Protecting People: International Data Compliance and the Assessment Revolution, with Wolfgang Soeldner
Presented by:
Wolfgang Soeldner of the International School of Geneva joins the podcast to discuss the evolving role of IT and ed tech leadership in a global context. The conversation dives into the "collective responsibility" of data compliance under GDPR and the EU AI Act, alongside a provocative look at why AI necessitates a total revolution in student assessment.
- Ecolint: International School of Geneva
- Technology Readiness Council (TRC), global organization connecting and supporting senior leaders in international schools
- 9ine, specialists in data privacy, cybersecurity, and vendor vetting
- Council of International Schools
- History of Mardi Gras
- Carnival, Wikipedia article
Transcript
Peter Frank:
Matt, welcome to Talking technology with ATLIS,
Peter Frank:
the show that plugs you into the important topics and trends for
Peter Frank:
technology leaders all through a unique Independent School lens.
Peter Frank:
We'll hear stories from technology directors and other
Peter Frank:
special guests from the Independent School community,
Peter Frank:
and provide you with focused learning and deep dive topics.
Ashley Cross:
Hello, everyone. I am Dr Ashley cross, Senior
Ashley Cross:
Director of Education and content here at Atlas, filling
Ashley Cross:
in as your atlas co host this morning, and I'm also joined by
Ashley Cross:
our regulars. Y'all say hello, hi.
Bill Stites:
My name is Bill Stites. I'm the Director of
Bill Stites:
Technology at Montclair Kimberly Academy in Montclair, New
Bill Stites:
Jersey,
Hiram Cuevas:
and I'm Hiram Cuevas, the Director of
Hiram Cuevas:
Information Systems and Academic Technology at St Christopher
Hiram Cuevas:
school in Richmond, Virginia.
Ashley Cross:
Guys, so good to be joining you this morning. I
Ashley Cross:
know Bill's just coming off of a conference, and my question to
Ashley Cross:
you is, How soon is spring break? What's your countdown?
Bill Stites:
It's not soon enough. Regardless of coming off
Bill Stites:
of a conference and getting some time away, we have all of next
Bill Stites:
week, and then we have two weeks, though, at MKA here, we
Bill Stites:
are responsible for being in at least one of those two weeks, so
Bill Stites:
I'll be working for the next two weeks and then taking a week off
Bill Stites:
and then coming back in to get some much needed projects done,
Bill Stites:
putting some APs in the ceiling and cleaning up all the little
Bill Stites:
bits and pieces before we get ready for the summer season of
Bill Stites:
much larger and much more detailed projects.
Hiram Cuevas:
So we are actually approaching the runway from the
Hiram Cuevas:
skies. We are set for spring break next week. We have a half
Hiram Cuevas:
a day tomorrow. We are good to go. So my daughter comes in from
Hiram Cuevas:
Virginia Tech this evening, then we jet set to Florida to
Hiram Cuevas:
celebrate my mother's 80th birthday. Then we'll come back
Hiram Cuevas:
and then drive back up to Virginia Tech so she can finish
Hiram Cuevas:
up her sophomore year, which is hard to
Bill Stites:
believe. Nice. You can stop and see Sean
Bill Stites:
Absolutely.
Ashley Cross:
So I have young kiddos there in school, and we
Ashley Cross:
just got out of a whole week break for Mardi Gras. So this is
Ashley Cross:
not their spring break that is still coming and approaching,
Ashley Cross:
but a fun little fact that I thought I would bring to the pod
Ashley Cross:
this morning. So I live in Mobile, Alabama. It is actually
Ashley Cross:
the home of Mardi Gras in 1703 and we had over a million people
Ashley Cross:
visit our city through Mardi Gras season. So that's kind of a
Ashley Cross:
cool little fun fact, but I wanted to also bring that to the
Ashley Cross:
table this morning as we welcome our guest. So we have an
Ashley Cross:
international guest joining us today, very excited about this.
Ashley Cross:
We have Wolfgang Soldner, and he is coming in from an
Ashley Cross:
international school. So Wolfgang, I also wanted to ask
Ashley Cross:
you, do you have any fun regional festival celebrations?
Ashley Cross:
Do you have some breaks coming up? What's going on in your
Ashley Cross:
world? Yeah.
Wolfgang Soeldner:
So Well, first of all, thank you for
Wolfgang Soeldner:
hosting me and welcoming to your show. It's a great pleasure to
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meet you all, some of you for the first time, and some of you
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as a reconnect. So Mardi Gras, I'm guessing, is sort of the
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equivalent to fluffing in Germany or Austria or carnival.
Wolfgang Soeldner:
And that's just a break we've had. So we've just had a week in
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February where basically the tradition, however long it goes
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back, is to get rid of the evil spirits of winter and welcome in
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the spring in some parts of Austria that still with very
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scary costumes and people with horns that throw others into big
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buckets and sort of replicate, I suppose, the historic origin of
Wolfgang Soeldner:
that festival spring break would be around the beginning of April
Wolfgang Soeldner:
is really when we go on a two week break. So yes, we're right
Wolfgang Soeldner:
in between two breaks. This is break season, and it's lovely.
Wolfgang Soeldner:
Yeah, can't come soon enough, as Bill said,
Ashley Cross:
very interesting. I didn't know about some of
Ashley Cross:
those regional things. Super excited to bring you on with
Ashley Cross:
this whole new perspective to the podcast today. But would you
Ashley Cross:
tell our listeners? Where are you? Tell us a little bit about
Ashley Cross:
your school, where you work, what you do, and just some
Ashley Cross:
demographics about your school.
Wolfgang Soeldner:
So currently I'm at the International School
Wolfgang Soeldner:
of Geneva, which you always got to be very careful with
Wolfgang Soeldner:
statistics. But according to statistics and history, it is
Wolfgang Soeldner:
the oldest international school in the world, and the founder,
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or co founder, of the International Baccalaureate, we
Wolfgang Soeldner:
celebrated 100 years last year, and it's also known as probably
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the largest international school, with about 4500 students
Wolfgang Soeldner:
across three campuses. The one I'm predominantly at is out in
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the war camp Canton, which is just the next Canton along
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Geneva is a federal state, so there's lots of cantons, and the
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other two campuses are basically city campuses here in Geneva,
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each with around 1000 plus, or a little less students. So it's a
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large organization. And.
Ashley Cross:
Foundation that's really incredible history and
Ashley Cross:
good context for our listeners too, as we situate the
Ashley Cross:
conversation, I think that the size of the school matters a
Ashley Cross:
lot. Can you tell us a little bit more about what you do
Ashley Cross:
there?
Wolfgang Soeldner:
I'm currently ICT campus partner, which is for
Wolfgang Soeldner:
all extents and purposes, somewhat an amalgamation between
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an IT director and an Ed Tech coordinator. So we have IT
Wolfgang Soeldner:
personnel on campus, and then we also have foundational central
Wolfgang Soeldner:
IT personnel, and then I bridge that gap mostly between the
Wolfgang Soeldner:
educational part and the technology part in terms of
Wolfgang Soeldner:
teacher training, student engagement, curricula
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integration, as well as then some of the infrastructure parts
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and hardware things. So when it comes to things like, right now,
Wolfgang Soeldner:
I'm doing a Chromebook rollout, then I'm at the front of this,
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or the face of it, and with the support of the technicians, when
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it comes to interactive board replacement cycles and things
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like that, we have people doing it. But at the same time I'm
Wolfgang Soeldner:
involved in the in the day to day, on the ground work, I
Wolfgang Soeldner:
suppose, and then alongside that, which we'll come to a
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little bit later, but I'm also the CEO of the Technology
Wolfgang Soeldner:
Readiness Council, but I think that's a whole other
Wolfgang Soeldner:
conversation that we'll have maybe a little bit later.
Hiram Cuevas:
So Wolfgang, one of the things our listeners
Hiram Cuevas:
really enjoy is kind of getting a superhero perspective of your
Hiram Cuevas:
origin story. So how did you actually get to where you are
Hiram Cuevas:
today in terms of the Ed Tech and the combo platter of
Hiram Cuevas:
director of tech and Ed Tech responsibilities? Because we're
Hiram Cuevas:
at an interesting point, I think, in just school histories
Hiram Cuevas:
of technology leaders reaching a certain maturation level, and
Hiram Cuevas:
we're going to have to have a new wave of new folks taking the
Hiram Cuevas:
reins. So what's your origin story?
Wolfgang Soeldner:
I wanted to become a musician, and realized
Wolfgang Soeldner:
I wasn't good enough, and then I became a teacher, I suppose, in
Wolfgang Soeldner:
a way, that's not totally far off the truth, but, yeah, you're
Wolfgang Soeldner:
right. I mean, I see this too. So this is my 23rd 24th year of
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being in education. And a lot of what I'm seeing and dealing with
Wolfgang Soeldner:
is exactly what you're talking about, whether it's the change
Wolfgang Soeldner:
of the guard, but also maybe a little bit in terms of looking
Wolfgang Soeldner:
at how the world of technology in schools is evolving, slash,
Wolfgang Soeldner:
what are the current trends and what's needed by or what's at
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least perceptually needed by superintendents or heads of
Wolfgang Soeldner:
schools. And whereas before, it was quite easy or easier to
Wolfgang Soeldner:
categorize a tech director or a technologist into a tech type
Wolfgang Soeldner:
person coming from the more traditional server room,
Wolfgang Soeldner:
infrastructure, security, all of those things. And maybe on the
Wolfgang Soeldner:
other side, having the pedagogical tech director, ed
Wolfgang Soeldner:
tech director coming out of the classroom, the necessities, I
Wolfgang Soeldner:
think, these days, is very, very different, because, of course,
Wolfgang Soeldner:
as you and Bill are keenly aware, you know, with constant
Wolfgang Soeldner:
cyber attacks, or cyber threats, with data protection and
Wolfgang Soeldner:
compliance with all these other things, the pedagogical side,
Wolfgang Soeldner:
again, is starting to maybe be slightly less important,
Wolfgang Soeldner:
especially in times of maybe financial frugality and where
Wolfgang Soeldner:
schools have to cut finances, especially on the operational
Wolfgang Soeldner:
side. So it's a very interesting era and time for any young
Wolfgang Soeldner:
technologist, really, to come into the field, because it's
Wolfgang Soeldner:
quite difficult to predict how things are really going to go
Wolfgang Soeldner:
and what types of skills you're going to be mainly required to
Wolfgang Soeldner:
do you. I think that world is much more difficult to analyze
Wolfgang Soeldner:
and predict at the moment.
Bill Stites:
So Wolfgang, one of the things I mentioned before we
Bill Stites:
came on air was that I spent some time over in Australia, and
Bill Stites:
my counterpart there had the title of ICT director, and we
Bill Stites:
often ask, What's in a name? What's in your title? Two
Bill Stites:
questions here, and one very simple, what does that stand
Bill Stites:
for? And then what does your department look like? How are
Bill Stites:
you staffed? I mean, you mentioned your size, but how are
Bill Stites:
you staffed like? Who do you have that is either reporting to
Bill Stites:
you, and then Who do you report to above? Yeah.
Wolfgang Soeldner:
So the structure here is, I suppose, in
Wolfgang Soeldner:
a way, a little bit more traditional, in that we have a
Wolfgang Soeldner:
foundational it or ICT director. His origins, originally, is much
Wolfgang Soeldner:
more from the corporate side, but he's been in education for
Wolfgang Soeldner:
quite a long time now, and his centralized staff are
Wolfgang Soeldner:
infrastructure specialists, security specialists,
Wolfgang Soeldner:
programmers, and as you would imagine, for a size of our
Wolfgang Soeldner:
school, lots of different specialties, as well as then
Wolfgang Soeldner:
educational leaders like myself, which we have on each of the
Wolfgang Soeldner:
campuses. So you know, your level one, level two, level
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three, like you would have traditionally in the
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International School world, it looks a little bit different, I
Wolfgang Soeldner:
suppose, because one, as you've just mentioned, titles are
Wolfgang Soeldner:
available galore. You can pick one and it probably exists. And
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if it doesn't, it will exist soon. At the moment, it's all
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about innovation and teaching or. Learning and innovation.
Wolfgang Soeldner:
Those seem to be the directorship titles now given to
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tech directors. There's still the ICT director, of course
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around. And then, depending on the school, in some schools, you
Wolfgang Soeldner:
have library reporting to a tech director. You have educational
Wolfgang Soeldner:
technology facilitators and coaches reporting to the tech
Wolfgang Soeldner:
director. You've got, of course, all the IT staff reporting to
Wolfgang Soeldner:
the tech director. So like in Singapore, for example, when I
Wolfgang Soeldner:
worked there, I had a staff of 32 people, and that included all
Wolfgang Soeldner:
of those different people. And that's, again, regionally a
Wolfgang Soeldner:
little bit different, because in some parts of the world, labor
Wolfgang Soeldner:
costs are much cheaper, so you can afford to have people to do
Wolfgang Soeldner:
very specific jobs. And that has pros and cons as well, depending
Wolfgang Soeldner:
on how you want to look at it, because, of course, the less you
Wolfgang Soeldner:
pay somebody, the less likely they're going to look beyond
Wolfgang Soeldner:
their sort of remit of the box that they're in. But it also
Wolfgang Soeldner:
really depends on the financial structure and safety of a
Wolfgang Soeldner:
school. So right now, we're going through a time of actually
Wolfgang Soeldner:
internationally, at least, there being quite a lot of strains on
Wolfgang Soeldner:
operational costs, as I've already mentioned. And with
Wolfgang Soeldner:
that, then comes the thinning down. So what do you not need?
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And what kind of person do you need at the top, in terms of the
Wolfgang Soeldner:
senior leadership position? If they can do multiple roles, do
Wolfgang Soeldner:
you then also need to have one representing each of the other
Wolfgang Soeldner:
bits? And so in times of I think, financial abundance, you
Wolfgang Soeldner:
have much more availability of roles and positions. But of
Wolfgang Soeldner:
course, as we all know, when times become a bit tougher, you
Wolfgang Soeldner:
start slimming that down a little bit.
Hiram Cuevas:
So Wolfgang, you mentioned something about the
Hiram Cuevas:
variance in the staffs that you have actually worked with. What
Hiram Cuevas:
is the Goldilocks zone, in your opinion, for a school, if you
Hiram Cuevas:
had the capacity? And actually, I will probably get to this in
Hiram Cuevas:
terms of your readiness Council. What is the recipe for having
Hiram Cuevas:
that Goldilocks set up for school?
Wolfgang Soeldner:
You guys will remember this as well. The rule
Wolfgang Soeldner:
of thumb used to be something between three and 500 devices
Wolfgang Soeldner:
per support staff on the first level, but that's like long
Wolfgang Soeldner:
gone. Now in terms of both the support or the systems behind
Wolfgang Soeldner:
that can support those devices, I suppose it's more of a
Wolfgang Soeldner:
combination of it's quite difficult for schools to really
Wolfgang Soeldner:
elicit their learning needs when it comes to technology, and so
Wolfgang Soeldner:
oftentimes it's outsourced to the position of tech director,
Wolfgang Soeldner:
but with that, then often comes a non equal voice in terms of
Wolfgang Soeldner:
the decision making table or the senior leadership table. So we
Wolfgang Soeldner:
all may sit, or have sat at senior leadership tables, but
Wolfgang Soeldner:
actually a voice of a tech director versus a voice of a
Wolfgang Soeldner:
principal, for example, or a Director of Teaching and
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Learning are treated very differently in most scenarios,
Wolfgang Soeldner:
unless something happens, and then we're brought up to the
Wolfgang Soeldner:
forefront and suddenly our voice matters a lot more. And again, I
Wolfgang Soeldner:
think it depends on financial situations and times, because
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the Goldilocks scenario is that you have enough staff to
Wolfgang Soeldner:
support, of course, from a technical perspective, but you
Wolfgang Soeldner:
actually have enough staff to really make a difference on the
Wolfgang Soeldner:
day to day teaching and learning side, which takes much longer,
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and it's much more people based it takes a lot more relationship
Wolfgang Soeldner:
building, but then also takes a lot more time in terms of
Wolfgang Soeldner:
professional development, or continued professional
Wolfgang Soeldner:
development. So schools are already really hard push.
Wolfgang Soeldner:
Because, of course, every single year a school has a new goal or
Wolfgang Soeldner:
a new something that they strive towards. And one of the big
Wolfgang Soeldner:
problems in schools is that those goals never really get put
Wolfgang Soeldner:
to bed. So we have a new school goal this academic year. Well,
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what happened to last year's school goal? It's sort of like
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it just gets added on without ever any real closure. And so
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from an educational technology point of view, that makes it
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really difficult to align yourself to school goals.
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Because at least in my opinion, technology should never be the
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driver of initiatives. It should be the supporter of initiatives.
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But if the initiatives are constantly changing like a flag
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in the wind, and it's very difficult to align yourself,
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because technology planning is much more longer term. You can't
Wolfgang Soeldner:
just plan for a year. It has to be for two or three or four
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years, depending on life cycles, depending on technology
Wolfgang Soeldner:
development. Just now, I don't know if either of your schools
Wolfgang Soeldner:
are Mac schools, but the release of the new macro now, I mean,
Wolfgang Soeldner:
that's a game changer. Apple has never been known for anything
Wolfgang Soeldner:
other than a premium brand, and suddenly they release something
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that's competing with a Chromebook, and that's nearly
Wolfgang Soeldner:
unplannable, but it makes such a big difference from a budget
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point of view in an educational setting. So what do you do with
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that if you don't have clear educational goals that are multi
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year?
Bill Stites:
What does technology look like at your
Bill Stites:
school in terms of you know, if I'm going to walk into a
Bill Stites:
classroom, if I'm going to be walking through the halls, what
Bill Stites:
am I likely to see?
Wolfgang Soeldner:
The one advantage, I think generally, in
Wolfgang Soeldner:
international schools, is that money is spent quite at large
Wolfgang Soeldner:
when it comes to technology. So all of the classrooms would have
Wolfgang Soeldner:
interactive boards. We're a one to one, even though we're a BYOD
Wolfgang Soeldner:
school that teachers all have school supplied laptops. We're
Wolfgang Soeldner:
actually moving to Chromebooks as we. Speaks, which is quite an
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interesting journey from an educators perspective. But
Wolfgang Soeldner:
basically, you would see that technology exists everywhere.
Wolfgang Soeldner:
The debate that could be had, is that a good thing or a bad
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thing? Is it deliberate technology where the outcome and
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potential measurable is there? But I think we all face similar
Wolfgang Soeldner:
issues. You know, ever since the release of the notion of one to
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one or technology at large in schools, I'm not sure we've been
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very good at trying to actually go the other way around and say,
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what do we want to actually achieve with this?
Hiram Cuevas:
So Wolfgang, as a follow up to that, given that
Hiram Cuevas:
the amount of technology is quite rich at these
Hiram Cuevas:
international schools, talk about the level of professional
Hiram Cuevas:
development that should accompany such a robust
Hiram Cuevas:
environment such that you can keep your instructors up to
Hiram Cuevas:
speed.
Wolfgang Soeldner:
It's something that I've been really
Wolfgang Soeldner:
struggling with for a long time, because you've got your Google
Wolfgang Soeldner:
for educators certificates or courses, level one, level two.
Wolfgang Soeldner:
You've got the Apple Distinguished Educator. You've
Wolfgang Soeldner:
got to see who does some certifications ATLIS, who
Wolfgang Soeldner:
provides professional development. But actually, in
Wolfgang Soeldner:
international setting, it's really difficult to find things
Wolfgang Soeldner:
that a school can base standards on or take as a baseline. What
Wolfgang Soeldner:
I, for example, try to do, or what we've been trying to do in
Wolfgang Soeldner:
this school, is the word mandate never sits well in schools. But
Wolfgang Soeldner:
how can we create the space line or the standard to at least
Wolfgang Soeldner:
ensure that we're all talking from the same perspective and
Wolfgang Soeldner:
from the same point? And that hasn't happened in any school
Wolfgang Soeldner:
that I know where the school has said, similar to your child
Wolfgang Soeldner:
safety and safeguarding training you have to do every so often,
Wolfgang Soeldner:
you have to get x certificate in order to create that baseline
Wolfgang Soeldner:
and that standard. Now we can all argue and say, you know, a
Wolfgang Soeldner:
certificate doesn't necessarily ensure better quality of usage
Wolfgang Soeldner:
and all those things, but it does create a baseline
Wolfgang Soeldner:
understanding that you can go from and that's really what I
Wolfgang Soeldner:
would love to see, is that schools become more I guess it's
Wolfgang Soeldner:
like in that notion of becoming more data informed and also
Wolfgang Soeldner:
looking at data, because if you can at least ensure that there's
Wolfgang Soeldner:
a quality program that your teachers at large are adhering
Wolfgang Soeldner:
by and continuingly taking like a Google educator certificate
Wolfgang Soeldner:
has to be renewed every two years, so you can at least
Wolfgang Soeldner:
Ensure that there is something up to date, something
Wolfgang Soeldner:
developing, and that notion of continued professional
Wolfgang Soeldner:
development not just the ticking of the box, and saying 99% of
Wolfgang Soeldner:
our staff have got a Google educator certificate, I think
Wolfgang Soeldner:
that's quite important.
Hiram Cuevas:
There's a bit of a follow up, and I don't know how
Hiram Cuevas:
transient the teacher pool is within international schools.
Hiram Cuevas:
What kind of a challenge does that pose to you all, from a
Hiram Cuevas:
support perspective, from a training perspective, in terms
Hiram Cuevas:
of maintaining the standards that your individual schools
Hiram Cuevas:
desire,
Wolfgang Soeldner:
that's both a positive and a negative. I mean,
Wolfgang Soeldner:
if you take the average International School, it's
Wolfgang Soeldner:
usually like a rule of thirds. So you basically have teachers
Wolfgang Soeldner:
if you're on average, leave every two years, two to three
Wolfgang Soeldner:
years, you've got teachers who leave every three to six years,
Wolfgang Soeldner:
and then teachers, you're there forever. So you've got that sort
Wolfgang Soeldner:
of new, fresh middle longevity. And then, of course, you add to
Wolfgang Soeldner:
that that Apple is very dominant in some schools as a prestige
Wolfgang Soeldner:
product, Lenovo and Microsoft based computers are very
Wolfgang Soeldner:
prominent in other types of settings. There's very little in
Wolfgang Soeldner:
hiring teachers, and actually to that degree, in educating
Wolfgang Soeldner:
teachers or training teachers to become teachers that is
Wolfgang Soeldner:
specifically focused on technology or the skills that
Wolfgang Soeldner:
are surrounded with technology. And I don't mean brand specific,
Wolfgang Soeldner:
but are you able to produce proper presentations? Are you
Wolfgang Soeldner:
able to navigate around certain systems with ease? You know,
Wolfgang Soeldner:
doesn't matter which LMS you use, but once you know one
Wolfgang Soeldner:
properly well, you can navigate yourself around most LMS.
Wolfgang Soeldner:
They're not all that different. But that's never really, as far
Wolfgang Soeldner:
as I know, been made as a priority when it comes to hiring
Wolfgang Soeldner:
teachers, because, of course, first and foremost, they have to
Wolfgang Soeldner:
be good at instruction and delivering content, and whether
Wolfgang Soeldner:
masterful, but at least the experts at their curriculum. So
Wolfgang Soeldner:
that causes, I think, one of the biggest challenges, because
Wolfgang Soeldner:
you're right, you can determine standards based upon
Wolfgang Soeldner:
certification, but that doesn't necessarily mean that, because
Wolfgang Soeldner:
it's not prioritized in the hiring, that you are actually
Wolfgang Soeldner:
getting teachers who continue the growth of the school, you
Wolfgang Soeldner:
may well have to retract quite often, which is okay as well, as
Wolfgang Soeldner:
long as you pick them up. But if you go back too many times or
Wolfgang Soeldner:
too many steps, it does impact the quality of the overall
Wolfgang Soeldner:
delivery, I guess, and usage.
Bill Stites:
When I first got into this, I said I'd love my
Bill Stites:
job, because I get a play all day. I try different things. I
Bill Stites:
get to explore and just dig in on things and have some fun. One
Bill Stites:
of the things that I've noticed over the past few years is the
Bill Stites:
fun has been taken over by a lot of the compliance work that we
Bill Stites:
need to do. And Hiram and I, we spend a lot of time. I mean, we
Bill Stites:
had emails going back and forth, is. Early as today, we work very
Bill Stites:
closely with one of our vendor partners, with a company called
Bill Stites:
Nine around a lot of the vetting and the compliance work. And
Bill Stites:
it's interesting enough here in the States when we're dealing
Bill Stites:
with things from state to state in terms of what we have to deal
Bill Stites:
with, but what does that look like for you there when you're
Bill Stites:
dealing with an international population, where our states are
Bill Stites:
equivalent to almost like the countries that you're bordering,
Bill Stites:
in terms of the way in which you have to navigate all of these
Bill Stites:
different pieces. What does that look like for you on the day to
Bill Stites:
day? And how do you make that work?
Wolfgang Soeldner:
Yeah, I mean, for us, it's quite similar. I
Wolfgang Soeldner:
mean, Switzerland follows very similar data laws to GDPR and
Wolfgang Soeldner:
the European Union. So it's quite clear, you know, you have
Wolfgang Soeldner:
to have access to a DPO. You have to go through compliancy
Wolfgang Soeldner:
and DPAs and DPI in terms of getting or purchasing or locking
Wolfgang Soeldner:
into new solutions. So before we, for example, before a
Wolfgang Soeldner:
teacher, a department, actually, anybody within the school
Wolfgang Soeldner:
subscribes to new service or buys a new product, they have to
Wolfgang Soeldner:
go through a whole process of basically, first and foremost,
Wolfgang Soeldner:
is it GDPR compliant or the Swiss equivalent? And that's the
Wolfgang Soeldner:
first hurdle. And then after that comes all the pedagogy. So
Wolfgang Soeldner:
just like you said, you know, the sort of fun bit about
Wolfgang Soeldner:
playing around and doing things has long gone, because if it
Wolfgang Soeldner:
isn't GDPR compliant, then the buck stops right there. And
Wolfgang Soeldner:
adding to that, I don't know how aware you are that, but the
Wolfgang Soeldner:
European Union from August 2 is putting into play the EU AI Act,
Wolfgang Soeldner:
which then addresses a lot of AI specific requirements for EU
Wolfgang Soeldner:
citizens, alongside the DPO and GDPR work, but there's a lot of
Wolfgang Soeldner:
overlap, but also a lot of differences. So we actually, at
Wolfgang Soeldner:
the moment, we're running a whole workshop series on
Wolfgang Soeldner:
specifically the EU AI act, because it's, again, a massive
Wolfgang Soeldner:
document that puts a lot of onus on the educational institution.
Ashley Cross:
Wolfgang you actually co authored an article
Ashley Cross:
for the international school leader magazine, and it was
Ashley Cross:
talking about technology as this collective responsibility, and I
Ashley Cross:
think this pairs up really nicely with data privacy. But
Ashley Cross:
can you tell us a little bit more about this approach? I
Ashley Cross:
think a lot of schools really struggle with this concept as
Ashley Cross:
tech as a collective responsibility.
Wolfgang Soeldner:
Yeah, so I'm sort of looking at Bill and
Wolfgang Soeldner:
Hiram again here, because I don't know if I'm totally way
Wolfgang Soeldner:
off this, but data compliance or compliancy full stop really
Wolfgang Soeldner:
should lie with all of us as a responsibility. But the problem
Wolfgang Soeldner:
is when the way that it's been rolled out, and I guess going
Wolfgang Soeldner:
back to schools, priorities and goals, most teachers haven't
Wolfgang Soeldner:
really grasped the concept of what it is that makes it so
Wolfgang Soeldner:
important for them to be compliant or to understand what
Wolfgang Soeldner:
it is that the technologists within schools or outside of
Wolfgang Soeldner:
schools are asking of them. So you mentioned nine which, of
Wolfgang Soeldner:
course, we're well aware of, and Mark's done a great job at
Wolfgang Soeldner:
helping schools from the technology side of compliance,
Wolfgang Soeldner:
but the training of teachers to really understand that
Wolfgang Soeldner:
education, I think now education as an industry, I think is the
Wolfgang Soeldner:
single biggest target for cyber attacks and ransomware and other
Wolfgang Soeldner:
things like that. And because it's such a relatively easy
Wolfgang Soeldner:
target, because most teachers don't have that understanding of
Wolfgang Soeldner:
exactly how much power and information they hold on their
Wolfgang Soeldner:
machines, or the processes that they go through, the list that
Wolfgang Soeldner:
they print off or may have lying around, or the computers that
Wolfgang Soeldner:
may get stolen or lost, or something like that. I think
Wolfgang Soeldner:
what's been forgotten about is that compliancy is mainly about
Wolfgang Soeldner:
protecting people, and if that were brought to the forefront a
Wolfgang Soeldner:
lot more with teachers and educational facilities, I think
Wolfgang Soeldner:
would be very difficult for anybody to turn around and argue
Wolfgang Soeldner:
or not understand. But because it's about computers and devices
Wolfgang Soeldner:
and technology, there's a disconnect between, well, this
Wolfgang Soeldner:
isn't really my job. It's your job. And I think that causes a
Wolfgang Soeldner:
huge problem that I see everywhere. You know, I still
Wolfgang Soeldner:
walk around, not just at the school, but I still walk around
Wolfgang Soeldner:
with computers, unlocked, desktops unlocked, or laptops
Wolfgang Soeldner:
plugged into screens and unlocked. And it's not that
Wolfgang Soeldner:
necessarily our students are the problem or our parents. It's
Wolfgang Soeldner:
that it's so easy to potentially do something very wrong and
Wolfgang Soeldner:
cause a major data breach. I mean, we've seen big companies
Wolfgang Soeldner:
be attacked and have loopholes that they obviously didn't
Wolfgang Soeldner:
realize in very recent times, and the amount of data that's in
Wolfgang Soeldner:
these systems that we host and run is scary. Yeah, there
Hiram Cuevas:
isn't a week that goes by that I receive a letter
Hiram Cuevas:
from a corporation that has said, Oh, we've been breached,
Hiram Cuevas:
and here's your two years of free Identity Protection
Hiram Cuevas:
Service, because we've lost all of your data, whether it's
Hiram Cuevas:
health information, financial information, etc. I do find it
Hiram Cuevas:
fascinating. I think this has become so symptomatic post covid
Hiram Cuevas:
Because all of these ed tech providers were given. Software
Hiram Cuevas:
away. And I think teachers were just salivating over the need
Hiram Cuevas:
for applications to help them conduct their courses in these
Hiram Cuevas:
remote settings, but there was a tremendous collective cost that
Hiram Cuevas:
we all paid for as a result being our data this kind of is a
Hiram Cuevas:
perfect segue, given the way our conversation has been going tell
Hiram Cuevas:
us some more about how your technology readiness Council is
Hiram Cuevas:
able to equip and support schools with some of the
Hiram Cuevas:
challenges that we are currently facing.
Wolfgang Soeldner:
Yes, I'll add one more little caveat before I
Wolfgang Soeldner:
answer that. Hiram is so during post covid with a lot of
Wolfgang Soeldner:
companies or organizations give things away for free, and now
Wolfgang Soeldner:
we're an era where a load of the companies that we are trusting
Wolfgang Soeldner:
and that we have vetted and that are compliant are suddenly
Wolfgang Soeldner:
introducing AI tools or AI assistant tools and basically
Wolfgang Soeldner:
giving away data. Yes, there may be some data protection
Wolfgang Soeldner:
agreements that are made, but actually they don't even know
Wolfgang Soeldner:
where the data goes yet. They tell us they're compliant and
Wolfgang Soeldner:
have data protection agreements. So we've entered an entirely new
Wolfgang Soeldner:
phase of basically unprotected data being given and sold on our
Wolfgang Soeldner:
behalf, just because our LMS suddenly has a curriculum
Wolfgang Soeldner:
writing tool and it's got a grading assistant, and we
Wolfgang Soeldner:
haven't actually signed off on that properly, like some of
Wolfgang Soeldner:
these companies, you can't even turn it off. So we've been
Wolfgang Soeldner:
really forced into a tool that is extremely powerful, no
Wolfgang Soeldner:
denying and extremely helpful, but at what cost? So I'm very
Wolfgang Soeldner:
skeptical about the future of that and what that holds, and
Wolfgang Soeldner:
it'll be very interesting to see how that plays out with the EU
Wolfgang Soeldner:
AI act when that fully comes into play, and how companies may
Wolfgang Soeldner:
well have to retract some of their AI integrations. So from
Wolfgang Soeldner:
the Technology Readiness Council, so we're about 33
Wolfgang Soeldner:
member schools spread across the entire world. You know, we've
Wolfgang Soeldner:
got schools in Canada, US, Europe, Southeast Asia, Asia,
Wolfgang Soeldner:
and the main goal is really the collective and the council, and
Wolfgang Soeldner:
what we've tried to do ever since creating this is create a
Wolfgang Soeldner:
community that supports each other on a much more granular
Wolfgang Soeldner:
level. Co authors things very similar. I mean, ATLIS, I
Wolfgang Soeldner:
remember actually the last time we actually talked to each
Wolfgang Soeldner:
other, it was in a very similar vein, where you were organizing
Wolfgang Soeldner:
your members to create coordinated and joint and
Wolfgang Soeldner:
collaborative resources and such. So there isn't a million
Wolfgang Soeldner:
mile difference between the organizations, I guess. What
Wolfgang Soeldner:
we're trying to do is create some sort of, I earlier
Wolfgang Soeldner:
mentioned, standards for teachers or educators, but some
Wolfgang Soeldner:
sort of standard across the world where, without being tied
Wolfgang Soeldner:
to an entity, a money making entity, we can wholeheartedly
Wolfgang Soeldner:
say that subjectively and and objectively, both ways, we're
Wolfgang Soeldner:
not going to be influenced by anything other than a collective
Wolfgang Soeldner:
agreement and work towards what best practice looks like, what
Wolfgang Soeldner:
Working through worst case scenarios looks like, you know,
Wolfgang Soeldner:
tabletop exercises providing tools that allow schools our
Wolfgang Soeldner:
members range from schools that could afford pretty much
Wolfgang Soeldner:
anything, to schools who find it very difficult to afford
Wolfgang Soeldner:
anything, and I think especially the schools if you have more
Wolfgang Soeldner:
financial restraints, those are the schools who are the easiest
Wolfgang Soeldner:
targets, and they are the ones who need the most support. So
Wolfgang Soeldner:
technology ready, in our eyes, isn't the tick box. It isn't,
Wolfgang Soeldner:
oh, now I've gone through accreditation, and now we're
Wolfgang Soeldner:
accredited. It's you understand that in joining us as a member
Wolfgang Soeldner:
and working with us and potentially doing an audit and
Wolfgang Soeldner:
beyond, you understand that this is a journey that was continuing
Wolfgang Soeldner:
and is unfortunately never ending, but at least you'll be
Wolfgang Soeldner:
part of a pool of other member schools internationally who are
Wolfgang Soeldner:
going through a very similar thing, and who bought into the
Wolfgang Soeldner:
notion and understanding that this is something that we can
Wolfgang Soeldner:
only really tackle together.
Ashley Cross:
Yeah, it may backtrack us just a hair at your
Ashley Cross:
school, we were talking about how all of these applications
Ashley Cross:
are out there. Can you tell us a little bit more about the
Ashley Cross:
process that you guys actually go through to vet applications,
Ashley Cross:
and then, does that have any ties to some of the work that
Ashley Cross:
you're doing at the Technology Readiness Council?
Wolfgang Soeldner:
Yeah, so like I said, I mean the first hurdle
Wolfgang Soeldner:
or stumbling block is, are they data compliant in terms of the
Wolfgang Soeldner:
law. So in Europe, you know, is the server base. In Europe, for
Wolfgang Soeldner:
example, is a very simple starting point. Then we have to
Wolfgang Soeldner:
have a Data Protection Agreement and the dtia, so there's a load
Wolfgang Soeldner:
of data work that has to be done before any frugal or before any
Wolfgang Soeldner:
continuation. And then we've got very much a process where it's
Wolfgang Soeldner:
departmental. So it is more more trying to pull back from being
Wolfgang Soeldner:
the ones paying for things, and even though it may all come from
Wolfgang Soeldner:
the same pot of money, I think having individual departments be
Wolfgang Soeldner:
responsible for the purchases they make digitally is a really
Wolfgang Soeldner:
good way to go about it, because. They have to then
Wolfgang Soeldner:
justify this as part of their budget. They have to justify it
Wolfgang Soeldner:
as part of their usage within their departments. And I go back
Wolfgang Soeldner:
to actually, when I first worked in Zurich, we rolled out iPad
Wolfgang Soeldner:
one to ones, and one of the processes that I loved was, and
Wolfgang Soeldner:
this was specifically in primary school and in the program called
Wolfgang Soeldner:
primary years program, which is a an IB program. It was the time
Wolfgang Soeldner:
when the similar to what you were saying, Hiram about like
Wolfgang Soeldner:
free software, was the times of free apps and how wonderful
Wolfgang Soeldner:
we've got 1000s and 1000s of educational free apps that we
Wolfgang Soeldner:
can use any time. But actually the process that we went through
Wolfgang Soeldner:
was that they had to fill in a form that linked directly with
Wolfgang Soeldner:
their unit of inquiry, with their curriculum needs. And the
Wolfgang Soeldner:
app in primary school could never be single usage, so it had
Wolfgang Soeldner:
to be cross discipline cover multiple angles and aspects. And
Wolfgang Soeldner:
I think that was a really good way, from a pedagogical point of
Wolfgang Soeldner:
view, to look at an app isn't just a quick fix, it isn't just
Wolfgang Soeldner:
a single thing. It's something that has to tie into curriculum
Wolfgang Soeldner:
and have a longevity, otherwise, you spend a huge amount of time
Wolfgang Soeldner:
basically just investing in how to do something and then maybe
Wolfgang Soeldner:
realizing it doesn't work in the first place.
Ashley Cross:
Can you tell us a little bit more about the
Ashley Cross:
process that you guys have currently? So you mentioned
Ashley Cross:
that, like, it has to be compliant with these laws. But
Ashley Cross:
like, do you guys have a committee? Are they submitting
Ashley Cross:
forms? Like, what is the actual process that an educator would
Ashley Cross:
have to go through to get something approved?
Wolfgang Soeldner:
Yeah, so they go through me. The process is
Wolfgang Soeldner:
they go through me, I make sure it's data compliant with our
Wolfgang Soeldner:
DPO, and then I have a bigger and better overview of what we
Wolfgang Soeldner:
have at large as a school, and then I can make some
Wolfgang Soeldner:
recommendations, whether we already have a tool that does
Wolfgang Soeldner:
something similar or maybe even exactly the same. So then I have
Wolfgang Soeldner:
a pedagogical discussion with the teachers or with the
Wolfgang Soeldner:
department. I'm not necessarily the one that says yes or no,
Wolfgang Soeldner:
because I don't think that should be my role, but I'm
Wolfgang Soeldner:
certainly the one that can guide or steer that conversation. So
Wolfgang Soeldner:
who ultimately makes that decision? The teacher. Well, I
Wolfgang Soeldner:
mean, I guess the head of department, a teacher requesting
Wolfgang Soeldner:
something, would have to go through the head of department,
Wolfgang Soeldner:
because they've got access to the ultimate budget and account.
Bill Stites:
I mean, if you review it and it doesn't meet
Bill Stites:
your compliance standards, are you able to say no to it at that
Bill Stites:
point, because even if they want it, they made like, you were
Bill Stites:
going back to like what they understand.
Wolfgang Soeldner:
Yeah, no, that's our absolute no go. If
Wolfgang Soeldner:
it's not data compliant, it won't go any further. We've just
Wolfgang Soeldner:
had that situation, actually, where we were looking at a tool
Wolfgang Soeldner:
that isn't and even the alternative was basically saying
Wolfgang Soeldner:
this was more to do with advertisements, and it was
Wolfgang Soeldner:
embedded advertisements, so even ad blockers can't block the ads.
Wolfgang Soeldner:
And the answer back from the company was No. First of all, we
Wolfgang Soeldner:
won't be signing a DPA. And second of all, this is against
Wolfgang Soeldner:
the spirit of our community, whatever that means. But
Wolfgang Soeldner:
basically they're not compliant, and so that won't go any
Wolfgang Soeldner:
further.
Bill Stites:
So with the work that you're doing with the
Bill Stites:
Technology Readiness Council. You mentioned the number of
Bill Stites:
schools that you have. Where do you see that going in the
Bill Stites:
future? You mentioned the work that you're doing, where you are
Bill Stites:
right now, with your global footprint on it, where do you
Bill Stites:
see that in the next one to five years?
Wolfgang Soeldner:
So we've recently partnered up with
Wolfgang Soeldner:
European ed tech Alliance, for example, which is a big
Wolfgang Soeldner:
organization in Europe that looks after incubators and
Wolfgang Soeldner:
regional ed tech alliances, we're targeting also or working
Wolfgang Soeldner:
with various organizations to make sure that ultimately, when
Wolfgang Soeldner:
schools look towards us for this standard that we've talked
Wolfgang Soeldner:
about, that we also have others working with us to create that
Wolfgang Soeldner:
overall quality, we've launched basically similar to many other
Wolfgang Soeldner:
organizations. We now offer free workshops for our members that
Wolfgang Soeldner:
are very much specifically to do with what's relevant for the
Wolfgang Soeldner:
technologists that we serve and the schools that we serve. We,
Wolfgang Soeldner:
like many other organizations, run a yearly summit, but again,
Wolfgang Soeldner:
as the main organizer of the summit, for example, the
Wolfgang Soeldner:
absolute goal has to be that every single session is outcome
Wolfgang Soeldner:
orientated, so people can walk away and walk into their job and
Wolfgang Soeldner:
use what they've learned. Because I think a lot of
Wolfgang Soeldner:
conferences and professional developments are very
Wolfgang Soeldner:
interesting to learn about something new or learn about
Wolfgang Soeldner:
something you didn't know, but then it's very difficult,
Wolfgang Soeldner:
sometimes, back in your own setting, to apply it to your
Wolfgang Soeldner:
daily job. And I think it's very important for us as a technology
Wolfgang Soeldner:
readiness council that at least for the most part, people walk
Wolfgang Soeldner:
into workshops and walk out of it with tangible takeaways that
Wolfgang Soeldner:
they can then implement in their daily job. So ultimately, it's
Wolfgang Soeldner:
striving towards that standard that international schools
Wolfgang Soeldner:
specifically can look towards and say, Here is something that,
Wolfgang Soeldner:
across the board, looks similar and feels similar no matter
Wolfgang Soeldner:
which school you go into, no matter which school you work
Wolfgang Soeldner:
with. Nice.
Ashley Cross:
That's really great work. So Wolfgang, we get
Ashley Cross:
acquainted with each other about three years ago now, if you can
Ashley Cross:
believe it, virtually. Me when AI really came onto the scene
Ashley Cross:
and people were gathering together to share, and your name
Ashley Cross:
popped up on my radar from some of my circles, but I'd love to
Ashley Cross:
take us to AI and talk about, what have you guys been up to
Ashley Cross:
over the last couple of years? How's it going? What's the
Ashley Cross:
temperature like? How do your faculty feel about it? Where are
Ashley Cross:
things with AI at your school right now?
Wolfgang Soeldner:
Yeah, I wouldn't necessarily single out
Wolfgang Soeldner:
my school as where things are with AI. I think we've gone from
Wolfgang Soeldner:
the excitement and discovery phase to the phase where, at
Wolfgang Soeldner:
least for a lot of classroom teachers, it's gone out of
Wolfgang Soeldner:
control. And so it's a great question. I don't even know
Wolfgang Soeldner:
where we are with AI anymore. I think it's a tool that is
Wolfgang Soeldner:
extremely helpful. I think a lot of educators are nearly at the
Wolfgang Soeldner:
point where they'd be ready to disconnect, get rid of any
Wolfgang Soeldner:
technology, and go back to paper and pen. But a lot of that is
Wolfgang Soeldner:
driven really, from our traditional way of assessing and
Wolfgang Soeldner:
assessments, because we don't know really how to assess for
Wolfgang Soeldner:
understanding. We know how to assess for knowledge. And so
Wolfgang Soeldner:
what we've traditionally been doing is passing on knowledge,
Wolfgang Soeldner:
then assessing whether you've gathered that knowledge, and
Wolfgang Soeldner:
then moving on to the next unit and the next topic. And then
Wolfgang Soeldner:
eventually you go to university, you know a little bit more, and
Wolfgang Soeldner:
then you get to your job, and you realize I didn't actually
Wolfgang Soeldner:
need to know most of that stuff. I just need to understand it. So
Wolfgang Soeldner:
if you turned around tomorrow and created an assessment that
Wolfgang Soeldner:
was entirely fully open book and said, use whatever tool you
Wolfgang Soeldner:
want, whatever platform, mechanism, system, hardware and
Wolfgang Soeldner:
software, and you were still able to actually elicit and
Wolfgang Soeldner:
extrude the understanding of something that would be amazing,
Wolfgang Soeldner:
and then AI could be this wonderful tool that we all know
Wolfgang Soeldner:
it to be, which would allow for individualized learning,
Wolfgang Soeldner:
differentiated learning. It would allow different students
Wolfgang Soeldner:
and adults to approach and to attack things in different
Wolfgang Soeldner:
manners. But for now, it's just like the quick fix, right? Like
Wolfgang Soeldner:
it's the new Google, it's the new Wikipedia. So most of the
Wolfgang Soeldner:
efforts, at least from a student perspective, right now, is
Wolfgang Soeldner:
going, how can I become a better prompter? It's not. How can I
Wolfgang Soeldner:
understand this tool for the amazing potential it has? So I
Wolfgang Soeldner:
don't know. I don't know where we are. I know that schools are
Wolfgang Soeldner:
forever holding on to the notion that we need to serve what
Wolfgang Soeldner:
universities require of us. And universities say, well, we need
Wolfgang Soeldner:
to, kind of prepare our students for what the job market is, but
Wolfgang Soeldner:
that's already massively changing. You know. Can you
Wolfgang Soeldner:
imagine, for example, being a first year lawyer and the work
Wolfgang Soeldner:
that they actually mainly doing that's obsolete already? Can you
Wolfgang Soeldner:
imagine being like a lower level programmer that's basically
Wolfgang Soeldner:
obsolete, so we can easily identify the jobs that are
Wolfgang Soeldner:
basically already obsolete, but what we're still really poor at
Wolfgang Soeldner:
at school is the really badly named soft skills. And how do we
Wolfgang Soeldner:
actually teach those? Because they're not soft at all. They
Wolfgang Soeldner:
are the skills that will inevitably help whatever
Wolfgang Soeldner:
generations coming through our education system succeed and has
Wolfgang Soeldner:
done forever. You know, presentation skills,
Wolfgang Soeldner:
collaboration, any kind of soft skill that you've ever come
Wolfgang Soeldner:
across is usually what makes a person succeed in life.
Hiram Cuevas:
It's uncanny. Your comments there, because we just
Hiram Cuevas:
had our board retreat here at school yesterday, and a couple
Hiram Cuevas:
of things that were almost identical. One was reevaluating
Hiram Cuevas:
how we assess our students, because traditional methods of
Hiram Cuevas:
instruction can't compete with AI. And then when talking to the
Hiram Cuevas:
leaders of our community, have had one attorney say So you're
Hiram Cuevas:
telling me that now I can place all of my contracts into an AI
Hiram Cuevas:
edge in a walled garden, etc, and then generate all new
Hiram Cuevas:
contracts based on the framework and the way that we like to
Hiram Cuevas:
design our contracts. And I was like, yeah, absolutely. I have
Hiram Cuevas:
no need for young attorneys anymore. And I reminded him,
Hiram Cuevas:
yes, but then you're going to eventually need senior
Hiram Cuevas:
attorneys, and you still need to have some growth of your young
Hiram Cuevas:
attorneys to become senior attorneys, because, yes, AI can
Hiram Cuevas:
do a lot of this, but eventually you're going to need somebody
Hiram Cuevas:
who really understands the law, and if they're not doing that on
Hiram Cuevas:
a regular basis, they're not going to be able to compete.
Hiram Cuevas:
What's interesting is our jobs, I think are so perfect for the
Hiram Cuevas:
use of AI. We encounter problems daily that we were never trained
Hiram Cuevas:
for. We encounter problems regularly that may not have any
Hiram Cuevas:
solutions. And Bill mentioned that the two of us engage in
Hiram Cuevas:
conversations frequently about vetting applications in terms of
Hiram Cuevas:
service and data privacy. We don't have access to schools
Hiram Cuevas:
attorneys on a regular basis, and they're very expensive, but
Hiram Cuevas:
we can develop that cursory overview so that we can start to
Hiram Cuevas:
learn what that landscape looks like. And so we're building the
Hiram Cuevas:
plane as we fly it. But. But I couldn't agree with you more,
Hiram Cuevas:
and it really is uncanny how your remarks are exactly out of
Hiram Cuevas:
our board retreat yesterday. Yeah.
Wolfgang Soeldner:
I mean, I think we're all facing similar
Wolfgang Soeldner:
things where the, you know, the realization has been there for a
Wolfgang Soeldner:
long time that the way we assess really is mainly money driven
Wolfgang Soeldner:
because it's the easiest way to assess, right? I used to be a
Wolfgang Soeldner:
language teacher, and you can't tell me that the best way to
Wolfgang Soeldner:
assess whether somebody speaks a language is by making them write
Wolfgang Soeldner:
a four hour exam, or the best way to take AP Computer Science
Wolfgang Soeldner:
exam is to have them handwrite code. That just isn't the best
Wolfgang Soeldner:
way to assess a subject that really isn't meant to be on
Wolfgang Soeldner:
paper, and paper has nothing to do with that, but it's just the
Wolfgang Soeldner:
way we assess. So, yeah, you're right. I mean, looking at a
Wolfgang Soeldner:
paralegals work, is it necessary to then become a senior lawyer
Wolfgang Soeldner:
and learn the ropes? I don't know. I mean, we've always
Wolfgang Soeldner:
evolved jobs, and jobs have come and gone, and inventions have
Wolfgang Soeldner:
made certain jobs obsolete and created others. But I just see
Wolfgang Soeldner:
that, I guess that the closest thing I can relate it to is the
Wolfgang Soeldner:
the evolution of really good DIY people through YouTube. You
Wolfgang Soeldner:
know, people have built houses and converted vans and such,
Wolfgang Soeldner:
because others have taken the time to create these amazing
Wolfgang Soeldner:
videos of how to but now you don't need that video. You can
Wolfgang Soeldner:
actually, for the most part, really go to a tool that will
Wolfgang Soeldner:
guide you through things on a much more detailed and granular
Wolfgang Soeldner:
level. It doesn't take a lot to be able to understand is what
Wolfgang Soeldner:
I'm getting correct or incorrect? You know, we're not
Wolfgang Soeldner:
talking about astrophysics. I'm talking more about things that
Wolfgang Soeldner:
are comprehendible to the majority of people. So it'll be
Wolfgang Soeldner:
interesting to see, because I feel probably what's coming is
Wolfgang Soeldner:
more a natural revolution, as opposed to pivot by the
Wolfgang Soeldner:
educational systems, because the masses will demand and so
Wolfgang Soeldner:
students and teachers and so on that really discover the power
Wolfgang Soeldner:
and how to use and apply this new technology. It's already
Wolfgang Soeldner:
happening all around us, and it's incredible. So we're
Wolfgang Soeldner:
playing catch up once again.
Hiram Cuevas:
And the interesting perspective there
Hiram Cuevas:
is, if you use the age of 25 as a mature adult, okay, so it's
Hiram Cuevas:
going to take until 2033 for our seniors to get to that. And then
Hiram Cuevas:
you realize that if you're a one year old that's 2050 that world
Hiram Cuevas:
is going to be vastly different. And so we need to be cognizant
Hiram Cuevas:
of the fact that this evolution slash revolution is already in
Hiram Cuevas:
process.
Wolfgang Soeldner:
Yeah. And then what do we have to do to be
Wolfgang Soeldner:
able to, you know, just take things like deep fakes. What
Wolfgang Soeldner:
skills should we be teaching our students to be able to be
Wolfgang Soeldner:
equipped to go through an election process or to make
Wolfgang Soeldner:
important decisions in their life based on the ability to
Wolfgang Soeldner:
decipher what is real and what isn't real. I mean, I'm
Wolfgang Soeldner:
struggling with it these days, and I've lived a fair part of my
Wolfgang Soeldner:
life, and it's only going to become harder.
Ashley Cross:
Yeah, for sure. We actually have Evan Harris out of
Ashley Cross:
pathos group, coming to speak at ATLIS at the keynote, and deep
Ashley Cross:
fakes is the topic for our annual conference main stage
Ashley Cross:
this year, but it's a big deal. But you know, you were talking
Ashley Cross:
about it from the student perspective. But I mean, it's
Ashley Cross:
not just that. It's when you have faculty impersonating the
Ashley Cross:
head of school and making deep fake racist comments out there,
Ashley Cross:
or, you know, there's things where cyber bullying incidents
Ashley Cross:
and the schools have really gotten into a lot of trouble
Ashley Cross:
about not responding in the proper way. But again, they're
Ashley Cross:
still trying to figure out, well, what is the proper
Ashley Cross:
response and approach, like it's very new and moving very
Ashley Cross:
quickly. And so that's an area that I think our schools are
Ashley Cross:
paying a lot of attention to.
Wolfgang Soeldner:
Yeah, and I think adding to that, like the
Wolfgang Soeldner:
educational world, unfortunately, is kind of one
Wolfgang Soeldner:
way you're guilty until proven innocent, rather than innocent
Wolfgang Soeldner:
until proven guilty. So reputation and all that comes
Wolfgang Soeldner:
with that is super delicate, and you add a frank but what does
Wolfgang Soeldner:
that matter in the longevity of a career and reputation when,
Wolfgang Soeldner:
sure, it might be found out to be a frank and yes, maybe the
Wolfgang Soeldner:
school has got good response mechanisms, but the individuals
Wolfgang Soeldner:
tainted forever?
Ashley Cross:
Absolutely, yeah, that brand tarnishment And
Ashley Cross:
anything you know, on the internet and when the media gets
Ashley Cross:
involved, it escalates very quickly, for sure. Well,
Ashley Cross:
Wolfgang, as we are wrapping up our time with you, if there are
Ashley Cross:
people in our audience that are thinking, This sounds really
Ashley Cross:
fascinating, I'd love to work internationally. I want to
Ashley Cross:
explore this. Do you have any advice for them about the
Ashley Cross:
potential of moving to an international school? Yes.
Wolfgang Soeldner:
So there's a couple of big organization,
Wolfgang Soeldner:
search associates, CIS, the Council of international
Wolfgang Soeldner:
schools, the global recruitment collaborative. These are all
Wolfgang Soeldner:
really good organizations that have for many, many years, been
Wolfgang Soeldner:
big and major players in the recruitment scene. If it's
Wolfgang Soeldner:
technologist, then we actually run a forum. That's free. So
Wolfgang Soeldner:
join that. That's a really good free platform, open sharing. So
Wolfgang Soeldner:
it's not just for the job market, of course, but it's also
Wolfgang Soeldner:
generally about anything to do with technology. From the
Wolfgang Soeldner:
perspective of a senior technologist, tech director, or
Wolfgang Soeldner:
Director of Innovation, whatever we call it. Now, there are some
Wolfgang Soeldner:
really good communities, of course, the TLC as well. And
Wolfgang Soeldner:
myself, I'm always more than happy to help and assist in any
Wolfgang Soeldner:
way awesome.
Ashley Cross:
Well, thank you so much. We appreciate your time
Ashley Cross:
and appreciate you being here with us today.
Wolfgang Soeldner:
Thank you guys, awesome and really nice to
Wolfgang Soeldner:
meet you, Bill and Hiram. Ashley, lovely seeing you again.
Peter Frank:
Bye, everybody. This has been talking technology
Peter Frank:
with ATLIS, produced by the Association of technology
Peter Frank:
leaders in independent schools. For more information about Atlas
Peter Frank:
and Atlas membership, please visit the atlas.org if you
Peter Frank:
enjoyed this discussion, please subscribe, leave a review and
Peter Frank:
share this podcast with your colleagues in the independent
Peter Frank:
school community. Thank you for listening. You.
