Shoshanna Sumka on Experiential Education & Leadership
Join Shoshanna Shumka, Executive Director of the Independent School Experiential Education Network (ISEEN), as she discusses experiential education, the Kolb learning cycle, and the importance of human connection in learning. Discover how ISEEN supports educators and fosters impactful, real-world experiences for students.
- Independent Schools Experiential Education Network (ISEEN)
- ISEEN Programs
- What is Experiential Education?
- ISEEN Catalyst Institute
- Kolb’s experiential learning cycle
- Inside Dawson’s Innovation Center, four-minute video introducing the Alexander Dawson School’s experiential learning building
- Contact Shoshanna on LinkedIn
Transcript
Peter Frank:
Nick welcome to Talking technology with Atlas,
Peter Frank:
the show that plugs you into the important topics and trends for
Peter Frank:
technology leaders all through a unique Independent School lens,
Peter Frank:
we'll hear stories from technology directors and other
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special guests from the Independent School community and
Peter Frank:
provide you with focused learning and deep dive topics.
Ashley Cross:
Hello, everyone. So you'll notice today I am not
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Kristina Lewellen. This is Ashley Cross. I'm the Senior
Ashley Cross:
Director of Education and content here at Atlas, and I'm
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very excited to fill in for Kristina. Today, we're going to
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welcome a special guest in just a few minutes, Shoshana sunka,
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who is the Executive Director of the Independent School
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Experiential Education Network, I see, but before we do that,
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we'd like to just catch you up on what's happening. So we just
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got through with Memorial Day weekend. Bill Hiram, how did it
Ashley Cross:
go? What you guys do this Memorial Day? Good
Hiram Cuevas:
morning, Ashley. It's good to be here for those
Hiram Cuevas:
who don't know, I'm Hiram Cuevas, the Director of
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Information Systems at St Christopher school in Richmond,
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Virginia. So we had a wonderful time at our home. We had all the
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children come on over for a nice cookout. And we actually live
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right around the corner from a neighborhood pool, so there's
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all sorts of excitement going on in that vicinity. So we can hear
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all the laughter and all the patriotic music being played and
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the celebrations going on. So it was kind of a nice way to kind
Hiram Cuevas:
of have some fellowship at home and some good food and family
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time. That's awesome.
Bill Stites:
I am Bill Stites, the Director of Technology at
Bill Stites:
Montclair Kimberly Academy in Montclair New Jersey, but at
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this stage, after the weekend that I have, I feel like I am
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the New Jersey Parkway traveler. Normally on this weekend, I am
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down the Jersey Shore in Margate with my mother spending time on
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the beach. But as many of you know, my oldest has just
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graduated college. He has landed his first job, which put him out
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on Staten Island, scenic Staten Island, he was out there on
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Saturday starting his new job, and proceeded to have a car
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breakdown. So I spent my weekend driving down to the shore,
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driving back up home, dealing with that, and then driving back
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to the shore, and then driving back home yet again. So I think
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this is now the first time where it feels like my back end is not
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moving, is not doing between 70 miles an hour and 35 miles an
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hour, which, if you've ever traveled in New Jersey on any
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type of holiday weekend in the summer, you know you're either
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moving very fast or you're not moving at all. So I experienced
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all of that this past weekend, and I'm happy to be actually
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back at work, which is not something I normally say after a
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long weekend. I usually wanna still be on the beach, but I'm
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happy to be back and at it
Ashley Cross:
Well, Bill, I'm kind of on the opposite end of
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the parenting spectrum right now. My kids just got out of
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school. My son finished kindergarten. My daughter
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finished preschool. So we had the little blow up pool in the
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backyard. It's really nice, very hot down here in southern
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Alabama. So let's turn and start talking about our guest.
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Shoshana. Is a longtime leader in global learning and
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experiential pedagogy, so y'all She's really cool. I'm so
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excited to have her on the pod today. She's got over two
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decades of experience spanning university programs, k 12
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independent schools and national networks from keto to Sidwell
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Friends and now to her work at Isee, she has dedicated her
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career to building inclusive, Justice centered learning
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experiences that spark real world impact. Shoshana, welcome
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to the pod and tell us too, would you do
Shoshanna Shumka:
this Memorial Day? Oh my gosh. Thank you so
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much for having me here today. It's really exciting to be here.
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I went camping. I guess that's you know what experiential
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educators do. But we went to a really family friendly also have
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a fourth grader, so closer to that end of the parenting
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spectrum. But we went camping at the little Bennett campground
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here in Maryland, and we had a great time. We have beautiful
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weather. The sun was shining. It was freezing at night, so we
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kind of snuggled in our sleeping bags, but it was a great time.
Ashley Cross:
Shoshana, I have to tell you, my kindergartener
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Bennett, came home with a flyer for Cub Scouts at the beginning
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of the year, and it was like camping, and I was not a camping
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person at all. We've gotten into it this year with my family, and
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it has been such a lovely family experience for us. We've had a
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really, really good year. So that's cool that you guys do
Ashley Cross:
that as well. Yeah, it's really
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fun. You're like, in nature, you're like, No
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devices, you're just running around.
Unknown:
Yep, I actually
Hiram Cuevas:
went camping for our honeymoon with my bride two
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weeks. We can't we hit a bunch of national parks, and we
Hiram Cuevas:
figured out this marriage was going to last if we could hang
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out in a two person tent for two weeks.
Unknown:
Wow. Hiram,
Ashley Cross:
that is very adventurous. I'm impressed. 31
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years later, we're still together.
Bill Stites:
You might want to have done that prior to getting
Bill Stites:
married, but that's a different story. But yes, that's the 10.
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To do prior to actually putting the ring on the finger, my
Unknown:
friend. So
Ashley Cross:
Shawna, we're talking a lot about experiential
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education today. I love that you kicked us off with camping. Can
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you tell us a little bit about just a personal experience, kind
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of outside the classroom that's helped how you shape the world?
Shoshanna Shumka:
Well, this is a bit unusual, but when I was a
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senior in high school, my entire family moved to Nairobi, Kenya
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in East Africa. This was for my dad's job, and as you can
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imagine, it totally shifted the entire way that I see the world.
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So attending high school in Kenya, I went to school with
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people from all over the world who spoke dozens of different
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languages, the entire landscape of the East African savannah was
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different than where I grew up, in Silver Spring Maryland, and I
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learned about the importance of relationships across difference
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and how we learn from each other and just build understanding of
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People who are different than you. So that transformational
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experience, for me, sparked a desire to continue learning and
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traveling around the world. That's what kicked
Bill Stites:
it off. That's impressive. Spending that amount
Bill Stites:
of time going abroad like that. You don't often hear of that
Bill Stites:
type of high school experience, and that probably provided you
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an incredible overview and insight to how you can benefit
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from this type of travel, this type of work, getting out in the
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field, doing the things that you're doing. But before we kind
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of get into it, I would love for you to define for us, when we're
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talking about experiential education, what does that mean
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for you, and how does that differ from what we might be
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doing in schools that we might be calling project based
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learning or any other type of umbrella you want to put over
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that type of learning? What does that mean to you to set the
Bill Stites:
context for the conversation for our listeners?
Shoshanna Shumka:
I really appreciate that question, Bill,
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and also you might not know, but your school is an Isee member.
Bill Stites:
Oh, I know, yes, I know. Yes, not. I do know your
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school is doing it. And different people
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think about experiential education in different ways, but
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one shorthand way of talking about it is learning by doing.
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But it's so much more to that when I talk about experiential
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education, I'm thinking about a learning cycle where both
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children and adults, we all learn through reflecting on
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experiences. It's pretty simple when you think about it that
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way, and we broaden that to think of experiential education,
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or the way that I talk about it is as a pedagogy or even a
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mindset shift that incorporates the whole person. So it's
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looking at head, heart, hands, so emotional, cognitive and
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physical learning that has a holistic, interdisciplinary
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focus. So it brings in a lot of academic subjects that is
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applicable to the real world. And you know what you said?
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Bill, yes, project based learning, place based learning,
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outdoor education, are all under the umbrella. There's a big tent
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of experiential education. So all of those things are
Shoshanna Shumka:
considered experiential education.
Hiram Cuevas:
So Shauna, if we were to take a quick overview of
Hiram Cuevas:
your journey starting, obviously, it seemed like high
Hiram Cuevas:
school was one of those life experiences that probably is a
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punctuated moment in your life that has led you to the
Hiram Cuevas:
direction that you're in today. But what brought you to actually
Hiram Cuevas:
lead Isee,
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I love working with educators, so that's number
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one. And going backwards, you know, I grew up in a family that
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instilled Jewish social justice values and with the idea that we
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should leave the world a better place than we found it. And so I
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was engaged in environmental work. After we left Kenya, I did
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a gap year in Israel, Palestine, I studied abroad in Indonesia,
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and then after college, I wanted to save the rain forest. You
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know, like any young idealist, and lived in South America and
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Ecuador for eight years, working with environmental organizations
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in the rain forest, I had this light bulb moment when I
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realized that my gifts and my strengths was working with
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students, and that if I could bring students to the Amazon, to
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the rain forest, that they would see that education is a powerful
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tool for social change. That's what brought me here, and I have
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been working in student Global Social Justice educational
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programming for the last 20 or so years, and what I found the
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most helpful for me in my career, as I was working with
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students doing these immersive project based travel programs,
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was Ken. Connecting with other educators like you all to learn
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best practices and get that support to do this work, because
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sometimes it can feel really lonely as an educator doing
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something a little bit different. And when I worked in
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higher ed and when I was at Sidwell, connecting with other
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educators was the way that helped me grow in my career and
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my profession, and I wanted to be able to give that back
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through I seen the Independent Schools, experiential education
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network and help other educators Connect. I'm a connector. I like
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connecting people. How
Hiram Cuevas:
much of an influence did your degree in
Hiram Cuevas:
anthropology play in this journey anthropology gave
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me the framework to think about
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different cultures and how people connect across
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difference. And so understanding that the way culture is
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developed in Kenya or the way that culture is developed in the
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United States just gave me a framework for thinking about
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cross cultural communication and so that inclusive and openness
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in Isee, and I think is grounded in my background in
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anthropology.
Hiram Cuevas:
I was an anthropology minor, so I
Hiram Cuevas:
couldn't resist asking the question, great
Unknown:
love anthropology.
Bill Stites:
So for a number of years here at MKA, for well over
Bill Stites:
a decade, I ran an Irish studies program with our Upper School.
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At the time our Upper School head of the department, and we
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spent an entire semester working with them and teaching with
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them, and led into this two week study around the country. We
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spent two weeks traveling abroad. We met with Ivan Cooper,
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who was head of the Bloody Sunday March up in Derry. We
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studied and worked with people in their various migration
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centers, so on and so forth. And one of the things that we did in
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part of that, the reason I was there, was we traveled around
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with laptops, digital video cameras, digital cameras, and we
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documented things. We recorded things. We recorded interviews.
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We did a lot of work, both in collecting resources as well as
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developing resources to, again, as you're saying, to share,
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connect, to get the word out. And that was probably in the
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early 2000s that we were doing that, given we're a technology
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based podcast here, what does the use of technology look like
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now within the context of the work that you're doing with the
Bill Stites:
organization there. As
Shoshanna Shumka:
you mentioned, Bill, it's so important to
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document that work, to demonstrate student learning,
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and there's some great partners that we work with. Un ruler is
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one of them. They are a platform where it's an online journal
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where students can document their learning, can share
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photographs and reflect on some of the learning, whether it's a
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travel program in Ireland or, you know, program in New York
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City, students document their learning. I have to say that,
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going back to the old school, notebook is still a piece of
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technology, right? Like a pen and paper is technology, and
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sometimes it's also really powerful to step away from
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digital technology and use analog technology and have
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students write in a journal reflect using longhand so
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there's different ways, depending on the situation.
Hiram Cuevas:
I'm a huge proponent of journaling. I
Hiram Cuevas:
really do love seeing what students can produce in recent
Hiram Cuevas:
years, because we talk about post COVID frequently on the
Hiram Cuevas:
pod. Have you noticed a decline in the ability for students to
Hiram Cuevas:
be able to journal in the way that they used to do pre COVID
Hiram Cuevas:
as a result of them being so involved with digital
Hiram Cuevas:
technologies that it makes it more difficult to actually
Hiram Cuevas:
capture what they're thinking about. I think
Shoshanna Shumka:
students, when given the opportunity to write
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and journal and given a designated space and time away
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from a device, they're just fine at journaling. I think it's
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really about making the time and space to allow them that time to
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journal and to sit with their thoughts and to reflect. So I
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think they can still do it if we provide that opportunity for
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them.
Ashley Cross:
So Shoshana Isee runs a couple of really
Ashley Cross:
interesting programs. I kind of shift us for just a minute and
Ashley Cross:
talk about your winter and summer institutes. So first of
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all, can you give us an overview of those and tell us a little
Ashley Cross:
bit about what makes those special? And then I'd like to
Ashley Cross:
tell the listeners about my connection
Unknown:
with that. So we run Deep Learning Institutes.
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We run a summer institute for classroom
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teachers and a winter Institute for program directors. And I
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love Ashley that you were with us in Colorado at the Dawson
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School last summer. And what's unique. Think about them is that
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we learn about experiential education by doing experiential
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education. So it's less talking, less sage on a stage, and more
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guide on the side, and we are engaged in practicing the Kolb
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experiential learning cycle, reflecting on it, building
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relationships, building community, and getting out in
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the place, wherever we are at the institute, either in
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Boulder, Colorado, where we'll be in June, and Baltimore,
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Maryland, where we'll be next January, we experience
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experiential education in action by being in the student's shoes
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and getting to experience what a student might experience. That a
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student might experience.
Ashley Cross:
That's very cool. So now Shoshana had invited
Ashley Cross:
Atlas to help facilitate one of these, and so they have one on
Ashley Cross:
maker spaces, and so I was there as the CO facilitator, and it
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was my first experience with Isee, and I was really excited
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to be there. Jeff and I had spent all year kind of prepping
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for it and planning we had touch base, but I have to tell you,
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Shoshana, when we got there, one of the first things that we did
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was we went outside, which I loved. It was a beautiful
Ashley Cross:
morning at Dawson, and we got in a circle, and Jeff was standing
Ashley Cross:
next to me, and he took his shoes off, and I kind of looked
Ashley Cross:
at him, and I was not quite prepared for this, exactly what
Ashley Cross:
I was getting into. And then I looked around, and Jeff was not
Ashley Cross:
the only one that took his shoes off. Everybody took their shoes
Ashley Cross:
off, and they had their feet in the grass. And so I was like,
Ashley Cross:
Okay, I'm in. I'm doing this. And so it was just a lovely
Ashley Cross:
experience. It was a really reflective way to start the
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morning. Literally ground it in the grass. It was a beautiful
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place. We had a wonderful cohort that went through that
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experience with us. But then the other thing, in addition to our
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learning in the small group in the maker space, with this very
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hands on, we came together as a larger group, and we did again,
Ashley Cross:
more about the cold learning cycle and more about
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experiential learning and how they could take it back to their
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schools. But then we also had the opportunity to explore the
Ashley Cross:
area, and that was really fascinating, too. Through this
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process, you guys took us up into, you know, the mountain
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area we were talking about conservation, we did a hike, and
Ashley Cross:
we actually went with a local expert who led us through. And
Ashley Cross:
it was very powerful. So I appreciate the opportunity to
Ashley Cross:
get involved in that. It was something that I really enjoyed.
Ashley Cross:
Can you tell us a little bit more for our listeners that
Ashley Cross:
maybe aren't familiar with this? I think this is a great
Ashley Cross:
takeaway, more about that colds learning cycle. What is that?
Ashley Cross:
Why is that so central to the institutes?
Shoshanna Shumka:
Yeah, thanks, actually, and I love that you
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were there, creating the inaugural Makerspace pedagogy
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cohort, and going back just reflecting what you said. I
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mean, the institutes are soulful experiences where we invite
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vulnerability, and yes, we invited everyone to take their
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shoes off and feel nature, and we do circle up in the morning
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to model what you might do with your students. How do you ground
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your students in nature and in place? So I love that you were
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able to experience that. At iseem, we draw on the Kolb
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experiential learning cycle, which was developed by a couple,
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David and Alice Kolb, who were psychologists, and they
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researched and observed how people learn, what is their
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cognitive process as they're learning, and what they realize
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is that people learn through experience, and that this
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learning is not linear, it's cyclical. And so they describe
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the cold experiential learning cycle, which consists of direct
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experience. There's an experience that you have, like
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standing in the graph that could be an experience, you reflect on
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that experience, you analyze it, and then experiment, you apply
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it to future learning. And I think that is really the
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essential piece, is taking your newly learned knowledge and
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applying it to real world situations, so that reinforces
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your understanding. So I'm sure, as technology educators, you do
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this all the time, right? Students learn and then they
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apply it to another situation. How might this work in a
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different application? So there are many models. It's not just
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the Cole of experiential learning cycle. We find it
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useful, but you might find that there are other similar models
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that explain how people learn, the scientific method, the
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writing process, the design thinking process. There are lots
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of ways to describe these processes, but we've stuck to
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the cold cycle. And I actually have a funny story one of our
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schools, one of our member schools in Texas, who we did
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some consulting work with for a full year, and we did a lot of
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programs and workshops and professional learning with their
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faculty. They have embraced David and Alice's cold
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experiential learning cycle, and they've turned it into a verb.
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So they say, Are you Cole being. Like, are you holding that in
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your classroom? And I love how they're constantly thinking,
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Okay, have we included the entire learning cycle in our
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lesson planning? Because doing one without the other, you don't
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get the complete learning if you reflect, but you haven't had an
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experience, there's really nothing to reflect on. But if
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you try to do the abstract conceptualization, or the
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knowledge building piece, without the students have any
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experience of it, it's hard for them to really absorb that and
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really understand what the lesson is about.
Hiram Cuevas:
Most of the programs, I believe, as I've
Hiram Cuevas:
read, are partnering with teachers. Is there a student
Hiram Cuevas:
component as well? Do you have a blended environment as well.
Shoshanna Shumka:
We are full professional development,
Shoshanna Shumka:
working with teachers. Yep, we work with teachers, educators,
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administrators, heads of school, academic deans, directors of
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global learning, outdoor education. We are a professional
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network. But I will say a caveat to that is in that networking.
Shoshanna Shumka:
Sometimes schools connect and have their students work
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together, right? So, if they're in New Jersey, and they find
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other schools that are doing sustainability, and they have an
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Earth Day conference, you know, a student led Climate Change
Shoshanna Shumka:
Conference, then the students will come together. And
Shoshanna Shumka:
oftentimes they make those connections through Isee, one
Bill Stites:
of the things I'm actually curious about, just to
Bill Stites:
hear a little bit more about, because, to be completely frank,
Bill Stites:
I don't know anything about, is the work that Atlas did with
Bill Stites:
you, when you were talking about about that inaugural work around
Bill Stites:
the makerspace and those areas, what did that look like within
Bill Stites:
the context of the work that you're doing? Ashley,
Unknown:
do you want to do that one sure I can start. So
Ashley Cross:
I think this began with a conversation between
Ashley Cross:
Kristina and Shoshana, and my work for my dissertation was
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actually an exploratory study on maker spaces, and so they looped
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me into the conversation. So I spent, like I said, about a year
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planning with Jeff, who runs the makerspace there at the Dawson
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school. And again, we were looking at, what does this
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experience look like when we bring people together? So it was
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really interesting, because there's not a whole lot of
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programming for people who run maker spaces. There have been
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events like constructing modern knowledge in the past that have
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been really addressed that constructivism approach to
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making in schools. But this was a really cool thing that focused
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a lot on the logistics too. You know, we have all of these
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projects. How are you going to organize these even solving,
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like, issues of, how are you going to store all of these
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student projects that happen in the space? So a lot of the
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conversations that was bringing these people together that are
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much like tech leaders, very isolated in their own roles at
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their school, and bringing them together and giving them space
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to connect, to talk about really innovative projects and work
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that they're doing, again, community partnerships and
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incorporating more of professional development for
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them. How can they bring in this reflective Cole cycle, things
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like that? So we really set the stage for what that could look
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like in future years of the institute. It kind of set up a
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framework bill, I would say, for what participation looks like
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for a makerspace cohort within the icing Summer Institute. What
Shoshanna Shumka:
I loved about it was framing Makerspace as a
Shoshanna Shumka:
pedagogy, and connecting that learning to the cold,
Shoshanna Shumka:
experiential learning cycle, so that the reflective practice, so
Shoshanna Shumka:
that tying it to, you know, students existing knowledge, or
Shoshanna Shumka:
how can they apply it to real world situations, maybe the
Shoshanna Shumka:
maker space is connected to a community based organization
Shoshanna Shumka:
that's looking for a solution for something, and so doing
Shoshanna Shumka:
something in the classroom that can then be used in the real
Shoshanna Shumka:
world. I really love that connection. And the other thing
Shoshanna Shumka:
that I loved about the makerspace educators cohort is
Shoshanna Shumka:
that it's also part of the holistic Summer Institute for
Shoshanna Shumka:
experiential education, you know, pedagogy and practice in
Shoshanna Shumka:
the classroom. And so there were math teachers, science teachers,
Shoshanna Shumka:
English teachers, global languages, history, etc. And so
Shoshanna Shumka:
while there's some time spent in your specific discipline group,
Shoshanna Shumka:
there's also time for interacting with everyone. And
Shoshanna Shumka:
so there's spaces for someone who's in the maker space to
Shoshanna Shumka:
connect with the English teacher and see, you know, how could you
Shoshanna Shumka:
do English and makerspace, or how could you connect history
Shoshanna Shumka:
and Makerspace pedagogy? So I really loved that it had that
Shoshanna Shumka:
interdisciplinary component, as well as time to revise a lesson
Shoshanna Shumka:
to think about, you know, how you might connect this to your
Shoshanna Shumka:
curriculum? And I saw the educators playing, building
Shoshanna Shumka:
things and feeling what it feels like to be in a student's shoes
Shoshanna Shumka:
to what it's like to be a student to then bring that
Shoshanna Shumka:
feeling back into RE, energized and inspired teaching.
Hiram Cuevas:
What's interesting is on this pod, we often talk
Hiram Cuevas:
about AI, and I'm curious. Do you see this pedagogical
Hiram Cuevas:
approach facilitating AI use in a practical sense for our
Hiram Cuevas:
schools that is experiential? I
Shoshanna Shumka:
think that AI can be really useful in a lot of
Shoshanna Shumka:
different settings at schools. I'm all for it. If schools want
Shoshanna Shumka:
to create AI policies and teachers can use it to come up
Shoshanna Shumka:
with the rubric and help lesson plan designing. And I also see
Shoshanna Shumka:
experiential education as a bit of an antidote to full AI
Shoshanna Shumka:
reliance. And so when I'm talking about analog, when I'm
Shoshanna Shumka:
talking about going outside the classroom, I'm talking about
Shoshanna Shumka:
human relationships. I want us to also embrace the human
Shoshanna Shumka:
aspects and help students learn how to talk to people who are
Shoshanna Shumka:
different than they are, or work collaboratively in teams to
Shoshanna Shumka:
build their leadership skills. And this is what experiential
Shoshanna Shumka:
education does when done well, it really emphasizes the human
Shoshanna Shumka:
parts of learning. So AI is fine, and let's also make sure
Shoshanna Shumka:
that we get students out into the world and that we're more
Shoshanna Shumka:
human.
Unknown:
So the pedagogy
Hiram Cuevas:
is really a giant pause button to really make sure
Hiram Cuevas:
that we get the kids outside and doing things. I love it.
Hiram Cuevas:
Absolutely
Ashley Cross:
love it. I think that'll be interesting to see
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how these tools continue to evolve over time. So my husband,
Ashley Cross:
he's one that has all the latest shiny things. He's got the meta
Ashley Cross:
Ray Ban glasses, and so last week, he keeps playing around
Ashley Cross:
with it, and he's like, Oh, look, in real time, it will
Ashley Cross:
translate in my ears, if someone is speaking to me in Spanish,
Ashley Cross:
and it will tell me what they're saying. And it does this for
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multiple languages. So, you know, maybe there's tools like
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this that can help break down language barriers and help us
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really have more human connections, where the device
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kind of disappears a little bit into the background. But I'm
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with Russell, you know, it's all got to be done in a very
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intentional way. Shoshana, I wanted to ask you, too, for our
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listeners, if they're thinking about practical takeaways from
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this podcast, and they're saying, Wow, okay, this all
Ashley Cross:
sounds really interesting, how might we bring some of this to
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our school, maybe at a small scale? Do you have any advice
Ashley Cross:
for our listeners how they can start taking advantage of maybe
Ashley Cross:
some local community partners.
Shoshanna Shumka:
You know, I think most of our schools have
Shoshanna Shumka:
in our mission public service or being good stewards and good
Shoshanna Shumka:
members of our community. So community engagement, service
Shoshanna Shumka:
learning, this is one of the strong pillars of experiential
Shoshanna Shumka:
education, and there are often nonprofit partners that are
Shoshanna Shumka:
serving in the community, that schools can partner with really
Shoshanna Shumka:
easily. We want to make sure that it is a mutually beneficial
Shoshanna Shumka:
partnership, that there's equitable exchange of knowledge
Shoshanna Shumka:
and resources. But there are many, many nonprofits out there
Shoshanna Shumka:
who are willing and able to partner with schools and
Shoshanna Shumka:
students can contribute their time or unique skills at that
Shoshanna Shumka:
organization. So, for example, students might be able to help
Shoshanna Shumka:
with marketing or web design, you know, using their computer
Shoshanna Shumka:
programming skills or social media marketing to support an
Shoshanna Shumka:
organization that might be serving in the community and
Shoshanna Shumka:
support their mission. That way, that's great.
Ashley Cross:
So kind of shifting again, you guys have
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launched something brand new. So can you tell us a little bit
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about the capitalist Institute? What that is, how it came about.
Ashley Cross:
What are you guys working on right now? This is our first
Shoshanna Shumka:
new institute that we've developed in 10
Shoshanna Shumka:
years. So it's really exciting, and so grateful to the EE Ford
Shoshanna Shumka:
Foundation for giving us the seed money to develop this new
Shoshanna Shumka:
institute. What we heard from our member schools is that they
Shoshanna Shumka:
wanted more support in bringing change to their institutions.
Shoshanna Shumka:
Change is hard, and we also know that this kind of learning, this
Shoshanna Shumka:
place based, whole student, environmental, focused, world
Shoshanna Shumka:
focused, global learning, focused education, is really
Shoshanna Shumka:
impactful, and that is what our students need to thrive in this
Shoshanna Shumka:
world today, and it's really hard to make those changes in
Shoshanna Shumka:
traditional schools. So our members asked us for an
Shoshanna Shumka:
institute like this, the catalyst, which is a spark, a
Shoshanna Shumka:
bringing a new idea to a school with a leadership team equipped
Shoshanna Shumka:
with the skills and ability to implement these changes. So it's
Shoshanna Shumka:
not only going to be talking about deep learning, like a deep
Shoshanna Shumka:
learning intimate retreat, about experiential education. Pete.
Shoshanna Shumka:
Aggie, we're bringing it into the classroom, right? So we're
Shoshanna Shumka:
talking about assessment. How do you assess the learning? How do
Shoshanna Shumka:
you build faculty buy in? And we are going to have a whole unit
Shoshanna Shumka:
on leadership development, and you're developing your
Shoshanna Shumka:
leadership skills. And how do you as a leadership team, bring
Shoshanna Shumka:
everyone on board. Everyone's happy about this. Everyone is
Shoshanna Shumka:
excited and willing to do something a little bit
Shoshanna Shumka:
different. So one of the main differences at the catalyst
Shoshanna Shumka:
Institute, not only is it smaller and we bring in outside
Shoshanna Shumka:
expertise on these issues, we have a year long coaching cohort
Shoshanna Shumka:
to support the school leaders in implementing their action plan
Shoshanna Shumka:
that they come up with during the catalyst.
Bill Stites:
What are some of the things that you look for in
Bill Stites:
schools, or you talk to about schools to making this
Bill Stites:
relationship between you and them successful? Like, what does
Bill Stites:
a school need to do to set themselves up for success in the
Bill Stites:
work and what you're doing.
Unknown:
We're looking for schools
Shoshanna Shumka:
that are open minded and committed to doing
Shoshanna Shumka:
things a little bit differently. You know, experiential education
Shoshanna Shumka:
can be messy. I mean, you see this in the maker space. So
Shoshanna Shumka:
being open to the messiness and also having your school culture,
Shoshanna Shumka:
having the people both at the top, the upper level
Shoshanna Shumka:
administration, and everyone who's actually doing the
Shoshanna Shumka:
learning on the ground, the teachers that everyone is
Shoshanna Shumka:
everyone is a strong word. Let's say that there is a mass of
Shoshanna Shumka:
people who are willing to try something new, and so that
Shoshanna Shumka:
openness and willingness to try something new,
Ashley Cross:
I think that's really, really fascinating,
Ashley Cross:
because we see the same thing here at Atlas a lot of people,
Ashley Cross:
even when they go back and they get, like, advanced degrees,
Ashley Cross:
let's say that they've gone back and they have a master's degree.
Ashley Cross:
A lot of times they actually don't have leadership training.
Ashley Cross:
A lot of these things talk about theory, but when you get down to
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people, it's a lot messier. And so having cohorts like that and
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groups that can kind of guide them where they can have
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conversations, it's really, really important. We do that
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here at Atlas a lot, too, through the Leadership
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Institute, but also just through our content and programming we
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try to provide. So I definitely see that need as well. I'm
Ashley Cross:
really glad you guys are doing that. Can you tell us a little
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bit more about what you're excited about for this upcoming
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year? We've kind of just almost wrapped it an academic school
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year, and we're looking ahead at your programming, your different
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things for icing, and it doesn't even have to be in the short
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term. But Shoshana, what are you most excited about for I seen s
Ashley Cross:
future?
Shoshanna Shumka:
Well, I love this time when we come up to the
Shoshanna Shumka:
end of the academic year and we try to practice what we preach.
Shoshanna Shumka:
So we'll take the time over the summer to reflect, reflect on
Shoshanna Shumka:
what went well, reflect on what we might do differently next
Shoshanna Shumka:
year. And so we look at the survey feedback from our
Shoshanna Shumka:
attendees, and we do take some time over the summer to think
Shoshanna Shumka:
about what we might do. I am so excited about the catalyst
Shoshanna Shumka:
institute that is number one, launching this in October, and
Shoshanna Shumka:
I'm very excited to see where that goes and to see the
Shoshanna Shumka:
transformation that that will inspire in schools, and I am
Shoshanna Shumka:
really excited about the possibility of venturing beyond
Shoshanna Shumka:
independent schools. I come from the higher ed world, and I know
Shoshanna Shumka:
that experiential education is a pedagogy that works well for all
Shoshanna Shumka:
students, and someday, I really hope that we're able to build
Shoshanna Shumka:
our network and expand and bring schools in Beyond The
Shoshanna Shumka:
Independent School world, so that all students have the
Shoshanna Shumka:
opportunity to participate in these transformative
Shoshanna Shumka:
experiences.
Unknown:
We've
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been talking about looking ahead a little bit, but
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just a second ago, we talked about management, and actually,
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let's kind of look back. If you could give advice to your
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younger self or a new leader just starting out again, we
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mentioned there's many of those out there, not only in the tech
Ashley Cross:
world, like here at Atlas, but also across divisions at
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independent schools. What advice do you have for somebody that's
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getting started
Shoshanna Shumka:
as I mentioned the beginning, the thing that's
Shoshanna Shumka:
helped me the most in my leadership is to find other
Shoshanna Shumka:
people in my profession who do similar work, so people that I
Shoshanna Shumka:
can build community with and share my struggles and my
Shoshanna Shumka:
challenges and also share wins and successes with that for me
Shoshanna Shumka:
is so important in my career, and seeking out professional
Shoshanna Shumka:
learning opportunities, going to the institutes, going to the
Shoshanna Shumka:
conferences, connecting with folks. I found some of my best
Shoshanna Shumka:
friends through going to some of these networks. And I even co
Shoshanna Shumka:
authored a book with someone from, you know, a different
Shoshanna Shumka:
school that we had met through these professional networks. But
Shoshanna Shumka:
I would say, advice. Thanks to future leaders, is remembering
Shoshanna Shumka:
that there are so many different ways to be a leader, leading
Shoshanna Shumka:
with my heart is the way that I lead. And I think the world
Shoshanna Shumka:
needs more leaders who lead with their heart.
Hiram Cuevas:
So Shauna, in the spirit of creating these
Hiram Cuevas:
relationships, is there a network specifically that
Hiram Cuevas:
someone who may not be a member of ice scene who wants to get
Hiram Cuevas:
connected. So for technology people, it has been Twitter for
Hiram Cuevas:
many, many years. It's now moved on to ised, and now there are
Hiram Cuevas:
all sorts of different venues for us to communicate with one
Hiram Cuevas:
another. Is there a specific one that someone could get started,
Hiram Cuevas:
so that they get the exposure, and then they can perhaps get in
Hiram Cuevas:
contact with the icing community.
Shoshanna Shumka:
I think the irony here is that we're not
Shoshanna Shumka:
always the techie folks. The biggest platform I see
Shoshanna Shumka:
experiential educators on is LinkedIn and connecting on
Shoshanna Shumka:
LinkedIn and sharing ideas. What have you seen that works in your
Shoshanna Shumka:
programming on LinkedIn? And I seen we have a Google group, and
Shoshanna Shumka:
that's one of the ways that our members communicate, is we just
Shoshanna Shumka:
say, Hey, what are you doing for this? And then 10 people will
Shoshanna Shumka:
respond and say, Oh, well, we use this, and it's pretty low
Shoshanna Shumka:
tech, but it's a great way for our members to connect. So look
Shoshanna Shumka:
for other experiential educators on LinkedIn, and maybe think
Shoshanna Shumka:
about joining Essie.
Hiram Cuevas:
So would that Google group be available to non
Hiram Cuevas:
members as well? It's
Ashley Cross:
only for members. Okay, thank you. I mean, I think
Ashley Cross:
you shared a lot, and for a school that's just starting its
Ashley Cross:
journey on experiential education. You kind of talked a
Ashley Cross:
little bit about where they can find some of those people. Any
Ashley Cross:
other first steps that you'd recommend for them? Let's
Unknown:
just talk to
Shoshanna Shumka:
another school about this. And they were
Shoshanna Shumka:
saying, Yeah, we'd like to do more experiential education. I
Shoshanna Shumka:
said, Well, how do you define experiential education? And they
Shoshanna Shumka:
were like, oh, yeah, we just talk about it, but we never
Shoshanna Shumka:
really define it. So I think a first step would be as a school
Shoshanna Shumka:
community, to define experiential education on for
Shoshanna Shumka:
yourself. What do you mean when you say experiential education?
Shoshanna Shumka:
And it can even be a collaborative process where
Shoshanna Shumka:
people come up with that definition together. You can
Shoshanna Shumka:
pull from many different ones. We, I see and had spent some
Shoshanna Shumka:
time coming up with our own definition of experiential
Shoshanna Shumka:
education, but that could be a fun first step. When I imagine
Shoshanna Shumka:
these kinds of group processes, I picture flip charts and
Shoshanna Shumka:
markers or writing on the whiteboard and doing a
Shoshanna Shumka:
collaborative process. But looking at those resources,
Shoshanna Shumka:
looking at I seen resources, there's a lot of other
Shoshanna Shumka:
organizations dedicated to specific strands of experiential
Shoshanna Shumka:
learning, so global learning, or community based learning,
Shoshanna Shumka:
service learning. There's different organizations. There's
Shoshanna Shumka:
some just dedicated to outdoor education. So I would check out
Shoshanna Shumka:
different organizations and see what's the best fit for your
Shoshanna Shumka:
school. Shoshana.
Ashley Cross:
This has been a really, really fun conversation.
Ashley Cross:
I hope people have learned a lot about experiential education,
Ashley Cross:
maybe what it is, how they can bring it to their school, a
Ashley Cross:
little bit more about the cold cycle. And again, another just
Ashley Cross:
really fantastic organization that serves the space icing. So
Ashley Cross:
where can people go to learn more about icing or to connect
Ashley Cross:
with you? You can go
Shoshanna Shumka:
to our website. It's I seen info.com
Shoshanna Shumka:
you can email our general staff email for general information
Shoshanna Shumka:
staff. At, I seen info.com or you can email me. My direct
Shoshanna Shumka:
email is Shoshana. That's two n's. At, I seen info.com I feel
Shoshanna Shumka:
funny having a.com URL because I seen as a 501, c3, nonprofit
Shoshanna Shumka:
organization. And I don't know, 20 years ago when the founders
Shoshanna Shumka:
created the art.com domain. I just, you know, when I started
Shoshanna Shumka:
seven years ago, I just didn't been too busy building is seen
Shoshanna Shumka:
to change the URL over to a.org but we are a nonprofit
Shoshanna Shumka:
organization. It's
Bill Stites:
interesting to call that out, because I looked at it
Bill Stites:
as well and I thought the same thing. I was like, that's
Bill Stites:
interesting. I know one of these
Unknown:
days I'll change it. Well, we will be sure
Ashley Cross:
to include all of those things in our show notes.
Ashley Cross:
Shoshana, thank you so much for coming on with us today and for
Ashley Cross:
sharing with the Atlas community. We appreciate you.
Ashley Cross:
Thank you
Shoshanna Shumka:
so much for having me. Really an honor.
Peter Frank:
This has been talking technology with Atlas,
Peter Frank:
produced by the Association of Technology Leaders in
Peter Frank:
Independent Schools. For more information about Atlas and
Peter Frank:
Atlas membership, please visit theatlas.org if you enjoyed this
Peter Frank:
discussion, please subscribe, leave a review and share this
Peter Frank:
podcast with your colleagues in the independent school
Peter Frank:
community. Thank you for listening. You.
