Vibe Coding Innovation and Data Privacy in School AI Culture with Angela Mackenzie
Presented by:
Angela Mackenzie, Director of Innovation and Learning Technologies at Saint Margaret's Episcopal School, discusses unifying library services, educational technology, and computer science. She shares insights on managing AI adoption, maintaining data privacy during vibe coding experimentation, building faculty trust, and launching student-led innovation programs for emerging technologies.
Saint Margaret's Episcopal School — Independent preschool through grade 12 school located in San Juan Capistrano, California.
Google Gemini — Enterprise AI platform utilized by the school to protect data privacy during staff operations.
School AI — AI tool designed for safe educational interaction in elementary grade levels.
Claude by Anthropic — AI assistant used by Mackenzie’s faculty for advanced text processing and vibe coding experimentation.
Google NotebookLM — AI research and note-taking platform
Otter.ai — Speech-to-text audio transcription service
Transcript
Peter Frank:
Welcome to Talk Technology with Atlas, the show
Peter Frank:
that plugs you into the important topics and trends for
Peter Frank:
technology leaders, all through a unique independent school
Peter Frank:
lens. We'll hear stories from technology directors and other
Peter Frank:
special guests from the independent school community,
Peter Frank:
and provide you with focused learning and deep dive topics.
Lauren Marold:
Welcome to Talk Technology with Atlas. I'm
Lauren Marold:
Lauren Merrell, Director of Innovative Learning and
Lauren Marold:
Technology at Preston Hollow Presbyterian School in Dallas,
Lauren Marold:
Texas,
Bill Stites:
and I am Bill Stites, the Director of
Bill Stites:
Technology at Montclair Kimberly Academy in Montclair, New
Bill Stites:
Jersey.
Lauren Marold:
We are so excited to be here. I get to bookend my
Lauren Marold:
summer with you, Bill. I started on the podcast at the beginning
Lauren Marold:
of the summer, and we talked about where it was going. And
Lauren Marold:
now here we are at the end of the summer. How are you?
Bill Stites:
I am in denial that it's coming to the end of the
Bill Stites:
summer. I know you down in Texas, you've got these earlier
Bill Stites:
starts than we do up here in the Northeast. I'm still holding on
Bill Stites:
to the last few weeks of this because we have new teachers
Bill Stites:
coming back in about three weeks.
Lauren Marold:
Okay,
Bill Stites:
and then teachers coming back just before Labor
Bill Stites:
Day, and then you know we start with the students the day after
Bill Stites:
Labor Day. So we've got that. I'll call it the traditional
Bill Stites:
movie script start of the school year that isn't in the middle of
Bill Stites:
the summer, but still, it's like I've gotten all my vacation
Bill Stites:
done.
Lauren Marold:
Nice.
Bill Stites:
I'm now in my seat and going to be here for the
Bill Stites:
rest of it. So, the anxiety over, like, all right, what did
Bill Stites:
I do? What did I miss? What do we still need to get done? And
Bill Stites:
then getting all of my team's vacation in. Yeah, I'm losing
Bill Stites:
more hair. Is what I'm doing. Losing more hair and going
Bill Stites:
grayer.
Lauren Marold:
Yes, yeah. My own kids start sooner than my
Lauren Marold:
school, so they start on the 10th, which is pretty early.
Lauren Marold:
Man, our school doesn't start back till the 26th, so we have a
Lauren Marold:
couple weeks. It's still pretty quick, and new teachers start
Lauren Marold:
next week, so we're excited. We have a pretty large group this
Lauren Marold:
year of new faculty, so I'm excited for new energy and get
Lauren Marold:
to find out what they are interested in. And so here we
Lauren Marold:
go.
Bill Stites:
Somebody needs to give me a really good
Bill Stites:
explanation of why schools in the South start earlier when
Bill Stites:
it's hotter. It doesn't make any sense to me whatsoever. I don't
Bill Stites:
get
Lauren Marold:
it. Yeah, I think maybe it's because it is hotter
Lauren Marold:
because there's nothing else to do with them, and as we were
Lauren Marold:
talking about earlier, the pool is no longer enjoyable. So,
Bill Stites:
yeah, we
Lauren Marold:
don't get out earlier than anybody else. So I
Lauren Marold:
don't know the reason. Anything else new with you?
Bill Stites:
Just got back from visiting my oldest down in
Bill Stites:
Georgia. Haven't seen him for a few months, so it's like the
Bill Stites:
first time of this. And my wife went down, and she hasn't seen
Bill Stites:
him since February, so she didn't want to leave. I had to
Bill Stites:
kind of pull her back, you know, wrap her up, and put her on the
Bill Stites:
plane to get back up, and she wasn't happy about that at all.
Bill Stites:
You know, while our youngest has been home the majority of the
Bill Stites:
summer by himself, so we've been absentee parents to him as we've
Bill Stites:
traveled around and done all these different things.
Lauren Marold:
Yeah, it's been good here too. So we've traveled
Lauren Marold:
and had all of the enjoyable moments that we wanted to have
Lauren Marold:
with our kiddos, and so we're on the other end of the spectrum
Lauren Marold:
with little ones still. So
Bill Stites:
enjoy it because it goes by in a heartbeat.
Lauren Marold:
Yeah, we are excited to jump into this
Lauren Marold:
conversation with our guest today. We have Angela McKenzie
Lauren Marold:
here, and we can't wait to learn more about your experience in
Lauren Marold:
the tech world. So, welcome, Angela.
Angela Mackenzie:
Thank you so much for having me. I'm super
Angela Mackenzie:
excited to be here. I am the director of innovation and
Angela Mackenzie:
learning technologies at Saint Margaret's Episcopal School. We
Angela Mackenzie:
are a preschool through grade 12 in San Juan Capistrano,
Angela Mackenzie:
California, and part of my role. I wear many hats, like many of
Angela Mackenzie:
us do. But underneath that umbrella, I'm also the director
Angela Mackenzie:
of our library and library services, and I am our computer
Angela Mackenzie:
science department chair. I am about to enter my 11th year here
Angela Mackenzie:
at St. Margaret's, but this is my 24th year in education. I'm
Angela Mackenzie:
just really excited to be here with all of you. It
Lauren Marold:
sounds like you have had a really big role with
Lauren Marold:
many different hats, as you said. How did that come to be?
Lauren Marold:
That you are over all of those different areas.
Angela Mackenzie:
It's really interesting, and it's definitely
Angela Mackenzie:
been a journey, but a great one. I will share that I started my
Angela Mackenzie:
career as a first grade teacher, so I started in the classroom,
Angela Mackenzie:
and after a few years of teaching, I ended up going back
Angela Mackenzie:
to graduate school to get my master's degree in educational
Angela Mackenzie:
psychology and instructional technology, and from there I got
Angela Mackenzie:
a job as an assistant technology instructor. And what's
Angela Mackenzie:
interesting about that is I was the teacher that was, we'll say,
Angela Mackenzie:
resistant to technology. Early on, and so going from that
Angela Mackenzie:
mindset into being a technology instructor just completely
Angela Mackenzie:
opened up this whole new world of technology and all of the
Angela Mackenzie:
potential that it has to impact the learning experience of our
Angela Mackenzie:
students. When I came to St. Margaret's, I started as the
Angela Mackenzie:
makerspace manager, and then moved into the steam integrator.
Angela Mackenzie:
And then, after a few years, my head of school invited me to
Angela Mackenzie:
apply for. At the time, it was the director of library and
Angela Mackenzie:
digital literacy position, and his vision was that the library
Angela Mackenzie:
would become a place for emerging technologies, and so
Angela Mackenzie:
with my background in maker spaces and STEM and technology,
Angela Mackenzie:
I ended up being offered the position, and I was thrilled.
Angela Mackenzie:
And as these things happen over the years, it just continues to
Angela Mackenzie:
evolve. So the running joke here is that I have a new title every
Angela Mackenzie:
other year. No one can ever remember what it is because it
Angela Mackenzie:
changes all the time, and I just sort of keep adding things
Angela Mackenzie:
underneath that umbrella, and it keeps things exciting and fresh.
Bill Stites:
So, what is the size of the school and the size
Bill Stites:
of your department?
Angela Mackenzie:
We are preschool through 12. We have 12
Angela Mackenzie:
150 students total, four divisions: early school, lower
Angela Mackenzie:
school, middle school, upper school, and we are all on one
Angela Mackenzie:
campus, but spread out over about 35 acres. So we're a
Angela Mackenzie:
fairly large campus, and we each have kind of our own sections,
Angela Mackenzie:
if you will, for me and my team. It's an incredible library team.
Angela Mackenzie:
So, some wonderful librarians that also partner with me on
Angela Mackenzie:
educational technology because we did bring those two together,
Angela Mackenzie:
and so there are two people that are part of that team, and then
Angela Mackenzie:
I have two digital literacy teachers that teach at the lower
Angela Mackenzie:
and middle school levels, and then I have three computer
Angela Mackenzie:
science teachers. So a lower, middle, and upper school
Angela Mackenzie:
computer science teacher. That's on my side on the IT side, and
Angela Mackenzie:
she and I partner very closely together. The IT department has
Angela Mackenzie:
a very robust department of nine people, so it's a pretty large
Angela Mackenzie:
technology team overall. But my side was the academic side. That
Angela Mackenzie:
sounds great.
Bill Stites:
One question about the libraries. I'm very curious
Bill Stites:
about that, given the size of the campus itself, so people may
Bill Stites:
know we're a three division school, but we're spread out
Bill Stites:
through the town of Montclair, so we're geographically
Bill Stites:
separate. So we actually have three distinct libraries: one at
Bill Stites:
our primary, middle, and upper. Are you dealing with a single
Bill Stites:
library, or do you have grade level specific libraries?
Angela Mackenzie:
We have a single library with multiple
Angela Mackenzie:
spaces, so we have one side, which is for our early through
Angela Mackenzie:
middle school, actually, and it really houses the majority of
Angela Mackenzie:
our book collection, and we have it completely genrefied and
Angela Mackenzie:
sectioned off according to just what's developmentally
Angela Mackenzie:
appropriate for each division, and then on the other side is
Angela Mackenzie:
our upper school library, and that really is set up more of a
Angela Mackenzie:
study and collaboration space. There's a smaller book
Angela Mackenzie:
collection there. We have a group of individual study pods
Angela Mackenzie:
on that side, so our upper school students are very much
Angela Mackenzie:
coming to us for that type of space.
Lauren Marold:
Can you tell me a little bit more about the
Lauren Marold:
overlap that you have created? It sounds really interesting,
Lauren Marold:
and I don't know that all schools are using that type of
Lauren Marold:
model. My campus has done some work because we're elementary,
Lauren Marold:
so has done some work with the library and educational
Lauren Marold:
technology overlap. But that's, I think, a really interesting
Lauren Marold:
model, and I think that many schools could benefit from
Lauren Marold:
thinking about literacy and research and all of the things
Lauren Marold:
that come out of the library space and how that could impact
Lauren Marold:
these other areas that you're talking about. So just be
Lauren Marold:
curious.
Angela Mackenzie:
What I've realized now, being in this role
Angela Mackenzie:
for over eight years, is libraries and educational
Angela Mackenzie:
technology specialists really do many of the same things. There
Angela Mackenzie:
is quite a lot of overlap, and to its core, the library is a
Angela Mackenzie:
space for people to come and be connected, connected to the
Angela Mackenzie:
resources that they might need, the people that they might need
Angela Mackenzie:
to support them, and so we really took that philosophy of
Angela Mackenzie:
having one place for our faculty and our students to be able to
Angela Mackenzie:
come, finding the resources that they need and get support, being
Angela Mackenzie:
connected to who they need to be connected to, and now everyone
Angela Mackenzie:
knows it's all run through. Our library program. When I stepped
Angela Mackenzie:
in, my librarians didn't consider themselves to be
Angela Mackenzie:
educational technology specialists, and so we did do a
Angela Mackenzie:
lot of work together in building that level of comfort. And I
Angela Mackenzie:
think that the team, over time, did realize that they were
Angela Mackenzie:
already doing this. People were already coming to them, or
Angela Mackenzie:
students were already coming to them if they were struggling
Angela Mackenzie:
with something on their laptop. And so, it became more of a
Angela Mackenzie:
communication and branding piece, so that it was clear to
Angela Mackenzie:
everyone that we serve multiple roles in this capacity of the
Angela Mackenzie:
library.
Bill Stites:
I love that. It's great to hear it because it's a
Bill Stites:
model we've embraced similarly across all three campuses. At
Bill Stites:
the upper school, in particular, we did a huge renovation number
Bill Stites:
of years ago, and that became our academic learning center. So
Bill Stites:
that's where you went for learning support. The IT staff
Bill Stites:
was there. The ed tech staff was there. The librarians were
Bill Stites:
there. So it was this central hub for everyone to come into,
Bill Stites:
and you didn't have to go anywhere else. The IT support
Bill Stites:
wasn't off in the distance somewhere else where you were
Bill Stites:
going for ed tech help, or you know you needed any of those
Bill Stites:
things. It was this idea of really pulling them all
Bill Stites:
together. I've always looked to the work that we do with our
Bill Stites:
librarians, particularly around the research cycle, to support
Bill Stites:
the work that we do in ed tech, and we've been able to model
Bill Stites:
that at our primary school and middle school to some degree.
Bill Stites:
It's more adjacent and kind of space issues, and we're looking
Bill Stites:
at that going forward. But I think that blending of all of
Bill Stites:
those things in that single place really create that central
Bill Stites:
learning hub that I think schools really benefit from.
Angela Mackenzie:
Yeah. Well, and importantly, I'll say I
Angela Mackenzie:
didn't ask our librarians or our library team to completely
Angela Mackenzie:
change its identity from being a library. So it was also there's
Angela Mackenzie:
space and room for all of this, right? It goes together, and
Angela Mackenzie:
yes, we're still supporting literacy, and we are still a
Angela Mackenzie:
place where students can come and check out books, and we are
Angela Mackenzie:
a space where students can come and get support with technology,
Angela Mackenzie:
or teachers can come and lean into trainings. So it, I think,
Angela Mackenzie:
opened up more pathways and a bigger world. I think for just
Angela Mackenzie:
the library team in general.
Lauren Marold:
Yeah, can you expand on that a little bit and
Lauren Marold:
how this impacts instruction?
Angela Mackenzie:
Like any big school with multiple divisions,
Angela Mackenzie:
there are differences by division. But I will say, in
Angela Mackenzie:
terms of digital literacy, we are lucky enough to have our
Angela Mackenzie:
lower school students have a dedicated time in their schedule
Angela Mackenzie:
every week for digital literacy, and so they come to the library
Angela Mackenzie:
and they receive those lessons. And many of them, you know, it
Angela Mackenzie:
revolves around digital responsibility, and it's aligned
Angela Mackenzie:
to the curriculum that's happening in the lower school,
Angela Mackenzie:
and in turn, our digital literacy teacher works with our
Angela Mackenzie:
lower school teachers to ensure that they feel supported in what
Angela Mackenzie:
they're doing in their classrooms. When it comes to the
Angela Mackenzie:
middle school level, our middle school digital literacy teacher
Angela Mackenzie:
also teaches, and she also will push in to certain classrooms,
Angela Mackenzie:
depending on the unit, and that's very much in support of
Angela Mackenzie:
research. If there's a research project or something along those
Angela Mackenzie:
lines, as a whole, in terms of impact on instruction, I am a
Angela Mackenzie:
department chair, and I also sit on the department chair's team
Angela Mackenzie:
as a senior administrator, and so when we look at the upper
Angela Mackenzie:
school levels, that's really where the teachers that I'm
Angela Mackenzie:
working with, so that they in turn are empowering their
Angela Mackenzie:
departments in this method, and we will also push in upon
Angela Mackenzie:
invitation if they would like us to, if they need support in any
Angela Mackenzie:
of these areas,
Bill Stites:
one of the things that I'm curious about because
Bill Stites:
of that blending of those different areas, so much of that
Bill Stites:
was work that was being done without technology.
Angela Mackenzie:
Yes,
Bill Stites:
I know that you're interested in future proofing
Bill Stites:
kids so that they can do this work without technology. Can you
Bill Stites:
expand on what that looks like and how that work is taking on
Bill Stites:
in the school.
Angela Mackenzie:
I'll give an example. If we talk about AI
Angela Mackenzie:
with our upper school students, we've very much heard from them
Angela Mackenzie:
just by engaging with them over multiple years and providing
Angela Mackenzie:
opportunities for student panels and hearing their feedback that
Angela Mackenzie:
they actually don't necessarily need our instruction on using
Angela Mackenzie:
the tool. They want to talk about using the tool and how
Angela Mackenzie:
they can better discern whether they should be using AI or not.
Angela Mackenzie:
How is this going to affect their future? Right. These big
Angela Mackenzie:
ideas and conversations that they want to engage in, and they
Angela Mackenzie:
very much want to see how it plays out in the real world. So
Angela Mackenzie:
I've been busy developing a new program that essentially invites
Angela Mackenzie:
students to come in, and it's a leadership group. And so we're
Angela Mackenzie:
going to be meeting throughout the year next year, and we're
Angela Mackenzie:
going to be connecting them to industry experts so that they
Angela Mackenzie:
can actually have these discussions with people that are
Angela Mackenzie:
using the technology in the industry. It's not technology
Angela Mackenzie:
instruction, but it certainly revolves around them feeling
Angela Mackenzie:
empowered to be connected to an expert, hear what the pain
Angela Mackenzie:
points are, how they're using it, and then begin to think
Angela Mackenzie:
about how they might want to use it at their level, and also
Angela Mackenzie:
hopefully share that information with their fellow students. And
Angela Mackenzie:
is that at upper school level? Yes, it's at the upper school
Angela Mackenzie:
level for now. Being you know this is year one, so we're going
Angela Mackenzie:
to launch and see how it goes. We've always taken advantage of
Angela Mackenzie:
the benefit of having a multi division school, which is our
Angela Mackenzie:
older students working with our younger students. So eventually,
Angela Mackenzie:
we hope to open up opportunities for our upper school students to
Angela Mackenzie:
teach and coach and meet with probably our middle school
Angela Mackenzie:
students, so that will definitely be in the future.
Lauren Marold:
You've had many different titles, which I think
Lauren Marold:
we've all experienced as we evolve in these roles. As our
Lauren Marold:
schools don't always know what to call it, but being in that
Lauren Marold:
makerspace or STEM education, what have you seen evolve and
Lauren Marold:
change in your campus over the time you've been there, and is
Lauren Marold:
that still a model that you deploy?
Angela Mackenzie:
So it's definitely evolved over the
Angela Mackenzie:
years. When I started here, we actually had a makerspace in
Angela Mackenzie:
every division, and now at this point, it looks a little bit
Angela Mackenzie:
different. We still have a maker space in our lower school, and
Angela Mackenzie:
that's connected to our computer science and engineering lab. And
Angela Mackenzie:
so they will go and experience different lessons depending on
Angela Mackenzie:
the day and the unit. And the maker space is integrated in
Angela Mackenzie:
that. And our lower school teachers are invited and
Angela Mackenzie:
supported when they want to bring their classrooms in. At
Angela Mackenzie:
the middle school level, we've actually transformed that
Angela Mackenzie:
makerspace into our computer science classroom and lab. So
Angela Mackenzie:
the tools still exist. The use of those has been integrated
Angela Mackenzie:
into the computer science curriculum, and similarly to
Angela Mackenzie:
lower school, if there's a middle school teacher that is
Angela Mackenzie:
working on a project and they need support using a laser
Angela Mackenzie:
cutter or support in the design process, that teacher will
Angela Mackenzie:
support them in that. Our upper school, this is all just part of
Angela Mackenzie:
what's going to be new. We no longer have a maker space in the
Angela Mackenzie:
upper school, but we do have other spaces that serve a
Angela Mackenzie:
similar purpose. It's a little bit more by department. So, for
Angela Mackenzie:
example, we have a very robust arts program, and there's an
Angela Mackenzie:
entire team of students that can sign up to be part of the set
Angela Mackenzie:
design, costume design, set building. It's a workshop that
Angela Mackenzie:
lives in the back of our performing arts studio, and
Angela Mackenzie:
there's a dedicated person there to work with the students in
Angela Mackenzie:
that. Similarly, for our visual arts department, they have a
Angela Mackenzie:
room with laser cutters, lots of different tools, and so the
Angela Mackenzie:
students that are participating in those classes have use of
Angela Mackenzie:
those tools as well. So, not necessarily dedicated maker
Angela Mackenzie:
space, but still spaces where students can access those tools.
Angela Mackenzie:
A new initiative for next year is we're in the process of
Angela Mackenzie:
completing any day now. It's a new center for technology and
Angela Mackenzie:
innovation that is an upper school space. It's going to
Angela Mackenzie:
house several classrooms: computer science, robotics, and
Angela Mackenzie:
math, being some of them. And it's also going to be my new
Angela Mackenzie:
home, which is going to serve as more of what we're calling an
Angela Mackenzie:
innovation hub. The name of it is Impact Studio, and Impact
Angela Mackenzie:
stands for innovation, mentorship, purpose, agency,
Angela Mackenzie:
communication, and transformation. And so that
Angela Mackenzie:
space isn't necessarily going to have the traditional tools that
Angela Mackenzie:
a maker space does, but it is going to be a space for students
Angela Mackenzie:
to come and engage in emerging technologies. Let's just take a
Angela Mackenzie:
moment to acknowledge our good friend Hiram. We're so glad
Angela Mackenzie:
you're here.
Bill Stites:
No, not. It was so much better when he was he was
Bill Stites:
playing with his new grandchild.
Hiram Cuevas:
Absolutely, yes. It's quite a change going from
Hiram Cuevas:
parent to grandparent, but it is outstanding.
Angela Mackenzie:
Congratulations! It's the best excuse to have in
Angela Mackenzie:
the world. Very exciting,
Hiram Cuevas:
Angel. My apologies for coming in late.
Hiram Cuevas:
They were just discharged a little while ago.
Bill Stites:
Hi, Hiram. How are you? Hi, Bill. We knew this was
Bill Stites:
going to happen. We prepped Angela for this. You would be
Bill Stites:
late, and then it would become all about you.
Lauren Marold:
Hiram, I'm excited to catch you up.
Lauren Marold:
Angela's been sharing about her wonderful program at her school,
Lauren Marold:
and I was actually going to ask you as you were talking, and it
Lauren Marold:
sounds like you have a really interesting space that's about
Lauren Marold:
to open, but understanding kind of where do you think
Lauren Marold:
education's going? I feel like your model is one that everyone
Lauren Marold:
is exploring right now, trying to figure out what's going to be
Lauren Marold:
the next thing or the best model for our schools, especially
Lauren Marold:
trying to build something across a K through 12 campus is always
Lauren Marold:
hard thinking about alignment, but do you kind of have a vision
Lauren Marold:
for where you think we're going and how your model could
Lauren Marold:
influence others?
Angela Mackenzie:
Yeah, I mean, I what I always come back to is
Angela Mackenzie:
obviously education is changing rapidly. It's an incredibly
Angela Mackenzie:
exciting time to be in education, in my opinion, and I
Angela Mackenzie:
have no idea what our kindergartners are going to
Angela Mackenzie:
need, what tool they're going to need to know how to use by the
Angela Mackenzie:
time they are ready for a career. But what I do know is
Angela Mackenzie:
that they and the rest of our students are going to need to be
Angela Mackenzie:
able to adapt to change, and they're going to need to be able
Angela Mackenzie:
to lean in to knowing that it's okay not to have all the
Angela Mackenzie:
answers, and maybe some careers won't exist anymore. The
question becomes:
Well, what are those skills that will help them
question becomes:
succeed in any career, regardless of what it is? And
question becomes:
so, my hope with the Impact Studio and what I'm calling the
question becomes:
Impact Fellows Program, which I described before with our
question becomes:
student leaders, is that it's going to empower them to think
question becomes:
about the things that interest them, be comfortable connecting
question becomes:
with an industry expert or a mentor outside of our school and
question becomes:
being willing to learn from them, and then also think for
themselves:
Is there a problem that AI might help solve in
themselves:
these industries in the future? That's really my goal: to
themselves:
continue to build that comfort in leaning into the unknown and
themselves:
being flexible.
Bill Stites:
So, to that point of the unknown, we just opened
Bill Stites:
last November our Inquiry and Innovation Center, which sounds
Bill Stites:
a lot like your Impact Center. And one of the things that we
Bill Stites:
have as part of our strategic plan is AI and emerging
Bill Stites:
technologies. And I know that you're focused on helping to
Bill Stites:
look at what is coming, what is the emerging technologies?
Bill Stites:
Because you mentioned the way in which you're dealing with your
Bill Stites:
maker spaces. At one point, those were emerging
Bill Stites:
technologies. I'm very curious because that, as I said, is one
Bill Stites:
of the pillars of our strategic plan. We've spent at nauseam
Bill Stites:
talking, as everyone has, about AI. I want to know how are you
Bill Stites:
looking at and what are you defining now as emerging
Bill Stites:
technologies, and how are you having those conversations to
Bill Stites:
kind of bring those things forward so that you can start
Bill Stites:
looking at those things and seeing which direction you may
Bill Stites:
go based on what you uncover.
Angela Mackenzie:
What a great question! I will say we're in a
Angela Mackenzie:
similar position to you in terms of having a strategic plan
Angela Mackenzie:
initiative known as Empowered for the Digital Age. AI is part
Angela Mackenzie:
of that, but it isn't limited to AI, and we did that
Angela Mackenzie:
intentionally, knowing that we don't necessarily know all the
Angela Mackenzie:
things that are going to be coming our way in five to seven
Angela Mackenzie:
years. We just finished an accreditation year, and at my
Angela Mackenzie:
request, we also have an accreditation recommendation
Angela Mackenzie:
around this. Which having both of those things just really
Angela Mackenzie:
helps move the work forward. I think if we're looking at the
Angela Mackenzie:
world of computer science, quantum computing, and really
Angela Mackenzie:
empowering our students to understand more data science is
Angela Mackenzie:
going to be crucial in these coming years. We have not leaned
Angela Mackenzie:
into that yet, but the computer science team and I definitely do
Angela Mackenzie:
talk about that, and we've had several of our alumni who went
Angela Mackenzie:
on to pursue degrees in computer science, share with us it's all
Angela Mackenzie:
about quantum computing. So we have a sense that it's coming
Angela Mackenzie:
our way at some point, but we just don't know what that will
Angela Mackenzie:
look like yet, other than learning as much about it as we
Angela Mackenzie:
can right now. And in terms of how I. These things forward and
Angela Mackenzie:
make sure that we're talking about it proactively as opposed
Angela Mackenzie:
to reactively. That's always my goal. I'm fortunate to have a
Angela Mackenzie:
seat at the table at our senior administration meetings and
Angela Mackenzie:
being part of that team, which includes our head of school, our
Angela Mackenzie:
assistant head of school, all of the division principals, and all
Angela Mackenzie:
of the directors on campus, and we have a wonderful, trusting
Angela Mackenzie:
group where I know I can bring anything to them, and we can
Angela Mackenzie:
have real conversations, and we can talk about what should we be
Angela Mackenzie:
thinking about here, what should we be mentally preparing for.
Hiram Cuevas:
So, Angela, what's interesting is if I look at this
Hiram Cuevas:
in the continuum, you've got the LLM here, you've got quantum
Hiram Cuevas:
here. Where is agentic in your continuum as a school? Are you
Hiram Cuevas:
using it already? Are you approaching it carefully? How
Hiram Cuevas:
are you all feeling about it?
Angela Mackenzie:
Well, like anything, we're feeling all the
Angela Mackenzie:
feelings, and I'll speak personally. I really see the
Angela Mackenzie:
potential of harnessing tools. Let's say, for example,
Angela Mackenzie:
harnessing vibe coding, right, and the ability to create any
Angela Mackenzie:
tool that you might need and asking it to complete tasks for
Angela Mackenzie:
you. I can see the benefit of that, in terms of where we are
Angela Mackenzie:
as a school, we're not there yet. In terms of our faculty
Angela Mackenzie:
embracing it, but we are getting to the place where we have our
Angela Mackenzie:
early adopters, our folks that are really excited about this.
Angela Mackenzie:
They're beginning to dive a little bit more deeply, they're
Angela Mackenzie:
beginning to vibe code. They're starting to create more tools
Angela Mackenzie:
that just solve some of the problems that they've had or
Angela Mackenzie:
make their life easier. So we're approaching, I would say.
Hiram Cuevas:
To follow up on that, when you said vibe coding,
Hiram Cuevas:
I shuddered a little bit because I've got a couple faculty
Hiram Cuevas:
members who came back from conferences, and they're all
Hiram Cuevas:
excited to Vibe Cobe, and they want access to app scripts. And
Hiram Cuevas:
I'm like, I yeah no, I know,
Angela Mackenzie:
no, it's a real issue and challenge. I am
Angela Mackenzie:
fortunate to work with an amazing director of IT, I do not
Angela Mackenzie:
oversee IT, and she had the same thing happen. A group of us went
Angela Mackenzie:
to a conference and just vibe coded our little hearts out and
Angela Mackenzie:
created some amazing things that were able to complete things
Angela Mackenzie:
that we hadn't been able to find anything else to do. It was sort
Angela Mackenzie:
of these complex things that we need, and so it's a real
Angela Mackenzie:
conversation in terms of just data privacy, and as a school,
Angela Mackenzie:
how we're going to ensure that we are protecting all of our
Angela Mackenzie:
data.
Hiram Cuevas:
Would you happen to know? Did they just create a
Hiram Cuevas:
security group for those of you that are doing the vibe coding
Hiram Cuevas:
that have access to it, have they created sandboxes? What
Hiram Cuevas:
kind of policies has UCool put in place in order to encourage
Hiram Cuevas:
faculty members to engage in these practices?
Angela Mackenzie:
Last year, we developed a policy, a set of
Angela Mackenzie:
guidelines, really for our faculty, and what we say is we
Angela Mackenzie:
have two tools that are officially our schools approved
Angela Mackenzie:
tools. We have access to Gemini as a school, and we also have
Angela Mackenzie:
School AI for our younger grades, grades three through
Angela Mackenzie:
five. But any teacher can access it. And while those are
Angela Mackenzie:
approved, we encourage our teachers if they want to try
Angela Mackenzie:
something new, if they want to experiment with a different AI
Angela Mackenzie:
tool, we say that they can, but they may not enter any data, any
Angela Mackenzie:
student data, any personal data. The idea is one awareness. We
Angela Mackenzie:
want our faculty to know the difference between using Gemini,
Angela Mackenzie:
where our data is not used to train the model, and using
Angela Mackenzie:
something else. But we also didn't want to stifle or shut
Angela Mackenzie:
down experimentation and creativity. So, all that being
Angela Mackenzie:
said, the vibe coding that several of our teachers engaged
Angela Mackenzie:
in the summer was using Clod, and for right now, the tool that
Angela Mackenzie:
we're going to sort of pilot this year, if you will, is going
Angela Mackenzie:
to be an internal field trip request tool. Our director of
Angela Mackenzie:
experiential learning met with our director of IT, and they
Angela Mackenzie:
very much intentionally went through the tool so that she was
Angela Mackenzie:
comfortable with it being shared just internally in that way. So
Angela Mackenzie:
we haven't gotten to the place that you described yet, but I
Angela Mackenzie:
have no doubt that we will need to this year because I think as
Angela Mackenzie:
these examples begin to be. Shared and far and wide, I think
Angela Mackenzie:
more and more teachers are going to be interested in trying
Bill Stites:
it. I saw Hiram get all excited when you said vibe
Bill Stites:
coding. You look like a kid on Christmas morning. It was
Bill Stites:
unbelievable, but it's interesting because that's the
Bill Stites:
line to walk, particularly with AI right now. Is this idea of
Bill Stites:
allowing room for exploration, but then securing things because
Bill Stites:
there's such anxiety over how AI is and isn't being used. I mean,
Bill Stites:
there's this ramped up expectation that schools need to
Bill Stites:
figure out what they're doing with it, whether it's pro or
Bill Stites:
con, whatever that is. But then you have these people that are
Bill Stites:
really getting into it, like you mentioned, going off and
Bill Stites:
creating pieces that you couldn't do before. I had one of
Bill Stites:
our music teachers create an app to teach some of the stuff in
Bill Stites:
music. Didn't know any coding whatsoever, and put all of this
Bill Stites:
together. And you want to encourage that level of
Bill Stites:
exploration, but understand to your point, you can't put data
Bill Stites:
in it. We had a really good meeting here at the beginning of
Bill Stites:
the summer, where we were talking about how, like you,
Bill Stites:
we've chosen to use and standardize on Gemini, so that
Bill Stites:
included Notebook LM. So we sat down with our heads of campus
Bill Stites:
and some of our top level leaders, and we walked them
Bill Stites:
through an exercise using Notebook LM to illustrate how
Bill Stites:
that worked. But there was questions about one of our
Bill Stites:
division heads talked about writing a speech for the end of
Bill Stites:
the year for students and was trying to do something where
Bill Stites:
they were entering all these different accolades about the
Bill Stites:
students and wanting to write it out. And Gemini couldn't do it,
Bill Stites:
but he was able to do it over in Claude very well. Claude took it
Bill Stites:
and really worked with it well. Well, what do you tell that
Bill Stites:
person? Is that personal data. How does that work? How do you
Bill Stites:
balance all of those things out? And I'm struggling with it
Bill Stites:
personally. I understand why we need to do this as a school, but
Bill Stites:
I'm also like, as long as you're not putting it in, and this is
Bill Stites:
the thing that I hate to say. It's like, do we trust you
Bill Stites:
enough not to put school data in there. How have those
Bill Stites:
conversations gone for you?
Angela Mackenzie:
Oh, I mean, you just articulated the real
Angela Mackenzie:
challenge of all of our roles. It's a conversation that has to
Angela Mackenzie:
happen probably often and on an individual basis. Every
Angela Mackenzie:
situation is a little bit unique, and I think this is
Angela Mackenzie:
where that partnership between, you know, however your school is
Angela Mackenzie:
structured in terms of academic technology and IT, but that
Angela Mackenzie:
partnership is so key because I do believe, I know I can speak
Angela Mackenzie:
for us, Nikki, our director of IT, and I sometimes we speak a
Angela Mackenzie:
different language, but she and I are able. I'm able to
Angela Mackenzie:
articulate this from the teacher perspective and sort of that
Angela Mackenzie:
holistic. Here's the value of this. She's able to explain to
Angela Mackenzie:
me the hesitation, and then together, in partnership with
Angela Mackenzie:
whoever needs to be there too, right? Whether it's principals
Angela Mackenzie:
or head of school, then I think we make that decision, or we
Angela Mackenzie:
discuss. Okay, we're not comfortable with this. Is there
Angela Mackenzie:
a different way? And we talk about how to have that
Angela Mackenzie:
conversation with the person right that created it. And I
Angela Mackenzie:
think it's hard not having all the answers, and it's hard for
Angela Mackenzie:
me having people come to me and me essentially saying, "Okay,
Angela Mackenzie:
give me some time. We have to work together to come to a
Angela Mackenzie:
decision on this. Instead of on the inside, I'm excited, right?
Angela Mackenzie:
That they're leaning into this, they're trying things, they're
Angela Mackenzie:
solving problems. It's all of the things that we want our
Angela Mackenzie:
teachers to be doing, and it is also our responsibility to make
Angela Mackenzie:
sure that we're protecting everyone.
Lauren Marold:
Yeah, I'm curious about professional development
Lauren Marold:
and how the buy-in for your faculty across all divisions is
Lauren Marold:
working. Obviously, upper school is kind of a different area
Lauren Marold:
because computer science looks like a very specific thing when
Lauren Marold:
you're in that division, but are you seeing that your teachers
Lauren Marold:
globally across all of your grade levels are bought in on
Lauren Marold:
AI? Are you still seeing some hesitancy? What are your
Lauren Marold:
challenges and wins?
Angela Mackenzie:
There's absolutely hesitancy still, and
Angela Mackenzie:
I understand why. I think, as I mentioned early on, the fact
Angela Mackenzie:
that I started my career as a classroom teacher-that was the
Angela Mackenzie:
one that said, "Oh, I'm not good with technology. Right? That's
Angela Mackenzie:
sort of how I started. I very much empathize with that
Angela Mackenzie:
teacher, and I understand that mindset still. After all of
Angela Mackenzie:
these years, we've taken a very intentionally slow approach to
Angela Mackenzie:
this, and we've made slow and steady progress as a result. And
Angela Mackenzie:
any time we've been working on anything, whether it's our
Angela Mackenzie:
school's position and policy, the guidelines, our. AI
Angela Mackenzie:
acceptable use scale, right? We have all of these things that
Angela Mackenzie:
we've worked on throughout the years. The entire faculty is
Angela Mackenzie:
always invited in to that process and those conversations.
Angela Mackenzie:
I will say that not very many come, and that's multiple
Angela Mackenzie:
reasons. Being a teacher is a very busy, demanding job, and
Angela Mackenzie:
I've learned that just because a teacher can't come to that
Angela Mackenzie:
after-school meeting to help design our AI guidelines, they
Angela Mackenzie:
know that they can email me or catch me walking across campus
Angela Mackenzie:
at any time and contribute their thoughts and ideas. So I think
Angela Mackenzie:
that has helped. I know that we're at the point as a school
Angela Mackenzie:
where we're very much leaning into now, I'll call it
Angela Mackenzie:
department AI literacy and fluency. So what does this look
Angela Mackenzie:
like in developmentally appropriate ways across the
Angela Mackenzie:
grade levels, and then eventually when you get to
Angela Mackenzie:
middle and upper school by subject. Our department chairs
Angela Mackenzie:
have shared with us that they really need two things to feel
Angela Mackenzie:
confident in this: they need dedicated time to learn, and
Angela Mackenzie:
they need support because they're in turn being asked to
Angela Mackenzie:
lead their department members in this work, and so this year
Angela Mackenzie:
we've already actually carved out that process and that time
Angela Mackenzie:
for them. We've identified 490-minute blocks of time
Angela Mackenzie:
throughout the year, and we're actually working with an outside
Angela Mackenzie:
consultant who's going to partner with me in leading
Angela Mackenzie:
chairs through a series of what we're calling design sprints.
Angela Mackenzie:
Each one will have a different topic. For example, assessment
Angela Mackenzie:
in the age of AI. The department chairs will first get to do the
Angela Mackenzie:
exercise themselves. They'll be asked to then do that in their
Angela Mackenzie:
class, and then they're going to reflect on it and share the
Angela Mackenzie:
process with their department members, and then we'll do it
Angela Mackenzie:
again. And I will say that we shared this with department
Angela Mackenzie:
chairs last year in April, and just sharing that this was
Angela Mackenzie:
coming has helped with the buy-in. I think everyone's at
Angela Mackenzie:
the place where they've accepted that this isn't going away. It
Angela Mackenzie:
doesn't necessarily mean that they're comfortable yet, but
Angela Mackenzie:
they know that it's time for the next steps.
Hiram Cuevas:
So, Angela, you have a very healthy professional
Hiram Cuevas:
development model there. I'm really encouraged by the
Hiram Cuevas:
framework that you all have developed, I want to be a
Hiram Cuevas:
devil's advocate here and say: Have you encountered any users
Hiram Cuevas:
that have said, "Yeah, you know what? I'm going to use my
Hiram Cuevas:
personal account and kind of do what I want to do and do the
Hiram Cuevas:
vibe coding that I want to do and go from there. That's sort
Hiram Cuevas:
of the challenge I'm hearing from other tech directors, well,
Hiram Cuevas:
I'll take a step back. Recently, we attended a webinar, Bill and
Hiram Cuevas:
I, where they say App Scripts is turned on by default. You all
Hiram Cuevas:
need to turn it off. We're like, who knew that it was on by
Hiram Cuevas:
default? So, of course, you do that. You create the security
Hiram Cuevas:
group, and then you've got folks who all of a sudden realize that
Hiram Cuevas:
they're not part of that experience anymore. They try and
Hiram Cuevas:
find alternatives, no different than the students. How have you
Hiram Cuevas:
all done that? Because I know you'd be able to enlighten so
Hiram Cuevas:
many tech directors who are struggling with the very same
Hiram Cuevas:
issues.
Angela Mackenzie:
To be honest, I do believe that the way our
Angela Mackenzie:
faculty policy is structured is helpful in that we do articulate
Angela Mackenzie:
these are our approved tools, and you are welcome to
Angela Mackenzie:
experiment. We also articulate that they must use their Saint
Angela Mackenzie:
Margaret's account for any and all AI tools that they're
Angela Mackenzie:
signing in with and experimenting with, which is
Angela Mackenzie:
still, I guess, technically a personal account because we're
Angela Mackenzie:
not managing it as a school. But I think it's this idea that if
Angela Mackenzie:
you're experimenting, then this is all still in the spirit of
Angela Mackenzie:
your job and your position here at school. I have not heard of
Angela Mackenzie:
any teachers going off and sort of trying to bypass decisions
Angela Mackenzie:
that we have made, and I'd like to think that we would know. But
Angela Mackenzie:
I think at the end of the day, for us, it does come down to
Angela Mackenzie:
this level of trust and this agreement and understanding that
Angela Mackenzie:
as a school, we are always going to do our best to get you what
Angela Mackenzie:
you need, connect you with the resources that you want to use,
Angela Mackenzie:
and if we tell you that that's not possible, there's a really
Angela Mackenzie:
good reason. So we're really trying to come from a place of
Angela Mackenzie:
yes as much as we can, and that's a cultural piece where
Angela Mackenzie:
everyone knows that if we say no, it just means we can't. It's
Angela Mackenzie:
not because we don't want you to.
Bill Stites:
I think it's great because it talks about a culture
Bill Stites:
of trust that needs to be developed. It's one of the
Bill Stites:
things that I think is helpful that I've found at least is when
Bill Stites:
you take the examples and you take them out of the school
Bill Stites:
context, you ground them in personal experience, and where
Bill Stites:
you can then start saying, you know, all right, would you take
Bill Stites:
all of your banking information and put it into an AI that you
Bill Stites:
are not paying for? You don't know where the guaranteed
Bill Stites:
protections are. Would you just dump all of that in there,
Bill Stites:
because that is really, to some extent, what you're doing when
Bill Stites:
you start talking about any type of personally identifiable
Bill Stites:
information that PII that you'd be putting into these things. So
Bill Stites:
if you can take it and ground it in that, but to my point earlier
Bill Stites:
that I asked you about, can we trust people to do what we tell
Bill Stites:
them to do? And I think that's where we have to start from, and
Bill Stites:
it's the hardest thing to build because outside of the personal
Bill Stites:
piece, they have to understand the why. We're not trying to
Bill Stites:
make jobs harder for them, but the world in which we're working
Bill Stites:
in right now is much different and has only been exacerbated.
Bill Stites:
We'll talk about this all the time with regard to everything
Bill Stites:
that we just said yes to during COVID. Still, people remember
Bill Stites:
the open door. Yeah, use it.
Angela Mackenzie:
Yeah,
Bill Stites:
you find something that you just go, and we're
Bill Stites:
continually pulling back from that. So I think it's an
Bill Stites:
important point that you make around trust.
Angela Mackenzie:
I also find, I'm sure you do too. It's very
Angela Mackenzie:
much in the delivery and taking the time to have that
Angela Mackenzie:
connection, that human connection on these types of
Angela Mackenzie:
requests and issues. I always try when I can to have these as
Angela Mackenzie:
in-person conversations as opposed to an email, right, and
Angela Mackenzie:
I'm sure you're no different. But I've found that that helps
Angela Mackenzie:
build that culture of trust too.
Lauren Marold:
Yeah, it sounds like y'all have a really healthy
Lauren Marold:
community, and I think that your point of trying to come from the
Lauren Marold:
yes-if people know that when they come to you, that there's a
Lauren Marold:
good chance that you're going to help find a solution-I feel like
Lauren Marold:
that builds a lot of camaraderie and collegiality, and that is a
Lauren Marold:
big win for a tech department too. Because I think that
Lauren Marold:
there's kind of an older cultural model of being the
Lauren Marold:
gatekeepers, and I think that that's really great to be able
Lauren Marold:
to open that up and make everyone feel really welcome. Is
Lauren Marold:
there anything else that you would love to just share with
Lauren Marold:
the community as we come to a close.
Angela Mackenzie:
If I think about one last thing to share,
Angela Mackenzie:
or maybe it's just what I'm looking forward to most for this
Angela Mackenzie:
next school year. It's just our continued work partnering with
Angela Mackenzie:
our students on this work, and I'm guessing that this has been
Angela Mackenzie:
discussed before, but I have found just going back to buy-in
Angela Mackenzie:
that it's hearing our students' perspectives and experiences
Angela Mackenzie:
that has actually moved our community and our teachers along
Angela Mackenzie:
the farthest. At the end of the day, we're here because we love
Angela Mackenzie:
working with kids and we care about their learning experience,
Angela Mackenzie:
and so I'm excited to continue to open up those opportunities
Angela Mackenzie:
for our faculty to hear from our students, for them to lean in
Angela Mackenzie:
and be comfortable learning together, which can be new. And
Angela Mackenzie:
so, thank you, thank you for the opportunity to share what we've
Angela Mackenzie:
been doing and have this discussion.
Lauren Marold:
Thank you so much for being here. I think that's a
Lauren Marold:
great message as we all enter the school year and put students
Lauren Marold:
at the front of the work we all are doing in our institutions.
Lauren Marold:
And hopefully, we will see a lot of interesting progress as the
Lauren Marold:
year goes on. You sound like you have wonderful projects on the
Lauren Marold:
horizon, and we'll look forward to checking in with you and
Lauren Marold:
hearing more about how everything goes.
Angela Mackenzie:
I would love that. Thank you.
Peter Frank:
This has been Talking Technology with Atlas,
Peter Frank:
produced by the Association of Technology Leaders in
Peter Frank:
Independent Schools. For more information about Atlas and
Peter Frank:
Atlas membership, please visit theatlas.org. If you enjoyed
Peter Frank:
this discussion, please subscribe, leave a review, and
Peter Frank:
share this podcast with your colleagues in the independent
Peter Frank:
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