Leading with Vision: Insights from NAIS President Debra Wilson on the Future of Independent Schools
In this episode, we talk with Debra Wilson, President of NAIS, about the challenges facing independent school leaders today. We explore topics ranging from managing technology and data to navigating complex governance issues and supporting students' well-being.
Resources
- National Association of Independent Schools (NAIS)
- Southern Association of Independent Schools (SAIS)
- Trustee Handbook, resource from NAIS serving as a guide to the fundamentals of good governance from the unique perspective of independent schools
- New View EDU, podcast from NAIS featuring thought leaders from inside and outside the world of education to share their views on the purpose and nature of school
- Debra’s go-to podcasts
- Class Disrupted, with Diane Tavenner and Michael Horn
- EconTalk
- Future U
- The Prof G Pod, with Scott Galloway
- Work Life, with Adam Grant
- Biscuits and Jam, from Southern Living
- Freakonomics
- NPR News Now, the latest news in five minutes
- The Anxious Generation, book by Jonathan Haidt which argues that the spread of smartphones, social media and overprotective parenting have led to a "rewiring" of childhood and a rise in mental illness.
Transcript
Peter Frank:
Phil, welcome to Talking Technology with ATLIS,
Peter Frank:
the show that plugs you into the important topics and trends for
Peter Frank:
technology leaders all through a unique Independent School lens.
Peter Frank:
We'll hear stories from technology directors and other
Peter Frank:
special guests from the Independent School community,
Peter Frank:
and provide you with focused learning and deep dive topics.
Peter Frank:
And now please welcome your host, Kristina Lewellen,
Christina Lewellen:
Hello, and welcome back to talking
Christina Lewellen:
technology with Atlas. I'm Kristina Lewellen, the President
Christina Lewellen:
and CEO of the Association of Technology Leaders in
Christina Lewellen:
Independent Schools.
Bill Stites:
And I am Bill Stites, the Director of
Bill Stites:
Technology at Montclair Kimberly Academy in Montclair, New
Bill Stites:
Jersey. And
Hiram Cuevas:
I'm Hiram Cuevas, Director of Information Systems
Hiram Cuevas:
and Academic Technology at St Christopher school in Richmond,
Hiram Cuevas:
Virginia.
Christina Lewellen:
Hello gentlemen, and welcome back. How
Christina Lewellen:
are you today? I
Hiram Cuevas:
feel like I'd be dodging branches momentarily.
Hiram Cuevas:
The wind's starting to really pick up here in Richmond.
Christina Lewellen:
Yeah, I'm still here at South by Southwest
Christina Lewellen:
in Austin, and I almost blew away walking down the street
Christina Lewellen:
last night for dinner. It was pretty windy here as well.
Unknown:
So you see Hiram.
Bill Stites:
Now it's unfortunate that people can't
Bill Stites:
see you, because now you're cleanly shaved, which is
Bill Stites:
something we haven't had from you in a while. And if trees
Bill Stites:
were coming down, they've come down before. I know you own a
Bill Stites:
chainsaw, you would have been right in lumberjack mode
Bill Stites:
absolutely so you got to grow the beard back, you got to break
Bill Stites:
out the chain saw, and you've got to save Kristina and
Bill Stites:
yourself from any falling branches or whatnot. Absolutely,
Hiram Cuevas:
I'm in. I'm all in. I'll sneeze. Rachel hair
Hiram Cuevas:
appears.
Christina Lewellen:
So before we jump in with our guest, I do
Christina Lewellen:
want to just go to you for a second bill, because we did
Christina Lewellen:
recently, we recorded our Ask Me Anything podcast, and there were
Christina Lewellen:
a bunch of questions. I had a blast with you guys. I don't
Christina Lewellen:
think I've ever laughed so hard. It's a good thing. The mute
Christina Lewellen:
button works really well on this platform, so we had a great time
Christina Lewellen:
with that. But there was a question bill that we didn't get
Christina Lewellen:
to, that we kind of later discovered after we stopped
Christina Lewellen:
recording, and it would have been a great question. It
Christina Lewellen:
pertains to Bill putting together the dream baseball
Christina Lewellen:
lineup. So Bill, I'm going to just give you the mike for just
Christina Lewellen:
a second. I'm going to time you, but go for it.
Bill Stites:
Okay, so I'm going to be very quick. I'll give a
Bill Stites:
little quick backstory, one for listeners that don't know, I've
Bill Stites:
been to all 30 major baseball stadiums in the United States.
Bill Stites:
Trip we took with our family. My son plays college baseball, so
Bill Stites:
it's somewhat relevant. Now, when asked this question in the
Bill Stites:
notes, it said I had to read it like an announcer, which I'm not
Bill Stites:
going to do. But my original thought was just to submit the
Bill Stites:
Looney Tunes, Bugs Bunny episode where it was, you know, first
Bill Stites:
base bug funny. Second base, Bugs Bunny. Shorts up Bugs
Bill Stites:
Bunny. But what my actual list is, okay, is catching. I've got
Bill Stites:
Yogi Berra, okay, first base, I've got Lou Gehrig going
Bill Stites:
classic. Second base, I've got Jackie Robinson, super classic
Bill Stites:
shortstop, I've got Derek Jeter. You can argue that with some
Bill Stites:
people. Third base. This is a straight up Homer pick for me as
Bill Stites:
a Phillies fan. I've got Mike Schmidt, then in left field.
Bill Stites:
I've got Barry Bonds, center field, Ricky Henderson, stealing
Bill Stites:
all the bases fast as you can be. Right field, I've got Mike
Bill Stites:
Trout, D, H Shohei Otani, and then my starting picture is
Bill Stites:
Nolan Ryan, and my closing picture, somewhat of another
Bill Stites:
Homer pick here, growing up and spending time in New Jersey, is
Bill Stites:
Mariano Rivera The Sandman. Nice, that's the lineup. I've
Bill Stites:
got no pink rose. Yeah, you know it's you could argue that with
Bill Stites:
me, and I would be happy going there. All right, fair enough. I
Bill Stites:
love this
Christina Lewellen:
bill. Thank you for sharing that little
Christina Lewellen:
nugget. I'm sorry that we didn't get to that on the Ask Me
Christina Lewellen:
episode, because you really thought that out. I did. You did
Christina Lewellen:
your homework.
Bill Stites:
I did. I read through it, I took notes. I
Bill Stites:
contacted my son. I said, What do you think? Where would you go
Bill Stites:
with this? He interjected a few changes in there, people that I
Bill Stites:
had forgotten about and I got the list. So there you go. Is
Bill Stites:
that Sean? Yes, that is. Sean, awesome.
Christina Lewellen:
Well, thanks Sean for helping dad with his
Christina Lewellen:
homework. Really appreciate it. Shout out to Sean.
Hiram Cuevas:
We now know that Christina knows baseball players
Hiram Cuevas:
more than she knows 5k runners.
Christina Lewellen:
That was rough. That was brutal, Hiram,
Christina Lewellen:
but I appreciated your answer as well. Well, hey guys, today
Christina Lewellen:
we're really excited. We have a very special guest from the
Christina Lewellen:
independent school community. I think just about everybody has
Christina Lewellen:
to know. Deborah Wilson. Deborah Wilson, thank you. You are the
Christina Lewellen:
president of NAIS, the National Association of Independent
Christina Lewellen:
Schools. We are so glad that you made time to join us. Thank you
Christina Lewellen:
very, very much. I
Unknown:
am thrilled to be here. I can't wait to hear where this
Unknown:
conversation goes. Give him the kick off around baseball. And I
Unknown:
have to say, that's a weak spot for me. Don't
Christina Lewellen:
worry. I'll protect you from all of the
Christina Lewellen:
sports metaphors and the zombie references when they start, just
Christina Lewellen:
not in. Mile. It ends usually within about 20 or 30 seconds.
Christina Lewellen:
I'm
Unknown:
good for the zombie apocalypse. We can go there all
Unknown:
day long.
Christina Lewellen:
Oh no. Haha.
Unknown:
Christina, haha.
Hiram Cuevas:
Deborah, okay. Deborah, what is your melee
Hiram Cuevas:
weapon of choice?
Debra Wilson:
You know, I haven't got my deep what's
Debra Wilson:
yours? Hiram, what's your melee weapon of choice?
Hiram Cuevas:
It's from World War Z and it's called the Lobo.
Hiram Cuevas:
It's essentially the pike with like a shovel end on it.
Bill Stites:
I generally go samurai sword. I want to be like
Bill Stites:
Michonne from The Walking Dead. I want to have the samurai
Bill Stites:
sword. I'm
Unknown:
probably more sword than anything super technical,
Unknown:
mostly because when I've played any games and whatnot with my
Unknown:
kids, I do better with those kinds of weaponry.
Hiram Cuevas:
Suffice to say, we are all saving Christina. We
Bill Stites:
are we're circling around Kristina because Kristina
Bill Stites:
is useless in the zombie apocalypse. Yeah,
Christina Lewellen:
all I got is the OG Buffy, the Vampire Slayer
Christina Lewellen:
reference, with the can of hair spray and the lighter, that's
Christina Lewellen:
all I got.
Bill Stites:
That would work. That would work. Buffy
Debra Wilson:
is one of my strengths, too. Kristina, you
Debra Wilson:
want to talk about the hell mouth any day like I'm in. I
Debra Wilson:
love this. You
Bill Stites:
gotta go with Aqua net, though, because that had
Bill Stites:
such a high flame content that it was the can of choice. Well,
Christina Lewellen:
we have gotten off to a very interesting
Christina Lewellen:
start. Poor Deborah, you actually are much, much smarter
Christina Lewellen:
than this conversation has walked us down the path. But
Christina Lewellen:
please take a moment and kind of tell everybody your background.
Christina Lewellen:
You've been the president now of NAIS for a while. You've spent
Christina Lewellen:
part of your career there. So you returned to NAIS. Can you
Christina Lewellen:
give everybody a sense of your professional journey, in
Christina Lewellen:
particular in the independent school
Debra Wilson:
space? Rolling back to baseball, momentarily, I
Debra Wilson:
grew up in southeastern Connecticut, so Red Sox fans
Debra Wilson:
would note that I grew up on the correct side of the Connecticut
Debra Wilson:
line. Connecticut, as you might know, is a fierce battleground
Debra Wilson:
between Yankees and Red Sox, and my family has gone heavy heavy
Debra Wilson:
Red Sox, at least until my younger sister moved to New York
Debra Wilson:
City, and she sends us mocking photos of her kids dressed up in
Debra Wilson:
Yankee gear. So I went to the Williams school on Connecticut
Debra Wilson:
College campus. That was actually my sort of initial
Debra Wilson:
introduction to independent schools. My parents were both
Debra Wilson:
first generation college graduates, and education was
Debra Wilson:
incredibly important to them, so I went to the Williams school. I
Debra Wilson:
went to college and went to law school. I started off briefly
Debra Wilson:
working at DOJ, doing tax litigation, believe it or not,
Debra Wilson:
of all things, I'm a little bit policy wonky and regulatory law.
Debra Wilson:
I really enjoy because a lot of times you can find an answer
Debra Wilson:
unlike other parts of the law. And while I was doing that, I
Debra Wilson:
realized, like, you know, I can do this, but do I really want to
Debra Wilson:
do this? I'm sort of a purpose junkie. I think a lot of people
Debra Wilson:
in education are sort of purpose junkies. We go into education
Debra Wilson:
because we really believe in it. And I'm from a big education
Debra Wilson:
family. My mom has a PhD in nursing research, and so even
Debra Wilson:
when I was little, she actually taught nursing at a local
Debra Wilson:
community college, and her students would practice doing
Debra Wilson:
different wraps and bandages and things on us, which we thought
Debra Wilson:
was fabulous. That was big fun for us when we were kids. And my
Debra Wilson:
stepmother actually taught in the Connecticut public school
Debra Wilson:
systems for over 30 years, primarily in special education.
Debra Wilson:
So lot of education focus growing up. So I started looking
Debra Wilson:
around, and NAIS was actually looking for somebody to do
Debra Wilson:
regulatory work. So that was what they first hired me to do.
Debra Wilson:
And as I got in there, you know, I was the first lawyer that NAIS
Debra Wilson:
had ever hired. And I started doing more support of the in
Debra Wilson:
house legal work and getting into, you know, filing briefs in
Debra Wilson:
different cases and things like that. And so just like in any
Debra Wilson:
good independent school, my job kind of grew with me as I took
Debra Wilson:
on more responsibilities. So I ended up being at NAIS that
Debra Wilson:
first time for almost 19 years. And during that time, you know,
Debra Wilson:
I went from obviously doing regulatory work to supporting
Debra Wilson:
the in house work to writing a lot more white papers,
Debra Wilson:
coordinating with outside lawyers. There some things that
Debra Wilson:
I just do not get in the weeds with like ERISA law would be one
Debra Wilson:
of those things, those kinds of pieces. So really kind of doing
Debra Wilson:
or coordinating all of the legal work, both for the organization
Debra Wilson:
and then looking at the sector. But during that time, also I
Debra Wilson:
branched out too into governance. So I co authored the
Debra Wilson:
trustee handbook with Donna Oram, and we did a total
Debra Wilson:
overhaul of it, and then starting around 2010 2011 I
Debra Wilson:
started getting a lot of calls about really student related
Debra Wilson:
issues that went beyond the norm. So a lot of calls about
Debra Wilson:
student anxiety, depression, students looking to take leaves
Debra Wilson:
for mental health purposes. And pretty scary. Things. So more
Debra Wilson:
calls about student suicides, of course, advent of technology, a
Debra Wilson:
lot of sextortion, the initial advent of sexting and all kinds
Debra Wilson:
of things. So it really led me to dive more deeply into student
Debra Wilson:
health and wellness. And now I know everybody listening has
Debra Wilson:
probably at least heard of, if not, read the anxious
Debra Wilson:
generation. So it was sort of the beginning of that. And then
Debra Wilson:
at the Southern Association of Independent Schools, my friend
Debra Wilson:
Kirk Walker was finally retiring, after being ahead of
Debra Wilson:
school and then being at SAIS. And so I kind of wanted to
Debra Wilson:
branch out a little bit. So I applied for that position, and I
Debra Wilson:
was the president there, starting in 2019 through COVID,
Debra Wilson:
and then I started at NAIS in August of 2023 as the president
Debra Wilson:
of NAIS. So that's kind of how I ended up where I am today, and
Debra Wilson:
it's been fun to be back at NAIS. Obviously, I'm working
Debra Wilson:
with colleagues that I worked with for a long time, but then
Debra Wilson:
we also have a lot of new faces around the table too, which is
Debra Wilson:
fun and energizing.
Christina Lewellen:
That's really great. So you're coming
Christina Lewellen:
up on two years back at NAIS, tell me a little bit. I'm so
Christina Lewellen:
curious to know what your day is like.
Debra Wilson:
I'm really curious to know that too. Kristina, my
Debra Wilson:
days look like. So I always set aside time every morning and
Debra Wilson:
then around midday, in case crisis calls come in. Because I
Debra Wilson:
find my days can get very, very booked when I'm having a normal
Debra Wilson:
day, when I'm having like a not traveling kind of day, I'll
Debra Wilson:
either listen to podcasts while walking the dogs in the morning
Debra Wilson:
or starting as early as 730 and might do crisis calls with
Debra Wilson:
school leaders of all kinds. So could be heads of schools,
Debra Wilson:
associate heads, technology directors, development people,
Debra Wilson:
people from other associations, you name it, and it kind of
Debra Wilson:
flows from there. So I try to set aside thinking time in the
Debra Wilson:
morning. I think better in the morning. I don't know if you all
Debra Wilson:
sort of set up your days optimally, but I find if I don't
Debra Wilson:
claim time, then I'm going to struggle. So I try to set aside
Debra Wilson:
at least a little time to do some writing, do some reading,
Debra Wilson:
to catch up on things. And then often, my days can be kind of
Debra Wilson:
taken over by just a lot of different meetings. What's going
Debra Wilson:
on with the Association, what might be happening with
Debra Wilson:
different schools, moving different initiatives forward.
Debra Wilson:
And so my afternoons, my my lull in my brain is at about two
Debra Wilson:
o'clock. And so I almost always try to have a meeting at two
Debra Wilson:
o'clock, because otherwise I just know I'm not as focused as
Debra Wilson:
I might be. I do a ton of speaking. So there's usually a
Debra Wilson:
couple days during the week where I'm doing some kind of a
Debra Wilson:
webinar or some kind of a podcast. I travel almost every
Debra Wilson:
week during my busy time. So between this time last year and
Debra Wilson:
I know because we're just coming off of our annual conference,
Debra Wilson:
between this time last year and this year, like I've gone about
Debra Wilson:
330,000 miles, traveling around the country, speaking at
Debra Wilson:
different events and visiting different schools. So none of my
Debra Wilson:
weeks look the same from week to week. It's nice when I can
Debra Wilson:
actually be home for a full week. That's exciting, when I
Debra Wilson:
can spend, you know, seven nights in my own bed. That's a
Debra Wilson:
big plus.
Christina Lewellen:
Yeah, that's a rarity, too, at certain times
Christina Lewellen:
of the year around the independent school space. So I
Christina Lewellen:
know that feeling for sure, is there a way especially I think
Christina Lewellen:
about like, what I would feel like if I had a first thing in
Christina Lewellen:
the morning crisis call almost every day you're taking and
Christina Lewellen:
receiving a lot of stress. My sister is a psych nurse
Christina Lewellen:
practitioner, and I kind of wonder like, where do you put
Christina Lewellen:
all of that energy, you know, that comes at you? How do you
Christina Lewellen:
let that go from your own world and your own body, is it hard to
Christina Lewellen:
start your day with knowing that you're setting aside time to
Christina Lewellen:
help put out a fire? So
Debra Wilson:
that's a really interesting question. I think it
Debra Wilson:
depends on the type of fire. I mean, I've been helping schools
Debra Wilson:
manage school crises for almost 25 years, so I've had a lot of
Debra Wilson:
these phone calls over time, and it's something that I love,
Debra Wilson:
because it's something tangible that I can do to help people
Debra Wilson:
talk through things and help them either find the right
Debra Wilson:
person, find the right resource to talk them through it, or just
Debra Wilson:
talk them through like, what are the different avenues that you
Debra Wilson:
can go down? And so, you know, some things are like a really
Debra Wilson:
big crisis, and those are really hard, and those are emotionally
Debra Wilson:
difficult. Some of them are just people kind of saying, I'm
Debra Wilson:
dealing with something really complex. And can you help me
Debra Wilson:
sort of see through this a little bit? And I think we all
Debra Wilson:
really value having somebody to reach out to and talk through
Debra Wilson:
that a little bit and just talk through the different angles. I
Debra Wilson:
think I what I bring to the tables. I help people back up a
Debra Wilson:
little bit and think about it from a risk management
Debra Wilson:
standpoint, kind of once a lawyer, always a lawyer. And
Debra Wilson:
just think about like, not just how do you manage that moment,
Debra Wilson:
but then how do you go back and say, okay, like, where might we
Debra Wilson:
tweak our policies, our procedures, our programs? Do we
Debra Wilson:
need different skills around the table to help us make. Manage
Debra Wilson:
this from the front end. I mean, ideally, I help schools prevent
Debra Wilson:
a crisis rather than deal with a crisis. We're all pretty
Debra Wilson:
experienced at managing a crisis, but ideally you want to
Debra Wilson:
go back and be like, okay, like, let's make sure that doesn't
Debra Wilson:
happen again. So what has to now? What we should be thinking
Debra Wilson:
about? So I've done it for so long. I'm sure I absorb a lot of
Debra Wilson:
things, but it doesn't set me back a whole lot in my head when
Debra Wilson:
I'm talking to people that way. But there are definitely times
Debra Wilson:
like during COVID, I think was really hard. That was really for
Debra Wilson:
everybody, very emotionally draining, just trying to figure
Debra Wilson:
out, how can we do the best thing for kids, you know, and
Debra Wilson:
have good because of sort of comprehensive communities
Debra Wilson:
engaging in that That, to me, was the most exhausting time. So
Debra Wilson:
when I look at now, I mean, there are exhausting things
Debra Wilson:
about now too, but nothing like we had back then. I don't know,
Debra Wilson:
maybe it's all relative in my head at this point. So
Christina Lewellen:
before we kind of zoom in on your thoughts
Christina Lewellen:
around technology, which I would love to get to. I'm sure the
Christina Lewellen:
guys would too. I want to zoom out for just a second, because
Christina Lewellen:
it is unique that we have you as a prominent leader in the
Christina Lewellen:
independent school space. I think we would be remiss if we
Christina Lewellen:
didn't pause for a moment and ask you big picture, what are
Christina Lewellen:
some of the things that you're talking about the most. What are
Christina Lewellen:
some of the issues that you're wrestling? You know, when you
Christina Lewellen:
have that time to read and think, what are the things that
Christina Lewellen:
you think are kind of at the tip of the tongue of most
Christina Lewellen:
independent school leaders right now?
Debra Wilson:
Yeah, I mean, I think right now, obviously
Debra Wilson:
there's a lot of material coming out of DC, and so there's a lot
Debra Wilson:
of questions. I've heard people sort of jokingly say they're
Debra Wilson:
getting, you know, their law degree on the side, just sort of
Debra Wilson:
reading different materials that are coming out of either through
Debra Wilson:
executive orders or dear colleague letters and things
Debra Wilson:
like that. So, you know, really talking with schools about like,
Debra Wilson:
how do you center on your mission vision and values right
Debra Wilson:
now and provide consistency in the school community. We've been
Debra Wilson:
talking a lot about the Overton window and how the Overton
Debra Wilson:
Window is shifting right now on this the Overton Window is sort
Debra Wilson:
of this idea that norms shift over time, and so what might
Debra Wilson:
have been seen as radical and doesn't even necessarily have to
Debra Wilson:
be in, like, a political idea, just sort of like, you know,
Debra Wilson:
sort of a cultural concept. What could have been seen as radical
Debra Wilson:
a couple months ago was less radical now, or what wasn't
Debra Wilson:
radical before is now radical. And so, like, how do you
Debra Wilson:
understand where your community is and what it needs in the
Debra Wilson:
moment is really where a lot of school leaders are? And I think
Debra Wilson:
some of it, you know, kind of getting into our technology
Debra Wilson:
conversation. It's not dissimilar, right? Like, when
Debra Wilson:
you have so much change in technology, with the advent of
Debra Wilson:
AI and people feeling sort of disrupted, right? Like, what are
Debra Wilson:
all these new tools? And where is it going? We're creating so
Debra Wilson:
much data and big data and small data, and how do we do these
Debra Wilson:
things, getting people to sort of say, like, what's right for
Debra Wilson:
your community right now in light of what you know, and
Debra Wilson:
you're never going to know everything you want to know. So
Debra Wilson:
how do you strategize with less than perfect information? Like,
Debra Wilson:
that's where a lot of leaders are right now and again, making
Debra Wilson:
sure that schools are centering on students not to get too
Debra Wilson:
distracted by everything outside and saying, like, okay, all kids
Debra Wilson:
have one shot at education. That's it. You don't generally
Debra Wilson:
get to do third grade twice. And so how are we creating healthy,
Debra Wilson:
stable environments for kids and really focusing on our mission
Debra Wilson:
in that way, particularly in a time of so much change?
Bill Stites:
So in the mornings, you mentioned listening to
Bill Stites:
podcasts, and new view edu is in my steady rotation of podcast
Bill Stites:
listen. So thank you for keeping that going and keeping that up.
Bill Stites:
It's a must listen for me. But my question for you, and this is
Bill Stites:
on a somewhat of a lighter note, what are the podcasts that
Bill Stites:
you're listening to in the morning. You know my time to
Bill Stites:
listen to podcasts is when I'm driving to and from the gym
Bill Stites:
first thing in the morning, when I get it all in, listening at
Bill Stites:
one and a half speed so I can click through them all. But what
Debra Wilson:
are your top choices? I love that one and a
Debra Wilson:
half speed concept. I almost always listen to NPRs, whatever
Debra Wilson:
their succinct thing is in the morning, just because it lets me
Debra Wilson:
know what's been happening while I've been sleeping. I also
Debra Wilson:
listen to future you with Michael Horn and Jeff selingo
Debra Wilson:
quite frequently. I listen to Scott Galloway quite a bit,
Debra Wilson:
which is kind of fun. He's a little colorful for some folks.
Christina Lewellen:
I love it. Though he is a straight shooter.
Christina Lewellen:
I love him. Yeah,
Debra Wilson:
he's not messing around, and he's not afraid to
Debra Wilson:
be unpopular. I do listen to Freakonomics Radio sometimes,
Debra Wilson:
like I kind of have sort of a running library, and I kind of
Debra Wilson:
look to see what's in there. Biscuits and jam is kind of fun.
Debra Wilson:
It's through Southern Living, and I got to know the editor. Of
Debra Wilson:
Southern Living a few years ago, and then work life with Adam
Debra Wilson:
Grant is another one. Sometimes you can get me kind of dorky out
Debra Wilson:
a little bit with econ talk, which is sort of a fun one, and
Debra Wilson:
class disrupted before. I think they're off at least. I haven't
Debra Wilson:
heard much from them in a while. I was on a big class disrupted
Debra Wilson:
thing for a number of years, and that, I don't know, sometime in
Debra Wilson:
the last eight months that fell off for me a little bit. But it
Debra Wilson:
might be that, like so many other podcasts I was listening
Debra Wilson:
to, kind of double down, as you know, once it once it works down
Debra Wilson:
in your library like you kind of, you don't forget about it,
Debra Wilson:
but other stuff pops up. Thank you. All right, so now,
Christina Lewellen:
Deborah, let's zoom in a little bit now
Christina Lewellen:
to like some of the technology issues that you're thinking
Christina Lewellen:
about and talking about. It sounds like you were mentally
Christina Lewellen:
tapped into technology a while ago in your first run with NAIS.
Christina Lewellen:
As you mentioned, you were thinking about student health
Christina Lewellen:
and wellness, thinking about the terrible things of sexting and
Christina Lewellen:
probably cyber bullying and all of that nonsense. But obviously,
Christina Lewellen:
technology is just everywhere, touching everything at all times
Christina Lewellen:
at independent schools, and now we have aI issues layered on top
Christina Lewellen:
of that. So I'd like to just kind of hear your thoughts about
Christina Lewellen:
where things stand with technology. Obviously, from the
Christina Lewellen:
Atlas standpoint, we believe that technology has become a
Christina Lewellen:
specialization within independent schools because of
Christina Lewellen:
the fact that it can certainly unlock the mission of a school.
Christina Lewellen:
It can be a tool to accomplishing the competitive
Christina Lewellen:
differentiation that we're all swimming toward. But then there
Christina Lewellen:
are these risk mitigation issues that go far beyond keeping the
Christina Lewellen:
network room up and running like it's so complicated it's the
Christina Lewellen:
spider web of things, and because of that, Atlas really
Christina Lewellen:
approaches technology as if it's this very layered and nuanced
Christina Lewellen:
thing that is quite specific to independent schools. So I'm
Christina Lewellen:
curious what your thoughts are and how you've seen that evolve
Debra Wilson:
over time. When you think back to, like, what
Debra Wilson:
technology looked like 25 years ago, I mean, you still, like,
Debra Wilson:
you had a lot of tech carts around. And now, when you think
Debra Wilson:
about everything, from just when you're building the new school,
Debra Wilson:
what are you building for, from a technology standpoint, right?
Debra Wilson:
Like, how does all of that work? Or if you're retrofitting an old
Debra Wilson:
building and managing that to what's going to happen with
Debra Wilson:
really big data out there schools, as they're building
Debra Wilson:
their own LMS is that have aI chat bots and like, they're
Debra Wilson:
really studying student engagement in different lessons
Debra Wilson:
through those LMS systems. Like, how are we guarding that data?
Debra Wilson:
How are we thinking about that data? How are we using that data
Debra Wilson:
responsibly, it all kind of smears together, right? Like
Debra Wilson:
it's no longer these siloed, standalone pieces. And I think
Debra Wilson:
people within schools, and we certainly have this in our own
Debra Wilson:
Association, people within schools are asking more of
Debra Wilson:
technology and more from the data we're collecting, so that
Debra Wilson:
nothing is resting by itself anymore, and how you're making
Debra Wilson:
choices about what tools your school is adopting, who's making
Debra Wilson:
those choices, and if they're delivering on the usability like
Debra Wilson:
those are all big things. I think that technology has become
Debra Wilson:
so much more central to almost every conversation, and
Debra Wilson:
certainly more and more of a seat at the table because you
Debra Wilson:
want to be using the right tools and doing things the right way,
Debra Wilson:
but also it's really expensive when you do things either
Debra Wilson:
improperly, poorly or in an uneducated kind of way, those
Debra Wilson:
can be really big mistakes. So one of the things that I think
Debra Wilson:
some schools struggle with a little bit is like, Where does
Debra Wilson:
this now fit in, into conversations around pedagogy
Debra Wilson:
into conversations around operations, right? Like, how
Debra Wilson:
does all this technology work together? It's no longer just,
Debra Wilson:
are we in an apple or a PC school? It's really about like,
Debra Wilson:
how does ADP talk with this system, to the system that we've
Debra Wilson:
built to track substitute teachers, to everything else.
Debra Wilson:
How does it all work together? There's a lot riding on those
Debra Wilson:
decisions, and particularly like how we work with external
Debra Wilson:
vendors who help us do the everyday business of schools.
Unknown:
So
Hiram Cuevas:
Deborah, how has the curriculum changed? For
Hiram Cuevas:
example, in the aspiring heads track that NAIS provides in
Hiram Cuevas:
terms of getting to the root of many of the questions and the
Hiram Cuevas:
scenarios that you've just described, so that aspiring
Hiram Cuevas:
heads recognize the importance of tech and make sure that they
Hiram Cuevas:
serve as that partner for the head of school so that they can
Hiram Cuevas:
make those data driven decisions.
Debra Wilson:
Yeah. I mean, I think it's getting all of those
Debra Wilson:
leadership programs, you know, they evolve every year to say,
Debra Wilson:
like, Okay, what's more central, what's actually really great
Debra Wilson:
about aspiring heads is you get a lot more technology people in
Debra Wilson:
aspiring heads now than you would have seen a few years ago.
Debra Wilson:
So they actually. Wave a lot of flags, like, hey, like, you
Debra Wilson:
should know more about this. And we're definitely talking more
Debra Wilson:
about just that strategic vision, and how do we look
Debra Wilson:
forward? So when you're really talking about people who are
Debra Wilson:
aspiring to headship understanding that piece of it,
Debra Wilson:
so that, when they're thinking strategically forward, how are
Debra Wilson:
they building in that technology piece to it, I mean to me. And
Debra Wilson:
one of the things that I talk about a lot with heads and
Debra Wilson:
aspiring heads on the road is you have to think about that
Debra Wilson:
long term piece and strategically, where is
Debra Wilson:
technology going to play into it? Even when you have staff
Debra Wilson:
turnover, it's always a question of, okay, like, what does this
Debra Wilson:
person do? How does technology there supplement this role, or
Debra Wilson:
where might technology be taking some pieces of this role off the
Debra Wilson:
table so that we can reconfigure a bit how we're working within
Debra Wilson:
the school. And if you're not proactively thinking about that,
Debra Wilson:
you're probably missing the boat. Now you're definitely
Debra Wilson:
going to be missing the boat in, say, three to five years. As
Debra Wilson:
technology becomes bigger, AI becomes more relevant and
Debra Wilson:
central to everything that we do. So you know, I think you're
Debra Wilson:
seeing those programs evolve more that way. As an
Debra Wilson:
organization, we're doing more work around AI, both in terms of
Debra Wilson:
what we do internally and what we're thinking about, and just
Debra Wilson:
the tools we provide to schools how AI can supplement those, but
Debra Wilson:
just also talking more with school leaders and making them
Debra Wilson:
more aware of what's out there and how they should be
Debra Wilson:
proactively thinking about that when they're looking forward.
Debra Wilson:
Deborah,
Christina Lewellen:
if I could ask you to Pete a picture of an
Christina Lewellen:
ideal school head for today. What does that look like? What
Christina Lewellen:
characteristics makes for a good head of school? And my question
Christina Lewellen:
comes from a place of empathy and awe, because it seems like a
Christina Lewellen:
really difficult job, and there's no way that one human
Christina Lewellen:
can have all of this expertise in these complicated scenarios.
Christina Lewellen:
So how do you paint the picture of an optimized Head of School?
Debra Wilson:
Yeah, I love that question. I do think it depends
Debra Wilson:
on the school. I mean, the first piece is, if you are personally
Debra Wilson:
aligned with the mission, vision and values of the school, that
Debra Wilson:
has always been pretty crucial. But you know, they always say
Debra Wilson:
you can't change your spouse, right? You can't change your
Debra Wilson:
partner. You're not going to fundamentally change that. And
Debra Wilson:
my refrain from that is, if you think that's hard, try to change
Debra Wilson:
the DNA of a school. So like, if you're not aligned there, and
Debra Wilson:
that varies, right? Like, even schools where the mission,
Debra Wilson:
vision values kind of sounds the same between institutions, they
Debra Wilson:
don't play out the same way. The culture is not the same between
Debra Wilson:
schools. And you can do culture shifts, but you're not, I don't
Debra Wilson:
think you're going to fundamentally overhaul a
Debra Wilson:
school's culture, at least not in a very short period of time.
Debra Wilson:
So that's like the first piece, is that alignment piece? The
Debra Wilson:
second is, it's actually something that I worry about,
Debra Wilson:
that we're losing with the heads who are retiring right now, is
Debra Wilson:
that that ability to, like, take a beat and process this sort of
Debra Wilson:
Shoot first, ask questions later. Thing doesn't work very
Debra Wilson:
well in our schools, in the nonprofit space. So just how do
Debra Wilson:
you encourage people to just like, pause for a minute, take a
Debra Wilson:
step back and really look at okay, like, what's our process
Debra Wilson:
here? What are our procedures here? How do those reflect the
Debra Wilson:
mission, vision and values in risk goals, so that they're
Debra Wilson:
acting consistently. It's so hard in a time that feels just
Debra Wilson:
so pressurized and so fractured, it can be hard to wait a minute,
Debra Wilson:
because you're getting a lot of pile on all at the same time,
Debra Wilson:
depending on what the crisis is. So that would be my second one,
Debra Wilson:
like just that ability to step back and really understand that
Debra Wilson:
bigger picture for a moment, speaking across difference,
Debra Wilson:
speaking across different constituencies, and that empathy
Debra Wilson:
lens of like, how do I understand where this other
Debra Wilson:
person is coming from and what they're telling me? We know that
Debra Wilson:
polarization is growing on our campus. It can be pretty big
Debra Wilson:
between our faculty and our parents. It can be really big
Debra Wilson:
among the parent body. Like there's just, there's a lot of
Debra Wilson:
different constituencies that need to be managed, and you can
Debra Wilson:
have different groups within those constituencies that also
Debra Wilson:
make it pretty complex. So that ability to kind of be a
Debra Wilson:
diplomat, to be an ambassador, but also to be an authentic one,
Debra Wilson:
so that the community really believes in what you're doing
Debra Wilson:
and that you're hearing people and you're trying to navigate
Debra Wilson:
the best path forward, I think that's going to consistently be
Debra Wilson:
a trait that people really need to manage. And to your point,
Debra Wilson:
Kristina, about one person not being able to do it all like
Debra Wilson:
somebody I can build trusting teams and really use distributed
Debra Wilson:
leadership, and it's so hard to do that, particularly when the
Debra Wilson:
schools in crisis, like, you know, the leader necessarily
Debra Wilson:
goes from maybe flying at 20,000 feet to flying at 5000 feet. So
Debra Wilson:
how do you build a trusting team? How do you trust that
Debra Wilson:
team? And then, how do you really use that team
Debra Wilson:
effectively? I think, is incredibly crucial. Like you
Debra Wilson:
can't manage this by yourself anymore in your. Head. You know,
Debra Wilson:
25 years ago, you could still sort of do that, but now that's
Debra Wilson:
just a ship people have heard about in terms of day to day and
Debra Wilson:
the bigger your school, the more complex your school, the more
Debra Wilson:
important that is. I was talking with a former head the other
Debra Wilson:
day, and he pointed out, you know, one of the problems with
Debra Wilson:
being a leader is you have less control over the day today, but
Debra Wilson:
you're still accountable for everything that happens in your
Debra Wilson:
institution, right? So it's an interesting kind of dichotomy of
Debra Wilson:
leadership that you don't actually get to do as much as
Debra Wilson:
you used to do depending on what roles you held before, but
Debra Wilson:
you're still accountable for what happens. So building those
Debra Wilson:
trusting teams, building that understanding, I think, is
Debra Wilson:
really key. I mean, I could go on this list for a long time,
Debra Wilson:
but I'll stop after this next one, understanding the business
Debra Wilson:
of schools, having a business awareness of how schools run
Debra Wilson:
operationally, and that includes technology, it includes budget,
Debra Wilson:
and includes the impact of financial aid, or, you know,
Debra Wilson:
other tuition offsets, like how All of those things play
Debra Wilson:
together, what your levers are and understanding running a
Debra Wilson:
school. I was talking to a former head the other day, and
Debra Wilson:
he was just talking about the fundamental importance of
Debra Wilson:
understanding what goes into maintaining a campus. Just the
Debra Wilson:
business side of maintaining a campus, right, including
Debra Wilson:
technology. I know people listening can't see Bill and
Debra Wilson:
Kristina both like nodding their heads. You know, you have to
Debra Wilson:
budget for upgrading technology. You have to budget for the roof.
Debra Wilson:
We have some schools that they're incredibly old campuses.
Debra Wilson:
Some of them are historic sites, just understanding the business
Debra Wilson:
operations of maintaining that, setting that money aside so
Debra Wilson:
you've got the budget for it and what it takes to do that you
Debra Wilson:
can't ignore that. You can't basically say, you know, I'm
Debra Wilson:
sorry, I'm not a numbers person. You have to be a numbers person
Debra Wilson:
if you're in a school leadership role these days, lot
Bill Stites:
of the conversation has been around, what are the
Bill Stites:
problems that we're trying to solve? How we manage in crisis?
Bill Stites:
You know, you mentioned your morning. You know, you leave
Bill Stites:
time open your morning to deal with those things, and honestly
Bill Stites:
say that that aligns a lot with what we deal with in tech,
Bill Stites:
because you never know what broker blew up or where do we
Bill Stites:
have a water leak that's now like dripping on equipment. You
Bill Stites:
know, all of those things. Every day I come in and I just have my
Bill Stites:
fingers crossed that I'm going to be able to sit at my desk and
Bill Stites:
get to the work of leadership. The question I have for you,
Bill Stites:
because again, I think we're in similar boats here is there's
Bill Stites:
the day to day crisis mitigation work that we do. We talked on a
Bill Stites:
recent show about mitigating burnout, and how do you stay
Bill Stites:
fresh? And the crisis stuff can definitely weigh you down, but
Bill Stites:
it's the leadership stuff you were talking about the aspiring
Bill Stites:
heads program. Talk about the work that I've done and we've
Bill Stites:
done here with Atlas, whether it's T list or the conference or
Bill Stites:
this podcast, these are the things that excite me, because
Bill Stites:
they're the leadership opportunities that we have in
Bill Stites:
these areas. So how do you balance that out between the
Bill Stites:
idea of dealing with the crisis that comes up, but also having
Bill Stites:
that ongoing spark to continue to want to lead. And the second
Bill Stites:
part of that is, what are the things that you're working on
Bill Stites:
now in that area of leadership that really are exciting you so
Bill Stites:
where's the balance? And then what do you like? Yeah,
Debra Wilson:
I mean, I guess I love those things that are
Debra Wilson:
Spark, like I love having conversations like these.
Debra Wilson:
They're fun and remind you of the bigger space you work in. I
Debra Wilson:
never lose track of the fact that there really aren't many
Debra Wilson:
Tadas by the time I hit a TA DA like, whether it's a conference
Debra Wilson:
or some big thing gets launched, I've already moved on to the
Debra Wilson:
next thing. I am very aware that really good work happens in
Debra Wilson:
small increments, day after day, and that can be a lot of
Debra Wilson:
leadership. There are very few moments where you're like, look
Debra Wilson:
at me lead those things, right? Where you can, like, look at a
Debra Wilson:
week or a month, and you can be like, we had no systems outages
Debra Wilson:
whatsoever in this month, right? Like we have hit some finely
Debra Wilson:
tuned place where things are happening really well. So I do
Debra Wilson:
think about that and it just when I'm having, I don't know
Debra Wilson:
maybe it's like a boring streak. I reflect on that a lot like,
Debra Wilson:
what have we been doing? Well, day over day that provides
Debra Wilson:
consistency, stability and we're working towards our goals. I
Debra Wilson:
take a lot of pleasure in that, because I think it's a sign of a
Debra Wilson:
good leader. If those things are happening in terms of exciting
Debra Wilson:
stuff, I always try to have a couple things going on that are
Debra Wilson:
really exciting, while also recognizing, from my current
Debra Wilson:
position, I can't be the juggernaut. So it's hard for me
Debra Wilson:
to be in charge of many things right now, because so many
Debra Wilson:
things kind of come up to me that if I'm specifically taking
Debra Wilson:
ownership of a project or two, I can actually become an obstacle
Debra Wilson:
because I'm traveling and doing the other stuff. So balancing
Debra Wilson:
that out and partnering with like my VPS or my management
Debra Wilson:
team around specific projects, I find really exciting. We're
Debra Wilson:
working on a couple different projects right now that I think
Debra Wilson:
are really exciting. One is sort of an initial grant from E Ford
Debra Wilson:
that's tracking the impact of our. Schools on students from
Debra Wilson:
low income families, and looking initially at, where are they
Debra Wilson:
going to school, and getting into how are they doing in
Debra Wilson:
school. We're hoping to open that up over time to helping
Debra Wilson:
schools track their alums, so both like from a young alum
Debra Wilson:
perspective and beyond and saying, like, okay, like, how
Debra Wilson:
can we see the impact of our schools? What are our alums
Debra Wilson:
reporting to us overall? And there's exciting things
Debra Wilson:
happening in other parts of the industry that could really lead
Debra Wilson:
schools to be able to understand the entire student journey, from
Debra Wilson:
when kids are pretty young all the way up through college and
Debra Wilson:
beyond, to say, like, Okay, how are our kids doing? How are they
Debra Wilson:
doing within our schools, and then how are they doing in life
Debra Wilson:
beyond it? And so that, to me, is kind of big, cool, Legacy
Debra Wilson:
type stuff.
Christina Lewellen:
I love that that's very cool. And it kind of
Christina Lewellen:
like speaks to the Scott Galloway vibes, right, where he
Christina Lewellen:
feels like education is one of the primary ways that we can
Christina Lewellen:
unlock social mobility, especially socio economic
Christina Lewellen:
mobility in this country. I love that you guys are doing that.
Debra Wilson:
Yeah, no, it's very cool, right? And it feeds
Debra Wilson:
into, like, chatty work at Harvard, around network and
Debra Wilson:
things like that. And so there's just a lot of cool pieces to
Debra Wilson:
that. And then another project that we're just at the very
Debra Wilson:
beginning phases of. So I'm almost afraid to talk about it,
Debra Wilson:
but I'll talk about it a little bit, is helping schools,
Debra Wilson:
particularly boards and leadership teams, as they're
Debra Wilson:
going into a transition, like a heads transition. So if a head
Debra Wilson:
is retiring, if they're moving on to another school, helping
Debra Wilson:
the school understand, like, where they really are in the
Debra Wilson:
moment. I have a lot of conversations board chairs about
Debra Wilson:
going into a head transition, right? What should we know? What
Debra Wilson:
does that look like? And my biggest thing is you have to
Debra Wilson:
know what problems you're trying to solve, and the board doesn't
Debra Wilson:
always know that. And so sometimes, I think we don't
Debra Wilson:
always get the right fit, because you're hiring to solve
Debra Wilson:
one problem when actually your problem is something else. So
Debra Wilson:
you might be hiring a head who's very like program and curriculum
Debra Wilson:
oriented, when really what you need is like a fundraiser,
Debra Wilson:
enrollment management type thing. All of those skills are
Debra Wilson:
really important, but some of them take precedent, depending
Debra Wilson:
on what the school is facing. So really looking at the tools,
Debra Wilson:
some of which we've already developed, what process can we
Debra Wilson:
help schools with to get their hands around that? So not just
Debra Wilson:
their operational pieces too, but a little bit of culture and
Debra Wilson:
leadership team and like, what skills do you have around the
Debra Wilson:
table? And that's, I think, a pretty cool project, and will
Debra Wilson:
hopefully help schools as they're going into searches,
Debra Wilson:
they're going into transitions, to help them do it a little more
Debra Wilson:
eyes wide open and more aware, because it's hard, it's hard to
Debra Wilson:
get your hands around that, particularly from a board
Debra Wilson:
perspective.
Christina Lewellen:
Yeah. And speaking of boards, I'm
Christina Lewellen:
interested to go into this realm of governance for just a minute.
Christina Lewellen:
It's a big topic. And I think that there's some independent
Christina Lewellen:
school boards that are doing the right things, talking about the
Christina Lewellen:
right things, supporting their heads. And then there's other
Christina Lewellen:
times where we are seeing some churn, where boards just get a
Christina Lewellen:
bee in their bonnet about something, and then you are
Christina Lewellen:
forcing some kind of disruptive transition. Let's at least
Christina Lewellen:
narrow it for you, because I know that's a big topic. So
Christina Lewellen:
let's say I am an independent school technology leader, and I
Christina Lewellen:
meet you eyeball to eyeball at a cocktail reception, and I say,
Christina Lewellen:
Hey, I've been thinking about headship or I'm getting involved
Christina Lewellen:
more with our trustees. What are the kind of key elements that I
Christina Lewellen:
need to know about independent school boards? What would your
Christina Lewellen:
warnings or even your encouragement be in that realm?
Christina Lewellen:
I think that they can be tricky, and I don't think all tech
Christina Lewellen:
leaders fully understand what their heads are kind of
Christina Lewellen:
juggling. So that's kind of the origin of my
Debra Wilson:
question. I mean, it's really complex, probably
Debra Wilson:
one of the biggest trends I'm seeing around boards right now,
Debra Wilson:
and it's been a little bit since before COVID, but I think COVID
Debra Wilson:
Definitely triggered this when schools are in crisis or
Debra Wilson:
managing something very complex. Boards tend to fly at not quite
Debra Wilson:
as high of an altitude a lot of times, you know, the heads are
Debra Wilson:
keeping them a little bit more aware. They might have trustees
Debra Wilson:
involved in a task force that you wouldn't necessarily have
Debra Wilson:
seen trustees involved with 15 years ago. Oh, that's
Christina Lewellen:
interesting. So it's almost like we train
Christina Lewellen:
them to kind of get in the details a little,
Debra Wilson:
yeah, it's not even they're not even inviting
Debra Wilson:
them deep into the weeds, but it's more like, I want the board
Debra Wilson:
to know about this more, because we're going to hear about this.
Debra Wilson:
You know, big topic, particularly in the technology
Debra Wilson:
space, that I think is coming up, which is very cool and
Debra Wilson:
really exciting, but I think probably a little disorienting.
Debra Wilson:
Are like, say, AI textbooks, which, in half the cases, have
Debra Wilson:
neither text and nor are they books, right? So, so we need a
Debra Wilson:
different name, yeah. So we need a different name. But you know,
Debra Wilson:
when you talk to people who are developing these tools, these
Debra Wilson:
learning tools, right? And it's in my mind that's sort of like
Debra Wilson:
doubling down on the flip classroom or whatever, you know,
Debra Wilson:
you're going to run into parents who. Who have read the anxious
Debra Wilson:
generation. The main takeaway if you read the anxious generation
Debra Wilson:
is that if you are a parent, you will become more anxious. Like,
Debra Wilson:
that was at least my takeaway. We have three kids, so you know
Debra Wilson:
you're going to get pushback on more screen time for kids. Like,
Debra Wilson:
how do you know where is this data going? You know, suspicion
Debra Wilson:
around it, or if you're using tools where the AI is grading
Debra Wilson:
papers. What does that mean? Like, I think raising awareness
Debra Wilson:
with boards, because they know that you might see just managing
Debra Wilson:
those communications with the community and the community
Debra Wilson:
questions that come out. So I think it's an interesting time
Debra Wilson:
in governance, and the heads who are doing this are pretty savvy,
Debra Wilson:
and they're reminding boards about the operational and
Debra Wilson:
strategic roles and those differences, but I think they're
Debra Wilson:
raising awareness around operational issues that might
Debra Wilson:
become sort of strategic points of contention, and that can be
Debra Wilson:
with parents, it can be with alums, it can be with students
Debra Wilson:
like you name it, but they're just much more aware of that and
Debra Wilson:
asking the Board to use its influence in The community to
Debra Wilson:
help support the school in the direction that it's going. So I
Debra Wilson:
think it's important to understand those dynamics and
Debra Wilson:
how those might play out, you know, from a staff perspective,
Debra Wilson:
in terms of, like, if you're in that role right now within
Debra Wilson:
staff, and so if board members are coming to you with, like,
Debra Wilson:
sort of strange requests and things making the head, really
Debra Wilson:
aware of that, because heads are very much tracking, making sure
Debra Wilson:
the board is not overly in the operational weeds. And that can
Debra Wilson:
show up right from a technology standpoint, like now, if you're
Debra Wilson:
a tech leader in your school, you're managing a lot of data.
Debra Wilson:
You're just very aware of how everything flows and so
Debra Wilson:
understanding from sort of a health perspective, like a
Debra Wilson:
healthy governance perspective, like, where are board members
Debra Wilson:
kind of supposed to be, and making sure that your head is
Debra Wilson:
aware of some lines are potentially being crossed there,
Debra Wilson:
and they might already know about it, and be like, yeah,
Debra Wilson:
it's all good. Like, I told this trustee to come and speak with
Debra Wilson:
you, but you kind of want to do a gut check on that if something
Debra Wilson:
is unfolding in a weird way. I mean, I think relationships with
Debra Wilson:
boards are constantly evolving. What I tell heads is, you want
Debra Wilson:
good pillars of the community to be your board members. Right
Debra Wilson:
now, you want people who really understand what it means to
Debra Wilson:
serve on a non profit Board, who really understands your school,
Debra Wilson:
really committed to your school's mission, vision and
Debra Wilson:
values, because it's a complex time, and sometimes the people
Debra Wilson:
who want to be on the board the most are not the people that you
Debra Wilson:
necessarily want as your first string of recruitments. A lot of
Debra Wilson:
times it's the people who are like, no, like, I'm good. Like,
Debra Wilson:
I don't need to be on a board. You're like, yeah, actually, I
Debra Wilson:
really need you on the board, because they understand that
Debra Wilson:
dance of being really strategic, being pulled down more in that
Debra Wilson:
advisory capacity, to the head when they need to be but then
Debra Wilson:
going back up to being strategic. You know, I worry
Debra Wilson:
sometimes in our industry that we give boards a bad rap,
Debra Wilson:
because most boards, they do great work. They support our
Debra Wilson:
schools, they support our heads. They understand bringing time,
Debra Wilson:
treasure and talent to the table. But when things go
Debra Wilson:
sideways, they can get profoundly sideways.
Hiram Cuevas:
So Deborah, I have a follow up regarding boards,
Hiram Cuevas:
and perhaps if you could shed some light, or some experience
Hiram Cuevas:
on how boards have evolved in terms of risk mitigation as it
Hiram Cuevas:
relates to technology when they actually take a look at staffing
Hiram Cuevas:
needs in light of cyber security, and what that means to
Hiram Cuevas:
the overall FTEs for a tech department versus some of the
Hiram Cuevas:
institutions that many of our board members work for that have
Hiram Cuevas:
dedicated cyber teams, and what has that done to the
Hiram Cuevas:
conversations surrounding boards and heads of school. Yeah, I
Debra Wilson:
love that question. You're singing my
Debra Wilson:
tune, you know. So when I do workshops with boards around
Debra Wilson:
risk management, we talk like, about just the whole process of,
Debra Wilson:
like, how do you identify risks and like, you know, what
Debra Wilson:
processes do you use? You know, more boards are definitely
Debra Wilson:
getting interested in risk management. You're seeing what
Debra Wilson:
used to be the audit committee or the audit and risk committee
Debra Wilson:
now has become like the Risk and Audit Committee. And when I've
Debra Wilson:
done this exercise with boards like I'd say nine times out of
Debra Wilson:
10 that tech slash cyber security piece is in the top
Debra Wilson:
three, almost every single time, right up there with student
Debra Wilson:
security. And I think you're underscoring exactly what's sort
Debra Wilson:
of at the nub of that is we're seeing more trustees coming with
Debra Wilson:
a corporate background, and they understand what their own
Debra Wilson:
businesses are doing around cyber security, so they don't
Debra Wilson:
tend to get into the staffing needs like that. It's usually
Debra Wilson:
coming from the school administration to say, hey, we
Debra Wilson:
need more people here, but the question of cyber security, and
Debra Wilson:
how are we managing that, particularly given some of the
Debra Wilson:
data that our schools are sitting on, whether it's around
Debra Wilson:
giving or around admissions, like, just all of that
Debra Wilson:
information, as they become more aware of what we've got, they
Debra Wilson:
become a lot more interested in like, how are we keeping it
Debra Wilson:
secure and asking questions like, saying, like, yeah, I.
Debra Wilson:
Want kind of a deep dive on this and through, like, all of the
Debra Wilson:
mitigation steps, right? So thinking about policies and
Debra Wilson:
procedures and programs and personnel and training and all
Debra Wilson:
of those things, but also saying, like, insurance wise,
Debra Wilson:
like, where are we with cyber security, and what due diligence
Debra Wilson:
are we doing on the vendors that we're using, who are providing
Debra Wilson:
the security for some of this data. So that's coming up a lot
Debra Wilson:
more, and depending on the size of the school and sophistication
Debra Wilson:
of the systems, you get more in depth questions or less in depth
Debra Wilson:
questions. But I mean, I think it's definitely a trend that
Debra Wilson:
boards are talking about risk more, really focused on it more,
Debra Wilson:
and they're very aware of those cyber needs and not heard as
Debra Wilson:
much conversation around size of staff, but certainly around what
Debra Wilson:
are the schools internal protocols for how they're
Debra Wilson:
managing the risk and really looking at that insurance and
Debra Wilson:
due diligence piece. The
Hiram Cuevas:
reason I bring up the staffing question is I think
Hiram Cuevas:
all, just about every Independent School tech leader
Hiram Cuevas:
that I have spoken to, cyber has been layered upon them,
Unknown:
yeah, totally Yes, in addition
Hiram Cuevas:
to AI, in addition to data, data management, etc.
Hiram Cuevas:
And so you end up with not necessarily a true professional
Hiram Cuevas:
in that vein. And when you start looking at the corporate level.
Hiram Cuevas:
Corporate has its own cyber teams, and I think that's the
Hiram Cuevas:
hardest part for me to convey to some of the heads of school that
Hiram Cuevas:
I've talked to, is the need for a deep dive in terms of looking
Hiram Cuevas:
at what skill set your teams possess and where you're headed
Hiram Cuevas:
in the future, because oftentimes that operational side
Hiram Cuevas:
gets just added on as an additional layer. Think about
Hiram Cuevas:
facilities, for example, facilities, all of a sudden, is
Hiram Cuevas:
now on our network with all sorts of different things that
Hiram Cuevas:
was just another layer that was placed on the IT staff that we
Hiram Cuevas:
never, ever thought we were going to have to have your
Hiram Cuevas:
monitor, irrigation systems, your monitoring, access control
Hiram Cuevas:
lists, etc, but the cyber is such a different specialization
Hiram Cuevas:
that I do worry schools may not have the full wherewithal.
Debra Wilson:
Yeah, well, and it's a different viewpoint,
Debra Wilson:
right, like so, you know, I always have, like, a running
Debra Wilson:
list of scary things happening out there, and so the one that
Debra Wilson:
came across my desk two months ago now, was around people
Debra Wilson:
taking student photos off of school websites.
Christina Lewellen:
Oh yeah, with AI,
Debra Wilson:
yep. So all of our websites may soon look like
Debra Wilson:
Pottery Barn catalogs. I think there's been like one glimpse
Debra Wilson:
of, like half of a leg of a person in one Pottery Barn
Debra Wilson:
catalog 10 years ago, and that question of, like, who should be
Debra Wilson:
thinking about that? There's a student safety and wellness
Debra Wilson:
component to it. There's a technology component to it.
Debra Wilson:
There's, like, all these pieces. So as these things converge,
Debra Wilson:
like, who's thinking about that? I went to a school in New Jersey
Debra Wilson:
years ago, and they have cameras all over the place, and they
Debra Wilson:
have, like, a security room right where you had 15 screens,
Debra Wilson:
20 screens from like, all of the different cameras all over
Debra Wilson:
campus. I mean, that was years ago, and now that's so much more
Debra Wilson:
integrated into the technology back end than it was about like,
Debra Wilson:
those were just like live feeds. There was some recording, but it
Debra Wilson:
wasn't integrated into the rest of the school at that time. I'm
Debra Wilson:
sure it is now, I think if I went back to that same school.
Debra Wilson:
So it really is, like, you know, the motherboard for the entire
Debra Wilson:
school, and I think that's a really good strategic
Debra Wilson:
conversation for leadership teams to have, and also to say,
Debra Wilson:
okay, like, who's on this cross team, and making sure that the
Debra Wilson:
technology director is at the table, but that people are very
Debra Wilson:
clear, of like, who's got ownership over this, and how are
Debra Wilson:
we sharing that information? I mean, I bet you know, the four
Debra Wilson:
of us probably just in the time we've been on here together,
Debra Wilson:
we've probably all gotten at least 30 emails of different
Debra Wilson:
newsletters that spike up different things, right? So how
Debra Wilson:
do we share that information when you're working together at
Debra Wilson:
a school, and how do you keep working as a group? And who owns
Debra Wilson:
what, I think is a real question, because it has shifted
Debra Wilson:
over time, and depending on the school, the cyber security
Debra Wilson:
concerns can be really big. I mean, look at Power School. Yes,
Debra Wilson:
right? Like everybody kind of run around the mulberry bush.
Debra Wilson:
You know, Power School was doing its thing, but then everybody
Debra Wilson:
was doing, like their own outreach and disclosures and all
Debra Wilson:
kinds of things. So who's doing that? Who knows about that? And
Debra Wilson:
also, what other resources, external resources, does the
Debra Wilson:
school have to help guide them in doing those things? Having an
Debra Wilson:
attorney who specializes in technology contracts, but also
Debra Wilson:
is very aware of how to do that outreach? When do you have to
Debra Wilson:
make disclosures to your families? How can you tell what
Debra Wilson:
data has been accessed? All of those kinds of things, I think
Debra Wilson:
is really crucial now, in a way that it wasn't years ago. So
Debra Wilson:
Deborah,
Christina Lewellen:
before we run out of time, I would love to
Christina Lewellen:
put it back into the space of. Of what is next for NAIS? You've
Christina Lewellen:
been there now for almost a couple years, and my
Christina Lewellen:
understanding is that you're sort of moving towards some
Christina Lewellen:
longer term strategic conversations. So what do you
Christina Lewellen:
think is kind of on the horizon for NAIS? Yeah, the strategic
Christina Lewellen:
work
Debra Wilson:
is really exciting. We just kicked that
Debra Wilson:
off at the conference. We did some initial focus groups and
Debra Wilson:
different Round Table kind of conversations. I mean, really,
Debra Wilson:
what I'm interested in is hearing from our members, like,
Debra Wilson:
what do people really need right now? Like, kind of across the
Debra Wilson:
table, and I have a feeling for what some of those things may be
Debra Wilson:
like the team. And we could probably almost like place a bet
Debra Wilson:
someone some of the things that will come out of these
Debra Wilson:
conversations. But I would rather actually know. So we're
Debra Wilson:
really doing a deep dive into all of our events. You know, how
Debra Wilson:
do we think about leadership when we're looking at the
Debra Wilson:
different leadership academies, looking and listening,
Debra Wilson:
particularly post COVID and everything else, and then
Debra Wilson:
thinking about, okay, like, where are places we can partner
Debra Wilson:
across the ecosystem? So Kristina, we've partnered with
Debra Wilson:
Atlas any number of times on different things, which is
Debra Wilson:
always fun, and looking at more of that. So how do we do that,
Debra Wilson:
you know? And at the same time we're looking at dasl, we do a
Debra Wilson:
ton of data collection, and, you know, helping schools understand
Debra Wilson:
their data. We're playing around like everybody else with AI in
Debra Wilson:
that. Like, how can AI help our school leaders understand their
Debra Wilson:
data better? And like, what does that mean? What does that look
Debra Wilson:
like, while also balancing security risks and making sure
Debra Wilson:
that AI is not hallucinating with school data? There's a long
Debra Wilson:
road to go there, but really doing more of that, I think
Debra Wilson:
you'll see some of our strategy lab work continue, but also
Debra Wilson:
looking at like, how do we partner with schools in longer
Debra Wilson:
term when they're working with bigger projects. One thing that
Debra Wilson:
we hear a lot is, you know, it's expensive to hire consultants.
Debra Wilson:
It's expensive to do these different things. So given how
Debra Wilson:
many small or small or medium sized schools are out there,
Debra Wilson:
like, how can we help them do the things you're trying to do
Debra Wilson:
without just the extreme costs that go with it? And you know,
Debra Wilson:
we are tracking that heads turnover too. So how are we
Debra Wilson:
developing leaders, you know? So how do we shore up the
Debra Wilson:
leadership pipeline? But then also, how do we help leaders
Debra Wilson:
have more successful starts at their schools and, like, really,
Debra Wilson:
get them to that second contract? So how do we support
Debra Wilson:
them? How do we support their boards, and that partnership
Debra Wilson:
between the two and, you know, and you know, and I mentioned a
Debra Wilson:
couple of the other pieces that we're working on that are kind
Debra Wilson:
of exciting. So I mean, I think there's a lot of exciting, fun
Debra Wilson:
stuff ahead, and continuing to support our schools in complex
Debra Wilson:
and dynamic times is, you know, always front of mind. So again,
Debra Wilson:
good work, day after day, looking at these long term
Debra Wilson:
goals, but then also saying, like, Okay, people need stuff in
Debra Wilson:
the moment too, and meeting those needs, as you know, like
Debra Wilson:
working with our schools, it's a gift. Absolutely, education is
Debra Wilson:
complex, but people really want to do the right thing, and they
Debra Wilson:
want to do the right things by their communities and centering
Debra Wilson:
around students. And that's just such good, purposeful work. So
Debra Wilson:
that, to me, is fun
Christina Lewellen:
every day that is incredible. And just
Christina Lewellen:
know, yes, Atlas is 100% in whenever you're looking for
Christina Lewellen:
partnership, we love working with your team, and we love
Christina Lewellen:
creating resources that are beneficial for both aspects of
Christina Lewellen:
our community. And so I wish you the absolute best of luck. I
Christina Lewellen:
have no doubt that you and your team will do incredible things
Christina Lewellen:
and that there's really great things ahead for NAIS. Deborah
Christina Lewellen:
Wilson, thank you so much for joining us today and giving all
Christina Lewellen:
of this time and incredible knowledge. We're so grateful to
Christina Lewellen:
you.
Debra Wilson:
Well, thank you so much for having me. This has
Debra Wilson:
been very fun on a blustery and rainy day.
Christina Lewellen:
It's our favorite coffee date of the
Christina Lewellen:
week, we always say
Peter Frank:
this has been talking technology with Atlas,
Peter Frank:
produced by the Association of Technology Leaders in
Peter Frank:
Independent Schools. For more information about Atlas and
Peter Frank:
Atlas membership, please visit the atlas.org if you enjoyed
Peter Frank:
this discussion, please subscribe, leave a review and
Peter Frank:
share this podcast with your colleagues in the independent
Peter Frank:
school community. Thank you for listening. You.
