're not talking about
Geri Gillespy:
the essential skills that are going to be needed for critical
Geri Gillespy:
thinking and problem solving that have been in education for
Geri Gillespy:
years since I started teaching. I taught middle school math. I
Geri Gillespy:
wanted problem solving, I wanted analytical skills. I wanted
Geri Gillespy:
critical thinking. Those were skills I was working on, day in
Geri Gillespy:
and day out. They're just essential now because of what
Geri Gillespy:
you just addressed. It's a way we cannot let AI just start
Geri Gillespy:
doing thinking for us. We need to use it almost as a source of
Geri Gillespy:
information the way that we used to look at primary sources or
Geri Gillespy:
secondary sources. We need to understand that it's another
Geri Gillespy:
source of information. Information that we're going to
Geri Gillespy:
have to validate. We're going to have to check where I have to
Geri Gillespy:
ask ourselves those questions. Does this make sense? This is
Geri Gillespy:
honestly feed up what I know. And so it's the conversations
Geri Gillespy:
that we need to have in the forefront of that, and we can't
Geri Gillespy:
let them get buried. And so when I'm talking with my children,
Geri Gillespy:
it's the same thing as adults too. We'll bring them in and
Geri Gillespy:
say, and in fact, my sister is also an educator. She's a
Geri Gillespy:
special education teacher. She uses copilot in and out, and she
Geri Gillespy:
knows when she's engaged with her students to check for
Geri Gillespy:
security spaces, to look for data privacy. She understands
Geri Gillespy:
all of that, but then I caught her just a few weeks ago on a
Geri Gillespy:
personal type of device and AI, and what she was asking and
Geri Gillespy:
bringing in this conversation, I looked at her and I'm saying,
Geri Gillespy:
hey, you know, you're feeding that model like, remember what
Geri Gillespy:
you know? So it's going to be a constant reminder on ourselves,
Geri Gillespy:
and we're kind of have to keep bringing this conversation up
Geri Gillespy:
absolutely
Ashley Cross:
and I think it's so important too, to get back to
Ashley Cross:
that human piece. I went to an event recently, and I was with
Ashley Cross:
so many faculty, and they were really complaining, like I heard
Ashley Cross:
it over and over, probably in five different rooms, from five
Ashley Cross:
different people about how they were frustrated about the heads
Ashley Cross:
of school using AI to email them or other senior administrators,
Ashley Cross:
but it was one of those, it came off as such a canned, robotic
Ashley Cross:
response, and it just didn't have that human touch. So I
Ashley Cross:
think remembering to have that balance in even when we are
Ashley Cross:
using it to help us with our work, it's something that we're
Ashley Cross:
seeing in schools to model really well from the
Ashley Cross:
administrators, from the senior leaders, so the faculty all the
Ashley Cross:
way down to the students.
Bill Stites:
I want to go back to one of the things that you
Bill Stites:
said earlier. What you had said is, I think it was in the
Bill Stites:
conversation that you were having on your way to ISTE, it
Bill Stites:
came up with what AI is and not. It was probably a very different
Bill Stites:
conversation then than it is now. But I'd love for you to
Bill Stites:
unpack that piece where we are right now,
Geri Gillespy:
artificial intelligence. I mean, it's been
Geri Gillespy:
here for decades in different forms. I was even watching a
Geri Gillespy:
documentary. I travel a lot, and I was on the plane, and I always
Geri Gillespy:
wonder if people are watching what you're watching all of
Geri Gillespy:
doing. But it's my chance to kind of catch up on
Geri Gillespy:
documentaries and that too. And there was one about the deep
Geri Gillespy:
thinking, and about how they even brought up the forms of
Geri Gillespy:
artificial intelligence to play those games and in spaces and
Geri Gillespy:
not to in the work that they did in the UK. And it's more than
Geri Gillespy:
just the large language models that we saw once. You know, chat
Geri Gillespy:
GPT came out few years ago, and even in the conversations now
Geri Gillespy:
with these different models that are happening. And so when I
Geri Gillespy:
talk about what AI is not it's understanding exactly what
Geri Gillespy:
Ashley just talked about. It's not going to have the contextual
Geri Gillespy:
understanding and the reason it's not going to have those
Geri Gillespy:
human qualities that make us to be able to look at the
Geri Gillespy:
situations and what I call the gray area of us being able to
Geri Gillespy:
analyze and synthesize that information. It's going to have
Geri Gillespy:
that logical reasoning on data and patterns, but it's going to
Geri Gillespy:
be based on that data and patterns. If you have bad data
Geri Gillespy:
in if you're pulling from things that are not logical, that are
Geri Gillespy:
always going to be repeatable, you're not going to have any
Geri Gillespy:
kind of authenticity. You're not going to have anything that's
Geri Gillespy:
new out there, because, you know, another space that my own
Geri Gillespy:
daughter, My daughter, is very creative and artistic. She's a
Geri Gillespy:
marketing major out there, and she's very worried about the
Geri Gillespy:
artistic side of AI and what it's doing and replicating art
Geri Gillespy:
and music in that field. And so she was absolutely against AI in
Geri Gillespy:
the beginning. It came out like she would not use it at all
Geri Gillespy:
because of the integrity of what it was going to do to the arts.
Geri Gillespy:
And that's, again, another conversation that we had that
Geri Gillespy:
goes into what AI is not yet we see these images that are made,
Geri Gillespy:
but we need new forms of art. We need creation to happen because
Geri Gillespy:
us as humans are the creators. Otherwise, we're going to end up
Geri Gillespy:
with just clones and clones and clones of the same music, of the
Geri Gillespy:
same art pieces of that same piece. So I think those are the
Geri Gillespy:
conversations I'm talking about that we need to talk about where
Geri Gillespy:
AI is not that human base. Yes, it's going to help us with our
Geri Gillespy:
efficiency and our writing, but we still need to come back and
Geri Gillespy:
that human in the loop and be able to make those conversations
Geri Gillespy:
like Ashley, like I push back when I get something of my
Geri Gillespy:
writing and I use AI, I go back and I want it to be able to
Geri Gillespy:
polish something that I've written, I'll push back and say,
Geri Gillespy:
This is not me. I mean, I will literally say, this is not me. I
Geri Gillespy:
need more voice. I go back and edit. I make sure it's me. But
Geri Gillespy:
what it does help and saves me time is making sure that I can
Geri Gillespy:
get that information across, it's going to help me
Geri Gillespy:
communicate better. It's going to amplify the message that I
Geri Gillespy:
want. And I think that's what we need to continue to bring
Geri Gillespy:
forward, and how we're amplifying what that first
Geri Gillespy:
outcome was that we wanted, not essentially taking it over for
Geri Gillespy:
us. But how are we amplifying that work? And that's going to
Geri Gillespy:
be the piece that I hope we don't. Lose in having those
Geri Gillespy:
continued conversations.
Hiram Cuevas:
Hey, Jerry, my daughter shares a similar
Hiram Cuevas:
sentiment. She's an architecture student at Virginia Tech, and
Hiram Cuevas:
she's seeing the impact of AI in the creative process and some of
Hiram Cuevas:
the challenges associated with it. They're certainly places
Hiram Cuevas:
where it's helpful, and others where the hallucinations become
Hiram Cuevas:
so apparent. I'm also curious, what is your opinion on the
Hiram Cuevas:
thoughts of the brain rot that we're hearing about the study
Hiram Cuevas:
from MIT, for example, a lot of editorials out there, and now
Hiram Cuevas:
even neuroscientists are getting involved, showing that there is
Hiram Cuevas:
a significant atrophy of children who are engaged in not
Hiram Cuevas:
necessarily just AI, but screen time in general. But there's an
Hiram Cuevas:
association with more use because of AI.
Christina Lewellen:
Hiram, before I let you answer that
Christina Lewellen:
question, it bleeds right into my next question for you, so we
Christina Lewellen:
could probably do them together, which is you had mentioned that
Christina Lewellen:
you push back on the AI to basically say, this is not me.
Christina Lewellen:
This is not my voice. How will our new generation know what
Christina Lewellen:
their voice is right in line with what Hiram is getting
Geri Gillespy:
to exactly? We even talked about my education.
Geri Gillespy:
You know that first piece my first degree is in that human
Geri Gillespy:
development and focus like Child Development students learning in
Geri Gillespy:
that too in education. So it's always been the center of my
Geri Gillespy:
work, and where I come from, and I look at technology as a
Geri Gillespy:
transfer skill, and we have to remember that we've got to look
Geri Gillespy:
at how we're using this device and how it's being added as a
Geri Gillespy:
strategy, as a tool. It cannot replicate or be that educator,
Geri Gillespy:
cannot be that human or that piece. And I think the issues
Geri Gillespy:
that we're seeing too, is how technology is being integrated,
Geri Gillespy:
because it can be fast and easy, and, you know, it's easy for us
Geri Gillespy:
to just push out an assignment, but are we really explaining?
Geri Gillespy:
Are we connecting? Are we getting where we need to be,
Geri Gillespy:
especially with younger students, and making sure that
Geri Gillespy:
we're making those connections? When I'm talking with educators,
Geri Gillespy:
I talk about, we need to connect the dots about what we're doing
Geri Gillespy:
already in classrooms that are going to help support and build
Geri Gillespy:
those and develop those skills we need. Artificial Intelligence
Geri Gillespy:
is about conversation. It's about discussion. So we do that
Geri Gillespy:
in very, very young grade levels, like we do that in pre
Geri Gillespy:
primary and preschool. In primary grades, you know, we are
Geri Gillespy:
talking about questions. We're talking about conversation.
Geri Gillespy:
Students learn. Children learn through language. We're trying
Geri Gillespy:
to develop those language skills. We're trying to develop
Geri Gillespy:
all of those different types of conversational skills that lead
Geri Gillespy:
into those deeper level thinking skills. We need to then pull
Geri Gillespy:
those out in the teachers and tell them, hey, this is also
Geri Gillespy:
supporting what students need to know later. And I think that's
Geri Gillespy:
even more essential, that we infer too much. We infer that we
Geri Gillespy:
think that's just happening and that transfer is just happening.
Geri Gillespy:
We need to point that out and say, These are essential in
Geri Gillespy:
these skills. We need to continue this, and we need to
Geri Gillespy:
look at this and as educators and leaders as a whole, I
Geri Gillespy:
advocate when I'm speaking with groups, especially if I'm doing
Geri Gillespy:
keynotes, or if I've got a large group of educational leaders in
Geri Gillespy:
front of me, I almost pretty much beg them to come to the
Geri Gillespy:
conversation, the discussion, because we need to have these
Geri Gillespy:
voices of their experience, their frame of reference, and
Geri Gillespy:
what we seen, what's happened in our school and across
Geri Gillespy:
institutions, to have and bring these questions in, because
Geri Gillespy:
children need time to discover who they are, what they know,
Geri Gillespy:
what they don't know, before we start bringing in these types of
Geri Gillespy:
models in AI we talk about, especially at Microsoft, we have
Geri Gillespy:
like these learning accelerators we talk about, AI powered that
Geri Gillespy:
then builds into where we want with workforce skills and how
Geri Gillespy:
that develops. What that means is they're managed, and they're
Geri Gillespy:
completely supported by that adult human and then it helps
Geri Gillespy:
amplify what it is that you're trying to build on, or the
Geri Gillespy:
skills and that with students, it doesn't take away the pieces
Geri Gillespy:
that we're talking about as far as students being able to have
Geri Gillespy:
that complexity, to be able to struggle a little bit, because
Geri Gillespy:
that's what learning is. And if we take that struggle away, to
Geri Gillespy:
go back to that question about brain rot in that space, if
Geri Gillespy:
we're always at that low level of questioning, that low level
Geri Gillespy:
of taking in information, and if we're always consuming
Geri Gillespy:
information and never producing anything. We're going to see
Geri Gillespy:
that. We're going to see that happen. And I'll even push back,
Geri Gillespy:
because I talk about this too, also when I talk with educators
Geri Gillespy:
in that in key notes, this all happened when we've got the
Geri Gillespy:
smartphones that we love. I mean, we got used to having all
Geri Gillespy:
this information and technology at our fingertips and in our
Geri Gillespy:
devices, we want to be able to access every type of file
Geri Gillespy:
information that we have in one place, and I'm guilty of that. I
Geri Gillespy:
mean, I wouldn't be lost without my phone, which has changed over
Geri Gillespy:
the decades. However, as we look at that, it also rewired our
Geri Gillespy:
brain to be more of a consumer versus a producer. I. Grew up in
Geri Gillespy:
Silicon Valley, like right outside San Jose. So I remember
Geri Gillespy:
when technology was about production, like I grew up with
Geri Gillespy:
all those, you know, back then was we called, like the IBM kids
Geri Gillespy:
and that too, right? So it was about the production that was
Geri Gillespy:
happening with technology. It was, how are we using these to
Geri Gillespy:
produce things? And somewhere along the way, we have turned
Geri Gillespy:
into complete consumers, and now with AI, it's essential that we
Geri Gillespy:
avoid the brain rot. We avoid not having that voice in our
Geri Gillespy:
students. We have to figure out how to make them producers again
Geri Gillespy:
of information before we put them into some of these models
Geri Gillespy:
too soon.
Ashley Cross:
So when we're talking about these lower levels
Ashley Cross:
and easy ways to use AI, we've seen a shift with particularly
Ashley Cross:
the adults, again, not necessarily talking about
Ashley Cross:
student populations right now, but with the shifts of using AI
Ashley Cross:
and a little bit more of sophisticated ways this year,
Ashley Cross:
it's been a big year for agents to come on the scene and for our
Ashley Cross:
listeners, if you're not as familiar with those, they're
Ashley Cross:
really great way to get started with your faculty. You give them
Ashley Cross:
a set of instructions, you can give them a set of sources, and
Ashley Cross:
then it will remember those over time. So we talk about it at
Ashley Cross:
ATLIS, almost like a template. But Dr Gillespie, I'm curious,
Ashley Cross:
have you seen any interesting cases, or even with yourself, or
Ashley Cross:
from schools of using AI agents?
Geri Gillespy:
Yes, yes. Agents are, to me, the way that is
Geri Gillespy:
going to honestly resonate, mostly in an education, because
Geri Gillespy:
I always talk about being intentional and purposeful,
Geri Gillespy:
especially when we look at what we know works. You know, we want
Geri Gillespy:
to be purposeful with our learning outcomes. We want to be
Geri Gillespy:
clear and concise of language, what it is that we want our
Geri Gillespy:
learners to be able to do, and that's all levels, right? It
Geri Gillespy:
doesn't matter where you are, as far as if you're at a university
Geri Gillespy:
or a collegiate level, any level of instruction, you want that
Geri Gillespy:
clear focus of what you want your learners to be able to do
Geri Gillespy:
at the end of the day with the information that they're
Geri Gillespy:
learning and how we want them to apply that in real life. Agents
Geri Gillespy:
is a way to make that intentional task and focus on
Geri Gillespy:
what the work that you want to be done. I've seen it used, for
Geri Gillespy:
example, in a way where there were multiple agents built in a
Geri Gillespy:
grant writing process, what used to take me days and hours to be
Geri Gillespy:
able to research and find grants for a need that we were trying
Geri Gillespy:
to fulfill, to be able to see if we match or aligned with the
Geri Gillespy:
requirements, and then to go through and then fill out the
Geri Gillespy:
applications gather information. I've seen now happen, you know,
Geri Gillespy:
in processes of 30 minutes to an hour where you've got agent to
Geri Gillespy:
be able to go find those resources that does that task,
Geri Gillespy:
and then an agent to be able to analyze based on your data if
Geri Gillespy:
you fit or meet those requirements. And then an agent
Geri Gillespy:
that's specific to grant writing to be able to produce, and then
Geri Gillespy:
you're able to then go forward a particular example that I'm
Geri Gillespy:
thinking of, there were 10 grants that ended up finding as
Geri Gillespy:
a resource for someone who was looking for a digital printer
Geri Gillespy:
for some of their programs that they were replacing, and
Geri Gillespy:
honestly, they had 10 different grants by the time they were
Geri Gillespy:
done, and then they ended up with two that they went through
Geri Gillespy:
and applied just because of the process that went through with
Geri Gillespy:
these agents. Now that's a meaningful way where we seen
Geri Gillespy:
that with a particular way of use that save time, it's going
Geri Gillespy:
to help them with their resources at the end of the day,
Geri Gillespy:
and it's an intentional place. I've also seen and been working
Geri Gillespy:
with districts that are looking at a school improvement process
Geri Gillespy:
when we're looking at accreditation, all of these
Geri Gillespy:
processes take time in resources. When you look at
Geri Gillespy:
schools that are identified as low performing, if we can be
Geri Gillespy:
more proactive and be in that front line that saves time. It
Geri Gillespy:
saves resources. It's things that education institutions have
Geri Gillespy:
on their plates today that they honestly need help with in the
Geri Gillespy:
changes that they're struggling with. These are meaningful ways
Geri Gillespy:
that AI is helping and especially from the agent use
Geri Gillespy:
cases in that space, we've seen agents being able to use in
Geri Gillespy:
various ways with learners, especially within our higher ed
Geri Gillespy:
institutions, and being able to be specific and support those
Geri Gillespy:
types of concepts that need more of that background information
Geri Gillespy:
and knowledge. So I think it's also a place where you can be
Geri Gillespy:
more direct and with agents to say, hey, put more of that
Geri Gillespy:
cognitive love. Put more of that thinking on the learner. Don't
Geri Gillespy:
just give them the answer. I think it's a way for us to try
Geri Gillespy:
and bring in some of those precautions that we've just been
Geri Gillespy:
talking about in this conversation. So I cannot stress
Geri Gillespy:
enough that this is the next level of that building block of
Geri Gillespy:
resources, like around artificial intelligence that you
Geri Gillespy:
want to be able to learn more about. But it's a progression.
Geri Gillespy:
If you don't know what we're talking about right now, and
Geri Gillespy:
you're saying, Oh, this sounds way far beyond me. Remember,
Geri Gillespy:
this is a progression. So it's always about that awareness, and
Geri Gillespy:
what is it that I need to know now and then? How can I move
Geri Gillespy:
through to get to this stage, to be able to use it in this
Geri Gillespy:
capacity?
Hiram Cuevas:
So I have an example that we have yet to
Hiram Cuevas:
deploy. Our librarians are really diving into this right
Hiram Cuevas:
now. But we we found our community struggling with issues
Hiram Cuevas:
of you know, the concept of copyright, fair use, trademarks
Hiram Cuevas:
and how to ensure that we are providing the correct
Hiram Cuevas:
attribution, whether it is music performances in the arts, walk
Hiram Cuevas:
up music for athletics, and we actually created an agent where
Hiram Cuevas:
the teacher, the coach or the administrator, can actually type
Hiram Cuevas:
in what the scenario is, and the agent will come back with a red,
Hiram Cuevas:
yellow, green, about the challenges with the particular
Hiram Cuevas:
event or use case. Then it will provide you the legalese that
Hiram Cuevas:
will tell you what you need to be concerned with, and it gives
Hiram Cuevas:
you advice on who to contact within the community, whether
Hiram Cuevas:
it's an academic technologist, it's a librarian or
Hiram Cuevas:
communications office, so that they can actually make sure that
Hiram Cuevas:
they are within compliance with those three areas. And right
Hiram Cuevas:
now, our librarians are stress testing that to see if it does
Hiram Cuevas:
what it needs to do, and we were really surprised when we finally
Hiram Cuevas:
got it built of its capacities right now, really helpful tool,
Hiram Cuevas:
at least in its beta form.
Geri Gillespy:
I just want to say like, that's an amazing use
Geri Gillespy:
case, and that's kind of that point too. Of coming back where
Geri Gillespy:
I've seen what you're bringing to this space is that
Geri Gillespy:
institutional knowledge that we can't replace, especially in
Geri Gillespy:
education, and so being able to use that in when you're pressed
Geri Gillespy:
for resources and where we are, especially, you know, across I
Geri Gillespy:
cannot think of any of the educational leaders or
Geri Gillespy:
institutions or districts or spaces that I'm working with now
Geri Gillespy:
that are not pressed for budget constraints and not and looking
Geri Gillespy:
at how they're using their resources to the best of their
Geri Gillespy:
ability, and that's a perfect example of that, and how they're
Geri Gillespy:
preserving that institutional knowledge and supporting
Geri Gillespy:
themselves.
Ashley Cross:
I'd like to jump in with one more just quick
Ashley Cross:
example, and this will be added to the show notes for our
Ashley Cross:
listeners, but a really cool agent. It's a cyber table top
Ashley Cross:
simulation. So a lot of times people struggle with, how are we
Ashley Cross:
going to walk through the simulation and the injections
Ashley Cross:
and the prompts? And you can actually bring this to your
Ashley Cross:
senior leadership team, maybe gather them in a conference
Ashley Cross:
room, throw it up on a screen and hit go, and it will walk you
Ashley Cross:
through the entire process. And it's a game, and so it's a
Ashley Cross:
gamified way to have that really high level discussion based
Ashley Cross:
great context for your school leaders. So that's another
Ashley Cross:
example that I'm going to drop in the show notes.
Geri Gillespy:
Yeah, I appreciate those types too,
Geri Gillespy:
because when I leave, every time I come, and especially if I'm
Geri Gillespy:
working for the workshop or anything, when I've got
Geri Gillespy:
educators or any practitioners in front of me, I always want
Geri Gillespy:
them to be able to lean with something that they could use
Geri Gillespy:
tomorrow or try time is the most valuable resource we have. If I
Geri Gillespy:
ask any educator around the globe, I'll say the one resource
Geri Gillespy:
you need more of, they'll say time. So I'm, I try to be very
Geri Gillespy:
honorable and validate that, and make sure that we're, we're
Geri Gillespy:
using that to the best that we can, that they can leave with
Geri Gillespy:
something like that. And so I always go away with something
Geri Gillespy:
that we have called prompt coach. And it does exactly,
Geri Gillespy:
actually what you're talking about. It teaches you how to
Geri Gillespy:
prompt. It gets you the prompt that you need. But it does two
Geri Gillespy:
things at once. It allows you to learn more from it, and then it
Geri Gillespy:
also gets you engaged in being able to get something useful out
Geri Gillespy:
of it. And when you talk about your use case, that's what it
Geri Gillespy:
remind me to of how we're using agents to be able to do both,
Geri Gillespy:
build more of our understanding of what AI is, but then also be
Geri Gillespy:
able to get that end result that we're looking for.
Bill Stites:
One of the questions I actually had kind of
Bill Stites:
pivoting off of the AI piece a little bit here, I'm going to go
Bill Stites:
back again to something that you talked about earlier, talking to
Bill Stites:
people about helping them with shifts in practice and change
Bill Stites:
management. I'm curious as to how you are talking with schools
Bill Stites:
now about that, and it could be about AI, but I think there's so
Bill Stites:
many other things, and it's really a topic I feel very
Bill Stites:
strongly about in terms of, how do we make these shifts, whether
Bill Stites:
it is with AI or it's with something else that we're trying
Bill Stites:
to do, and how you get that across the line? Because I think
Bill Stites:
one of the things that we struggle with immensely. All
Bill Stites:
schools do is time. There's never enough of it, and we seem
Bill Stites:
to always be adding and never taking anything away. It leads
Bill Stites:
to burnout. It leads to heads popping, and I just can't do
Bill Stites:
this anymore. You're asking too much of us, and it depletes our
Bill Stites:
teaching pools. It's not easy to find people that want to come
Bill Stites:
into this field. So when you talk about this idea of change
Bill Stites:
management, of helping people shift their practice, what are
Bill Stites:
those conversations like? Who are you having those
Bill Stites:
conversations with, and what are
Geri Gillespy:
you talking about? A great question, because
Geri Gillespy:
that comes up a lot, and it's where I spent a majority of my
Geri Gillespy:
time in my career and my research, because of that exact
Geri Gillespy:
question of, how do I support my staff, my team, without having
Geri Gillespy:
to add more to their plate? Because again, even what we're
Geri Gillespy:
talking about today, it's one piece of the puzzle of what
Geri Gillespy:
happens in education, in a classroom, in education as a
Geri Gillespy:
whole, and especially when you have as a building leader, you
Geri Gillespy:
know, I had all these amazing people that worked for me, but I
Geri Gillespy:
was in my office or running around the school. They're in
Geri Gillespy:
their classrooms. There has to be an element of trust that
Geri Gillespy:
we're all going the same way, that we're on the same page. I
Geri Gillespy:
was very fortunate in my career early on, when I was in
Geri Gillespy:
California, I was early on into the work with professional
Geri Gillespy:
learning communities, and learned about how to bring
Geri Gillespy:
together that ideal of the collective, about mission and
Geri Gillespy:
vision in those conversations, and how do you come together and
Geri Gillespy:
honor that which I think is really rooted into professional
Geri Gillespy:
identity, and that's important to educators. You know, you come
Geri Gillespy:
into service industry, and you come into education because of
Geri Gillespy:
that impact that you want to make, and it becomes more of who
Geri Gillespy:
you are as much as what you do. And so we have to honor that
Geri Gillespy:
professional identity along the way, as we come through it, and
Geri Gillespy:
with that comes a sense of beliefs and values. So when
Geri Gillespy:
you're talking about transformation and the change
Geri Gillespy:
management that we are, especially in this space right
Geri Gillespy:
now, you have to look not only at the external factors, those
Geri Gillespy:
things that we're looking at, as far as access and having that
Geri Gillespy:
technical readiness and have that systems, you know, because
Geri Gillespy:
the security and the data security and the privacy right
Geri Gillespy:
now, which is a whole other ball game and aspect that happens
Geri Gillespy:
with artificial intelligence, that has to be there in that
Geri Gillespy:
space. You've got that piece, but you also have to take into
Geri Gillespy:
account the internal factors. And if you are not listing off
Geri Gillespy:
and building up the internal factors and the mindsets and
Geri Gillespy:
values and those pieces along the way, you're not going to end
Geri Gillespy:
up with the shifter or where you want to be. And part of that is
Geri Gillespy:
getting educators to rethink the way that they're doing their
Geri Gillespy:
work, because everybody's working hard, everybody's got a
Geri Gillespy:
lot that they're doing. So it's rethinking how we're taking
Geri Gillespy:
that. And so I always say, just as we do at our learners you're
Geri Gillespy:
taking in your first line is you need to be able to find those
Geri Gillespy:
leaders, find those champions, and not leaders by role, not by
Geri Gillespy:
the title. It means it's your student leaders, your community
Geri Gillespy:
leaders, your staff leaders, your anyone there that is there
Geri Gillespy:
that is helping to drive that shift. They're going to be your
Geri Gillespy:
drivers, that staff change. That needs to happen. That's where
Geri Gillespy:
you're going to take the entire capacity. That's going to be the
Geri Gillespy:
scale of what you need to bring. And you need to have checks and
Geri Gillespy:
measures along the way. And I've always done that, and we
Geri Gillespy:
developed a system when I went through all these spaces. And
Geri Gillespy:
I've worked with my craft children on this. I work with
Geri Gillespy:
very large school districts, you know, from all different sizes,
Geri Gillespy:
and I've seen the transformation happen multiple times. You know,
Geri Gillespy:
I just helped with one of our customers with one of the
Geri Gillespy:
largest co pilot rollouts, over 20,000 licenses here in the US.
Geri Gillespy:
And we followed a lot of these change management practice and
Geri Gillespy:
these surveys that we're talking in the questions that you're
Geri Gillespy:
asking along the way is you need to not only ask about their
Geri Gillespy:
efficacy, meaning, like, do I know how this works? You know
Geri Gillespy:
the function of the tool, but you need to ask core questions
Geri Gillespy:
about, do you even believe this fits here? You know, we brought
Geri Gillespy:
up Ashley, like these questions, and even in these conversations
Geri Gillespy:
earlier, like that pushback of, I'm not even sure how this feels
Geri Gillespy:
like, feels like cheating. I don't even know if a bit here,
Geri Gillespy:
because those are different conversations, and those are
Geri Gillespy:
different types of PD sessions that need to happen, versus this
Geri Gillespy:
is how you do it. And then you also need to look at, are they
Geri Gillespy:
actually changing practice, and how you need to intervene that
Geri Gillespy:
place. So I've seen surveys go out. I've seen people put out
Geri Gillespy:
different types of questions within this space, but if you're
Geri Gillespy:
not asking those three different things, you're not yourself. The
Geri Gillespy:
driver of the change, going to be able to create those
Geri Gillespy:
intervention create those supports, or those programs, to
Geri Gillespy:
actually be able to interact, or be able to intervene or or
Geri Gillespy:
address what's happening in those different changes. Because
Geri Gillespy:
if it's just that you believe that this should fit, and you
Geri Gillespy:
want to use it, but you don't know how I can get resources
Geri Gillespy:
there if you don't believe this fits. That's a deeper
Geri Gillespy:
conversation of understanding the why and meaning you where
Geri Gillespy:
you're at, and understanding that piece and then how it's
Geri Gillespy:
going to fit in that space going forward. And the last thing I'll
Geri Gillespy:
say about that is you also need to look at your system and your
Geri Gillespy:
building too. I always call it like a three legged stool. No
Geri Gillespy:
one wants to sit on a wobbly stool. You need to have
Geri Gillespy:
something that have balance of three different types of pieces
Geri Gillespy:
in that shift of practice, you need to have one where you have
Geri Gillespy:
those opportunities for direct instruction, you know, direct
Geri Gillespy:
training. It could be virtual, it could be in time and place,
Geri Gillespy:
but it has to be some kind of connection that you're saying.
Geri Gillespy:
This is what this is, and this is what. It looks like, then you
Geri Gillespy:
need to have some self guided resources where people can dive
Geri Gillespy:
deeper themselves, so that when they see what it is, they have
Geri Gillespy:
an opportunity to go in and try it for themselves and deep in
Geri Gillespy:
their own knowledge. And then the third critical piece, which
Geri Gillespy:
I see is missing a lot of times when we're talking about these
Geri Gillespy:
shifts, is you've got to have the point of need support that
Geri Gillespy:
can be a community, it can be an office hour, it can be a summer,
Geri Gillespy:
it could be one of those champions that's in the
Geri Gillespy:
building. I can say, hey, this isn't working. Why isn't this
Geri Gillespy:
working? We built a system in the district I came from where
Geri Gillespy:
we even empowered our students, and we built courses where
Geri Gillespy:
students could take as electives, and we had students
Geri Gillespy:
at every hour to help the teachers on PrEP periods, on
Geri Gillespy:
times, to be able to come to them for those kind of questions
Geri Gillespy:
and point of need. And so if you're looking at all those
Geri Gillespy:
three different areas, and you're going to be able to help
Geri Gillespy:
support your educators when they feel more supported in the shift
Geri Gillespy:
and change. Nobody likes change. That is my cheese, all these
Geri Gillespy:
books that are around there, right? So everybody struggles
Geri Gillespy:
with change, but it's how supported they feel in that mix.
Geri Gillespy:
And then the last piece that's critical. I know this was a big
Geri Gillespy:
question, but the last piece that's critical is validate and
Geri Gillespy:
recognize that this is a progression we developed scales
Geri Gillespy:
off of, kind of like deep learning. And pieces is, you
Geri Gillespy:
know, Microsoft has a version called crawl, walk, run, we
Geri Gillespy:
built all our work off of in the district I was we called it
Geri Gillespy:
walk, jump, leap because we wanted transformation to feel
Geri Gillespy:
different. We don't leap into our room like right until we
Geri Gillespy:
wanted to feel different. But what that did was our educators
Geri Gillespy:
that were struggling with this and felt overwhelmed, we'd say,
Geri Gillespy:
Look, this is our baseline, where we want all of our staff
Geri Gillespy:
or faculty, everybody in our organization, to be just at this
Geri Gillespy:
level by this time, and it kind of gave a load off. Okay? I
Geri Gillespy:
understand what my outcome is. I know where I need to be with it.
Geri Gillespy:
And then there was a progression where people who needed to go
Geri Gillespy:
further, who wanted to go deeper, could those that wanted
Geri Gillespy:
to go at a certain pace, could understand it. And then we could
Geri Gillespy:
align all of our trainings, all of our discussions around those
Geri Gillespy:
different areas, so that people felt validated and their time
Geri Gillespy:
was honored because they knew exactly what they were getting
Geri Gillespy:
and they understood the conversations they were going to
Geri Gillespy:
be in that space.
Christina Lewellen:
Thank you for that. That's a really great
Christina Lewellen:
and very comprehensive way of looking at the change management
Christina Lewellen:
piece of things, and I think that's going to be important,
Christina Lewellen:
and at least to my next question around workforce development,
Christina Lewellen:
because there's a couple of different aspects. I think it's
Christina Lewellen:
getting a lot of headlines right now, especially we all work in
Christina Lewellen:
the independent school space, and there are demands,
Christina Lewellen:
expectations from our consumers, our students, our parents, in
Christina Lewellen:
terms of what these kids are going to be able to go out into
Christina Lewellen:
the real world and do so. I think that workforce development
Christina Lewellen:
headlines are kind of landing in independent schools at I don't
Christina Lewellen:
know it's necessarily a higher rate, but it's certainly
Christina Lewellen:
pronounced. But even before we get to figuring out what it is
Christina Lewellen:
our kids are going to be doing for work and for jobs, there's
Christina Lewellen:
the moment that we're living in right now, and that anxiety from
Christina Lewellen:
the teaching profession is one that we talk about, because
Christina Lewellen:
teachers are struggling with the change management side of what
Christina Lewellen:
you're talking about. There's also some questions as to how
Christina Lewellen:
programs are preparing teachers. I have a senior in college who
Christina Lewellen:
is going to be a teacher. She's student teaching right now, and
Christina Lewellen:
she's not learning a lot about AI, well, she's learning about
Christina Lewellen:
it from me, but she's not learning about it at college,
Christina Lewellen:
which is really interesting. She's not necessarily learning
Christina Lewellen:
about it from her mentor teacher. So I think it's really
Christina Lewellen:
interesting. We have a couple different angles of workforce
Christina Lewellen:
development here in the education space, and because you
Christina Lewellen:
follow at this intersection of Microsoft, big company, and 30
Christina Lewellen:
year plus educator, I wonder if you can just kind of share with
Christina Lewellen:
us your observations about that
Geri Gillespy:
it is and it's been so important, because I
Geri Gillespy:
honestly think that's a big reason I'm sitting here. My mom
Geri Gillespy:
was a stay at home mom, my step dad passed away. I was 14, and
Geri Gillespy:
my mom had to go back in the workforce. Had accounting degree
Geri Gillespy:
and was learning something at the time that was new, called
Geri Gillespy:
Excel out of office, right? I learned along with her, because
Geri Gillespy:
I needed to have a way to put myself through school. And I was
Geri Gillespy:
supporting, you know, accountants at 19 years old,
Geri Gillespy:
because I learned along, and I believe in these workforce
Geri Gillespy:
skills, and had that experience too to come through and but
Geri Gillespy:
educators, a lot of times, do not have that outside industry
Geri Gillespy:
experience or beyond the education that they know. And
Geri Gillespy:
educators make up at some statistics from like 2024 I
Geri Gillespy:
believe UNESCO put out there worldwide, it was like 2.8% of
Geri Gillespy:
the workforce, you know, globally, of educators, but when
Geri Gillespy:
we have our students and our learners in our classrooms,
Geri Gillespy:
those are 100% of the workforce. So how are we preparing our
Geri Gillespy:
educators to help in that space, like right now, with AI in that
Geri Gillespy:
place too, and they are feeling overwhelmed and what this looks
Geri Gillespy:
like, I think that. That's where we need to look at how we have
Geri Gillespy:
programs like right now, we have an Elevate program for educators
Geri Gillespy:
that they can come in and join these conversations. And I think
Geri Gillespy:
it's the messaging that even ourselves need to get better at.
Geri Gillespy:
It's, you know, from getting to pre service teachers and
Geri Gillespy:
educators, ways for them to dive in deeper, to be able to get to
Geri Gillespy:
that. And then I think it's a partnership that has to happen
Geri Gillespy:
between what's happening in K 12 education and these institutions
Geri Gillespy:
that are preparing teachers that are coming into practice. There
Geri Gillespy:
are so many silos that happen across education from what
Geri Gillespy:
happens at a federal level, if I just you know specifically
Geri Gillespy:
around us, because that's where my frame of reference is, from
Geri Gillespy:
being in policy in those places, down to the state level to then
Geri Gillespy:
the independent school level, to all different variances
Geri Gillespy:
depending on how schools are out. But when we talk about AI,
Geri Gillespy:
we've got to recognize where those silos are, because we do
Geri Gillespy:
have this issue where we have people feeling unprepared to
Geri Gillespy:
understand what's happening, especially in AI and the data
Geri Gillespy:
security pieces that come along with this. How do I
Geri Gillespy:
functionally? How do I use this in practice? And then I'm going
Geri Gillespy:
to have to be at a space to be able to use this with learners.
Geri Gillespy:
And we talk about Skilling and that too. And it comes to the
Geri Gillespy:
point of what you're talking about with your daughter
Geri Gillespy:
specifically, too, is we need to understand that when we are
Geri Gillespy:
working with professionals like educators and anyone too,
Geri Gillespy:
because even if you're an educational leader, it's
Geri Gillespy:
different than when I come in and I teach someone how to do
Geri Gillespy:
something for their particular job, like their workforce, what
Geri Gillespy:
they are, because they just need to be able to how to understand
Geri Gillespy:
this from my level. How do I get the best out of this and build
Geri Gillespy:
capacity for myself? Where educators are is the whole point
Geri Gillespy:
and purpose of what it is that they're doing is they are trying
Geri Gillespy:
to share and facilitate their knowledge and just support and
Geri Gillespy:
guide learners, which is another level of bringing these skills
Geri Gillespy:
on. So there's a certain place of understanding that needs to
Geri Gillespy:
happen for them to feel secure, to be able to do that. And now
Geri Gillespy:
I'm not saying you need to have all the answers. I know we've
Geri Gillespy:
said that we can learn from our students, we can engage, but in
Geri Gillespy:
honesty, when you come in practice, there is a feeling of
Geri Gillespy:
some sense of understanding or a level of foundational
Geri Gillespy:
information that I understand as an educator to help guide or
Geri Gillespy:
facilitate in this conversation. And if, if we're not giving that
Geri Gillespy:
to pre service teachers, to educators that are in there and
Geri Gillespy:
then expected them to come on and do this, that's where we're
Geri Gillespy:
seeing this fear and these questions and this coming on,
Geri Gillespy:
because they need to have that extra further support as part of
Geri Gillespy:
that change management process. And too, I
Christina Lewellen:
think that makes a lot of sense, and I
Christina Lewellen:
appreciate you addressing that. We just have a few minutes left.
Christina Lewellen:
But I also thought I would just leave an open ended question for
Christina Lewellen:
you, in terms of, if there was kind of like, the one thing that
Christina Lewellen:
you would want to leave our audience, primarily being tech
Christina Lewellen:
leaders and tech directors at schools, is there any one bit of
Christina Lewellen:
advice or any kind of encouraging words you'd like to
Christina Lewellen:
leave them with as we wrap up the pod.
Geri Gillespy:
I think looking at this, I'm a systems thinker,
Geri Gillespy:
and honestly, where that came from was at a necessity, because
Geri Gillespy:
I was in a space where I didn't have the resources. We had
Geri Gillespy:
budget constraints as we all face in education. It doesn't
Geri Gillespy:
matter where you are in the roles that you are. You have
Geri Gillespy:
that pressure where you need your learners to come, where you
Geri Gillespy:
need your staff to go. There's that community expectation of
Geri Gillespy:
what we want, because we want the best for that community,
Geri Gillespy:
especially the learners that we have in front of us. Is to step
Geri Gillespy:
back and look at how you can integrate this as a system. Look
Geri Gillespy:
at what the pieces of what you already have. Are you building
Geri Gillespy:
on that piece and coming together as what we do best? As
Geri Gillespy:
educators, come to the discussion the collective, reach
Geri Gillespy:
out, ask questions, how do we come forward and share what it
Geri Gillespy:
is that we know about this space in our experiences, our frame of
Geri Gillespy:
reference? Because if we don't help, come and join the
Geri Gillespy:
narrative. It's going to be written for us. We've got to
Geri Gillespy:
come in and ask these questions. I don't have all the answers. I
Geri Gillespy:
love to learn from other people, but I am just taking what I've
Geri Gillespy:
gained across. But I'm open for discussion. I would love to
Geri Gillespy:
continue on as we go through but I need more of these voices in
Geri Gillespy:
this collective discussion to add
Christina Lewellen:
to this. That is fantastic. Dr Jerry
Christina Lewellen:
Gillespie, thank you so much for joining us today. We cannot
Christina Lewellen:
thank you enough for your time and your perspective. We
Christina Lewellen:
appreciate you.
Geri Gillespy:
Thank you. This was fun. I'm gonna go try again
Geri Gillespy:
in the fungo, right? Can't go wrong.
Christina Lewellen:
I'm telling you, it's worth it. Seek it out
Christina Lewellen:
in whatever city you're living in listeners, it is delightful.
Peter Frank:
This has been talking technology with ATLIS,
Peter Frank:
produced by the Association of technology leaders in
Peter Frank:
independent schools. For more information about Atlas and
Peter Frank:
Atlas membership, please visit the atlas.org if you enjoyed
Peter Frank:
this discussion, please subscribe. Leave a review. And
Peter Frank:
share this podcast with your colleagues in the independent
Peter Frank:
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