Raising Digital Citizens: A Conversation with ISTE's Richard Culatta
Hear from ISTE's CEO Richard Culatta as he shares his unique professional journey and vision for the future of education technology. Learn how the merger of ISTE and ASCD aims to better support teachers and students through innovative practices. Discover Culatta's predictions for 2025, including the importance of prioritizing the student experience in school design.
- International Society for Technology in Education (ISTE)
- ASCD - professional development for educators at all stages of their careers
- Digital for Good: Raising Kids to Thrive in an Online World by Richard Culatta - framework for preparing kids to be successful in a digital world
- Coalition of Leading Education Organizations Introduces Five Quality Indicators for Edtech and AI Products, ISTE press release
- Pica AI, AI photo enhancer
Transcript
Peter Frank:
Phil, welcome to Talking Technology with ATLIS,
Peter Frank:
the show that plugs you into the important topics and trends for
Peter Frank:
technology leaders all through a unique Independent School lens.
Peter Frank:
We'll hear stories from technology directors and other
Peter Frank:
special guests from the Independent School community,
Peter Frank:
and provide you with focused learning and deep dive topics.
Peter Frank:
And now please welcome your host. Kristina Lewellen,
Christina Lewellen:
Hello everyone, and welcome back to
Christina Lewellen:
talking technology with Atlas. I'm Kristina Lewellen, the
Christina Lewellen:
President and CEO of the Association of Technology
Christina Lewellen:
Leaders in Independent Schools.
Bill Stites:
And I am Bill Stites, the Director of
Bill Stites:
Technology at Montclair Kimberly Academy in Montclair, New
Bill Stites:
Jersey.
Hiram Cuevas:
And I'm Hiram Cuevas, the Director of
Hiram Cuevas:
Information Systems and Academic Technology at St Christopher
Hiram Cuevas:
school. Hey,
Peter Frank:
I am Peter Frank. I'm the Senior Director of
Peter Frank:
certification and operations for Atlas.
Christina Lewellen:
Hello, gentlemen. How's everybody
Unknown:
today? Excellent, glorious. Counting down the
Unknown:
hours. Our
Christina Lewellen:
intro was a little different today because
Christina Lewellen:
the Atlas Board of Directors decided earlier this week that
Christina Lewellen:
my title would change to be more reflective of what other
Christina Lewellen:
associations in The Independent School world have as the title.
Christina Lewellen:
So I transitioned from executive director to President and CEO.
Christina Lewellen:
So nothing really happened. I
Bill Stites:
was wondering what was going on. I was like,
Bill Stites:
seriously, how many times have we done this and you're messing
Bill Stites:
it up? What's going on?
Christina Lewellen:
No, I mean, really, all it meant was that I
Christina Lewellen:
just put on the same clothes and showed up at the same office the
Christina Lewellen:
next day. Nothing much changed, but that is my new title,
Unknown:
the big ring that you now have to kiss Exactly. We'll
Unknown:
get down and kneel down
Christina Lewellen:
before you Well, I will sit on my throne.
Christina Lewellen:
We're doing our intro today with Peter Frank. I normally start
Christina Lewellen:
out and ask you guys a couple questions see how you're doing.
Christina Lewellen:
I asked my staff for recommendations on what I should
Christina Lewellen:
ask Bill in Hiram today, and Peter came in hot with a good
Christina Lewellen:
question, but I refuse to ask it, so I'm just gonna go ahead
Christina Lewellen:
and turn the mike over. Peter. Instant,
Peter Frank:
as soon as I saw the question from Kristina of
Peter Frank:
what do I really want to know from Bill and Hiram, having
Peter Frank:
heard all of these podcasts, all of the various topics we've
Peter Frank:
covered, I mean, you both share so much expertise and knowledge
Peter Frank:
about all these different things. And so as soon as she
Peter Frank:
asked, I thought, if I'm in a confrontation on water, for
Peter Frank:
example, a boat, would you risk using fire to battle the
Peter Frank:
zombies, or is it better to reserve that only in case
Peter Frank:
everything else fails?
Bill Stites:
No, I'm not using fire, right? Fire is a last
Bill Stites:
resort, because that is going to damage you as much as it is
Bill Stites:
going to right damage the zombies, because in that sense,
Bill Stites:
you need simply distance from them, and you need to be able to
Bill Stites:
somehow get them into the water. Because they're not swimming,
Bill Stites:
they're kind of sinking at that
Christina Lewellen:
point. Can zombies swim? No, no,
Bill Stites:
zombies don't
Hiram Cuevas:
swim. And then there's a little bit of wisdom,
Hiram Cuevas:
if you remember the scene in Jaws when the lady shot the
Hiram Cuevas:
flare gun after she used gasoline to put it on the shark
Hiram Cuevas:
and she ended up blowing up the boat. Amateur hour, we always
Hiram Cuevas:
have a melee weapon on hand right
Bill Stites:
in the game that I play religiously, which is The
Bill Stites:
Walking Dead no man's land. You have different types of
Bill Stites:
fighters. You'd want to be in your bruiser mode, because you
Bill Stites:
have your assault team, you have your ranged weapons team, then
Bill Stites:
you have your melee weapon team, and then you have your bruisers.
Bill Stites:
And this is where you would employ your bruisers, those with
Bill Stites:
bats, those with things that are going to just not necessarily
Bill Stites:
get at them in the same ways it's going to get them off
Bill Stites:
you're you're teeing them up, golf clubs. I mean, you could
Bill Stites:
use golf clubs at that point.
Hiram Cuevas:
So I'm going to reference World War Z for you,
Hiram Cuevas:
Christina. The actual weapon that you might want to have in a
Hiram Cuevas:
boat is the Lobo.
Bill Stites:
Oh, the Lobo. Yes, I remember them talking about
Bill Stites:
the Lobo.
Christina Lewellen:
I don't know what a Lobo is. Chat GPT, what
Christina Lewellen:
is a Lobo? We
Bill Stites:
can get Nicole Furlonge on this call, and she
Bill Stites:
can explain all about the Lobo from their in depth reading of
Bill Stites:
that.
Unknown:
So essentially, the Lobo is short for the
Unknown:
lobotomizer. Oh,
Christina Lewellen:
that's terrible. We're
Bill Stites:
talking about dead people to begin with. We're
Bill Stites:
talking about zombies. I mean, we got to put this in context.
Bill Stites:
What
Christina Lewellen:
if there's zombies already on the boat, and
Christina Lewellen:
all your weapons are gone and you can swim? So do you then
Christina Lewellen:
burn the boat so that they drown and then you swim away? You're
Christina Lewellen:
in the ocean, the middle of the ocean. Well, maybe not the
Christina Lewellen:
middle of the ocean,
Bill Stites:
yeah. I mean, are we on a pleasure cruise here? Is
Bill Stites:
this like a center console boat, or are we in like a yacht? Like,
Bill Stites:
seriously, like, Hiram and I, you know, we're on small boats
Bill Stites:
here, so we're, like, we've got oz, because we could probably
Bill Stites:
use Oz, because that's our level. That's how you have to
Bill Stites:
think, maybe a pedal bone, that's our level. We're not at
Bill Stites:
the price. Resident CEO level, where you're on much larger
Bill Stites:
boats. Now you've got the new title, so you've got these new
Bill Stites:
expectations for how you might be traveling. So you're thinking
Bill Stites:
bigger boats than Hiram and I.
Christina Lewellen:
There are no bigger boats. No,
Hiram Cuevas:
the ring bill may actually be a Green Lantern
Hiram Cuevas:
ring. Maybe she was selected. Yes,
Unknown:
true, Peter,
Christina Lewellen:
you started this. I
Peter Frank:
know. I wish everyone could see like, this
Peter Frank:
isn't a video podcast, but these are the moments that I really
Peter Frank:
lament that we don't have a video podcast because for our
Peter Frank:
listeners, we can all see each other. And when Bill and Hiram
Peter Frank:
start going off on zombies, the facial expressions of Christina,
Peter Frank:
the body language. Sometimes she'll just get up and we'd
Peter Frank:
like, we don't even know where she went, like, she just leaves.
Peter Frank:
It's gold. We could do a whole video montage of the reactions,
Peter Frank:
because it's priceless.
Hiram Cuevas:
We're gonna sell out another Atlas member,
Hiram Cuevas:
though. But it's really important that people understand
Hiram Cuevas:
that the quiet Barry Cole Meyer, oh yes, is also a
Unknown:
huge zombie fan.
Christina Lewellen:
Why you got a Chuck Berry underneath the
Christina Lewellen:
bus? The zombie laden boat? That's not fair. He's not even
Christina Lewellen:
here to defend himself.
Unknown:
He would jump in.
Hiram Cuevas:
He'd be on this so in Orlando, he walks up to our
Hiram Cuevas:
group. Now, Jason Ramson is also a zombie afficionado. First
Hiram Cuevas:
question we ask him, all right, new hotel, how many exits for
Hiram Cuevas:
the zombie apocalypse? And within 30 seconds, there he
Hiram Cuevas:
goes. Looks around four and he's spot on.
Christina Lewellen:
Oh my gosh. This just goes to show the
Christina Lewellen:
mistake that I made number one in allowing Peter Frank to come
Christina Lewellen:
ask you anything
Peter Frank:
100% we'll check the stats. We'll look at the
Peter Frank:
analytics. This will be the highest rated, highest listened
Peter Frank:
episode, all
Christina Lewellen:
right. Well, before we let Peter go, you've
Christina Lewellen:
been observing us quietly in the background. You're usually in
Christina Lewellen:
stealth producer mode, and you've been a huge instrumental
Christina Lewellen:
part of the success of this podcast. You keep things running
Christina Lewellen:
smoothly. You yell at us when our audio is not good. So since
Christina Lewellen:
we have you here for a quick minute, has there been any
Christina Lewellen:
favorite episodes that you can recall, any of our guests that
Christina Lewellen:
you particularly enjoyed, or what have you thought of this
Christina Lewellen:
journey so far? I certainly didn't think we'd be logging 50
Christina Lewellen:
plus episodes in a year, but here we are. So it's been just
Christina Lewellen:
about a year since we really started rolling with this. Any
Christina Lewellen:
thoughts or reflections as our behind the scenes Wizard of Oz?
Christina Lewellen:
Yeah, knock
Peter Frank:
on wood. When we first talked about the pace of
Peter Frank:
the podcast, when you were instructing us we're doing this
Peter Frank:
every week, there was definitely a question like, Man, I don't
Peter Frank:
know. I mean, we definitely have the right people involved, and
Peter Frank:
it seems like we have a like, a deep well from which we can pull
Peter Frank:
guests. But I feel like there was still a linger in question.
Peter Frank:
And gosh, at this point again, knock on wood. We just had a
Peter Frank:
planning meeting the other day, and God, it's just the ideas
Peter Frank:
keep coming. And we just heard this morning, Andre who does her
Peter Frank:
scheduling, who does an amazing job with so much of this
Peter Frank:
production, Andrea reported this morning that she reached out to
Peter Frank:
a new batch of guests, and they're all just elated. There's
Peter Frank:
a lot of energy and excitement to be on the podcast, which I
Peter Frank:
think is fantastic. Yeah, I don't know that any episode
Peter Frank:
sticks out, because everyone's been fascinating. It's always a
Peter Frank:
different spin and a different topic. It sure is, and it's
Peter Frank:
definitely great. You get the personal it's not even the AI so
Peter Frank:
much of the cyber security or the other things we cover. It's
Peter Frank:
like they have some personal story about their journey in
Peter Frank:
this world, and that is often what's so interesting. I've
Peter Frank:
loved being a part of it, and I'm glad I get to do it, and I
Peter Frank:
appreciate
Unknown:
that. Yeah,
Christina Lewellen:
thank you for all of the help. Really
Christina Lewellen:
appreciate it. Bill and Hiram and I have not yet managed to
Christina Lewellen:
strangle each other, so we've been having a good time, and
Christina Lewellen:
it's been a real pleasure. So thank you guys so much. Okay, so
Christina Lewellen:
now that we've got all the zombie questions out of the way,
Christina Lewellen:
it's time to pivot, and we're going to finally welcome to the
Christina Lewellen:
podcast our guest today, Richard gullata, Richard, you are the
Christina Lewellen:
CEO of ISTE and ASCD, a combination organization. Now
Christina Lewellen:
let me pause there for a second and let you explain that piece
Christina Lewellen:
of things you brought together ISTE with another organization.
Christina Lewellen:
And for those who are listening primarily the Independent School
Christina Lewellen:
world, they may not be tracking what ASCD is. Yeah,
Richard Culatta:
happy to first of all, hi, Christina. It's
Richard Culatta:
always fun to be back. Hello, hanging out with you. So glad we
Richard Culatta:
could do this. Yeah? So almost two years ago now, we brought
Richard Culatta:
together these two organizations. It's been a
Richard Culatta:
process, right? We've been working on this ISTE, which is
Richard Culatta:
very focused on accelerating innovation in education, and we
Richard Culatta:
spend a lot of time talking about how we can use technology
Richard Culatta:
to help be a lever to move that innovation along. And so that's
Richard Culatta:
one organization. The other is ASCD, which is really the
Richard Culatta:
association of curriculum leaders. So if there's a chief
Richard Culatta:
academic officer. Officer, head of Curriculum and Instruction.
Richard Culatta:
There's all the different titles, but that's really the
Richard Culatta:
role that goes there in the public schools, it could be a
Richard Culatta:
district reading specialist or something could also fall under
Richard Culatta:
there. And we just thought, in this post COVID world, having
Richard Culatta:
one group over here that's really about tech and innovation
Richard Culatta:
and another group over here that's about curriculum and
Richard Culatta:
instruction being two separate organizations wasn't serving
Richard Culatta:
anybody well. Wasn't serving teachers Well, wasn't serving
Richard Culatta:
kids. Serving kids well, wasn't there anybody well? So we are
Richard Culatta:
bringing them together, and we have a our very creative new
Richard Culatta:
name is ISTE ACD, for now anyway. And what we're doing is
Richard Culatta:
we're keeping elements of both organizations, but we're also
Richard Culatta:
gradually pulling the two together. So for example, this
Richard Culatta:
summer, in June, we will have our co located annual
Richard Culatta:
conferences. So we'll still have ISTE live, and then we'll also
Richard Culatta:
have as CDs annual conference, but they will happen in the same
Richard Culatta:
place at the same time. If you register for one, you can go to
Richard Culatta:
sessions from the other, stuff like that. So we're just working
Richard Culatta:
to bring these groups together to help make learning better for
Richard Culatta:
kids. Sounds like that's going really well. There are days
Richard Culatta:
where it goes really well. And there are days where I'm like,
Richard Culatta:
how many forms does one have to fill out in order to merge to
Richard Culatta:
organizations, in order to
Christina Lewellen:
be legal with ignorable right? A lot many
Christina Lewellen:
forms, lots of
Richard Culatta:
forms. But from a team side or staff side, it's
Richard Culatta:
been fantastic. Our team has been wonderful. And you know,
Richard Culatta:
our community of educators around the world has been very
Richard Culatta:
supportive, so that helps us get through the other logistics.
Bill Stites:
Having attended both conferences over the years,
Bill Stites:
when I heard about the merger, I was very excited by it, because
Bill Stites:
I would go to each of them and whether we were talking about
Bill Stites:
curriculum pieces and I was looking for the tech pieces or
Bill Stites:
or vice versa, you know, attending ISTE and trying to
Bill Stites:
find those different things, it was one of those things. I don't
Bill Stites:
think I necessarily would have thought of it on my own, but
Bill Stites:
when I heard about it, I was like, Oh, my God, that makes
Bill Stites:
perfect sense. You know, in terms of the way in which the
Bill Stites:
two of them have come together, the Co Location is great. And it
Bill Stites:
was funny, you mentioned it because I had a conversation
Bill Stites:
with one of my colleagues about the conference this year in
Bill Stites:
June, about sending some people down to ISTE, and I didn't
Bill Stites:
realize it was going to be co located. So in terms of the
Bill Stites:
running of those two, they're going to function as two
Bill Stites:
distinct conferences, but the registration will allow you to
Bill Stites:
move between both seamlessly. That's right.
Richard Culatta:
So we'll run two separate programs. There'll
Richard Culatta:
be a shared main stage program, and there'll be a shared Expo
Richard Culatta:
experience, so there'll be some overlap, but then the programs
Richard Culatta:
will run separately. But as we said, the badge, if you register
Richard Culatta:
for ISD live. That badge will let you into any of the ASCD
Richard Culatta:
sessions and vice versa. And so people can have as much or as
Richard Culatta:
little if they want of the other event or just stick with the one
Richard Culatta:
that they came for. Either way,
Christina Lewellen:
that's awesome.
Bill Stites:
And what I think is great about that, and you
Bill Stites:
mentioned it, and this, again, came up in the conversation I
Bill Stites:
had this morning is the expo portion of it, one of the things
Bill Stites:
I remember distinctly about the conference has been walking
Bill Stites:
around that floor and just the sheer number of vendors and
Bill Stites:
people that were there to talk to and connect with and really
Bill Stites:
find out so the fact that that's going to be a shared Space, I
Bill Stites:
hope you booked a big venue, because I'm expecting you're
Bill Stites:
gonna have a ton of people and that, I mean, if nothing else,
Bill Stites:
that experience, getting all those people in one place, I
Bill Stites:
think is worth the price of admission alone,
Richard Culatta:
100% No, I totally agree. And a couple
Richard Culatta:
things, if any of the listeners here aren't aware, one of the
Richard Culatta:
things that we have is our expo experience at ISTE is a little
Richard Culatta:
different because we don't allow sales. You can do demos, you can
Richard Culatta:
ask questions, certainly, if that leads to a sale down the
Richard Culatta:
road, that's fine, but we don't allow sales on the expo floor.
Richard Culatta:
We are specifically not a sales floor because we want educators
Richard Culatta:
to be able to go and explore without feeling like they're
Richard Culatta:
getting their arm twisted into buying something. And that's
Richard Culatta:
part of the magic of it. It's why, you know, we have our
Richard Culatta:
companies that come and participate and say, Why do we
Richard Culatta:
have so much more engagement at ISTE live the expo than we do
Richard Culatta:
other places are like because we've made it clear that it's
Richard Culatta:
the same space. You're not going to get pounced on. So we'll
Richard Culatta:
continue that with the co located event. And one other
Richard Culatta:
thing that I should mention while we're talking about the
Richard Culatta:
event is that for several years now, we have also done a CTO
Richard Culatta:
forum, a meet up that we do in partnership with Atlas, and so
Richard Culatta:
we'll be very excited to keep doing that again this year, and
Richard Culatta:
we really try to carve out some topics for that that are really
Richard Culatta:
targeted at people whose role is overseeing technical
Richard Culatta:
infrastructure and issues related to supporting learning
Richard Culatta:
from a technical side.
Christina Lewellen:
Yeah, we've already started brainstorming a
Christina Lewellen:
bit with our partners at ISTE and cosin to put that program
Christina Lewellen:
together, so we're really excited about it. And thank you
Christina Lewellen:
so much for continuing to have Atlas be a part of that we love
Christina Lewellen:
that. Let's take a step back. I would love to talk about your
Christina Lewellen:
professional journey, because it is a unique one. I can't imagine
Christina Lewellen:
that you anticipated that you would find yourself at the helm
Christina Lewellen:
of ISTE when you first started walking down your path. So tell
Christina Lewellen:
everybody a little bit about your professional journey. Yeah.
Richard Culatta:
So you know, it is not the journey that anyone
Richard Culatta:
would have planned, which actually suits me just fine. I
Richard Culatta:
have always just been fortunate to ask the question, Where can I
Richard Culatta:
make the most difference for. Good, right? That's always the
Richard Culatta:
question I ask it every time when I have a job opportunity.
Richard Culatta:
And so it's led me in some interesting paths. I started as
Richard Culatta:
a teacher. I taught high school Spanish. I then went on and
Richard Culatta:
taught pre service teachers, so teachers getting their
Richard Culatta:
licensing, which I love. I'd be happy to still be doing that.
Richard Culatta:
And a unique opportunity came out for me to come out to the
Richard Culatta:
Washington, DC area and help do some work in government, and I
Richard Culatta:
did that for a bit, and ended up being appointed by the White
Richard Culatta:
House to serve as the Director of the Office of Education
Richard Culatta:
Technology for the US Department of Ed I did some work on the
Richard Culatta:
Hill too. So I sort of lived the policy world for a bit, also
Richard Culatta:
something I never would have guessed that I would have done,
Richard Culatta:
and then had a chance to go back to my home state of Rhode Island
Richard Culatta:
and work as the Chief Innovation Officer for the State of Rhode
Richard Culatta:
Island for a bit, which, again, was fascinating to have that
Richard Culatta:
federal experience and then State experience. But all that
Richard Culatta:
time, you know, Mike core wanted to be back in the education
Richard Culatta:
world, more directly in the education world, and so when the
Richard Culatta:
opportunity came up to come join ISTE, an organization that I'd
Richard Culatta:
been a member of back from when I was a teacher, I jumped at the
Richard Culatta:
chance, and that's where, where I've been ever since. And then,
Richard Culatta:
obviously, recently, now it's merged into this new combined
Richard Culatta:
organization.
Christina Lewellen:
When you came into your role at ISTE, you
Christina Lewellen:
know, when I came into my role at Atlas, one of the first
Christina Lewellen:
organizations I heard about was ISTE, and I think a lot of our
Christina Lewellen:
tech leaders on the Independent School side tend to love ISTE
Christina Lewellen:
because of that experiment on the floor situation that you've
Christina Lewellen:
designed, which is that they can go and check things out without
Christina Lewellen:
a lot of obligation, and get a lot of great ideas to bring back
Christina Lewellen:
to their schools. Over time, we have found opportunities to work
Christina Lewellen:
together, and really it's been so incredible of ISTE to welcome
Christina Lewellen:
Atlas into the fold, because we're much, much smaller, and we
Christina Lewellen:
represent just one piece of the educational pie. But we had you
Christina Lewellen:
come over to our event in Orlando, as we were all scraping
Christina Lewellen:
our way out of the pandemic, and you joined us, and you were a
Christina Lewellen:
main stage speaker at the Atlas event. They loved having you.
Christina Lewellen:
Loved hearing about your perspective on the world, and
Christina Lewellen:
that was even before AI became a part of the conversation, just
Christina Lewellen:
talking about what is going on with technology in education
Christina Lewellen:
today? I know that's a huge question, but you probably get
Christina Lewellen:
it a lot. So what do you think of technology today in
Christina Lewellen:
education, and how has it changed since you were teaching
Christina Lewellen:
Spanish all those years ago. Well,
Richard Culatta:
back when I was teaching Spanish, many years
Richard Culatta:
ago, at one point, I did something really, really crazy,
Richard Culatta:
which is, I made a video, I brought it in, and we used
Richard Culatta:
videos to explain some key concepts. And it was like, Wow.
Richard Culatta:
You know, just in case anybody's wondering how old I am, but
Richard Culatta:
we're at a really interesting crossroads right now, I think.
Richard Culatta:
And actually, I think back to some of the things that we
Richard Culatta:
talked about when I visited your event not that long ago. We were
Richard Culatta:
talking about, how do we create healthy conditions for tech use
Richard Culatta:
in schools? In fact, we created a guide, a joint guide, with
Richard Culatta:
ISTE Atlas and cousin around how to help create healthy
Richard Culatta:
conditions for tech use. That was before. I don't think any of
Richard Culatta:
us in our crystal balls could see this whole cell phone in
Richard Culatta:
schools thing blowing up the way it has, right? It's like the
Richard Culatta:
only thing that we can talk about, other than AI. So as I
Richard Culatta:
look today, we have an interesting situation, which is
Richard Culatta:
one where we have unprecedented amounts of technical
Richard Culatta:
infrastructure. It was the digital infrastructure that I
Richard Culatta:
dreamed I would have had back when I was teaching, and never
Richard Culatta:
could have even imagined that we would have been in a world that
Richard Culatta:
not only would every kid have a device, but they would have
Richard Culatta:
multiple devices, at least one from the school, probably two
Richard Culatta:
from home, right in many cases. I think what we are seeing,
Richard Culatta:
though, is in the rush to improve infrastructure, which
Richard Culatta:
was largely accelerated by COVID, by the way, and it's hard
Richard Culatta:
to think of a silver lining coming from COVID. But if there
Richard Culatta:
was any silver lining, having some attention drawn to the fact
Richard Culatta:
that we needed better infrastructure was something
Richard Culatta:
that came out of it. But in the rush to do that, we moved faster
Richard Culatta:
with infrastructure than we did with conditions for healthy use,
Richard Culatta:
and we're feeling the backlash of that now. I think, though, I
Richard Culatta:
would say my worry is there is a movement, and it's a powerful
Richard Culatta:
movement that says, whoa. The way to solve this is pull all
Richard Culatta:
that tech back out, shut down all those devices, turn off the
Richard Culatta:
networks, right? And that, unfortunately, does not help set
Richard Culatta:
up our kids today for success in their future, learning or life,
Richard Culatta:
and so we have to do is get ahead of that narrative and say,
Richard Culatta:
Wait a minute. Yes, we know there are a whole host of
Richard Culatta:
digital dysfunctions that we have created that we've allowed
Richard Culatta:
to be created because we haven't provided enough structure and
Richard Culatta:
context around helping our kids be smart users of technology.
Richard Culatta:
But the way to fix that is not to ban access to technology. The
Richard Culatta:
way to fix that is have those conversations. Talk about what
Richard Culatta:
appropriate use is. Talk about what it means to use technology
Richard Culatta:
for good. Talk about what it means when technology becomes a
Richard Culatta:
distraction and really help build those great digital
Richard Culatta:
citizens that we need to be our future leaders. Yeah,
Christina Lewellen:
and so Bill and Hiram my. Co hosts here are
Christina Lewellen:
both former educators who moved into their Chief Technology
Christina Lewellen:
Strategist role at their schools, and so we talk about
Christina Lewellen:
these issues a lot. One of the things that I know that the guys
Christina Lewellen:
are most excited about and have actually helped on the Atlas
Christina Lewellen:
side be advocates for, is the product index, because another
Christina Lewellen:
piece of this puzzle is sorting all of that with all of these
Christina Lewellen:
vendors and making sure that we understand our cyber risk and
Christina Lewellen:
making sure that we're protecting our young people's
Christina Lewellen:
data. And so there's also those issues too. So not just the cell
Christina Lewellen:
phone bans, it's just more complex. We talk about it all
Christina Lewellen:
the time, and I know that I'm beating the guys to the punch,
Christina Lewellen:
but my question lies in we often talk about how schools are even
Christina Lewellen:
more complex than businesses and enterprise, because you're
Christina Lewellen:
dealing with young humans and you're dealing with adults in
Christina Lewellen:
different roles. So when it comes to some of those safety
Christina Lewellen:
issues, what some of the work that you guys are thinking
Christina Lewellen:
about? You know, obviously it's great to have technology
Christina Lewellen:
amplifying education, but then there's also these concerns that
Christina Lewellen:
we need to kind of keep our hands around.
Richard Culatta:
Yeah, by the way, that is such an important
Richard Culatta:
point, I think, is that in businesses, in companies, in
Richard Culatta:
even higher education, you're essentially creating structure,
Richard Culatta:
policy strategies for adults, and you can kind of group them
Richard Culatta:
all in one category, right? In schools, you don't get to do
Richard Culatta:
that. And it's not even two categories, not adults and kids,
Richard Culatta:
because a kindergartner is in a very different situation than a
Richard Culatta:
middle school student or a high school student. And so even
Richard Culatta:
policies, you know, we talk about creating healthy digital
Richard Culatta:
use policies, you can't have one of those and expect that it will
Richard Culatta:
apply to an entire range of students, right? We have to be
Richard Culatta:
able to be thinking at different levels, what does privacy look
Richard Culatta:
like? It's again, very different for kindergartner than for a
Richard Culatta:
junior in high school. What does access look like? And so yes, it
Richard Culatta:
is very complex. I did want to just circle back you mentioned
Richard Culatta:
something this product index, which I'm really excited about.
Richard Culatta:
Excited to be working with Atlas on it and several other amazing
Richard Culatta:
partners. And you know, what we basically found is there wasn't
Richard Culatta:
a good central place that anybody could go to to see how
Richard Culatta:
individual ed tech products lined up with any sort of review
Richard Culatta:
or validation. Is the term that I use right right now, if you
Richard Culatta:
want to see, hey, is this particular product, whatever it
Richard Culatta:
is? Is it accessible? Does it meet privacy requirements? Does
Richard Culatta:
it meet basic pedagogy requirements? You'd have to go
Richard Culatta:
to eight different places. We did some research and found that
Richard Culatta:
schools, on average, spend around 40,000 hours, 40,000
Richard Culatta:
hours reviewing apps to know if they can be put in front of
Richard Culatta:
kids. That is an enormous amount of time that should be instead,
Richard Culatta:
put towards helping kids in all kinds of other ways, or, if
Richard Culatta:
you're adults in the system, helping support your teachers
Richard Culatta:
better, right? Not reviewing apps. So what we're trying to
Richard Culatta:
do, and it's a big lift, but we're excited to be working on
Richard Culatta:
it with you, which is create this thing called the product
Richard Culatta:
index, and say, here's all of the products that we're aware
Richard Culatta:
of, any that we find, and we assign them a number. It's like
Richard Culatta:
an ISBN number, right? But it's for a learning product and a
Richard Culatta:
digital product. And then anybody who has made a
Richard Culatta:
validation on that product, it doesn't have to be just ISTE.
Richard Culatta:
Doesn't have to be just Atlas. But if there's an organization
Richard Culatta:
that says, Hey, we are an expert on accessibility, we've reviewed
Richard Culatta:
that product, and we can tell you, here's its good parts,
Richard Culatta:
here's where it might be struggling, we will list that on
Richard Culatta:
the product index. And so the hope is that we can at least cut
Richard Culatta:
down some of that 40,000 hours and give some time back to
Richard Culatta:
schools by offloading some of that review, some of the
Richard Culatta:
validation of products, to others, which
Christina Lewellen:
is so valuable to the Independent
Christina Lewellen:
School world too, especially for our smaller schools or less
Christina Lewellen:
resource schools that maybe have a lone ranger tech department,
Christina Lewellen:
and they're trying to keep up with all these privacy policies
Christina Lewellen:
and interoperability issues, and so having the product index,
Christina Lewellen:
what we're trying to do at Atlas is encourage vendors in the
Christina Lewellen:
Independent School community to get into that index, get listed,
Christina Lewellen:
follow the steps, work With the ISTE team, the ED search team,
Christina Lewellen:
to get the product listed. That makes it easier for our user
Christina Lewellen:
community to then go and find independent school resources, or
Christina Lewellen:
just ed tech resources in general, for school. But if
Christina Lewellen:
there's independent school specific products or tools, S is
Christina Lewellen:
for example, we're wanting to make sure that those are listed
Christina Lewellen:
there so that our independent schools can get the benefit of
Christina Lewellen:
it as well. Bill and Hiram are huge advocates.
Richard Culatta:
Yeah, yeah. And just in case, if we have some
Richard Culatta:
companies that might be listening to this, some product
Richard Culatta:
developers, we don't charge for that, you can list for free if
Richard Culatta:
you want to have your product reviewed and validated. There
Richard Culatta:
are ways that we can do that, and there are some minimal
Richard Culatta:
charges for that. But to be listed, we're not charging. We
Richard Culatta:
want people to get in, get their product listed, so it's easy.
Richard Culatta:
Listed, so it's easier for schools to be able to find the
Richard Culatta:
right tools and apps.
Bill Stites:
This is something that Hiram and I are going back
Bill Stites:
and forth on. I mean, I've got probably three emails in my
Bill Stites:
inbox right now from Hiram going back and forth on these types of
Bill Stites:
issues. But again, I alluded to the conversation I was having
Bill Stites:
with a colleague this morning and this. Came up at that point
Bill Stites:
as well, because we were looking at a product, we were looking at
Bill Stites:
a tool that we were using to help evaluate that product. And
Bill Stites:
one of the things that I looked at, and this is a question that
Bill Stites:
I have, because on certain pieces, you know, you might
Bill Stites:
evaluate something, and there's one version of it to evaluate,
Bill Stites:
but I think where we get caught is that there is, and this is, I
Bill Stites:
think, partially a result of COVID. We've mentioned this
Bill Stites:
before, is that there is the free version of something, and
Bill Stites:
then there is the paid version of something. And when I was
Bill Stites:
using the tool that I was looking at, there wasn't a
Bill Stites:
distinction as to what version of that they were evaluating,
Bill Stites:
because there were literally three tiers to this product, and
Bill Stites:
each tier offered different levels of data protection. They
Bill Stites:
offer different levels of other types of services. So when
Bill Stites:
you're using the product index that you have now, how is it
Bill Stites:
evaluating those tools, and is it making those distinctions
Bill Stites:
from that freemium version of it, where you're paying with
Bill Stites:
social capital, or the ones where you're actually entering
Bill Stites:
into a financial arrangement? I specifically avoided the word
Bill Stites:
contract, because even the free ones, you're entering into a
Bill Stites:
contract with these people. How are you approaching those types
Bill Stites:
of tools? Because those are the ones that come us at us from the
Bill Stites:
faculty, more so than some of these other ones that are just
Bill Stites:
kind of box products.
Richard Culatta:
Yeah, great question. And I really like your
Richard Culatta:
distinction there. There really aren't tools that are free,
Richard Culatta:
especially if you consider the value of data. So if you are
Richard Culatta:
putting data from your school into a system, there is value
Richard Culatta:
being exchanged there. So nothing is free. Sometimes it
Richard Culatta:
might involve a transfer of currency. But, you know, I think
Richard Culatta:
your point is really a good one, and it's tricky. Instead of
Richard Culatta:
giving you a really good answer, I'm going to actually complicate
Richard Culatta:
it even more by the fact that not only do we have the sort of
Richard Culatta:
the freemium version, or a plus version, or whatever. And we do
Richard Culatta:
try to indicate that whenever we can on the index. But it's even
Richard Culatta:
more tricky, because, you know, back in the day, right? It was
Richard Culatta:
very clear what version of a particular piece of software you
Richard Culatta:
were on, you know, it's 13.5 and we'd upgrade to 13.6 right? And
Richard Culatta:
so much of the software that we use in the education space
Richard Culatta:
doesn't even have versions, right? It's just being
Richard Culatta:
constantly, iteratively updated, which, on some ways, is a good
Richard Culatta:
thing. It makes it even harder, though, to be able to evaluate
Richard Culatta:
and it's part of why traditional research sort of these long,
Richard Culatta:
random control tile, you know, three year RCT style studies
Richard Culatta:
just don't work in the digital space. One of the ways that we
Richard Culatta:
try to do that is with the validations that we issue on
Richard Culatta:
products. They have a life cycle, and so after a certain
Richard Culatta:
amount of time, I think it's three years, a product has to be
Richard Culatta:
re upped, as if they come back, and they have to be re evaluated
Richard Culatta:
to see if those elements that were evaluated the first time
Richard Culatta:
either are still there, or if they've improved, or in some
Richard Culatta:
cases, if they now are not meeting the criteria, we would
Richard Culatta:
be able to state that. And so that's sort of our crude method
Richard Culatta:
right now, is just to say, Hey, you don't get a ones, and then
Richard Culatta:
you're good for the rest of your life. But I'm sure there are
Richard Culatta:
better ways and other ways that we could be thinking that. And
Richard Culatta:
so maybe an invitation to your members and others that are
Richard Culatta:
listening to that is if you can think of ways that would be
Richard Culatta:
better without being too onerous, right? It's hard. If it
Richard Culatta:
becomes too onerous on the developers, and they're like,
Richard Culatta:
Ah, we're out. We're not going to participate. So how can we
Richard Culatta:
make it easy but still make sure it's clear you know when and
Richard Culatta:
where a validation has been done. So any feedback that you
Richard Culatta:
have, or others have, I'd love to hear, Richard.
Hiram Cuevas:
I love the fact that you are working hard to try
Hiram Cuevas:
and streamline it and make it as easy as possible. I will tell
Hiram Cuevas:
you right now I've already benefited from the time savings
Hiram Cuevas:
because I've also provided this information to our instructional
Hiram Cuevas:
text, because they get questions about software from the
Hiram Cuevas:
trenches, and they're very interested in trying to support
Hiram Cuevas:
their folks. And now it kind of takes the first level or layer
Hiram Cuevas:
of the review out of my desk and places it with the instructional
Hiram Cuevas:
text to provide them the agency to say, Okay, I've reviewed
Hiram Cuevas:
these things. These are the gotchas that you got to wonder
Hiram Cuevas:
about. And if we need to pass this on to the next level, I can
Hiram Cuevas:
then review it. And so much of it is educating your faculty
Hiram Cuevas:
about the nuances associated with terms of service. The other
Hiram Cuevas:
issue is the terms for the AI learning of the bot itself,
Hiram Cuevas:
because so often you have to look carefully that they are not
Hiram Cuevas:
training the machine with your information from your particular
Hiram Cuevas:
school. And this is where Bill and I have had the conversation
Hiram Cuevas:
of using AI to leverage the terms of service than
Hiram Cuevas:
demonstrating to our faculty are these are the points that AI has
Hiram Cuevas:
said are problematic with this particular application that you
Hiram Cuevas:
need to be cognizant of. This application leaves its site and
Hiram Cuevas:
goes to other third parties, which now means you need to look
Hiram Cuevas:
and review at all those terms of services for each and every one
Hiram Cuevas:
of those third party apps that they. Connect to thank you.
Hiram Cuevas:
First of all, you've been a huge help to us, along with the other
Hiram Cuevas:
partners that we are utilizing, and it's really an important
Hiram Cuevas:
part to our tool kit.
Richard Culatta:
Yeah, thanks. I appreciate that. And you bring
Richard Culatta:
up some of the complexities here, right? Miraculously, we've
Richard Culatta:
been talking for, you know, 15 minutes and haven't brought up
Richard Culatta:
AI yet. But Hiram, your point is, AI adds a bunch of
Richard Culatta:
complexities too. One of the things that I worry about is I
Richard Culatta:
visit schools and I'll hear somebody say, Hey, don't put any
Richard Culatta:
data into AI because it will be taking all of your data. I'm
Richard Culatta:
like, Well, wait a minute, that's not necessarily true. And
Richard Culatta:
then on the flip side, right? And it's done with good intent,
Richard Culatta:
right? But like at our team here, we have AI tools that we
Richard Culatta:
use that we have licensed, and part of the license is that our
Richard Culatta:
data stays protected. But that doesn't mean that doesn't mean
Richard Culatta:
that you could then just go grab another tool off the internet
Richard Culatta:
and use it and have the data be protected. You all know this,
Richard Culatta:
but trying to take something that's complex and nuanced and
Richard Culatta:
simplify it enough is just a tough challenge, and I think we
Richard Culatta:
all need to keep our heads in this game and be constantly
Richard Culatta:
thinking, how can we make this easier for educators to
Richard Culatta:
understand and make sense of when, when they aren't tech
Richard Culatta:
experts, and they shouldn't have to be in order to be able to get
Richard Culatta:
a fairly simple answer on is this tool, one that I can use
Richard Culatta:
safely in my classroom.
Hiram Cuevas:
And the interesting piece there is that
Hiram Cuevas:
all of these applications are now introducing AI, and that's
Hiram Cuevas:
another layer that you now have to not only review it initially,
Hiram Cuevas:
but it's now a new version because of that AI.
Christina Lewellen:
So Richard, you authored a book that is
Christina Lewellen:
really popular in our community. I always have a copy nearby as
Christina Lewellen:
well. It's called Digital for good, raising kids to thrive in
Christina Lewellen:
an online world. And you wrote this a few years back. I'm
Christina Lewellen:
curious now, if you think that you would include any thing else
Christina Lewellen:
in it, if you were to go back to press, are there pieces of the
Christina Lewellen:
puzzle that you understand a little differently now, given
Christina Lewellen:
that AI has sort of burst onto the
Richard Culatta:
scene, you know, it's interesting you asked
Richard Culatta:
that question, because I do think about that. The good part
Richard Culatta:
is, I actually think the framework, the principles that I
Richard Culatta:
present there, and if you're not familiar with the book, there
Richard Culatta:
are five key principles that I present around helping young
Richard Culatta:
people become healthy digital citizens. How to have good
Richard Culatta:
digital well being is a term that I like to use. And those I
Richard Culatta:
wouldn't change at all. I think they are spot on, and I think
Richard Culatta:
the concepts underlying them really make sense. What is
Richard Culatta:
interesting, though, is to see how the world has shifted
Richard Culatta:
because of AI. And I do talk about AI in the book, because
Richard Culatta:
that was something that was clearly, you know, could see
Richard Culatta:
that coming even before the major explosion, but I think
Richard Culatta:
it's accelerated some of the concepts that I bring up. So for
Richard Culatta:
example, one of the things that I talk about is this sort of
Richard Culatta:
binary of this information is good or bad, right? Or this
Richard Culatta:
information. And one of the things I talk about the book is
Richard Culatta:
it's not that simple. Most of the book is just saying, hey,
Richard Culatta:
it's not that simple, right? So one of the things I say is,
Richard Culatta:
there can be information that is biased, but if the purpose is to
Richard Culatta:
be persuasive, if it's to provide a persuasive argument
Richard Culatta:
that might be very appropriate to hear a viewpoint, it would be
Richard Culatta:
totally inappropriate to use that as a factual piece of media
Richard Culatta:
if you were doing a different sort of assignment in school and
Richard Culatta:
so helping young people understand the nuance of when do
Richard Culatta:
I want Something that's opinion. When do I want something that's
Richard Culatta:
fact? When is something that the purpose is advertising that has
Richard Culatta:
all been complexified to make up a word with AI. And so I think
Richard Culatta:
what I would say is, if I were to do anything else, if I were
Richard Culatta:
to rewrite the book, I would just increase the level of
Richard Culatta:
urgency that I would put behind having some of these
Richard Culatta:
conversations that I suggest with kids, because it is moving
Richard Culatta:
much faster, both for positive and negative, but you can get
Richard Culatta:
answers much faster, but also you can get misled much faster.
Richard Culatta:
And so I think really getting ahead of that matters. The one
Richard Culatta:
thing that I've been pondering recently I would have another
Richard Culatta:
chapter in the book, maybe on this, if I were to rewrite it,
Richard Culatta:
is in the AI world, the value of answers becomes much less and
Richard Culatta:
the value of questions becomes much greater. And I think that
Richard Culatta:
has some major implications for our schools that we haven't
Richard Culatta:
grappled with yet, right? And it doesn't mean that having an
Richard Culatta:
answer isn't important, right? Air is much more important for
Richard Culatta:
us than gold, but the value of gold is much greater because
Richard Culatta:
it's rarer, right? And so in a world where answers are much
Richard Culatta:
easier to come by, the value goes down. Questions,
Richard Culatta:
interrogating, those answers, questioning, knowing how to make
Richard Culatta:
a right question, that value goes way up. But our schools are
Richard Culatta:
largely designed around valuing answers, not questions, and
Richard Culatta:
that's something that we're going to have to really start to
Richard Culatta:
grapple with over the next couple of years. It's
Bill Stites:
interesting, because the question represents
Bill Stites:
your ability to synthesize the answer, synthesize the content,
Bill Stites:
hear what you're saying, and then engage in that dialog back.
Bill Stites:
So it's that give and take is a great point. I mean, I literally
Bill Stites:
wrote it down, yeah, in my notes, and I'm highlighting
Bill Stites:
there's some like, that's spot on in a way that I really hadn't
Bill Stites:
thought of before.
Richard Culatta:
And, you know, think about that even just for
Richard Culatta:
assessment alone, right? Almost all of our assessments are based
Richard Culatta:
on here's a thing. Give me an answer, right? And, you know,
Richard Culatta:
imagine what it starts to look like when we say, you. Here's a
Richard Culatta:
scenario. What questions do you have about it? That's a far more
Richard Culatta:
authentic assessment, but it's also not the sort of assessments
Richard Culatta:
that we're preparing teachers now to be able to create and to
Richard Culatta:
deliver. And so there's a lot of relearning that we're going to
Richard Culatta:
have to be doing as we shift into this world. That leads me
Christina Lewellen:
into something that I had planned to
Christina Lewellen:
kind of ask you about something that I'm interested in, because
Christina Lewellen:
I say often on the pod. You know that I have a daughter. My
Christina Lewellen:
oldest daughter, is going to school to be an educator, and
Christina Lewellen:
shockingly to me, they're not teaching her about AI in school.
Christina Lewellen:
She's a junior, she's done practicum. She'll be in the
Christina Lewellen:
classroom in a year and a half, teaching, and they're not
Christina Lewellen:
talking to her at her school about AI tools about changing
Christina Lewellen:
how we assess, really the scaffolding to know how to use
Christina Lewellen:
AI for younger students. Just curious, what you think about
Christina Lewellen:
that. Do we have to get going here? Folks like, do we need to
Christina Lewellen:
get step in?
Richard Culatta:
Yes, is the answer to that. Look, this is a
Richard Culatta:
huge issue. One of the biggest concerns that I hear when I talk
Richard Culatta:
to school leaders is the lack of adequate preparation for
Richard Culatta:
incoming new teachers coming out of teacher education programs.
Richard Culatta:
It's such a big deal actually that we started recently the
Richard Culatta:
coalition of educator prep programs that also agree that
Richard Culatta:
this is a problem, and we're working together to try to do
Richard Culatta:
something about it. And so we've created this coalition of about
Richard Culatta:
100 now teacher education institutions from around the
Richard Culatta:
country, and we're coming together and saying, what do we
Richard Culatta:
do to help really rethink the role of technology? AI, of
Richard Culatta:
course, but it's beyond that in this group, in fact, just next
Richard Culatta:
month, we're bringing all of those Deans together out in
Richard Culatta:
Silicon Valley to sit down and say, and we're going to meet
Richard Culatta:
with some of the top leaders from the AI world and just say,
Richard Culatta:
How does this impact what you're doing? How do we think
Richard Culatta:
differently about this? One thing that I'll share is that
Richard Culatta:
all of the institutions that are part of this sign a pledge, an
Richard Culatta:
agreement that they will actively build in key elements
Richard Culatta:
of effective technologies to their curriculum for pre service
Richard Culatta:
teachers, and they have to do work to help their faculty be
Richard Culatta:
more prepared in order to deal with these issues. But I mean,
Richard Culatta:
we are just getting started. This is a huge issue. There are
Richard Culatta:
1000s of teacher preparation program just in the US alone,
Richard Culatta:
and we have got to spend more time helping them get ready,
Richard Culatta:
because the teachers that show up in the classroom today are
Richard Culatta:
not coming with the depth of understanding that they need,
Richard Culatta:
because their teacher prep programs have not built that
Richard Culatta:
into the curriculum,
Christina Lewellen:
right? And look no shade, right? Because
Christina Lewellen:
there's tons of other stuff that has to get handled. So she's
Christina Lewellen:
learning all the basics, and she's learning about the
Christina Lewellen:
pedagogical foundation that she needs to have to be effective in
Christina Lewellen:
the classroom. But it's interesting because it does put
Christina Lewellen:
a lot of pressure on atlases technology leaders to have
Christina Lewellen:
teachers coming into the classroom that really are just
Christina Lewellen:
not grounded in the options. It puts a lot of pressure on our
Christina Lewellen:
tech leaders to then get them caught up in a hurry, you know,
Christina Lewellen:
in terms of what's possible in the world, and also what kind of
Christina Lewellen:
graduates we're trying to send out into the world,
Richard Culatta:
100% and if I could make it, maybe an
Richard Culatta:
invitation back, which is if you are, particularly if it's a
Richard Culatta:
school that is in an area where new teachers tend to come from
Richard Culatta:
one or two institutions, right? And you know, I realize,
Richard Culatta:
especially if it's a smaller independent school, you're not
Richard Culatta:
hiring 2030 teachers. You may be having two or three teachers,
Richard Culatta:
but even if it's two or three teachers, and you're finding
Richard Culatta:
that they have some skills gap, particularly around how they're
Richard Culatta:
using technology, please communicate that back to those
Richard Culatta:
higher ed institutions. One of the things that we found as we
Richard Culatta:
were working with these EPP programs, they were saying we
Richard Culatta:
aren't hearing any problems. And we went, are you kidding? And so
Richard Culatta:
we started facilitating conversation going back, and
Richard Culatta:
they're like, well, like, you know, I think there wasn't an
Richard Culatta:
awareness of how far the gap had gotten. And so just in a nice,
Richard Culatta:
like you said, Christina, in a supportive way, we're not
Richard Culatta:
throwing anybody into the bus, but a nice we just say, Hey dear
Richard Culatta:
so and so, head of the Dean of such and such school. Just
Richard Culatta:
giving you a heads up that we love hiring your students, but
Richard Culatta:
they are showing up without the expertise that we need in these
Richard Culatta:
areas. If there's anything we can do to help you, please let
Richard Culatta:
us know. And just keeping that on their radar, I think, is
Richard Culatta:
really, really important.
Bill Stites:
I think that's a great shout out for the merger
Bill Stites:
of the two organizations, because I think it takes the
Bill Stites:
idea of putting those curricular leaders and connecting them on
Bill Stites:
the IT side of things. My degree is in early childhood Ed. You
Bill Stites:
know, I think I had one computer class, and it was in college and
Bill Stites:
it was in the stone age, but there was one course on that,
Bill Stites:
but it was not really focused on anything that had to do with
Bill Stites:
pedagogy, as Christina saying there wasn't any connection to
Bill Stites:
it at that point. Granted, it was harder back. You know, this
Bill Stites:
is late 80s, early 90s that I'm talking about here, so the
Bill Stites:
connections weren't as evident. But again, it's one of those
Bill Stites:
things that continue, and I think the merger brings the two
Bill Stites:
of those things closer together, because it puts them both in the
Bill Stites:
same conversation. Because organizations. Nationally, those
Bill Stites:
two groups are now one in the same so I think that's fabulous.
Bill Stites:
The question that I do have to follow up on the topic of the
Bill Stites:
book and the idea of raising kids, and talking about where
Bill Stites:
schools fit into that, when we talk about everything that
Bill Stites:
people put upon schools in terms of educating our children and
Bill Stites:
raising our children. Where do the parents fall in this mix?
Bill Stites:
Where do we as adults with these kids outside of the classroom
Bill Stites:
fall into that mix? And we've talked about this before, in
Bill Stites:
terms of our own modeling of the use of technology and how we're
Bill Stites:
going about doing it. Where do you see that distinction, like,
Bill Stites:
Where can we let the school off the hook a little bit here, and
Bill Stites:
say that this is not something that institutions are going to
Bill Stites:
be able to solve on their own? What are the parental
Bill Stites:
responsibilities here?
Richard Culatta:
Oh my gosh. Thank you so much for asking
Richard Culatta:
that question. I really appreciate that. So I have a
Richard Culatta:
chapter in the book that's called Digital well being is a
Richard Culatta:
team sport, and the whole purpose of that is to make this
Richard Culatta:
point that you're making, which is, this is not something that
Richard Culatta:
schools can do on their own. And one of the things that we really
Richard Culatta:
need to be clear about is that we see in schools that do this
Richard Culatta:
really well, where we visit schools and you're not having
Richard Culatta:
cell phone issues or having good technology use, what you notice
Richard Culatta:
is that there are principles that are reinforced at home and
Richard Culatta:
principles that are aligned similar language that are
Richard Culatta:
reinforced at school, and both help each other, because parents
Richard Culatta:
will say the same thing, by the way, they'll be like, well, if
Richard Culatta:
kids go to school and there's no structure around this, how hard
Richard Culatta:
is it for me to create structure at home, right? And it's this
Richard Culatta:
tension. What My recommendation is, and I think this is really
Richard Culatta:
critical, is schools can help parents provide some structure,
Richard Culatta:
they should not determine what their conditions for tech use
Richard Culatta:
are at home. That's a parent's job. It's a family's role. But
Richard Culatta:
some basic guidelines can be very helpful. Parents we know
Richard Culatta:
trust their schools, and so when they go to their school, and if
Richard Culatta:
the school says, hey, here are some of our principles for
Richard Culatta:
healthy tech use, and it can't be written in some legal
Richard Culatta:
language that nobody understands right? Plain language, right?
Richard Culatta:
And by the way, also, please watch out for the positive
Richard Culatta:
versus the negative. It's like, here's a list of all the things
Richard Culatta:
you should never do with technology that's not very
Richard Culatta:
helpful because you can't practice not doing something. So
Richard Culatta:
if the school says, Here are some core principles, we use
Richard Culatta:
technology to help encourage curiosity. We use technology to
Richard Culatta:
help make other people feel welcome and involved. We use
Richard Culatta:
technology to help make our community a better place. We use
Richard Culatta:
technology to fact check, right? We use technology to engage with
Richard Culatta:
people that we know and trust, particularly if it's with
Richard Culatta:
younger kids. You want to work some of that in. If you just
Richard Culatta:
provide some of those guidance to parents and say, here's our
Richard Culatta:
conditions at school, how could you have some conversations at
Richard Culatta:
home to mirror some of those? And when you do that, what we
Richard Culatta:
see is that parents often are willing to pick up and run with
Richard Culatta:
that role. They just haven't been given enough of a framework
Richard Culatta:
structure to know how to start those conversations. And there's
Richard Culatta:
a lot of misinformation out there on the interwebs about
Richard Culatta:
this. And so a lot of parents think they're doing the right
Richard Culatta:
thing, they go, I said an hour, two hours, and my kid has two
Richard Culatta:
hours of screen time every day, and you're like, really, what
Richard Culatta:
are they doing? I don't know, but it's two hours aren doing
Richard Culatta:
the right thing. You're like, Nope, you're not, because there
Richard Culatta:
are some things that they shouldn't be spending five
Richard Culatta:
minutes doing, and other things that you could probably spend
Richard Culatta:
even longer than that. And so just helping redirect the parent
Richard Culatta:
energy with some context can be really helpful in actually
Richard Culatta:
taking some of that burden off of the schools because the home
Richard Culatta:
can support it. Richard,
Hiram Cuevas:
I'm so glad you mentioned that partnership,
Hiram Cuevas:
because it's just another chapter in the parents
Hiram Cuevas:
experience about at risk behaviors that they're going to
Hiram Cuevas:
have to deal with with their children at a very young age.
Hiram Cuevas:
You're talking about drugs and alcohol, then you might be
Hiram Cuevas:
talking about fast driving and staying out late, and what games
Hiram Cuevas:
you're playing online, and this is just another piece to that
Hiram Cuevas:
puzzle, and the ongoing conversations are absolutely
Hiram Cuevas:
essential, and you're right, the best schools have that
Hiram Cuevas:
partnership with parents, and they really have developed great
Hiram Cuevas:
relationships with the parents associations, and that can
Hiram Cuevas:
really carry that message out to the broader community.
Richard Culatta:
And Hiram, I think this is such a great
Richard Culatta:
point, because parents in other areas generally do a pretty good
Richard Culatta:
job, right? Yeah, we all have our faults. I have four kids.
Richard Culatta:
There's lots of things I haven't done right, but generally we do
Richard Culatta:
okay. And so I find that often, if we can compare digital well
Richard Culatta:
being to other areas, it also helps lower the burden. So
Richard Culatta:
here's one that I often use. You know, I talk to parents, they
Richard Culatta:
say, Who's responsible for helping their kids be healthy
Richard Culatta:
eaters food well being. We'll just call it that, right? Do you
Richard Culatta:
have food time? Do you come in and set a clock and say you can
Richard Culatta:
eat whatever you want for an hour? You can eat Twinkies for
Richard Culatta:
an hour, but as long as the clock, you'd stop it. No, of
Richard Culatta:
course, you don't. You talk about there are some foods that
Richard Culatta:
have, what is it more value than others? There's broccoli and
Richard Culatta:
chicken, and then there's Twinkies and Doritos. And it
Richard Culatta:
doesn't mean we can't ever eat a Twinkie or a Dorito but, boy, we
Richard Culatta:
better have balance. And when do we know when we're done eating?
Richard Culatta:
Is it because the timer goes off? Or is it because we
Richard Culatta:
recognize that we're feeling full, right? If we talk about
Richard Culatta:
how parents can do that in other areas, they go, oh, yeah, look,
Richard Culatta:
it's the same thing. We're just applying it to our digital diet
Richard Culatta:
as opposed to our food diet.
Christina Lewellen:
That is a fantastic analogy. I don't think
Christina Lewellen:
anyone will forget that absolutely. So let me ask you,
Christina Lewellen:
Richard, I'm curious, what AI tools are you using regularly?
Christina Lewellen:
What kind of captures your curiosity? Right now, I use
Richard Culatta:
every AI tool I can get my hands on. I think
Richard Culatta:
that's actually really important, as an education
Richard Culatta:
leader, that we are testing out a lot of these tools so we can
Richard Culatta:
see what's impressive. You know, I love when we're like, Wow, I
Richard Culatta:
can't believe how cool that is. And then also I'm like, That's
Richard Culatta:
it, right? I think that's important. I really love some of
Richard Culatta:
the image generating tools. I think a lot of times when we
Richard Culatta:
think about AI, we think about text, but I do a lot of
Richard Culatta:
presenting and teaching, and when I do, I generate all of the
Richard Culatta:
images using AI, because you can just get these really awesome,
Richard Culatta:
creative visualizations that you can't get other ways. Recently,
Richard Culatta:
I've been playing with a tool called pika, which is or pika, I
Richard Culatta:
guess, a tool that creates video, generates AI video,
Richard Culatta:
amazing. It's just mind blowing. And then I've been trying to
Richard Culatta:
push myself to use some of the text based tools in ways that
Richard Culatta:
are pushing their bounds a bit more. I worry that sometimes we
Richard Culatta:
slip into using AI like just a search engine, right? Just give
Richard Culatta:
me your answer. Hey, can give answers? Yeah, it's okay. It's
Richard Culatta:
far better when you push the limits on it. So one that I do
Richard Culatta:
is often when I'm presenting and I'll have a big number, right, a
Richard Culatta:
number that's hard to comprehend, how many 1000s of
Richard Culatta:
hours schools use reviewing apps, right? And so one of the
Richard Culatta:
things that I'll do is I'll go into AI and say, Hey, give me
Richard Culatta:
some analogies to help think about how to convey a big number
Richard Culatta:
or a large concept. AI is great at coming up with analogies, so
Richard Culatta:
that's a way that it helps me be able to communicate better. I
Richard Culatta:
also think it's really interesting to use AI as a
Richard Culatta:
feedback tool. So I'll take something that I've written,
Richard Culatta:
I'll put it in there, and I'll ask, you know, if somebody were
Richard Culatta:
to find a flaw in my thinking here, what would it be? And it
Richard Culatta:
gives some really good feedback to that. I speak two languages.
Richard Culatta:
I speak Spanish and I speak fluent Spanish, but I'm not a
Richard Culatta:
native Spanish speaker. And so sometimes I'll take something,
Richard Culatta:
I'll put it in that I've written in Spanish, and I'll say, if you
Richard Culatta:
were going to detect that I was not a native speaker, what about
Richard Culatta:
this thing that I've written would be the clue? Awesome. So
Richard Culatta:
pushing these tools to really give me input and feedback to
Richard Culatta:
improve my performance, actually, I think helps me
Richard Culatta:
become a better human. I love
Christina Lewellen:
that. And as we're winding this down, if a
Christina Lewellen:
school leader comes up to you and kind of sheepishly says, I
Christina Lewellen:
haven't thought about AI, our school's not using it. We don't
Christina Lewellen:
have policies in place? Do you have any recommendations on
Christina Lewellen:
where to start? It's the question I tend to get most
Christina Lewellen:
often. So I'm curious what you would say if a school kind of
Christina Lewellen:
admits to you that they feel behind the ball on this, where
Christina Lewellen:
do they begin? That's
Richard Culatta:
a great question. And I often say this
Richard Culatta:
is a no guilt, no shame space, right? But we do have to get
Richard Culatta:
involved, right? So the worst thing that somebody could do
Richard Culatta:
say, Yeah, I'm gonna sit this AI thing out that will be
Richard Culatta:
detrimental. And so please, please, don't do that. But I
Richard Culatta:
think if you're just getting into it, you know, I would say,
Richard Culatta:
give some time to explore. That's the advice that we give.
Richard Culatta:
Is sometimes schools want to rush right into making policies
Richard Culatta:
right. And policies are really not what we super need here,
Richard Culatta:
right? Some guidance, yes. But if you have a good digital use
Richard Culatta:
policy, if you have a good data privacy policy, honestly, review
Richard Culatta:
them a little bit. But I don't know that you need a special,
Richard Culatta:
separate AI policy. What you need is, sometimes to explore,
Richard Culatta:
and we recommend for school leaders making sure that you're
Richard Culatta:
giving that time to your teams as well. So take a chunk of
Richard Culatta:
time. Maybe you get a two hour faculty meeting. Maybe you say,
Richard Culatta:
hey, instead of doing what we normally do and talking about
Richard Culatta:
stuff, we're going to take this time and we're going to let you
Richard Culatta:
explore how you could use AI to generate assessments that are
Richard Culatta:
more exciting and more aligned to the work that you're doing.
Richard Culatta:
And then just play for a bit, and then come share what's
Richard Culatta:
working and what's not. And so that idea of just starting to
Richard Culatta:
explore is the best thing you can do. And then the next steps
Richard Culatta:
become much more obvious, because you'll see what AI does
Richard Culatta:
well, you'll see where there are problems, and you can start to
Richard Culatta:
build what those conditions are for how you want to use it in
Richard Culatta:
your
Christina Lewellen:
school. Richard, by time we release this
Christina Lewellen:
episode, we'll be in the beginning of 2025 right now we
Christina Lewellen:
record at the end of 2024 as we're all kind of stepping out
Christina Lewellen:
the door. But my final question is, what do you predict for the
Christina Lewellen:
coming year? What do you expect we'll be thinking about and
Christina Lewellen:
talking about in 2025
Richard Culatta:
Wow, that's a great question. I will say what
Richard Culatta:
I predict, and maybe I'm interpreting that as what I hope
Richard Culatta:
maybe I'm manifesting by treating it as one in the same
Christina Lewellen:
nothing wrong with that. I hope and
Christina Lewellen:
predict that we will
Richard Culatta:
have deeper conversations about the
Richard Culatta:
experience of school for students, I feel like we've used
Richard Culatta:
a lot of lenses to help us design our school the
Richard Culatta:
experience, right? We rigor, accountability, state test
Richard Culatta:
scores, and by the way, not that those are bad things, tradition.
Richard Culatta:
And there's another one, right? Those are bad. But there is a
Richard Culatta:
lens that we often forget we often leave off the table, and
Richard Culatta:
that is the lens of student experience. We often design
Richard Culatta:
schools without really prioritizing making it an
Richard Culatta:
amazing experience for students. All of you that are listening to
Richard Culatta:
this, I'm assuming you have some tech expertise, right? Just
Richard Culatta:
given your community. And you know what it feels like when you
Richard Culatta:
pick up a piece of software where there was just no good UX
Richard Culatta:
team, and you click and you click the back button and it
Richard Culatta:
logs out. And you know, you have to read all this sorts of stuff.
Richard Culatta:
You information is hard to find. The menus don't work, right? It
Richard Culatta:
doesn't work on mobile. Those are all UX problems, right? And
Richard Culatta:
we know how you just want to, like, poke your eyes out when
Richard Culatta:
you get software like that. Unfortunately, we have not
Richard Culatta:
prioritized UX of school. And I really hope, and I'm going to do
Richard Culatta:
everything I can do to make this a priority in the coming year,
Richard Culatta:
is say, what would it look like if we designed the school around
Richard Culatta:
an amazing user experience for this student? What if we had
Richard Culatta:
IKEA design our school right now, I don't mean just because
Richard Culatta:
the fur should be cool, but you know what I mean? You know what
Richard Culatta:
I mean, like the walking through an experience, as opposed to
Richard Culatta:
just pulling furniture off of racks. What if we had Disney
Richard Culatta:
designer school or whatever? Think of an experience that
Richard Culatta:
you've had. It feels like a lot of our schools maybe were
Richard Culatta:
designed by the DMV. What I really want to do is think
Richard Culatta:
about, how do we have Disney or IKEA be the designer of our
Richard Culatta:
school, and really pay attention to things like, what does a form
Richard Culatta:
look like and is it written in language that's appropriate for
Richard Culatta:
kids? What does it test look like? And is it test a joyful
Richard Culatta:
experience it should be. There's no reason why assessments
Richard Culatta:
shouldn't be joyful experience. What does our tech look like?
Richard Culatta:
Can I log in with one simple password? Do I have to change my
Richard Culatta:
password every 30 seconds and not hit the back button, because
Richard Culatta:
it's going to explode, right? Going to explode, right? All of
Richard Culatta:
those things turn into creating what the user experience is. And
Richard Culatta:
I think we just need a lot more attention on making sure school
Richard Culatta:
feels more like Disney than like the DMP.
Christina Lewellen:
Richard cullata, every time I spend 40
Christina Lewellen:
minutes with you, I feel inspired for 40 months. So
Christina Lewellen:
hopefully it won't be that long until we speak again, but you
Christina Lewellen:
have been just a delight. Thank you for giving us such
Christina Lewellen:
incredible food for thought, to think through and be inspired
Christina Lewellen:
by. You're doing great work, sir. So keep it up. Stay
Christina Lewellen:
healthy, stay happy, because we need you in this space.
Richard Culatta:
You're very kind. Thank you so much. It's
Richard Culatta:
always a pleasure to get to talk to you, and thank you for the
Richard Culatta:
great work that you and your great group of school leaders
Richard Culatta:
are doing. It's really, really impressive to watch the
Richard Culatta:
innovation that comes out of the independent school sector. We
Richard Culatta:
need that. So please, please, please keep it going.
Christina Lewellen:
We will. You know, we will. Thank you,
Christina Lewellen:
Richard, appreciate you being here.
Peter Frank:
This has been talking technology with Atlas,
Peter Frank:
produced by the Association of Technology Leaders in
Peter Frank:
Independent Schools. For more information about Atlas and
Peter Frank:
Atlas membership, please visit the atlas.org if you enjoyed
Peter Frank:
this discussion, please subscribe, leave a review and
Peter Frank:
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Peter Frank:
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