Vriti Saraf on AI, Pedagogy, and the Future of Education
From the ATLIS Annual Conference 2025
Join Christina Lewellen and Hiram Cuevas as they speak with Vriti Saraf, co-founder and CEO of Ed3DAO, about the intersection of AI and education. Vriti discusses the need for educators to move beyond superficial AI use to foster deeper cognitive abilities and critical thinking in students. She also explores the concept of "portrait of a teacher in the age of AI" and the challenges and opportunities AI presents for independent schools.
Resources
Transcript
Peter Frank:
Ed, welcome to Talking technology with Atlas,
Peter Frank:
the show that plugs you into the important topics and trends for
Peter Frank:
technology leaders all through a unique Independent School lens.
Peter Frank:
We'll hear stories from technology directors and other
Peter Frank:
special guests from the Independent School community,
Peter Frank:
and provide you with focused learning and deep dive topics.
Peter Frank:
And now please welcome your host. Kristina llewellen,
Christina Lewellen:
hello everyone, and welcome back to
Christina Lewellen:
talking technology with Atlas. I'm Kristina llewellen, the
Christina Lewellen:
president and CEO of the Association of Technology
Christina Lewellen:
Leaders in Independent Schools.
Bill Stites:
And I'm Bill Stites, the Director of
Bill Stites:
Technology at Montclair Kimberly Academy in Montclair, New
Bill Stites:
Jersey,
Hiram Cuevas:
and I'm Hiram Cuevas, the Director of
Hiram Cuevas:
Information Systems and Academic Technology at St Christopher
Hiram Cuevas:
school in Richmond,
Christina Lewellen:
Virginia. So hey, Bill, on this episode, we
Christina Lewellen:
have a present for you. We have a gift that we are hand
Christina Lewellen:
delivering, yes, and that is that we know that you are being
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pulled in a million directions at the Atlas annual conference
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and you missed the opportunity to record a podcast live on the
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stage when we were in Atlanta with one of our main stage
Christina Lewellen:
keynote speakers. So we recorded it, Hiram and I did, and now
Christina Lewellen:
it's our present for you.
Bill Stites:
Well, thank you. I was fearful that I was going to
Bill Stites:
miss out, and indeed, I did. So I'm eager for my present,
Christina Lewellen:
yes, well, it will be dropping. You'll get
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to listen to it fresh like the rest of our loving listeners.
Christina Lewellen:
This podcast is with Vritti sarof, and certainly, if you
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were in Atlanta, you remember her. She was also part of a
Christina Lewellen:
panel discussion that we did on our day two keynote, but we
Christina Lewellen:
pulled her aside because she is the co founder and CEO of Ed
Christina Lewellen:
three Dao, and it's a nonprofit organization that up skills
Christina Lewellen:
educators on emerging technologies, and she really
Christina Lewellen:
does that through a lot of research based pedagogy. So
Christina Lewellen:
she's helping a lot of educators across the country and the world
Christina Lewellen:
wrestle some of these big issues that we're all dealing with and
Christina Lewellen:
that I know our tech leaders wrestle on a regular basis.
Christina Lewellen:
She's also the founder of K 12 educators, which is a design
Christina Lewellen:
studio and a consultancy to help with some of this work, and from
Christina Lewellen:
that they incubated the ED three Dao platform and organization.
Christina Lewellen:
Vritti started her career as a Teach for America teacher. So
Christina Lewellen:
she has that background. She was based in Brooklyn, New York, and
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we talked with her a little bit about that. She has since served
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as a professor and a dean, a director in public and private
Christina Lewellen:
and charter schools, both here in the States, but
Christina Lewellen:
internationally across K 12 and higher ed. She serves in a bunch
Christina Lewellen:
of advisory roles at X Prize, full steam forward and me
Christina Lewellen:
premiere Bitcoin. So she is definitely a thought leader in
Christina Lewellen:
all of these emerging technologies. It was such a
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privilege to sit down and talk to her before we launch into
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that recording. Hiram, do you have any recollection or
Christina Lewellen:
thoughts about our conversation with her? Because it was pretty
Christina Lewellen:
impactful to me,
Hiram Cuevas:
absolutely. Thank you. Kristina, yeah, one of the
Hiram Cuevas:
things that she mentioned that I'm very excited about is the
Hiram Cuevas:
portrait of a teacher concept that her organization is looking
Hiram Cuevas:
to grow and foster. And I'm excited that there's going to be
Hiram Cuevas:
a potential relationship between her organization and Atlas. So
Hiram Cuevas:
with that, there's some really interesting and transformative
Hiram Cuevas:
things that are going to be coming down the pipe. She
Christina Lewellen:
left a fingerprint on my brain for
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sure. You know, we only had a limited time with her to kind of
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squeeze in a lot of conversation. And in that work,
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she was talking about the portrait of teacher. I felt like
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there was so much more to unpack there. And so everyone in the
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Atlas community just stay tuned, because we will absolutely be
Christina Lewellen:
walking that path with reedy and learning more as our
Christina Lewellen:
relationship unfolds. But in the meantime, I think that this
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recording is a wonderful way for us to introduce the broader
Christina Lewellen:
Atlas community to Vritti Saurav and the work that she's done. So
Christina Lewellen:
should we launch into it
Hiram Cuevas:
now? Absolutely stay tuned, folks. This is
Hiram Cuevas:
fabulous. Yeah, and here
Christina Lewellen:
you go. Bill our present to you. I hope you
Christina Lewellen:
enjoy it. Let's go. We are recording live from our Atlanta
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conference, our 10th Anniversary celebration, and we are sitting
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here today recording in the morning on day two, we just did
Christina Lewellen:
our general session, and a lot of folks went out to the karaoke
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bar last night, but I can't believe how many people actually
Christina Lewellen:
showed up. Must be the great topics we had
Unknown:
absolutely and we got to see Peter Frank, our very
Unknown:
own. Peter Frank, really kill it.
Christina Lewellen:
Yeah, our producer, Peter Frank, was
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karaoke. We may have to put that video in the show notes. All
Christina Lewellen:
right. So today we have Welcome to our pod, one of our keynote
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panelists from this morning, we had such a great conversation
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about everything from quantum computing to the future of AI
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and how pedagogy is being affected. So we are excited to
Christina Lewellen:
have Vritti Saurav with us today. Vritti, thank you so much
Christina Lewellen:
for being with us. Thank you for having me so you are the co
Christina Lewellen:
founder and CEO of Ed three. Dow. Yes, tell us a little bit
Christina Lewellen:
about this nonprofit. What is it all about?
Vriti Saraf:
We try to help educators upscale in emerging
Vriti Saraf:
technology using research based pedagogy. We have a pet peeve
Vriti Saraf:
right now with AI. We believe that AI is being implemented in
Vriti Saraf:
classrooms on a very superficial level, and we really want
Vriti Saraf:
educators and students to understand how to think with AI,
Vriti Saraf:
not just use AI. We have three areas of operation, and one of
Vriti Saraf:
them is we build courses in partnership with universities
Vriti Saraf:
and districts, where we have educators learn about emerging
Vriti Saraf:
technologies on their own pace. And we have a community of
Vriti Saraf:
practice with about 2500 global educators that exchange best
Vriti Saraf:
practices with each other and connect with each other on
Vriti Saraf:
emerging tech. And then we have an R and D arm where we solicit
Vriti Saraf:
funds to push projects that are going to help education get to
Vriti Saraf:
the next frontier. And two of the projects that might be
Vriti Saraf:
interesting to this conversation, one is on
Vriti Saraf:
competency based assessments, and the other one is on the
Vriti Saraf:
portrait of a teacher in the age of AI,
Christina Lewellen:
oh my gosh. That gives us so much to dive
Christina Lewellen:
into. I don't I almost don't even know exactly where to
Christina Lewellen:
begin, but I kind of want to start with something that you
Christina Lewellen:
mentioned in the keynote, which is that there's this surface
Christina Lewellen:
level interaction with AI. Help me unpack that a little bit.
Christina Lewellen:
What do you consider surface level interaction with AI? And
Christina Lewellen:
what are you hoping that educators will instead get a
Christina Lewellen:
little deeper with so
Vriti Saraf:
one of the greatest things about AI is that it can
Vriti Saraf:
do so much for you. It's the llms, the large language models
Vriti Saraf:
are becoming so advanced that they can do a lot of dynamic
Vriti Saraf:
thinking. Yet the way that we're actually using AI right now,
Vriti Saraf:
whether it's Chat GPT or some of the branded things like magic
Vriti Saraf:
school or school AI, we're using them to make more efficient the
Vriti Saraf:
practices that we already do to maintain the status quo of
Vriti Saraf:
schooling, and because we are currently in a system, whether
Vriti Saraf:
it's you're a public school or private school, Independent
Vriti Saraf:
School, where there's a lot of bureaucracy that we need to
Vriti Saraf:
adhere to, like testing and things like that, we find that
Vriti Saraf:
teachers are really struggling to keep up. Teachers are trying
Vriti Saraf:
to survive every day, trying to make sure that they can meet the
Vriti Saraf:
demands that we currently have, and with AI, what they're seeing
Vriti Saraf:
is a solution to meet those demands as a solution to make
Vriti Saraf:
more efficient what they're already doing, but not
Vriti Saraf:
necessarily to innovate and move the education system to the next
Vriti Saraf:
frontier. And so what I'm seeing right now is educators using AI
Vriti Saraf:
for lesson planning or for tutoring or for creating project
Vriti Saraf:
materials, things like that, but they're not necessarily using it
Vriti Saraf:
to enhance their own cognitive abilities or to help students
Vriti Saraf:
enhance their cognitive abilities. And one of the things
Vriti Saraf:
that I'm afraid of, which hasn't, you know, there's no
Vriti Saraf:
data on this yet, but I wonder if there might be soon, will the
Vriti Saraf:
use of AI in the way that we're using it right now actually
Vriti Saraf:
cause cognitive atrophy? That's really interesting concept
Vriti Saraf:
there. Yes,
Christina Lewellen:
we talk a lot about burnout being
Christina Lewellen:
mitigated with the use of AI. So that's kind of that surface
Christina Lewellen:
level. I totally buy what you're saying about it getting to that
Christina Lewellen:
next level. But is there some benefit to starting with, like
Christina Lewellen:
the simple wins? Oh, absolutely,
Vriti Saraf:
yeah. So it's real important that we try to
Vriti Saraf:
approach this technology in a very low hanging fruit sort of
Vriti Saraf:
way. But the problem is, we're staying there. We're not
Vriti Saraf:
actually moving past it, and llms are getting so much more
Vriti Saraf:
advanced so fast, but we're not able to keep up, one because
Vriti Saraf:
it's too hard to keep up, but also because we're not actually
Vriti Saraf:
moving past our own biases and inclinations to stay where we
Vriti Saraf:
are, and we're really trying to meet the demands of what we
Vriti Saraf:
again, are being told to do, rather than actually trying to
Vriti Saraf:
advance our
Christina Lewellen:
ecosystem. It's really interesting. So some
Christina Lewellen:
of the educators that are doing this well, like, do you have
Christina Lewellen:
certain models that you sort of hold on the pedestal and say
Christina Lewellen:
they're doing it well, they're
Vriti Saraf:
doing it correctly Well, I mean, if we look at the
Vriti Saraf:
two students today from Mount Vernon, oh my gosh. So
Vriti Saraf:
incredible, so incredible. The way that they were thinking
Vriti Saraf:
about the usage of AI. They were really trying to build their own
Vriti Saraf:
comprehension and critical thinking skills through the
Vriti Saraf:
interaction of AI. They weren't just saying, Hey, make this
Vriti Saraf:
movie for me. They were saying, Oh, they gave me a movie name
Vriti Saraf:
that already exists and a plot that already exists. Let me
Vriti Saraf:
actually change this, because that's not what I want. I don't
Vriti Saraf:
want to steal IP and let me think about how I can actually
Vriti Saraf:
adapt this so that it represents me, right. Another conversation,
Vriti Saraf:
you know, Patrick mentioned earlier, is, how do we really
Vriti Saraf:
engage AI in a way that helps us with our own identity, and how
Vriti Saraf:
it actually helps us build our sense of self? So one of the
Vriti Saraf:
things that I really like to do with any LLM that I interact
Vriti Saraf:
with is, instead of asking it what I would do in a difficult
Vriti Saraf:
situation, I tell it what I would do, and then I ask it,
Vriti Saraf:
what are my blind spots? What are the different perspectives I
Vriti Saraf:
should be considering? What would happen if this would
Vriti Saraf:
happen creating simulations, and that makes me smarter, because
Vriti Saraf:
the next time I'm encountering a problem like this. I can think
Vriti Saraf:
about the things that AI has advised me to do to basically
Vriti Saraf:
improve upon my decision making next time, right? Yeah, it's a
Vriti Saraf:
coach, right? Absolutely.
Hiram Cuevas:
So the depth of your prompts, to use a line that
Hiram Cuevas:
you mentioned during the keynote, is helping you
Hiram Cuevas:
establish that making meaning for the next step that you're
Hiram Cuevas:
trying to accomplish. I'd like to take a step back, because as
Hiram Cuevas:
I was reading up on your work, I noticed that you did a Teach for
Hiram Cuevas:
America stint, and I actually worked with underachievers in
Hiram Cuevas:
science education in the state of Virginia, had a grant to work
Hiram Cuevas:
with them as well. How did that journey influence where you are
Hiram Cuevas:
today?
Vriti Saraf:
Teach For America fundamental changed my life. I
Vriti Saraf:
was a very different person before TFA, and the thing that
Vriti Saraf:
TFA did for me, which is something that I think we, you
Vriti Saraf:
know, as parents, I actually just became a mom, and it's
Vriti Saraf:
something we as parents often think about, but don't often
Vriti Saraf:
allow to happen, which is the idea of struggle with Teach for
Vriti Saraf:
America. The thing that it taught me, because it was such a
Vriti Saraf:
difficult program, I had never taught before. I had never
Vriti Saraf:
worked in inner city before, and when I worked with these
Vriti Saraf:
students who were so motivated and so interested, but had come
Vriti Saraf:
from very difficult backgrounds and were showing some of that
Vriti Saraf:
behavior in the classroom, I had to work really hard to come up
Vriti Saraf:
with 10 different solutions to engage each one of the students.
Vriti Saraf:
And I couldn't give up, right? It was the first time in my life
Vriti Saraf:
where I couldn't give up, because I had other people, 30
Vriti Saraf:
students, relying on me, right in my past before TFA, if I gave
Vriti Saraf:
up, the only person that would be disappointed would be me. And
Vriti Saraf:
so TFA fundamentally changed my understanding of resolve and
Vriti Saraf:
persistence and grit and all that. It really taught me to be
Vriti Saraf:
the person that I am today and really live with the struggle
Vriti Saraf:
and really try to be a solutions oriented person. Now, going back
Vriti Saraf:
to this parent comment that I just made, oftentimes, we engage
Vriti Saraf:
with our students, and we want to solve problems for them. We
Vriti Saraf:
want to give them the easy way out, because we don't want to
Vriti Saraf:
see them struggle. But the beauty of being human is this is
Vriti Saraf:
a little philosophical. It's the ability of suffering. Humans are
Vriti Saraf:
uniquely able to suffer AI is not AI cannot suffer. And so
Vriti Saraf:
that's one of the fundamental differences between AI and
Vriti Saraf:
humans, and that's what humans really are able to have over AI
Vriti Saraf:
and are able to continue using in order to make meaning of AI,
Vriti Saraf:
back to the GFA experience, what I've learned and how that's
Vriti Saraf:
shaped my experience of AI now is that journey that you have
Vriti Saraf:
with struggle, productive struggle, with the ability to
Vriti Saraf:
suffer, but then come out of it. Is really what is driving my
Vriti Saraf:
exploration of AI into making me cognitively more strong, rather
Vriti Saraf:
than just relying on AI to do the heavy lifting for me. If you
Christina Lewellen:
were entering Teach For America today
Christina Lewellen:
with those 10 different types of students or those 30 humans
Christina Lewellen:
relying on you in, what ways do you think you would use AI to
Christina Lewellen:
lighten the load a little
Vriti Saraf:
bit? That's a really great question. So I
Vriti Saraf:
taught kindergarten, Oh, wow. And I would not implement any AI
Vriti Saraf:
apps in the classroom with my students, because I don't, you
Vriti Saraf:
know, this is my personal belief. I would not expose my
Vriti Saraf:
kindergarteners to screens. That's just not something that I
Vriti Saraf:
think is, you know, good for human development. But of
Vriti Saraf:
course, there's other research out there around that, and
Vriti Saraf:
everybody has their own opinion. What I would do, though is I
Vriti Saraf:
would use AI to think about my centers. I would use AI to think
Vriti Saraf:
about how I might be able to create autonomous bots to be
Vriti Saraf:
able to carry out different sort of courses of action. If I gave
Vriti Saraf:
it certain amount of data, I would use it to create literacy
Vriti Saraf:
materials that were more personalized for my students. I
Vriti Saraf:
would probably use AI to analyze the data that I was getting.
Vriti Saraf:
There's so many ways that I think I could have been so much
Vriti Saraf:
more efficient with AI. So it's an extension of you, an
Vriti Saraf:
extension of me,
Hiram Cuevas:
and really, I'm noticing that thread of making
Hiram Cuevas:
meaning is permeating throughout that entire conversation that we
Hiram Cuevas:
just had
Christina Lewellen:
about with Atlas. I spend a lot of time on
Christina Lewellen:
the road, and it's not often that I end up in faculty facing
Christina Lewellen:
I'm more often with administrators and leadership
Christina Lewellen:
teams, but on occasion, when I'm with faculty, I generally kind
Christina Lewellen:
of approach it like, let's start with getting you comfortable
Christina Lewellen:
with tools so that you at least know where it's going, and you
Christina Lewellen:
know not about the tools you're using with your students, but
Christina Lewellen:
the tools to make your life easier, like, let's give you
Christina Lewellen:
your Sunday afternoons back. Let's use this as a way to
Christina Lewellen:
mitigate burnout and get through your mundane tasks a little
Christina Lewellen:
easier, a little quicker. And maybe that's a starting point.
Christina Lewellen:
Because, you know, if we try to equate it with the internet,
Christina Lewellen:
it's not like we became experts at the Internet overnight. It
Christina Lewellen:
took us time to figure it out and unpack it, and that's a lot
Christina Lewellen:
of the great work that you guys are doing. So now I want to
Christina Lewellen:
circle back to what you mentioned about competency based
Christina Lewellen:
work that you're doing. So in all of this, you know, this
Christina Lewellen:
morning, we talked about, okay, what skills are students going
Christina Lewellen:
to need to navigate the world and being discerning consumers
Christina Lewellen:
of AI, like we saw from these students from Mount. Vernon,
Christina Lewellen:
they're clearly on that path. But when you think about this
Christina Lewellen:
from like a skills based overall or a competency based kind of
Christina Lewellen:
approach to teaching, where does AI fit in that? How are you
Christina Lewellen:
thinking about those things?
Vriti Saraf:
One of the things that I mentioned during the
Vriti Saraf:
panel was that we have to look at AI through a critical
Vriti Saraf:
thinking lens, sure. And the reason why I harp on that over
Vriti Saraf:
and over again is because no matter what the technology is,
Vriti Saraf:
if there's a student or a teacher that can critically
Vriti Saraf:
think about it, then you don't have to worry about the
Vriti Saraf:
cheating, you don't have to worry about the policies, you
Vriti Saraf:
don't have to worry about any of that, because you're able to
Vriti Saraf:
make sense of the technology through that lens. And so when
Vriti Saraf:
we think about competencies, sure we have the AI, you know,
Vriti Saraf:
foundations, right? You should learn about LMS. You should
Vriti Saraf:
learn about their strengths and their weaknesses, the biases,
Vriti Saraf:
the IP protection, all that kind of stuff, because that will help
Vriti Saraf:
you use the systems better. But I think the fundamentals of
Vriti Saraf:
critical thinking, of being socially aware, self aware,
Vriti Saraf:
understanding those, what we call durable skills, are going
Vriti Saraf:
to be so much more impactful for a student's future than just
Vriti Saraf:
understanding how to use an app, right? So I would definitely
Vriti Saraf:
like focus more on those competencies that are evergreen,
Vriti Saraf:
those durable skills before I even think about technology.
Hiram Cuevas:
So do you think there are any soft skills that
Hiram Cuevas:
AI can help students with? Oh, absolutely.
Vriti Saraf:
Yeah, there are several skills, right? So even
Vriti Saraf:
if you think about self awareness, for example,
Vriti Saraf:
sometimes it's really hard to be self aware and be honest with
Vriti Saraf:
yourself, and it's really hard to talk to another human who you
Vriti Saraf:
might think might judge you if you have an AI bot where you're
Vriti Saraf:
actually engaging with it and actually feeding it tons of
Vriti Saraf:
information about yourself, hopefully it will be data
Vriti Saraf:
protected, and you're able to ask it questions that you know
Vriti Saraf:
you wouldn't be comfortable asking another human, then
Vriti Saraf:
you're going to learn more about yourself engaging with that bot
Vriti Saraf:
than you might talking to another human and being
Vriti Saraf:
reflective with those practices, because AI is adaptive, that
Vriti Saraf:
reflection will then yield a different response from an LLM
Vriti Saraf:
the next time you engage with it. So all of those things
Vriti Saraf:
building upon each other definitely could help you build
Vriti Saraf:
those skills. And I'm
Hiram Cuevas:
so grateful that you mentioned the data privacy
Hiram Cuevas:
aspect of AI use in schools, because so often our teachers
Hiram Cuevas:
are equipped with that information. Just yet. I think
Hiram Cuevas:
the increase in awareness for cybersecurity and data privacy,
Hiram Cuevas:
just in general, with a lot of the applications that we're now
Hiram Cuevas:
using within schools, this is just another layer of support
Hiram Cuevas:
that we need to provide our teachers, because we do start
Hiram Cuevas:
throwing a lot of information into these bots, it could get
Hiram Cuevas:
very interesting quickly in terms of the PII that might be
Hiram Cuevas:
available. Yeah, the unfortunate
Vriti Saraf:
part is that there aren't any great solutions out
Vriti Saraf:
there just yet. You can have a local iteration of an LLM and be
Vriti Saraf:
able to store all that data locally, which is probably the
Vriti Saraf:
best solution right now. But the problem with that is, if you're
Vriti Saraf:
storing it locally, then it won't be as adaptive, and it
Vriti Saraf:
won't bring in the new version of the algorithm that might
Vriti Saraf:
actually help you make meaning of that data. So it's a little
Vriti Saraf:
bit of a difficult situation right now, but I'm sure there
Vriti Saraf:
will be a solution to it, because AI is so ubiquitous,
Vriti Saraf:
there is going to be people that figure out that
Hiram Cuevas:
solution. Are you seeing any applications that are
Hiram Cuevas:
kind of leading the charge in that area? There
Vriti Saraf:
are a few education llms, Merlin mine comes to mind.
Vriti Saraf:
Anthropic comes to mind because they try to focus a little bit
Vriti Saraf:
more on data privacy. But I don't think any of them really
Vriti Saraf:
are building fool proof models, just because AI is really hard
Vriti Saraf:
to understand right now, even by experts. And what is happening
Vriti Saraf:
with that data is a little bit unknown. We're on the cutting
Vriti Saraf:
edge,
Christina Lewellen:
folks, yeah, now you know that here at Atlas,
Christina Lewellen:
we're primarily an organization of technology teams that are
Christina Lewellen:
supporting our educators, and one of the things that I often
Christina Lewellen:
hear from our community is that teachers are overwhelmed.
Christina Lewellen:
They're juggling too much, and there's just it's like the wall
Christina Lewellen:
is up. There's no bandwidth. Even if this could save them
Christina Lewellen:
time, even if this could make their lives easier, even if it
Christina Lewellen:
could be an extension of them serving their students, there's
Christina Lewellen:
not a lot of receptive Yeah, oh, yeah. Give me another thing, any
Christina Lewellen:
advice, thoughts, inroads, yeah,
Vriti Saraf:
there's two ways you could potentially approach
Vriti Saraf:
this. One is if you approach a teacher through the pedagogy
Vriti Saraf:
perspective and say, let's talk about what you're doing right
Vriti Saraf:
now, especially if they're implementing really good
Vriti Saraf:
practices that are student centered. And you know, what is
Vriti Saraf:
the problem of practice that you're having? Don't even talk
Vriti Saraf:
about AI what is a problem of practice? Use design thinking to
Vriti Saraf:
basically help them unpack that problem of practice, and then
Vriti Saraf:
bring an AI bot and say, Hey, you mentioned that this was an
Vriti Saraf:
issue for you. Well, here's an example of how it could be
Vriti Saraf:
better. That's one way, especially because it really
Vriti Saraf:
lowers the barriers when you're talking about pedagogy. The
Vriti Saraf:
other way is a little bit more insidious, which is talk to
Vriti Saraf:
students first. So basically, interview students, engage
Vriti Saraf:
students and parents about. How they might want to or how they
Vriti Saraf:
already use AI, or how they might want their classroom to
Vriti Saraf:
change, and if you get enough coalition from students and from
Vriti Saraf:
parents, well, a revolution often starts from bottom down.
Vriti Saraf:
Yeah, and so that's really what could change the perspective of
Vriti Saraf:
teachers when students are starting to
Christina Lewellen:
demand it. That's interesting. Do you think
Christina Lewellen:
that it's the teacher's role to kind of be forward and future
Christina Lewellen:
focused, or do you think that it's more the tech leaders and
Christina Lewellen:
the administration, the leadership who should be looking
Christina Lewellen:
at the horizon to figure all this out?
Vriti Saraf:
I think one of the things that educators are often
Vriti Saraf:
falling short of, to be honest, is the concept of futures
Vriti Saraf:
thinking. So I think educators are often thinking, Well, how do
Vriti Saraf:
I get my student really prepared for the next grade? Or how do I
Vriti Saraf:
get my student to pass, or, you know, do really well within high
Vriti Saraf:
school or grade school or whatever it is, the thinking
Vriti Saraf:
varies, sort of like within a one year to five years. But if
Vriti Saraf:
we can get educators to think 10 years, 20 years, what is my
Vriti Saraf:
student going to be like when they're 25 years old, what
Vriti Saraf:
workforce are they going to pursue? How are they going to
Vriti Saraf:
lead a fulfilling and successful life? And I think their
Vriti Saraf:
instruction would actually be far better, and I think their
Vriti Saraf:
connection with a student and their understanding of the world
Vriti Saraf:
would be better, and they would also be more eager to integrate
Vriti Saraf:
technology. It's from the motivation of why you're doing
Vriti Saraf:
what you're doing. Teachers, because they are forced to think
Vriti Saraf:
about just one year because of all these bureaucratic systems,
Vriti Saraf:
they're thinking about, well, how do I survive this year? But
Vriti Saraf:
if there are asked to think about the next 20 years, then
Vriti Saraf:
maybe they'll say, Okay, well, if I need to prepare my student
Vriti Saraf:
to be thriving in 20 years, well, then I have to start
Vriti Saraf:
preparing them for that future, and now I have to start
Vriti Saraf:
integrating technology into
Hiram Cuevas:
it. So you mentioned 20 years of thinking
Hiram Cuevas:
about employment, but what about that next level, that higher ed
Hiram Cuevas:
lens, in terms of AI use and preparing the students today who
Hiram Cuevas:
are in high school that in three to four years, they're going to
Hiram Cuevas:
be in a landscape of higher education learning, and we
Hiram Cuevas:
should be preparing them with AI tools and AI functionality.
Vriti Saraf:
Yeah, there's two ways to look at that. One is if
Vriti Saraf:
you want students to be agentic in higher education, which is
Vriti Saraf:
generally our goal, because we don't want them to go into
Vriti Saraf:
college not being able to support themselves and be able
Vriti Saraf:
to have like, good habits of mind and all that to be able to
Vriti Saraf:
independently succeed. We want them to build those agency
Vriti Saraf:
skills in the classroom, right? So to your point, yes, all of
Vriti Saraf:
those things would be really helpful, especially if they want
Vriti Saraf:
agency with AI, agency with technical things like that. But
Vriti Saraf:
the other thing to think about is, right now, there's a huge
Vriti Saraf:
trend towards kids not going to college at all, to university,
Vriti Saraf:
right? Students are choosing to have gap years, or choosing to
Vriti Saraf:
pursue alternative vocations, or choosing to not go to university
Vriti Saraf:
at all. And so the question necessarily, is not, you know,
Vriti Saraf:
how are you going to be successful in higher education.
Vriti Saraf:
The question is, how will you have a fulfilling life in the
Vriti Saraf:
world? If you're familiar with the concept of ikigai, it's a
Vriti Saraf:
Japanese framework that basically talks about your
Vriti Saraf:
purpose. There's four factors to identifying your purpose. One is
Vriti Saraf:
finding what you really love. The next is finding what you're
Vriti Saraf:
really good at. The next is finding what you'll get paid
Vriti Saraf:
for, and the fourth is finding what will help the world and
Vriti Saraf:
what the world will actually be prepared for. So those four
Vriti Saraf:
things put together, help you find your purpose. And I think
Vriti Saraf:
in the past, we focused on students either just finding
Vriti Saraf:
their vocation, being able to make money, or just finding what
Vriti Saraf:
they love, like not all four, not all four. It wasn't
Vriti Saraf:
comprehensive, right? And all four of those really help you
Vriti Saraf:
identify. You know, what will help you lead a fulfilling life.
Vriti Saraf:
And so if in school, starting in kindergarten, we can start
Vriti Saraf:
helping the students start to identify, or start getting close
Vriti Saraf:
to what their iki guy is, then they can start making a path
Vriti Saraf:
towards that fulfilling life, developing that passion.
Christina Lewellen:
I know that now I have one other thing that
Christina Lewellen:
I sometimes bring up on the pod, which is that I have one of my
Christina Lewellen:
four daughters much older than your child, between 19 and 23
Christina Lewellen:
all of them college age, and one of them is pursuing education as
Christina Lewellen:
her profession and her calling, and they're not talking to her
Christina Lewellen:
about AI in college. Your thoughts on that? Her professors
Christina Lewellen:
do not bring it up. There's no conversations about it. She's
Christina Lewellen:
using it because I'm her mom, yeah, and I tell her about cool
Christina Lewellen:
tools, yeah, what do you think?
Vriti Saraf:
Unfortunately, that is the landscape right now. Most
Vriti Saraf:
people are too afraid to talk about AI one because it's a very
Vriti Saraf:
changing technology. There's a lot of advancements being made,
Vriti Saraf:
and a lot of people don't know what to do with it. Yeah, this
Vriti Saraf:
is why we're working on this concept of a portrait of a
Vriti Saraf:
teacher in the age of AI. So if you've heard of a portrait of a
Vriti Saraf:
graduate schools love that phrase, okay, perfect. Yeah. And
Vriti Saraf:
it's a really great mechanism to identify what competencies your
Vriti Saraf:
graduates are gonna need. We're. Right? But we don't often talk
Vriti Saraf:
about the relationship between a student and a teacher when
Vriti Saraf:
you're actually trying to embed these competencies into your
Vriti Saraf:
work. If you want a student to be agentic and critical thinking
Vriti Saraf:
and fulfilled, then you need a teacher to be agentic critical
Vriti Saraf:
thinking and fulfilled, right? But we don't often talk about
Vriti Saraf:
that. So to your point, if we want students to be ready for
Vriti Saraf:
the workforce, we need teachers to be ready for the workforce,
Vriti Saraf:
and they're not. So I think
Hiram Cuevas:
it's interesting, because that may be symptomatic
Hiram Cuevas:
of the education school in other schools, my daughter's in the
Hiram Cuevas:
architecture school at Virginia Tech, and they're using AI
Hiram Cuevas:
frequently. I know engineers are using it frequently. Coders in
Hiram Cuevas:
computer science using it frequently. I do think it
Hiram Cuevas:
mirrors something that our other co host, Bill Stites and I had a
Hiram Cuevas:
conversation about with our wives. They're both teachers,
Hiram Cuevas:
and teachers often feel like they're cheating when they use
Hiram Cuevas:
AI in the classroom. We've been trying to overcome that mindset,
Hiram Cuevas:
and it's that very superficial thought about how AI can be used
Hiram Cuevas:
within the educational environment. And I think it
Hiram Cuevas:
still permeates.
Vriti Saraf:
Well, do you guys remember when we started getting
Vriti Saraf:
access to the internet and when we were asked to do a research
Vriti Saraf:
report and create a bibliography? We referenced
Vriti Saraf:
Wikipedia and we referenced, you know, other sources that we got
Vriti Saraf:
off to the internet that felt like cheating, too, right?
Vriti Saraf:
Right? Until now, which it isn't how many of us actually go to
Vriti Saraf:
libraries anymore, right? Most of us actually access our
Vriti Saraf:
information off the internet. I think this is a time thing. I
Vriti Saraf:
think right now we because the technology is changing the
Vriti Saraf:
paradigm for how we engage with each other and with information,
Vriti Saraf:
that it's really creating this like barrier for us. But I think
Vriti Saraf:
within time, given, like, three years, five years, it's not
Vriti Saraf:
going to feel like cheating anymore. It's going to feel like
Vriti Saraf:
something that we do, and it's the best sort of resource out
Vriti Saraf:
there for us to use.
Christina Lewellen:
So Brad, can you actually paint for me that
Christina Lewellen:
portrait of a teacher? What does that look like with your
Christina Lewellen:
technology kind of focus? And I think that the part of the
Christina Lewellen:
question I like to get to, if you don't mind, is, what can our
Christina Lewellen:
tech leaders do to help paint that portrait of a teacher?
Vriti Saraf:
Yeah, so the project that we're engaging
Vriti Saraf:
with, it was funded by an organization called learner
Vriti Saraf:
studio. We are engaging in a year long R and D study,
Vriti Saraf:
basically where we're interviewing policy makers,
Vriti Saraf:
teachers, administrators, to basically identify what are
Vriti Saraf:
those competencies that we think teachers might need in the age
Vriti Saraf:
of AI, including people in the workforce. So not directly
Vriti Saraf:
linked to teachers, but directly linked to students, because
Vriti Saraf:
whatever, again, a student experiences, is what the
Vriti Saraf:
competencies teachers have. And so we're creating this big
Vriti Saraf:
research study where we're identifying what those
Vriti Saraf:
competencies might be, but we're also identifying what are the
Vriti Saraf:
things that teachers are doing every day, right? Is there a
Vriti Saraf:
giant list of the things that teachers are demanded to do
Vriti Saraf:
every single day? We're just compiling that to see. Well, how
Vriti Saraf:
might that shift in the age of AI, right? What are those tasks
Vriti Saraf:
and those skills that will fundamentally change when AI
Vriti Saraf:
agents become much more popular, and so how might that then shift
Vriti Saraf:
the portrait of a teacher? So we're taking this in phases.
Vriti Saraf:
We're doing some data gathering, then we're crafting a framework
Vriti Saraf:
using an advisory committee as well as a brain trust of
Vriti Saraf:
hopefully 500 educators around the world, and then we're going
Vriti Saraf:
to go back to those educators and say, Hey, so this is what we
Vriti Saraf:
came up with based on all the data that we gathered. What do
Vriti Saraf:
you think of this? And then we're going to come up with
Vriti Saraf:
that. So to answer your question, I don't know what the
Vriti Saraf:
answer is interesting. And the reason I don't know what the
Vriti Saraf:
answer is is because it's not my opinion. It shouldn't be my
Vriti Saraf:
opinion. It should be quantifiable and qualitative
Vriti Saraf:
data gathered from the people that are actually doing the
Vriti Saraf:
work. So
Christina Lewellen:
if people are interested in following
Christina Lewellen:
along at home in this really cool project. Where can they
Christina Lewellen:
find this information? So
Vriti Saraf:
we're gonna post invitations to join the brain
Vriti Saraf:
trust and the committee and all that kind of stuff on our
Vriti Saraf:
website, Ed three.com and we welcome anybody who's interested
Vriti Saraf:
in this project. And we want to make this an open source
Vriti Saraf:
project, so whatever is produced is actually going to be
Vriti Saraf:
available to everybody that was a part of it and to the general
Vriti Saraf:
public. We really want this information to be out there, and
Vriti Saraf:
we want people to be able to use this to create their own
Vriti Saraf:
portrait within their local level, because portraits do need
Vriti Saraf:
to be contextualized for your local situation. And we want
Vriti Saraf:
them to be able to impact their hiring decisions, their
Vriti Saraf:
professional development decisions, their evaluation
Vriti Saraf:
decisions, to make sure that now they're building this cadre of
Vriti Saraf:
teachers that is going to be prepared for the future.
Christina Lewellen:
Love it all right, so we'll definitely keep
Christina Lewellen:
a close eye on that and follow along. Is it for public facing
Christina Lewellen:
primarily, or are you looking for a mix of all types of
Christina Lewellen:
teachers?
Vriti Saraf:
It has to be a mix of all types of teachers. It has
Vriti Saraf:
to be a mix of independent, private, charter and public. We
Vriti Saraf:
have a great community. We
Christina Lewellen:
do have a good community with that, so we
Christina Lewellen:
can definitely walk that path with you. All right, so one of
Christina Lewellen:
my last questions for you, as we kind of start wrapping this up,
Christina Lewellen:
is I'd love to know what you are bullish and bearish on. In terms
Christina Lewellen:
of AI. So what do you love and what are you really concerned
Christina Lewellen:
about?
Vriti Saraf:
I love the potential for innovation with
Vriti Saraf:
AI. I think AI agents are going to really change how we engage
Vriti Saraf:
with each other and with the information that we consume and
Vriti Saraf:
learning in general. I think agents because they're able to
Vriti Saraf:
adapt every decision and autonomously execute every
Vriti Saraf:
subsequent decision. It's going to create these chains of
Vriti Saraf:
decision making that are going to be very impactful for the way
Vriti Saraf:
that we operate on a daily level. So I'm very bullish on
Vriti Saraf:
that awesome the bearish part, I'm really concerned about the
Vriti Saraf:
data privacy and AIP stuff. I do think that there is opportunity
Vriti Saraf:
for blockchain to be a potential solution for this, because
Vriti Saraf:
blockchain is decentralized and because it is immutable, I
Vriti Saraf:
wonder if it's possible to put our data and our IP onto
Vriti Saraf:
blockchain so that we can have more accountability for how it's
Vriti Saraf:
being used in an LLM, so that's a really interesting way to
Vriti Saraf:
potentially solve that problem, but I'm not quite sure how that
Vriti Saraf:
would manifest,
Christina Lewellen:
right? But you're concerned. That's what
Christina Lewellen:
you're watching us too.
Hiram Cuevas:
Now I'm always about stealing all the
Hiram Cuevas:
intellectual capital people have. What agent are you using?
Vriti Saraf:
Which LLM Am I using? Yes, I use a lot of
Vriti Saraf:
models. I actually don't use just one, because different
Vriti Saraf:
models are good for different things. Different things.
Hiram Cuevas:
But do you have a specific agent? Are you using an
Hiram Cuevas:
agent? Oh, currently, I
Vriti Saraf:
haven't seen any apps that will create an agent
Vriti Saraf:
for you that are perfect yet, and so I'm experimenting with a
Vriti Saraf:
bunch of different ones, but I haven't landed on one yet. All
Hiram Cuevas:
right. Like to dabble myself a little
Christina Lewellen:
dabbling, but being careful what you put
Christina Lewellen:
into it. Right? Absolutely, 100% so as the reality being that we
Christina Lewellen:
are in a conference with a bunch of tech folks, what questions do
Christina Lewellen:
you think technology leaders should be asking at this
Christina Lewellen:
conference, and also just of themselves, and as they move
Christina Lewellen:
through this early, what I say, adolescent phase of
Vriti Saraf:
AI. I think the main question is, how do I
Vriti Saraf:
improve my own cognitive abilities with AI? How do I
Vriti Saraf:
improve how I think with AI rather than what I do with AI
Vriti Saraf:
again? Like the thing that I don't want us to experience as a
Vriti Saraf:
human race is for our cognition to decline because we're letting
Vriti Saraf:
AI make all of our decisions for us. And so I think the main
Vriti Saraf:
question is not, you know what app is cool, or how can I offset
Vriti Saraf:
some of this administrative work to AI? All those things are
Vriti Saraf:
fine, and you should do that. But I think the bigger question,
Vriti Saraf:
especially with brilliant people around you, where you can really
Vriti Saraf:
start to engage with other people and nitpick at deeper
Vriti Saraf:
issues is, how do I get smarter using AI?
Christina Lewellen:
That's a good question. Hiram, do you
Christina Lewellen:
feel smarter with AI? I
Hiram Cuevas:
do. I do. I mean, I started using gems within
Hiram Cuevas:
Gemini to specifically cater to the type of request that I'm
Hiram Cuevas:
after. So every time I throw in a prompt, it knows exactly what
Hiram Cuevas:
I'm looking for, whether it's for Looker studio or whether
Hiram Cuevas:
it's for the Google administrative dashboard, it's
Hiram Cuevas:
been very, very helpful to restrain the type of information
Hiram Cuevas:
and actually have it develop the output that I desire.
Christina Lewellen:
It's awesome. I love it. Well.
Christina Lewellen:
Vritti, thank you so much for coming and sitting down with us.
Christina Lewellen:
I know that you have a lot of demands on your time here at
Christina Lewellen:
this conference and in general. So I'm so grateful that you made
Christina Lewellen:
time to come to the Atlas conference. It was really
Christina Lewellen:
incredible to have you here. You're stellar on the panel,
Christina Lewellen:
stellar on our pod. And I'd love to have an open invite when you
Christina Lewellen:
start moving down the path of the project that you're working
Christina Lewellen:
on with the portrait of a teacher that is so fascinating.
Christina Lewellen:
And I really think that there is a lot of work that our
Christina Lewellen:
technology leaders can do to support what those outcomes are.
Christina Lewellen:
So please open invitation. Come back and talk to us about it.
Christina Lewellen:
Once you've got some more of that data pulled together, we'd
Christina Lewellen:
love to hear about it. I would love to thanks so much for
Christina Lewellen:
having me. Yes, thank you.
Peter Frank:
This has been talking technology with Atlas,
Peter Frank:
produced by the Association of Technology Leaders in
Peter Frank:
Independent Schools. For more information about Atlas and
Peter Frank:
Atlas membership, please visit theatlas.org if you enjoyed this
Peter Frank:
discussion, please subscribe, leave a review and share this
Peter Frank:
podcast with your colleagues in the independent school
Peter Frank:
community. Thank you for listening. You
