AI, Universal Design for Learning (UDL), and Student-Led Learning with Dr. Catlin Tucker
Presented by:
Best-selling author Dr. Catlin Tucker joins the podcast to discuss her journey from a teacher in crisis to a leading voice in educational technology. She unpacks the core principles of Universal Design for Learning (UDL) and makes a powerful case for student-led learning, exploring how AI can serve as an indispensable partner for designing equitable and engaging experiences that combat teacher burnout.
Transcript
Peter Frank:
Nick, welcome to Talking technology with Atlas,
Peter Frank:
the show that plugs you into the important topics and trends for
Peter Frank:
technology leaders all through a unique Independent School lens.
Peter Frank:
We'll hear stories from technology directors and other
Peter Frank:
special guests from the Independent School community,
Peter Frank:
and provide you with focused learning and deep dive topics.
Peter Frank:
And now please welcome your host. Kristina llewellen,
Christina Lewellen:
hello everyone, and welcome back to
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talking technology with Atlas. I'm Kristina llewellen, the
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president and CEO of the Association of technology
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leaders in independent schools,
Bill Stites:
and I'm Bill Stites, the Director of
Bill Stites:
Technology at Montclair Kimberly Academy in Montclair, New
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Jersey,
Hiram Cuevas:
and I'm Hiram Cuevas, the Director of
Hiram Cuevas:
Information Systems and Academic Technology at St Christopher
Hiram Cuevas:
school in Richmond, Virginia.
Christina Lewellen:
Hello, gentlemen. We have had quite a
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week together, and now we're together virtually once again.
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But we spent the weekend together at the Atlas board
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retreat in Columbus, Ohio, and then we all had challenges
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getting home. So yay for summer storms. It's very lovely to see
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you guys safe and sound back in your home recording areas.
Bill Stites:
I know Hiram is busy at a little bit more of a
Bill Stites:
travel story than I did, but I'm definitely still in recovery
Bill Stites:
mode, a little tired, a little too much time in a car. But
Bill Stites:
other than that, I am feeling much better.
Hiram Cuevas:
I hear you, Bill, and the fact that I arrived in
Hiram Cuevas:
Charlotte and had to go to South Carolina in order to get a
Hiram Cuevas:
rental car to go back up to Richmond, was the tour de force,
Bill Stites:
indeed.
Christina Lewellen:
Yeah, so my atlases staff had a hard time
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getting home Kelsea ended up driving back down from DC. So I
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think that, like we just all scattered, got to where we could
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get to, and then figured it out, like any good technology leader,
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right? Exactly, we got most of the way there, and then we were
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winging it on the back end.
Bill Stites:
What I loved is it put me in a car with somebody
Bill Stites:
who was there as part of the ALI program. So at least I had a
Bill Stites:
traveling partner on my eight and a half hour, nine hour
Bill Stites:
journey back to Jersey from Columbus. So it was great.
Christina Lewellen:
Well, we're gonna jump right into our
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conversation today, because I feel like we're gonna need the
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time. We have a huge get for our podcast today, we are really
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excited to bring someone to us with a lot of notoriety. Today,
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we are welcoming Dr Catlin Tucker. She is a best selling
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author, an international trainer and a keynote speaker. After
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teaching for 16 years, Katlyn earned her doctorate in learning
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technologies from Pepperdine University, and she currently
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works as a blended learning coach and education consultant,
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and she teaches at the Masters of Arts teaching program at
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Pepperdine University. Catlin, welcome to our podcast. We are
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so grateful to
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Dr Catlin Tucker: have you here. Thank you guys for having me.
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I'm thrilled to join you
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now. I would love to start with the fact that
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you are a multiple time author of many best selling books, and
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these books range in topic on everything from blended learning
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to designing with AI all sorts of UDL and balanced and blended
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learning, texts and thoughts and thought leadership. Tell me a
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little bit about your background, because for you to
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be so prolific in this space, really carving out all of this
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cutting edge approach to teaching, you had to have lived
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some years in the classroom. So tell me a little bit about your
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journey.
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Dr Catlin Tucker: I love to tell people that my origin story as a
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writer and author really came from this moment of career
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crisis. So I entered the classroom as like a bright eyed
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22 year old. I had all these really big fantasies about this
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amazing classroom I was going to create that involved kids just
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bounding through the door super excited to learn. I was an
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English teacher at the high school level, so I imagined us
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sitting in circles and talking about literature and life and
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like it was going to be amazing. And then I got into the
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classroom, and the reality was so different from these
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elaborate fantasies I had concocted in my head. Students
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did not bound through the door. There's like lots of trudging
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happening. Nobody wanted to engage in conversation. I did
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not feel like most of them wanted to be there. And I felt
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like I was failing, right? I was failing to create this classroom
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I had dreamed about. I was failing to engage my kids. And I
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am like so type A that this was very hard for me to accept. And
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I remember about year five, I just got to this moment of
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thinking, I've made an enormous mistake, and I might need to
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just leave this profession. But I was like, You're not a
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quitter. Like, give it one more year, but in that year, you need
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to start treating this space like a laboratory, just
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experimenting, trying something different, seeing what sticks,
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what excites students, and a lot of that the early
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experimentations it's like around 2007 we're starting to
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leverage the small devices walking through the door in some
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of my students pockets, and I'm talking like one out of six kids
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might have a device. And really thinking about, how do I
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leverage this limited access to start to shift students into a
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space of questioning and. Discovery and exploration and
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using devices to kind of foster that collaboration, and it was a
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huge game changer for me. And I wrote my very first book on
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blended learning in 2010 and it was me just sharing what I'd
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been through and how this kind of unlearning of everything I
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thought I knew about what it meant to be a teacher and what
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it looked like to be a student. How that unlearning process and
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that experimentation and that strategic use of the tech I had
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access to really transformed my experience, what I saw in my
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classroom in terms of my students engagement. So that's
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really where it started. And I think I'm definitely a person
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who as I learn, as I create, as I work with other educators,
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writing is just my vehicle to like reinforce what I'm learning
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and fine tune it. And I think one of the things I'm good at is
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taking what sometimes feels complicated and overwhelming or
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very theoretical and pinning it down into really specific
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resources and strategies and making it concrete for teachers.
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So I just keep writing books.
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I love that. And as you've been expanding
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your reach and sharing your thoughts, you've also found your
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communities. It sounds like you're really active in several
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organizations. Where did you go in those early years as you were
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trying to figure things out, and eventually you started putting
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some words on paper. What do you consider your professional
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communities?
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Dr Catlin Tucker: You know, it's interesting. I was on a campus
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where I was very much going it alone. Nobody else was doing
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what I was doing. We didn't have a lot of technology on the
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campus. In fact, I feel like the first couple years I had like, a
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secret Wi Fi that I gave, like a weird name so my kids could get
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on it, because we just didn't even have that available for
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students on campus. And so there were two spaces where I really
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started to build my networking and connections. And one was the
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computer using educator like the Q network in California. And
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then the other was Twitter. Honestly, I had started writing
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a blog just kind of sharing my own blunderings in the
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classroom, things I was doing, what worked, what didn't work,
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what pain points I was trying to solve, what strategies I found
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really useful, and sharing resources. And I realized that
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if I was going to get anybody reading what I was writing, I
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needed to find a way to kind of like, share it online, and
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Twitter became my space. And it was there that beyond Q I really
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started to connect with other people who were excited and
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experimenting, and that, for me, was transformative, because I
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wasn't really getting that in PD or interactions on my campus.
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I mentioned that Atlas is a blended
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community of former educators and also some tech folks who
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came into education. So for our listeners who might not be
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familiar with the concept or term UDL, can you explain what
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that means to
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Dr Catlin Tucker: you? Yeah, absolutely. So universal design
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for learning actually has its beginnings in architecture, this
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idea that we wanted to or architects are designing
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buildings that anyone can access. So then, if you take
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that universal design concept and you apply it to learning,
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the idea is that we're really trying to design, or architect
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learning experiences that are accessible, inclusive and
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equitable. And I kind of have to pause here, because we're in
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this moment where there are a lot of schools and districts and
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states that are shying away from the word equity, and I want to
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be really clear about what that means, which is it is this
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acknowledgement that individual learners need individual inputs
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to reach a particular output. So if we want students to reach a
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standard aligned learning objective or goal, we're
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acknowledging that students are going to need different amounts
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of our teacher time and energy input, different amounts of
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scaffolding and support or feedback in order to reach that
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particular learning objective. And so universal design for
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learning is really about proactively identifying and
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attempting to remove barriers in the learning process, like what
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might make it challenging for a student to acquire information
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in a particular mode, what might make it challenging for them to
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process new information or apply what they're learning or
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navigate a multi step learning experience? And how do we as
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educators try to proactively remove those so the learning is
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accessible and inclusive and equitable?
Bill Stites:
How does technology fit into that in terms of
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lowering those barriers or providing those opportunities
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for students to reach those particular goals?
Bill Stites:
Dr Catlin Tucker: I think technology can be so incredibly
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helpful in this process, because one when we think about how
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important it is in a classroom for students to be acquiring new
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information, so often information transfer happens
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with a teacher at the front of the room providing a lecture,
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facilitating a short mini lesson. There. Are a lot of
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barriers that actually can make it very hard for a student to
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acquire information, if that is the only way it is presented,
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right? Whether it's distractions in a classroom, whether it's
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because they have a hard time focusing or attention deficit,
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or they don't have the background knowledge, or the
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pace is too fast, like when you start to think about everything
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that might get in the way in those moments, it's like, oh
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yeah, why is this the only way we transfer information in a
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classroom? And so a lot of my work when I talk with educators
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is, you know, for those explanations, we're going to say
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the same way for everyone. Can we also create a video? A video
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has accessibility features kids can control often, the playback
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speed. Add closed captioning. They can watch it 10 times if
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they need to. And now we even have AI tools like notebook LM,
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where I'm like, Ooh, this is a really great article. Reading
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might create a barrier to students accessing information
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in this article. Now I can throw the article into notebook LM,
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it'll generate a podcast, and now I can say to students, hey,
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which would you rather engage with to learn this information?
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Would you rather read? Would you rather listen? And giving them
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those really meaningful construct specific choices is
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part of the equation. When we talk about removing barriers, I
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actually think the easiest way to remove barriers is to give
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students meaningful choice whenever possible, so they can
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decide, is this option or pathway in a work better for me,
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or this option and pathway? And when we ask students to
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demonstrate their learning, you know, multiple means of action
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and expression, which is part of the UDL guidelines, is really
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about acknowledging that not all students are going to
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demonstrate or share their learning effectively in the same
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way. So I might prefer to put pen to paper and write out an
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explanation, and another student might feel more confident going
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into Canva and creating an infographic to explain or to
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highlight what they've learned. So technology can serve all of
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these different purposes when it comes to that meaningful choice
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conversation.
Bill Stites:
The example that you gave of notebook LM is a
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conversation I actually had with our director of Ed Tech
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yesterday about that very use of it. But when you mentioned the
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idea of including an article from a secondary source, this
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this is kind of getting deep into the notebook LM, and some
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of the issues with AI and how this works, does, including an
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article like that, as opposed to your own notes or your own
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resources that you've developed, are there copyright issues
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around using other articles that you've may have gotten from
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other places, putting them into notebook LM, and Then using them
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in the way in which you're describing
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Dr Catlin Tucker: that is a good question. I wonder, for
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educational purposes, if that would be the same kind of an
Bill Stites:
issue. That's what I was Yeah, yeah. I don't know the answer to
Bill Stites:
that. That is a really good question. One of the issues to
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back up a little bit that teachers face with notebook LM
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is, it's not approved for under 18, right? But if I'm a teacher
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and I'm like, Ooh, this is a really fabulous article, it
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might not be accessible for some of my students, or I want to
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make sure my multilingual learners can access this
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information. I'm going to put it into notebook. LM, I'm going to
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have it spit out that original podcast I always in the
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description and the notes for it, say source material and the
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citation. And I don't know how many educators probably make a
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practice of that if they're creating it and then downloading
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the audio file, putting it in Google classroom or their
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learning management system and sharing it, but I would
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definitely suggest that as a best practice. I think whenever
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we are taking source material that's not ours to create
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something we should be giving credit to that in my own work as
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a professional learning facilitator, the majority of the
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texts that I take to create notebook LM, original podcasts
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are my own. So it's not necessarily something I have to
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like, spend a lot of time thinking about, but it's a
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really, really good question.
Hiram Cuevas:
Yeah, to that end. I think what's also interesting,
Hiram Cuevas:
I at lunch today, I actually had a conversation with a science
Hiram Cuevas:
teacher who was talking about textbooks like CK 12 textbooks.
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He posed the question, you know, can I dump a textbook into AI
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and have it rewrite it for different reading levels? And
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it's different when it's your article, right, as opposed to
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another source. And I said, I think you're getting into some
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very squishy territory. I'm gonna lean on the side of
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probably no to that. But AI is making an interesting landscape
Hiram Cuevas:
for being able to provide differentiated instruction, but
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I think we need to be really mindful of things like fair use
Hiram Cuevas:
and copyright absolutely so
Christina Lewellen:
before we kind of dive deeper into AI,
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which we'll definitely get to, because I'm sure that you have a
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lot of perspective on that, I'd like to unpack this idea of
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student led learning and what that means in terms of where we
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are in this moment. So, you know, I guess it's not.
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Specifically an AI question quite yet, but really, we are
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empowering kids with a lot of tools. So what does student led
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learning look like?
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Dr Catlin Tucker: It's interesting. This is the entire
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topic of the TEDx talk I did last June. And I think sometimes
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when people hear this topic, or they're student led, they're
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like one no students can't lead. That's what the teacher is for.
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It really drums up a lot of these very traditional notions
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about teaching and learning,
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right? It's a very different like the
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teacher being the shepherd of it is a very different thing than
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the sage on the stage.
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Dr Catlin Tucker: Oh, for sure. And the sage on the stage is
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apparently very hard to let go of, right? It's something that
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we're all apparently very comfortable with in education,
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even though we just talked about all the barriers that exist when
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teachers are this age, on the stage, transferring information
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verbally, live in a classroom. So when we talk about student
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led I'm really clear. It's not to say students lead every
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single aspect of the learning experience. However, the goal, I
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think, for every educator, should be a gradual release of
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the learning and the ownership and the responsibility over to
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students. Our job is not to be the owners of the learning. Our
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job is to teach students how to learn on their own, and if we do
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not release aspects of the learning experience over to
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them, model, how do you do this? Give them opportunities to
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practice, provide feedback, then how are we ever going to expect
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those students to thrive in a world that is rapidly advancing,
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as quickly as the one that we have around us right now, right
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and AI is only going to exponentially change and
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develop, and it's going to have huge repercussions for our
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learners when they enter careers in college in however many
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years. And so for me, it's like, okay, let's take a really
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concrete example, if I'm asking teachers to really think about
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being intentional about how they deliver instruction. So I do a
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lot of training around multi tiered systems of support,
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particularly on the instructional side. And we start
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deciding like, Hey, I'm gonna look at this concept or skill
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that I need to teach today, and I'm going to ask myself, would I
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say this? Would I model this the same way for everyone? If so, I
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would advocate put it in a video, that way we can shift the
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control over the experience to students. And if what you're
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going to explain or model for students is really complex, it's
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nuanced, it's something they've struggled with in the past, or
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you've been teaching a while and you're like, Whoo fractions,
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this is always a troublemaker. Then why would we do that whole
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group teaching to this mythical middle why wouldn't tier one
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first pass instruction happen in differentiated small groups
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where first pass can be tailored for the students in front of me?
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I'm choosing problems and prompts at different levels of
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rigor and complexity I have scaffolds and supports at
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different levels for different needs. To me, that is strategic,
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but then teachers will say, but if I make a video like, what if
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kids don't watch it? What if they don't understand it? What
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if they're not really paying attention? Okay, let's build a
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student led protocol around that experience. If I want to use a
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video or a notebook LM podcast to transfer information, why not
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use reciprocal teaching, put students in a group of four and
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teach them how to work together with an inclusive comprehension
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multimedia strategy that allows them to unpack that video, that
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online article that podcast, and make sense of it with peer
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support. So for me, it's all about really figuring out, how
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do we position students to lead aspects of the learning so it's
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more engaging, it's more effective. They're actually
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interacting with their classmates. That's really what I
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mean when I talk about student led learning, and it's honoring
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the agency that they come into our classrooms with. Are we
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designing to honor that agency, or are we really focused on
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control and compliance?
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I'm sure, in a lot of ways, this is a
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challenging conversation, because when you do your
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customized PD for educators, you probably get half the room that
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are all in and shout an Amen, and then you probably have a
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good chunk of people who are like, Wait a minute. I'm tired.
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This has been a hard couple years. I'm wondering if you
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could reflect for a moment on the state of teaching. You do
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spend a lot of time with educators and teachers are
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tired. That is something that from our perspective, primarily
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as technology leaders, many of whom are former educators. You
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know, we're trying hard to help our teachers because we
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recognize it's a tough gig, and in a lot of ways, the tech teams
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can help them unlock learning experiences like what you're
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talking about, but our teachers are tired and sometimes
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resistant to hearing about things. Things that could help
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them. So do you have any advice or thoughts about what you're
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seeing, or even advice, I guess, for technology leaders who
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really are trying to help educators, and yet, sometimes
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there's a little bit of a wall up because they're just fried.
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Dr Catlin Tucker: Yeah, well, I empathize with all of the tech
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folks listening who have to design and facilitate PD on
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their campuses, because all staff PD is definitely a
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challenge. You're right. I go into rooms, it's a totally
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different experience. When it's opt in, when people have been
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like, I want to take this workshop. I want to work with
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Catlin. I'm like, awesome. This is going to be rad. I can't wait
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when it's an all staff, I know very well, I'm walking into a
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space where there will be, I think, half as generous of like,
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really excited. You know, you get your like, quarter who are
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like, I am down. You get another quarter who are like, I'm
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curious but hesitant. You got your skepticals, and then you
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got the people who just come in with their arms crossed, and
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they're like, all right, Lady, do your best. But I'm not really
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planning on engaging in this experience, and I do know that
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right now, we are in a really challenging moment. All you have
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to do is look at the research to know how challenging this moment
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is. Around teacher burnout, teacher attrition, around the
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just huge numbers of vacancies and then the number of jobs
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being filled by individuals who are under qualified, which just
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means they haven't been through a teacher or training program.
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That's one part of the puzzle. But then you look at the
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research on the student side and their experience, and 75% of
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kids at like the elementary level, they love school. They're
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super positive about it. You get to high school, 65% report being
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checked out. You got almost 75% at the high school level
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reporting negative feelings about school, particularly
Christina Lewellen:
tired, stressed, bored. So something's not working in the
Christina Lewellen:
current way that we design and facilitate learning, and I get
Christina Lewellen:
it change is always going to require two things that we don't
Christina Lewellen:
have a lot of as educators, time and energy, and I think also a
Christina Lewellen:
willingness to fail. I think we expect ourselves to be the
Christina Lewellen:
experts on everything before we try it, and so therefore, we
Christina Lewellen:
don't try as much as we could if we just saw ourselves as the
Christina Lewellen:
lead learner in a classroom and was like, I'm gonna try it.
Christina Lewellen:
We'll see how it goes. I'll ask my students for feedback, and
Christina Lewellen:
then we'll just iterate, because that's actually what learning
Christina Lewellen:
looks like. So for the teachers who are just feeling exhausted,
Christina Lewellen:
my message is I have been there. That is part of the reason I
Christina Lewellen:
wanted to exit this profession at year five, and it was only
Christina Lewellen:
until I started to gradually release ownership over the
Christina Lewellen:
learning to my learners and students that I actually felt
Christina Lewellen:
like I was able to take a breath and enjoy this profession. And
Christina Lewellen:
I'm not going to say it doesn't take a lot of intentionality at
Christina Lewellen:
the beginning of the year to set the stage for this. I tell
Christina Lewellen:
teachers all the time that I felt like I was just carrying
Christina Lewellen:
all 32 students in each of my classes on my back, climbing up
Christina Lewellen:
a hill until about the beginning of October. You know, we started
Christina Lewellen:
mid August, and it was about mid October, beginning of October,
Christina Lewellen:
where all of the sudden they started to get it and they
Christina Lewellen:
started to take over some of these systems and
Christina Lewellen:
responsibilities in a classroom. And from there on, the rest of
Christina Lewellen:
the year was magic, right? Because they're doing self
Christina Lewellen:
assessment, they're writing their families weekly or bi
Christina Lewellen:
weekly updates about their progress. They're doing all of
Christina Lewellen:
these things in a classroom that I used to do. So if teachers are
Christina Lewellen:
exhausted, it's probably because they're doing the lion's share
Christina Lewellen:
of the work, and they're not feeling like they're getting or
Christina Lewellen:
seeing the outcomes in terms of their students learning and
Christina Lewellen:
engagement that kind of brought them into this profession in the
Christina Lewellen:
first place. So the only way to change our reality is to change
Christina Lewellen:
the way we approach this work. So
Hiram Cuevas:
Catlin, you've mentioned a few of the barriers
Hiram Cuevas:
to the success to reach what I would call the ideal teacher in
Hiram Cuevas:
today's environment, especially the ones that I think you
Hiram Cuevas:
envision and are trying to create with your courses and
Hiram Cuevas:
your course work. What do you think is the secret sauce that
Hiram Cuevas:
is needed for somebody who's coming in new to the space as a
Hiram Cuevas:
teacher? I know Kristina has a budding teacher with one of her
Hiram Cuevas:
own daughters. My daughter is at year three as a young teacher,
Hiram Cuevas:
and it's fair to say that it's a difficult profession for many of
Hiram Cuevas:
them. What do you think are some nuggets that these folks can
Hiram Cuevas:
take away almost immediately? The
Hiram Cuevas:
Dr Catlin Tucker: first one is more mental, which is, if you
Hiram Cuevas:
are entering this profession, but you haven't gotten in a
Hiram Cuevas:
classroom yet, close your eyes and imagine in your head a
Hiram Cuevas:
teacher. What is that person doing? And I think that reveals
Hiram Cuevas:
a lot about the mental models that we have about teaching and
Hiram Cuevas:
learning. Because for most people, even young people, like
Hiram Cuevas:
every single student I'm working with in my beginning. Teaching
Hiram Cuevas:
methods class right now, teaching is their first career,
Hiram Cuevas:
and there are still these very traditional models guiding their
Hiram Cuevas:
thinking. So if you close your eyes and you picture yourself at
Hiram Cuevas:
the front of the room presenting a lesson, explaining something
Hiram Cuevas:
you're passionate about, if you see yourself at a teacher desk
Hiram Cuevas:
with a stack of papers and a red pen like that, to me, is a bit
Hiram Cuevas:
of a flag, because information is everywhere. Students have
Hiram Cuevas:
access to unlimited information. They have access to AI. They
Hiram Cuevas:
don't need us to be the fountain of knowledge anymore, and I
Hiram Cuevas:
would love anybody coming into this profession to really think
Hiram Cuevas:
about if information is everywhere and easily
Hiram Cuevas:
accessible, then what is our value in a classroom? What
Hiram Cuevas:
should we be spending our time doing? Because I would argue,
Hiram Cuevas:
the more technology and AI permeates every aspect of our
Hiram Cuevas:
lives. What actually is going to make teachers unique and special
Hiram Cuevas:
and irreplaceable is everything that makes us human, our ability
Hiram Cuevas:
to like watch kids interact and listen to their conversations
Hiram Cuevas:
and respond organically to their needs and empathize with them
Hiram Cuevas:
and and engage them in discourse and conversation like this is
Hiram Cuevas:
what makes us special. This is what the teachers of the future
Hiram Cuevas:
need to invest their time in. But yet, I think even new
Hiram Cuevas:
teachers are still coming into this profession with that kind
Hiram Cuevas:
of outdated vision of, hey, this is the value I'm going to bring
Hiram Cuevas:
into the class. I'm going to get kids excited by telling them all
Hiram Cuevas:
of these things. And to me, that's the first piece of the
Hiram Cuevas:
puzzle is like checking in and really understanding what is
Hiram Cuevas:
bringing you into this profession. What are you
Hiram Cuevas:
passionate about? Where you think you're going to bring your
Hiram Cuevas:
value in this technology AI era?
Christina Lewellen:
I think that that leads us really well into
Christina Lewellen:
AI. So let's talk about that for a little bit. I want to just at
Christina Lewellen:
least start by asking you to give me the lens through which
Christina Lewellen:
you are viewing AI at the moment.
Christina Lewellen:
Dr Catlin Tucker: You know, for me, I wrestled for a while with
Christina Lewellen:
how to approach AI, given my body of work, I am very
Christina Lewellen:
interested and passionate about the instructional side of
Christina Lewellen:
teaching and how we leverage technology strategically. These
Christina Lewellen:
technology enhanced models, blended learning models. And in
Christina Lewellen:
the very early days, I was online, and I was seeing all of
Christina Lewellen:
these teachers, and I'm still seeing a bit of it, not the
Christina Lewellen:
crazed excitement of the early days, where the conversations
Christina Lewellen:
are like, hey, check out this AI tool. You can throw in a
Christina Lewellen:
learning objective, you can throw in a standard or a
Christina Lewellen:
collection of standards, and it'll just spit out a lesson,
Christina Lewellen:
it'll spit out a unit. And I was like, this all makes me very
Christina Lewellen:
uncomfortable. I understand that planning lessons is time
Christina Lewellen:
consuming. It is cognitively challenging work, but I don't
Christina Lewellen:
want to just replace like crappy lessons from Teachers Pay
Christina Lewellen:
Teachers with free lessons from AI that really aren't elevating
Christina Lewellen:
the learning experience at all and don't know our kids at all.
Christina Lewellen:
Right. We are teaching in classrooms increasingly diverse
Christina Lewellen:
populations of learners with lots of different needs, skills,
Christina Lewellen:
abilities, language proficiencies, learning
Christina Lewellen:
preferences, interests, and that one size fits all, lesson,
Christina Lewellen:
which, right now, most of the education powered AI tools are
Christina Lewellen:
still kind of spitting out. It does not get me excited. What
Christina Lewellen:
gets me excited and where my focus is now and kind of has
Christina Lewellen:
been, is one on the design side, everything I have been asking
Christina Lewellen:
teachers to do or advocating for for the last 15 years, the
Christina Lewellen:
biggest barrier was one time and just the time needed to invest
Christina Lewellen:
in the design work, right? So if I'm asking them to go from whole
Christina Lewellen:
group, teacher led, teacher pace to something like the station
Christina Lewellen:
rotation model, the biggest pushback I get is, yeah, that
Christina Lewellen:
sounds good. Differentiating consistently would be nice, but
Christina Lewellen:
like that takes a long time to design one of those lessons. And
Christina Lewellen:
I'm like, Okay, now we have this super charged way in which to
Christina Lewellen:
design learning, and I want teachers to leverage AI to
Christina Lewellen:
elevate their design to now design for these diverse
Christina Lewellen:
populations, to differentiate effectively, to offer meaningful
Christina Lewellen:
choices, but leverage AI to do it in a fraction of the time.
Christina Lewellen:
That is one part of my focus. The other part of my focus is on
Christina Lewellen:
flexible, Personalized Pathways. So how are we using technology
Christina Lewellen:
and AI specifically to create learning experiences that allow
Christina Lewellen:
students to sit in that driver's seat, that allow them to access
Christina Lewellen:
explanations and pathways that work for them, that remove
Christina Lewellen:
barriers for them. And I think AI can absolutely do that in
Christina Lewellen:
really, really exciting ways.
Bill Stites:
So as a follow up to that, I mean, you're talking
Bill Stites:
about. Existing teachers and how you're getting in and talking to
Bill Stites:
them and trying to motivate them to take these different
Bill Stites:
pedagogical approaches and the way in which they're going to
Bill Stites:
look at these things. I want to take this back to the work that
Bill Stites:
you're doing in the college with the students that you're
Bill Stites:
preparing for these pieces. What are those conversations look
Bill Stites:
like there? And what are you seeing with those coming in, and
Bill Stites:
how are you preparing them for that step when they graduate?
Bill Stites:
Dr Catlin Tucker: That is quite the question. When I got my
Bill Stites:
first syllabus, I basically for the beginning. So I teach
Bill Stites:
beginning secondary methods. I teach advancing secondary
Bill Stites:
methods. And I remember getting the syllabus, and was like, This
Bill Stites:
is what the person before you did. And I was like, I was like,
Bill Stites:
I don't think I want to do any of that. I think I want to do
Bill Stites:
something totally different. That means why I work with
Bill Stites:
teacher candidates is I want to help them enter this field in
Bill Stites:
the space of I'm here to architect dynamic learning
Bill Stites:
experiences. I'm here to partner with students. I am here to
Bill Stites:
ensure that I'm facilitating learning. I'm not just directing
Bill Stites:
learning. And so it has really taken some redesign of existing
Bill Stites:
curriculum for me to feel comfortable and confident I'm
Bill Stites:
doing that, but even as a professor, I teach inside of my
Bill Stites:
own little box of expectations. But what I will say is, I
Bill Stites:
remember the first week with my current cohort where we were
Bill Stites:
sharing about their teacher placements, and one of my
Bill Stites:
students made a comment like, I mean, just technology is such a
Bill Stites:
distraction, and so we've basically gone back to
Bill Stites:
worksheets in our classroom. And I was like, Oh my gosh, we have
Bill Stites:
so much work to do here. Like you are, like, in your early
Bill Stites:
20s, this is your first profession. Like, I don't love
Bill Stites:
this at all, and it's not the technology is the problem. It is
Bill Stites:
the way that it is being used that is the problem. So for me,
Bill Stites:
it's about helping them to think really intentionally about their
Bill Stites:
design. So the entire time, we are leveraging AI for design. I
Bill Stites:
am teaching them how to engineer prompts, how to evaluate output,
Bill Stites:
how to take existing pieces of their curriculum and create
Bill Stites:
construct specific alternatives. We're talking about the
Bill Stites:
challenges around AI or the challenges around assessment in
Bill Stites:
an AI world, and making sure we're really getting an accurate
Bill Stites:
picture of what students know. And how do we combat some of
Bill Stites:
those concerns and challenges? How do we design prompts or help
Bill Stites:
students design prompts that are going to be interesting and
Bill Stites:
engaging? How do we rethink where some of the work happens,
Bill Stites:
right? Like, if we just keep sending prompts, writing prompts
Bill Stites:
that kids don't care about home into an environment that might
Bill Stites:
not be conducive for writing. We should not be surprised if they
Bill Stites:
submit something that they generated with AI, right?
Bill Stites:
There's all kinds of equity issues around that workflow. And
Bill Stites:
so how are we creating spaces in the classroom for students to do
Bill Stites:
authentic work for them to get feedback from teachers, for them
Bill Stites:
to learn how to use AI responsibly. So I sometimes wish
Bill Stites:
you know, I only have 15 weeks for each of my courses, and I
Bill Stites:
feel like I could spend 45 weeks doing this work with them in
Bill Stites:
each course. But yeah, it's threaded through everything I
Bill Stites:
do. Every class we have, there's student led strategies at play.
Bill Stites:
They're doing reciprocal teaching. They're using the
Bill Stites:
jigsaw strategy. They're doing choice board, you know, peer
Bill Stites:
feedback routines. I want them doing it as students, so that
Bill Stites:
when they go into classroom working with their future
Bill Stites:
students, they're prepared to do those things.
Hiram Cuevas:
So, Catlin, it sounds like you've got this
Hiram Cuevas:
really well run in your space in terms of higher ed, how has the
Hiram Cuevas:
Department responded or been receptive to the instructional
Hiram Cuevas:
strategies that you actually employ within your course as a
Hiram Cuevas:
pedagogical framework for the entire department? And I say
Hiram Cuevas:
that because I found it interesting when you talked
Hiram Cuevas:
about beginning instructional strategies and then advance. I
Hiram Cuevas:
remember taking instructional strategies, but it was only
Hiram Cuevas:
advanced instructional strategies. And I asked the
Hiram Cuevas:
prof, where's the beginning instructional strategy or
Hiram Cuevas:
intermediate? They didn't have an answer for it, so we were
Hiram Cuevas:
right to advance. So curious to see, is this being even adopted
Hiram Cuevas:
by higher ed? Are they looking themselves in the mirror and say
Hiram Cuevas:
this is how we're teaching our students in your courses. And
Hiram Cuevas:
these are great things. We should be doing this as well.
Hiram Cuevas:
And then does that impact the rest of the university in terms
Hiram Cuevas:
of instructional strategies?
Hiram Cuevas:
Dr Catlin Tucker: I
Hiram Cuevas:
don't think so. Unfortunately, universities are different from,
Hiram Cuevas:
say, a high school, but in the same way, I feel like there are
Hiram Cuevas:
these silos of groups of educators focused on different
Hiram Cuevas:
aspects of teaching teachers or teaching different subject
Hiram Cuevas:
areas. So I teach online. We have a live two hour class every
Hiram Cuevas:
week, and how I teach that class is totally up to me. I obviously
Hiram Cuevas:
have to hit. Certain topics and cover certain things, but like,
Hiram Cuevas:
I have total autonomy in terms of how I facilitate that in that
Hiram Cuevas:
live, synchronous experience, and I know it's different from
Hiram Cuevas:
how other professors do, and I don't think that there is right
Hiram Cuevas:
now the collaboration time built in to that sharing of
Hiram Cuevas:
strategies, or like, Hey, how did you facilitate this
Hiram Cuevas:
synchronous session? But I would bet it's probably not a mere
Hiram Cuevas:
copy of, like, what I'm doing. And in general, I think higher
Hiram Cuevas:
ed has a lot of growing to do, even just the college level,
Hiram Cuevas:
right? Like, I have so many teachers who will be like, well,
Hiram Cuevas:
but this isn't what the kind of stuff they're doing in college.
Hiram Cuevas:
In college, they sit through a lecture and then they go to when
Hiram Cuevas:
I you know, and I'm like, okay, cool, so let's just keep doing
Hiram Cuevas:
that, just because some of them might end up in college and have
Hiram Cuevas:
to go through that too. For me, it's about, how are we moving
Hiram Cuevas:
from that passive consumption, whether it's at middle school,
Hiram Cuevas:
high school, college to active engagement, how do we start to
Hiram Cuevas:
reimagine the ways in which we design and facilitate learning?
Hiram Cuevas:
And it's happening on some college campuses, for sure, but
Hiram Cuevas:
there are still really traditional, outdated modes, and
Hiram Cuevas:
I think in part that has to be due to the fact that if you're
Hiram Cuevas:
not talking about a teacher training program. You're just
Hiram Cuevas:
talking about, like the college setting, that a lot of college
Hiram Cuevas:
professors, they don't have teaching training, right?
Hiram Cuevas:
They're like researchers, and they teach this class. And so
Hiram Cuevas:
that's part of the issue as
Christina Lewellen:
well. Absolutely. And independent
Christina Lewellen:
schools, we like to think that there's some flexibility in how
Christina Lewellen:
we get to the end goal, and yeah, it is hard to shake that
Christina Lewellen:
off when it's all we've ever known. So if you were talking to
Christina Lewellen:
a teacher, that's kind of new to either blended learning or the
Christina Lewellen:
ways that you're talking about using AI, not just kicking out a
Christina Lewellen:
lesson plan. With these emerging tools, with adaptive tools
Christina Lewellen:
becoming more prevalent, what are some of the best first steps
Christina Lewellen:
that a teacher, not somebody that you're teaching out of
Christina Lewellen:
college, an established teacher who's sort of been doing it and
Christina Lewellen:
is in a groove and is busy and has extra duties as assigned,
Christina Lewellen:
where do we convince them to start with a baby step?
Christina Lewellen:
Dr Catlin Tucker: Maybe? Yeah. I mean, right now, I love what
Christina Lewellen:
school AI is doing with spaces? I think spaces are so versatile,
Christina Lewellen:
and teachers can do really cool things to very quickly design a
Christina Lewellen:
space that students can interact with, whether it is designed to
Christina Lewellen:
help them unpack and understand a complex concept by inviting
Christina Lewellen:
the student to say, Hey, can you explain it through this lens.
Christina Lewellen:
This is something I understand and enjoy, but I'm not
Christina Lewellen:
understanding this concept. Help walk me through it. Now, instead
Christina Lewellen:
of asking a teacher to, like, personalize that experience and
Christina Lewellen:
really speak to every student's interests and needs, we can lean
Christina Lewellen:
on AI to do that, and that lessens the burden on the
Christina Lewellen:
teacher. Or you can train the space to go back and forth with
Christina Lewellen:
feedback and school AI, isn't the only product that does it.
Christina Lewellen:
There's class companion. There's all these other cool products
Christina Lewellen:
that like can almost serve as the student's individual coach.
Christina Lewellen:
So if I'm a teacher trying to give feedback over here, or I
Christina Lewellen:
need to pull a small group for support or intervention, or
Christina Lewellen:
whatever the scenario might be, now I have something students
Christina Lewellen:
can engage with that is responding to their specific
Christina Lewellen:
needs, that is guiding them through it, asking questions,
Christina Lewellen:
giving them feedback. And so think about the parts of this
Christina Lewellen:
work that feel unsustainable from a teacher perspective,
Christina Lewellen:
personalizing explanations, giving feedback, like, let's
Christina Lewellen:
start to figure out how we can kind of release some of that
Christina Lewellen:
load onto AI, because it's really good at it, and it
Christina Lewellen:
doesn't mean the teacher won't ever give feedback. Doesn't mean
Christina Lewellen:
the teacher won't ever give those explanations, but students
Christina Lewellen:
are going to need more of it than we can accomplish in a
Christina Lewellen:
class. And so I think as teachers start to kind of
Christina Lewellen:
offload some of those time consuming, overwhelming tasks to
Christina Lewellen:
AI and that functionality the more they're going to feel like
Christina Lewellen:
they see the value and the benefit of like, oh, wow, that
Christina Lewellen:
was great. Like that really saved me a lot of time. Look at
Christina Lewellen:
my students responding to this, and I'm getting formative
Christina Lewellen:
feedback from their interactions with AI that I think becomes
Christina Lewellen:
this kind of positive, motivating feedback loop for a
Christina Lewellen:
teacher to continue leaning into that,
Christina Lewellen:
yeah, can we stop down on the assessment
Christina Lewellen:
piece? Because I hear a lot from teachers, and we're not even a
Christina Lewellen:
teacher specific organization, but I think that there's some
Christina Lewellen:
mixed feelings around writing comments, providing assessments
Christina Lewellen:
that are meaningful in an age of AI. So can I peel back the onion
Christina Lewellen:
a little bit on that and hear what you think about that kind
Christina Lewellen:
of aspect, or what you would say to a teacher who is trying to
Christina Lewellen:
wrestle this? Am I cheating my students by using comment
Christina Lewellen:
writers? Is it still giving the experience that an independent
Christina Lewellen:
school kid is and parent is going to expect? Yeah, obviously
Christina Lewellen:
it does lessen the load, and I think we're gonna have to kind
Christina Lewellen:
of reframe assessments, maybe in this
Christina Lewellen:
Dr Catlin Tucker: age of AI, yeah. So I take the same
Christina Lewellen:
approach to feedback and assessment with AI that I do
Christina Lewellen:
when I talk about prompt engineering to design equitable
Christina Lewellen:
lessons with an AI chat bot. Right now AI chat bots are
Christina Lewellen:
definitely the best way to do that. Right is to really
Christina Lewellen:
understand how to design the prompt. Engineer it so that
Christina Lewellen:
you're getting a really high quality outcome. However, what I
Christina Lewellen:
always say is it's teacher at the beginning, teacher at the
Christina Lewellen:
end. Teacher is engineering the prompt, given everything they
Christina Lewellen:
know about their students, their subject area, the standards, and
Christina Lewellen:
then they are evaluating that output, for bias, for accuracy,
Christina Lewellen:
for quality, for like, you know, is this going to meet the needs
Christina Lewellen:
of my kids? And so I don't have any problem with teachers having
Christina Lewellen:
AI tools give students feedback. However, I think there's that
Christina Lewellen:
instructional piece that happens before and then as students are
Christina Lewellen:
working, writing, creating, whatever they're doing, AI can
Christina Lewellen:
be giving feedback along the way, but that does not negate
Christina Lewellen:
the need for teachers to still get eyes on work in progress,
Christina Lewellen:
because it's when we create the space. And I'm talking in the
Christina Lewellen:
classroom, I do not want teachers taking feedback home,
Christina Lewellen:
I'll be really clear about that, but if we're stuck at the front
Christina Lewellen:
of the room talking the whole time, that's hard to do. But I
Christina Lewellen:
think formative feedback is critical, because it's that
Christina Lewellen:
moment where we can look not at everything, but at a specific
Christina Lewellen:
element, see how our students are doing, right we get that
Christina Lewellen:
understanding of how much are you getting this? How much
Christina Lewellen:
progress are you making? Are you really struggling here? Because
Christina Lewellen:
that is going to need a teacher instructional intervention,
Christina Lewellen:
potentially, and then giving a piece of actionable feedback
Christina Lewellen:
ourselves. So for me, I think the responsibility for something
Christina Lewellen:
as important as feedback needs to be a shared responsibility,
Christina Lewellen:
right? Teachers are giving focused, actionable, timely,
Christina Lewellen:
formative feedback, not every day, not all the time, not on
Christina Lewellen:
every aspect of work, but they're making space for it.
Christina Lewellen:
They're teaching students in this student led mode. Here's a
Christina Lewellen:
peer feedback choice board partner up, either in writing or
Christina Lewellen:
as a conversation. Choose two of these prompts to guide your
Christina Lewellen:
feedback to your partner about their work in progress, and Hey,
Christina Lewellen:
over here, here's your AI feedback support bot, who is
Christina Lewellen:
going to also be asking you questions and giving you
Christina Lewellen:
feedback, because they know the rubric, the standard lined
Christina Lewellen:
rubric I'm going to grade this thing with, and it can help
Christina Lewellen:
coach you on what you're doing well and where you need to spend
Christina Lewellen:
more time. So now it's not like, oh, as a teacher, I always hated
Christina Lewellen:
feedback. AI is going to do that for me. And I never really look
Christina Lewellen:
at kids work, and I have no idea where anybody's at it has to be
Christina Lewellen:
teacher in the beginning, teacher at the end or during the
Christina Lewellen:
process. So for me, it's just like, not an all or nothing.
Christina Lewellen:
It's just this wonderful way for a kid who's stuck where a
Christina Lewellen:
teacher might be over here doing something totally different to
Christina Lewellen:
not just sit there and be like, I can't figure this out. It's
Christina Lewellen:
like, now they have a little coach, and I know how helpful
Christina Lewellen:
that is, because I lean on AI all the time when I'm like, hey,
Christina Lewellen:
you know, I'm writing this blog, and I started with this section,
Christina Lewellen:
and I'm curious, do you think this should go next, or should
Christina Lewellen:
that go next? Or, Hey, I used this word twice in these two
Christina Lewellen:
sentences. They're back to back. Which one would you say I should
Christina Lewellen:
replace? Like, these are the questions I'm asking AI all the
Christina Lewellen:
time as a writer, and so I just think there has to be balance
Christina Lewellen:
with everything. There has to be balance, right balance, the AI
Christina Lewellen:
with the humans, whether that's you or a combination of you and
Christina Lewellen:
your students, think about feedback and assessment through
Christina Lewellen:
that lens.
Bill Stites:
How are you picking or how are you talking to
Bill Stites:
schools about picking the right tool, because, as the tech
Bill Stites:
director, we're in a position where we need to vet the tool.
Bill Stites:
We're need to understand the data privacy around the tool.
Bill Stites:
There's costs associated with the tool. There's all of the
Bill Stites:
different possible uses in which one does which which one does
Bill Stites:
the other. And then there's all we talked about earlier, all the
Bill Stites:
PD that goes into the tool. How are you picking tools? What are
Bill Stites:
the criteria you're using? How are you talking to either the
Bill Stites:
teachers that you're going in and doing PD with, or the ones
Bill Stites:
that you've got in the classroom about the tools that are at our
Bill Stites:
disposal?
Bill Stites:
Dr Catlin Tucker: That is a great question, Bill, and a lot
Bill Stites:
of that I don't have to worry about, because when I go into a
Bill Stites:
school district, somebody like you has already had to make
Bill Stites:
those decisions. So basically, I'm given the guidelines of
Bill Stites:
like, hey, here are the AI tools we vetted, we've approved, or we
Bill Stites:
pay for whatever. The orchestra of figuring all of those
Bill Stites:
decisions out is, if I have my druthers, it's really because I
Bill Stites:
don't. I'm not confined to the privacy because every school,
Bill Stites:
some are tighter, some are looser. You know, there's so
Bill Stites:
much at play here that I really, honestly don't have to think
Bill Stites:
about for me when I'm thinking about tools, or if I'm working
Bill Stites:
with a leadership team that is considering AI, I will break
Bill Stites:
down what I like about the tools that I. I use that if they're
Bill Stites:
like, Hey, we haven't really explored AI. What do you think?
Bill Stites:
And the biggest challenge, Bill honestly, is just that these
Bill Stites:
tools are changing so fast, they're popping up, they're
Bill Stites:
gonna die off. It's just like the ed tech boom of like, 12
Bill Stites:
years ago or whatever. So for me, it's really about
Bill Stites:
functionality. It's about flexibility. You know, a lot of
Bill Stites:
teachers are super excited about magic school AI, and I get it,
Bill Stites:
it does a million different things. For me, I'm still like
Bill Stites:
more drawn to using a chat bot more flexibly, which most
Bill Stites:
teachers, that's a big ask for them. They'd rather have the AI
Bill Stites:
powered tool that they can just put the simple inputs and it
Bill Stites:
does all the background stuff and spits out something for
Bill Stites:
them. And I want more personalization. And so that's
Bill Stites:
why tools like school AI are attractive to me. Is the
Bill Stites:
opportunity for teachers to kind of create the context, the
Bill Stites:
boundaries, and then let students access the support
Bill Stites:
notebook, LMS, one I talk about a lot, and then teachers are
Bill Stites:
like, Wait, students can't use that. And I'm like, Well, I'm
Bill Stites:
like, Well, the way I'm advocating that it be used, they
Bill Stites:
don't have to use it like it's a teacher tool we're using to
Bill Stites:
create a resource that then we make available. So it's really,
Bill Stites:
really complicated, but one of the things you said, I do want
Bill Stites:
to really stress is I don't think the PD should be focused
Bill Stites:
on how to use the tool myopically. I think that's one
Bill Stites:
of the biggest mistakes school districts make, is they invest a
Bill Stites:
ton of money in devices or in tools and applications, and then
Bill Stites:
the training is like, here's how you do this. Not to say that's
Bill Stites:
not important, but if it's not wrapped in a larger conversation
Bill Stites:
and professional learning experience that is grounded in
Bill Stites:
strong pedagogical practices aligned with your school
Bill Stites:
district's priorities and values. It's only going to be
Bill Stites:
this surface level addition to the teacher's tool set, it is
Bill Stites:
not going to fundamentally impact any substantive change,
Bill Stites:
and I think that's the biggest reason why all this money we
Bill Stites:
dumped into devices, all this investment in Wi Fi
Bill Stites:
infrastructure, hasn't for a lot of school districts, actually
Bill Stites:
yielded substantive improvements in student success, student
Bill Stites:
learning, student engagement.
Hiram Cuevas:
So Caitlin, we have some good news for you.
Hiram Cuevas:
Gemini and notebook LM are now considered to be core services
Hiram Cuevas:
out of Google. Under 18 is okay? Oh, that's great. So the various
Hiram Cuevas:
districts have to actually allow it, and many of them are
Hiram Cuevas:
probably in different stages, because it just went live with
Hiram Cuevas:
that agreement from Google. That's exciting. And so as a
Hiram Cuevas:
school, we're having those conversations about which
Hiram Cuevas:
organizational unit do we want to actually place it in? Do we
Hiram Cuevas:
want to just in our upper school right now? Do you want to go as
Hiram Cuevas:
far down as the middle school, but it's under 18? Is okay? It's
Hiram Cuevas:
a core service.
Hiram Cuevas:
Dr Catlin Tucker: Well, I will share with you, Hiram, my first
Hiram Cuevas:
interaction with notebook LM is because my daughter, who was a
Hiram Cuevas:
senior, she was studying for an AP Bio exam, and it was the
Hiram Cuevas:
morning, and she's kind of a slow mover, and I always have to
Hiram Cuevas:
be like, get out the door. You will be late to school. And I go
Hiram Cuevas:
down the hall and I'm hearing this conversation like she's
Hiram Cuevas:
watching television or something. And I was like,
Hiram Cuevas:
Cheyenne, what are you doing? And she's like, What is your
Hiram Cuevas:
problem, mom? And I'm like, What are you watching or listening
Hiram Cuevas:
to? You have to get out the door. She's like, Mom, it's an
Hiram Cuevas:
AI app that I fed my AP Bio notes into, and it created a
Hiram Cuevas:
live podcast, and I'm listening to it while I get ready so I can
Hiram Cuevas:
be ready for my test today. And I was like, I'm sorry, what is
Hiram Cuevas:
this thing you're using? I need to know all about it. And so the
Hiram Cuevas:
fact that now students under 18 could have the flexibility to
Hiram Cuevas:
create materials that might better work for them in the way
Hiram Cuevas:
that they're going to understand or retain information. Because I
Hiram Cuevas:
think the thing that shocked me about notebook LM, when I fed my
Hiram Cuevas:
own articles into it, was that the two conversationalists were
Hiram Cuevas:
like, creating these analogies that were not in my writing, but
Hiram Cuevas:
were wildly helpful to try to, like, understand the things I
Hiram Cuevas:
was talking about. And so I can see this being such a wonderful
Hiram Cuevas:
resource for learners to customize their own learning
Hiram Cuevas:
experience and studying habits and all of the above.
Christina Lewellen:
I think that that is a really great example.
Christina Lewellen:
And I love that you have your own teenage daughter voice, I do
Christina Lewellen:
the same voice, even though none of my daughters talk like that,
Christina Lewellen:
I have four of them. Whenever I do the teenage daughter voice,
Christina Lewellen:
it's like, oh my god. And they're like, We don't talk like
Christina Lewellen:
that, right? Like, Mom, stop. So I get the Mom Stop plenty. So
Christina Lewellen:
I'm 100% with you. All right. So as we start winding this down. I
Christina Lewellen:
do want to make note that you had a very pivotal moment in
Christina Lewellen:
your career, and that was you won the Sonoma County Teacher of
Christina Lewellen:
the Year award. That recognition had to have shaped your own
Christina Lewellen:
trajectory as an educational thought leader, and you have
Christina Lewellen:
since done all these really cool things leading other. Teachers.
Christina Lewellen:
I think what would be really interesting for our audience to
Christina Lewellen:
hear is if you had to kind of go back to your early teacher days,
Christina Lewellen:
but it's set in today's setting. What do you think you would do
Christina Lewellen:
differently? In other words, like, what is your advice for
Christina Lewellen:
teachers entering the workforce? Or how would you tackle that?
Christina Lewellen:
Because you do have this experience now as an educational
Christina Lewellen:
thought leader and an award winning teacher, young kids
Christina Lewellen:
don't have that when they're entering their first teaching
Christina Lewellen:
gigs. I think that it'd be really interesting for
Christina Lewellen:
technology leaders to hear your response to this, because in so
Christina Lewellen:
many ways, the tech leaders can help teachers be successful, and
Christina Lewellen:
in fact, they're a customer like we want teachers to be
Christina Lewellen:
successful. So what do you think your advice is, or would be, to
Christina Lewellen:
new teachers starting out now?
Christina Lewellen:
Dr Catlin Tucker: Oh my gosh. So to put this in my own journey, I
Christina Lewellen:
sometimes cringe when I think about the first five or six
Christina Lewellen:
years of my teaching career and those poor students. I was so
Christina Lewellen:
rigid I wasn't doing any of the things that we just talked about
Christina Lewellen:
the last like, however many minutes we've been chatting, I
Christina Lewellen:
was like, we're all gonna do it this way. We're gonna submit
Christina Lewellen:
this. And I felt like I had to dictate everything. I felt
Christina Lewellen:
pressure to know everything, and I absolutely did not. I was
Christina Lewellen:
terrified of student feedback. And so I think if I was to go
Christina Lewellen:
back in time, or if I was to just kind of give a new teacher
Christina Lewellen:
advice, one remember that these kids are in these spaces all
Christina Lewellen:
day, five days a week, and think about how it must feel to sit
Christina Lewellen:
and be expected to be quiet and focus and listen for the better
Christina Lewellen:
part of seven hours every day. Like, I can't do that as an
Christina Lewellen:
adult. So one give yourself and your students grace, and don't
Christina Lewellen:
lose the fun after third grade. Like, have fun with these kids.
Christina Lewellen:
Invite them into the process. If you don't know something, be
Christina Lewellen:
like, I don't know. Let's figure it out. That's that right now
Christina Lewellen:
we're a community searching for an answer, and now it's not
Christina Lewellen:
scary for my kids to say, I don't know. I don't know the
Christina Lewellen:
answer to that. And do not be afraid to ask your students for
Christina Lewellen:
feedback. And you just said, teachers are the customers for
Christina Lewellen:
some of the IT people, right? But like students, are also the
Christina Lewellen:
customers. They have to consume everything we dish out and ask
Christina Lewellen:
them to do. So how's it working? What are they enjoying? What are
Christina Lewellen:
they not enjoying? Because I will tell a very brief story.
Christina Lewellen:
One of the things I was immovable on in my first five
Christina Lewellen:
years was annotations. I was an English teacher. We read six
Christina Lewellen:
books a year. Every single page had to have an annotation, at
Christina Lewellen:
least one on it. And every time I asked my students for feedback
Christina Lewellen:
on the Google Form at the semester break, the thing that
Christina Lewellen:
they almost unanimously, over 90% said what they wanted to do
Christina Lewellen:
less of in my class, because that was a question annotations.
Christina Lewellen:
And I was still like, no, they're good for you. They
Christina Lewellen:
worked for me. They work for you. And then when I got to year
Christina Lewellen:
six or seven, I was like, why am I making everybody do this the
Christina Lewellen:
same way? They hate it. So I the next year, spent the first six
Christina Lewellen:
weeks of school onboarding them to three different strategies
Christina Lewellen:
for active reading. After that, they could choose the one that
Christina Lewellen:
worked for them, the next Google Form survey I did for feedback,
Christina Lewellen:
I had two out of 170 students mention active reading. That's
Christina Lewellen:
it. So for me, there's just some real learning that happens once
Christina Lewellen:
I think you get comfortable with yourself and realize you don't
Christina Lewellen:
have to be perfect, you don't have to have all the answers.
Christina Lewellen:
These kids have really wonderful insights, and you should be
Christina Lewellen:
asking them for feedback.
Christina Lewellen:
Okay, so now I have a challenge for my co
Christina Lewellen:
hosts, and that is, you just heard Catlin say that she would
Christina Lewellen:
have encouraged additional flexibility and soliciting
Christina Lewellen:
student feedback. Okay, so that's her advice for young
Christina Lewellen:
teachers. How can tech teams then support that? You guys are
Christina Lewellen:
the tech leaders. So if you had a teacher who came to you and
Christina Lewellen:
said one of those things, I'm being kind of uptight about
Christina Lewellen:
things, I'd like to be a little more flexible. I'd like to get
Christina Lewellen:
some student feedback going. What can a tech leader do to be
Christina Lewellen:
responsive to what she just said?
Bill Stites:
I think the one thing I would go with, and it's
Bill Stites:
topic we've talked about on the pod before is I would make sure
Bill Stites:
I was be willing to model for them what I think will work, and
Bill Stites:
even model failure and how to be adaptive to failure. Because
Bill Stites:
when you fail, you've learned something, and so you're not
Bill Stites:
really failing at it. You're just figuring out this wasn't
Bill Stites:
the way to do that. And I think opening up about the work that
Bill Stites:
we do on even a day to day basis, maybe you're not modeling
Bill Stites:
it directly related to the task that you're trying to show them
Bill Stites:
to do, but to be able to pull out that anecdote or that
Bill Stites:
example of what you did, what you thought you were going to do
Bill Stites:
to make things easier, where it fell down, and how you were able
Bill Stites:
to pivot to get you to where. You are currently with those
Bill Stites:
things. I think those are important lessons, and they're
Bill Stites:
ones, particularly with earlier teachers that fear of failure,
Bill Stites:
you know that I'm doing something wrong, and the
Bill Stites:
unwillingness or the hesitancy to kind of embrace that as a
Bill Stites:
learning opportunity is something that I think we need
Bill Stites:
to do a better job at
Hiram Cuevas:
Christina. I think what I would encourage this is
Hiram Cuevas:
really, I think the frosting to what Bill said is, when you have
Hiram Cuevas:
a young teacher come on in, oftentimes they are completely
Hiram Cuevas:
unaware of what your school's tech stack is. So when they come
Hiram Cuevas:
in and they have this interest to do some exploration on how to
Hiram Cuevas:
reach students at all levels, introduce them to the tools that
Hiram Cuevas:
you already possess as a school. And to Bill's point, you model
Hiram Cuevas:
that effectively. You point them to lead teachers that are also
Hiram Cuevas:
using these certain tools effectively. They may actually
Hiram Cuevas:
be in different divisions, which means you can get a cross
Hiram Cuevas:
section of how tools are used across different age groups and
Hiram Cuevas:
different skill abilities. And so this is an opportunity, I
Hiram Cuevas:
think, as tech leaders and Ed Tech directors in particular, to
Hiram Cuevas:
leverage that tech stack that's already been a approved. The
Hiram Cuevas:
terms of service are all a good thing. The data privacy is in
Hiram Cuevas:
sync, and there's no risk of this. Said new teacher going out
Hiram Cuevas:
on their own, trying to find tools that they're trying to
Hiram Cuevas:
explore, see in order to leverage to reach more students,
Hiram Cuevas:
take advantage of the tech stack. Keep it up to date.
Christina Lewellen:
Catlin, how do you feel about that?
Christina Lewellen:
Response? Sounds like some additional good advice. I
Christina Lewellen:
Dr Catlin Tucker: love that. I love the modeling bill. I think
Christina Lewellen:
what you said is critical. I also would love leadership to be
Christina Lewellen:
doing that right, like everybody in the school community should
Christina Lewellen:
be modeling learning and failing forward, period. And I do agree,
Christina Lewellen:
Hiram, just making the visibility of like this is what
Christina Lewellen:
you have access to, and these are some of the pain points and
Christina Lewellen:
problems and things that they solve or they do. And also,
Christina Lewellen:
here's a teacher using something and doing a pretty awesome job.
Christina Lewellen:
Why don't you go check it out?
Christina Lewellen:
There's a lot to be concerned about with
Christina Lewellen:
education, and we've talked a lot about some of the challenges
Christina Lewellen:
in education. But for our final question, can you tell me what
Christina Lewellen:
excites you about the future of education? What do you get
Christina Lewellen:
really
Christina Lewellen:
Dr Catlin Tucker: ramped up about? I love learning. I am
Christina Lewellen:
like a huge dork, and so I think for me, I don't think AI, I
Christina Lewellen:
don't think tech, it's not saving education. But I think in
Christina Lewellen:
the hands of curious, excited, passionate educators, these
Christina Lewellen:
tools can help us to transform environments that right now, a
Christina Lewellen:
lot of them are like operating like network television, and
Christina Lewellen:
everybody's getting like, kind of the same thing at same time,
Christina Lewellen:
the same way, whether they like it or not, need it or not, the
Christina Lewellen:
pace works or not, and really start to create spaces that work
Christina Lewellen:
for teachers and learners, and for me, we're not there yet. It
Christina Lewellen:
sometimes feels like an uphill journey to make change in
Christina Lewellen:
education, but I see the light, and I want students to enjoy
Christina Lewellen:
being in our classrooms and enjoy wrestling with ideas and
Christina Lewellen:
feel supported and feel inspired and feel that it's relevant. And
Christina Lewellen:
I think all of these things we talked about today, we have
Christina Lewellen:
potential to do that.
Christina Lewellen:
Dr Catlin Tucker, you are a delight, and I
Christina Lewellen:
think that you are like the dream teacher that every tech
Christina Lewellen:
team would love to support. Thank you so much for sharing
Christina Lewellen:
your insights and for kind of bringing us into that incredible
Christina Lewellen:
brain of yours, because I think that you're on to more than a
Christina Lewellen:
couple of things here. So this is fantastic. And thank you so
Christina Lewellen:
so much.
Christina Lewellen:
Dr Catlin Tucker: Oh, my pleasure. It was wonderful to
Christina Lewellen:
spend this time with you
Peter Frank:
guys. This has been talking technology with Atlas,
Peter Frank:
produced by the Association of technology leaders in
Peter Frank:
independent schools. For more information about Atlas and
Peter Frank:
Atlas membership, please visit theatlas.org if you enjoyed this
Peter Frank:
discussion, please subscribe, leave a review and share this
Peter Frank:
podcast with your colleagues in the independent school
Peter Frank:
community. Thank you for listening. You.
