Tech Leadership and Change Agency in Independent Schools
Transitioning into a new technology leadership role at an independent school presents unique challenges and opportunities. Two technology leaders share their insights on navigating these transitions, from establishing a vision and fostering team dynamics to managing change and building trust within the school community. This episode provides valuable guidance for current and aspiring technology leaders in independent schools.
Resources
- Ravenscroft School
- Marlborough School
- FolioCollaborative, flexible, paperless, cloud-based experience for managing and guiding professional growth and learning, and encouraging collaboration among faculty and staff
- Technology Leaders in Independent Schools (TLIS) certification, differentiating independent school technology leaders by identifying those with the appropriate skills and experience, as well as commitment to ongoing professional development, to manage with excellence their complex and ever-changing role
- Community-building resources from ATLIS
- Management Time: Who’s Got the Monkey?, article from Harvard Business Review
Transcript
Peter Frank:
Phil, welcome to Talking Technology with ATLIS,
Peter Frank:
the show that plugs you into the important topics and trends for
Peter Frank:
technology leaders all through a unique Independent School lens.
Peter Frank:
We'll hear stories from technology directors and other
Peter Frank:
special guests from the Independent School community,
Peter Frank:
and provide you with focused learning and deep dive topics.
Peter Frank:
And now please welcome your host. Kristina Lewellen,
Christina Lewellen:
Hello everyone, and welcome back to
Christina Lewellen:
talking technology with Atlas. I'm Kristina Lewellen, the
Christina Lewellen:
President and CEO of the Association of Technology
Christina Lewellen:
Leaders in Independent
Bill Stites:
Schools. And I am Bill Stites, the Director of
Bill Stites:
Technology at Montclair Kimberly Academy in Montclair, New
Bill Stites:
Jersey. Hello, Bill. How are you today? I'm freezing today. It's
Bill Stites:
cold. It is
Christina Lewellen:
cold. I mean, you are in New Jersey.
Christina Lewellen:
It's always cold in New Jersey. Well, we're just
Bill Stites:
cold people, maybe. But I mean, in general, it is
Bill Stites:
cold outside and it's windy and it cuts right through you to the
Bill Stites:
bone,
Christina Lewellen:
it really does. I am in Atlanta today, and
Christina Lewellen:
I am doing the final visit of our property in terms of our
Christina Lewellen:
planning for the annual conference. And I'm getting
Christina Lewellen:
excited, like I'm walking through the space, and I can
Christina Lewellen:
kind of feel the energy of the Atlas people being with us. And
Christina Lewellen:
I'm getting real excited about annual conference.
Bill Stites:
I'm very much looking forward to that we have
Bill Stites:
a large contingent coming down. It's going to be something that
Bill Stites:
we're very excited for, and can't wait to see everyone that
Bill Stites:
goes this year. It's always my highlight of the year.
Christina Lewellen:
So I almost hate to say this, but on my way
Christina Lewellen:
out the door this week, one of my daughters was home, and my
Christina Lewellen:
husband and we were talking about the fact that I'm coming
Christina Lewellen:
down to Atlanta, and I was talking about the fact that you
Christina Lewellen:
and Hiram are constantly on me about this whole zombie thing,
Christina Lewellen:
so they saw fit to turn on the first episode of Walking Dead.
Christina Lewellen:
And I will admit that it kind of sucked me in. I still don't know
Christina Lewellen:
what's happening. They would lean over and be like, This is
Christina Lewellen:
how you kill them, right? And it's very graphic, so I'm not
Christina Lewellen:
sure if I recommend this or not, and I'm not sure if I'll watch
Christina Lewellen:
episode two, but I did watch one. So yay, yay, yay. You.
Christina Lewellen:
Okay, yeah,
Bill Stites:
you. It's about the human stories. It's about the
Bill Stites:
drama that I really like. It has nothing to do with the genre
Bill Stites:
whatsoever. It's a drama based series that I think has
Bill Stites:
excellent acting and directing, and it's well worth watching.
Bill Stites:
The zombies just are out at bonuses.
Christina Lewellen:
Bonuses, they're disgusting, all right.
Christina Lewellen:
Well, that's all I got for the intro. So there you go. Oh, but
Christina Lewellen:
we are in Atlanta and looking forward to our conference
Christina Lewellen:
registration is going really well. Our vendor community so
Christina Lewellen:
supportive as always. So we're really looking forward to it.
Christina Lewellen:
Two faces. I am certain we'll be walking those halls. We welcome
Christina Lewellen:
to the pod today. Louis to low, who is the Chief Information
Christina Lewellen:
Officer at Ravenscroft school, and I also have with us, Matt
Christina Lewellen:
Norco, the Director of Technology at Mar rural school.
Christina Lewellen:
Guys, thank you so much for joining us on the pod. Glad to
Christina Lewellen:
have you both here. Awesome
Louis Tullo:
to be here. Excited to chat with you all. And Matt,
Louis Tullo:
yep, it's great to be here. Thanks for having us.
Christina Lewellen:
So part of why we wanted to bring you in,
Christina Lewellen:
you guys, is that both of you have made some interesting moves
Christina Lewellen:
in your career. We talk a lot on the podcast about the fact that
Christina Lewellen:
the first generation tech leaders at independent schools
Christina Lewellen:
are starting to look toward the end of their careers. You know,
Christina Lewellen:
they might not be stepping out quite yet. They might not be
Christina Lewellen:
retiring quite yet, but with that phase of their careers kind
Christina Lewellen:
of firmly in their sites, they're starting to have
Christina Lewellen:
conversations around succession planning, business continuity
Christina Lewellen:
planning, and I know that both of you gentlemen have made some
Christina Lewellen:
pretty impressive leaps in the last couple years, so I really
Christina Lewellen:
wanted to talk to you a little bit about how you thought about
Christina Lewellen:
that and what your leadership styles are like now that you're
Christina Lewellen:
in these top leadership positions for your schools. But
Christina Lewellen:
before we walk that path together, I'll give you guys
Christina Lewellen:
just a second to introduce yourselves and tell us a little
Christina Lewellen:
bit about your background, Louis, we'll go to you first.
Louis Tullo:
Yeah, I've been working in it now for over 15
Louis Tullo:
years, which is kind of crazy to think about that, because
Louis Tullo:
originally graduated with my bachelor's degree in theater, so
Louis Tullo:
I thought my life was going to turn out much more differently
Louis Tullo:
than it has.
Christina Lewellen:
Now this is something that we have in
Christina Lewellen:
common, Louis, is that I'm a theater geek as well. I mean,
Christina Lewellen:
probably not as bad as you are, but we haven't even talked
Christina Lewellen:
wicked. That's where we should have started this conversation,
Christina Lewellen:
not with zombies, but with wicked. Yes.
Louis Tullo:
And I feel like I've done my job as a theater
Louis Tullo:
parent by converting my oldest to be completely obsessed with
Louis Tullo:
defying gravity. And I think we've together, watched the
Louis Tullo:
movie and maybe four or five times at home. Love it honestly,
Louis Tullo:
working in it started out as I'm auditioning in New York, and
Louis Tullo:
rather than working in food service, I'm going to work at
Louis Tullo:
the help desk, because that's what I did during college. And
Louis Tullo:
then as things slowly progressed, realized how much I
Louis Tullo:
enjoyed the fact that. That technology is constantly
Louis Tullo:
changing. It was an opportunity to connect with people in a way
Louis Tullo:
that I enjoyed doing so because of my theater background, and
Louis Tullo:
gratefully had some people along the way who saw leadership
Louis Tullo:
potential in me and gave me a shot, even though my background
Louis Tullo:
maybe made me the least likely candidate to be an IT leader and
Louis Tullo:
really found my calling in independent schools. So
Christina Lewellen:
you've always been on the tech side
Christina Lewellen:
rather than the teaching side, which is kind of unusual among
Christina Lewellen:
your peers.
Louis Tullo:
Yeah. And interestingly enough, my first
Louis Tullo:
tech job in an independent school, my title was the
Louis Tullo:
Director of Educational Technology. In an interview
Louis Tullo:
process, I had to basically prepare a TED style talk for a
Louis Tullo:
group of faculty and a technology initiative I wanted
Louis Tullo:
to lead. And I thought to myself, all right, let me just
Louis Tullo:
reflect on what impacted me the most as a student. Take my tech
Louis Tullo:
background, try to merge those two things together, obviously,
Louis Tullo:
with the theater kid energy into the space, and it was really
Louis Tullo:
exhilarating. So it's been an awesome opportunity getting to
Louis Tullo:
apply those tech things in the school space. Awesome.
Christina Lewellen:
And Matt, you most recently had been out
Christina Lewellen:
here in the cold on the East Coast, like Bill, and now you
Christina Lewellen:
are out in sunny California. So tell us a little bit about your
Christina Lewellen:
journey?
Matt Norko:
Yeah, absolutely. I think listening to Lewis, I
Matt Norko:
realized that my journey is probably the exact opposite,
Matt Norko:
literally in every respect. So I have a bachelor's in Business
Matt Norko:
and Information Systems, and just happened to see a job
Matt Norko:
posting for a tech role at a school from the newspaper. I
Matt Norko:
applied for this job back when it was a newspaper ad. And so
Matt Norko:
they were really little, it didn't have a lot. And I
Matt Norko:
remember going through the phone interviews and going for an on
Matt Norko:
site visit as a finalist, getting to the second interview
Matt Norko:
of the day with the division head and the assistant head at
Matt Norko:
the time. And they said, How do you feel about the teaching
Matt Norko:
part? And I'm like, How did nobody mention this yet? So I
Matt Norko:
sort of fell into a working at a school and then teaching, by
Matt Norko:
sure happenstance, and wound up teaching middle school and doing
Matt Norko:
academic tech integration work for 14 years. And I think for
Matt Norko:
me, it was more I was doing this work for a really long time, and
Matt Norko:
realized along the way, that rather than just be doing this
Matt Norko:
work, I wanted to help lead this work, and that's what led me to
Matt Norko:
go get a Master, is continue, sort of my academic journey, and
Matt Norko:
then ultimately transition from that school to other schools.
Matt Norko:
And now here, as you said, out in sunny California,
Christina Lewellen:
awesome. So one of the things I want to do
Christina Lewellen:
before we move into some of the reasons that we invited you here
Christina Lewellen:
is I've come to understand that different roles are called
Christina Lewellen:
different things at different schools. And so if I could ask
Christina Lewellen:
you to please describe what you are responsible for as the Chief
Christina Lewellen:
Information Officer at Ravenscroft, and then, of
Christina Lewellen:
course, we'll go to Matt. But every tech leader, the duties as
Christina Lewellen:
assigned is a little different for every school. So can you
Christina Lewellen:
describe for me, Lewis, what you're responsible for at your
Christina Lewellen:
school? In
Louis Tullo:
my role right now, I am in charge of the IT side of
Louis Tullo:
the house, which we call technical services so your rank
Louis Tullo:
and file, help desk, techs and support personnel who are
Louis Tullo:
awesome. I love my team. In addition, library services
Louis Tullo:
currently falls under my purview, although that's
Louis Tullo:
actually changing next year, with our Associate Head of
Louis Tullo:
Academic Affairs coming on board, and that falling under
Louis Tullo:
her, the registrar is a position, and all school
Louis Tullo:
registrar is one that I brought under my purview a couple of
Louis Tullo:
years ago and will remain here for now. In addition, our
Louis Tullo:
director of Ed Tech and all of our STEM plus faculty fall
Louis Tullo:
underneath my purview as well.
Christina Lewellen:
How about you, Matt, what does Director of
Christina Lewellen:
Technology mean to your school at Marlboro? Yeah,
Matt Norko:
so Mar rural is a little similar to Lewis's. So I
Matt Norko:
like to say everything that plugs in falls under tech here.
Matt Norko:
That means both the operational side of the tech house, the
Matt Norko:
educational side of the tech house, and then registrar,
Matt Norko:
mostly those pieces. This is like my fourth school, and so
Matt Norko:
that has looked so different at those different schools. It is
Matt Norko:
interesting to see how it plays out in different places. That's
Christina Lewellen:
exactly why I asked, because it's different
Christina Lewellen:
even for Bill and Hiram, just getting a sense of who's in
Christina Lewellen:
charge of what. All right, so my last question, and then I'll let
Christina Lewellen:
Bill jump in, is in terms of setting the groundwork. Tell us
Christina Lewellen:
a little bit about the nature of your schools. You both work at
Christina Lewellen:
fairly prominent schools, so a lot of folks probably know, but
Christina Lewellen:
like, what's the size of your team and what's your student
Christina Lewellen:
body look like? Ravenscroft,
Louis Tullo:
it's a day school, pre K through 12th grade, and we
Louis Tullo:
have about 12 150 students, give or take, depending on the point
Louis Tullo:
of the year that we're in. We are on a really large campus.
Louis Tullo:
Yes, it's 135 acres, 13 buildings. So there are a lot of
Louis Tullo:
things that connect and have wires, as Matt alluded to
Louis Tullo:
before, when he was talking about his role and the size of
Louis Tullo:
our team. We have about five FTEs on the IT side of the
Louis Tullo:
house, including myself, because I really put myself as like a co
Louis Tullo:
FTE, with all the different parts of my team, we have about
Louis Tullo:
five STEM faculty, registrars, Department of one. And the
Louis Tullo:
library services team is a department of five as well.
Louis Tullo:
We're
Matt Norko:
a department of five as well. We're a day school.
Matt Norko:
We're a seventh through 12th grade girls school with 530
Matt Norko:
students. We're an urban school, so we have, like, I don't know,
Matt Norko:
two acre campus, very compact. Everything's really squished
Matt Norko:
together, but a good FTE to student ratio on the tech side.
Matt Norko:
So Louis, I
Bill Stites:
actually have a question for you. And similarly,
Bill Stites:
Matt, I'd be curious as to your take on this if you think it
Bill Stites:
applies. So one of the conversations I had with Louis a
Bill Stites:
little while ago is when he came into this position, his title,
Bill Stites:
and Louis correct me if I'm wrong with CTO, and then you
Bill Stites:
moved over to CIO, the idea of what's in a name, and Christina
Bill Stites:
asked what all of our different responsibilities are. What was
Bill Stites:
the reason for your decision, the impetus for you wanting to
Bill Stites:
make that shift between the T and the i, and why did you see
Bill Stites:
or think that that was important? Yeah, that's
Louis Tullo:
a great question. And I think because I came from
Louis Tullo:
a corporate space before, my understanding of what CTO versus
Louis Tullo:
CIO might have been very different than what schools
Louis Tullo:
we're familiar with. Typically, if you're working in a company
Louis Tullo:
that builds technology products, like, if you want to take
Louis Tullo:
stereotypes, think of a company like Apple or HP or Lenovo or
Louis Tullo:
whatever, the person who's in that CTO role is really driving
Louis Tullo:
the product forward, really thinking about I'm building this
Louis Tullo:
solution, or coordinating the team of people that builds the
Louis Tullo:
solution. It's kind of an odd title in independent schools,
Louis Tullo:
because oftentimes we're not building platforms and software
Louis Tullo:
unless there's some sort of proprietary ed tech startup that
Louis Tullo:
lives inside of school. And anyway, that's besides the
Louis Tullo:
point, but a CIO really has oversight over the flow of data
Louis Tullo:
through a school, manages the IT service arm of an organization,
Louis Tullo:
and really possesses a lot of breadth of responsibility, and
Louis Tullo:
not necessarily the depth that I typically associated with a CTO
Louis Tullo:
around software development and product
Bill Stites:
and Matt, you went from a role as director to then
Bill Stites:
Chief Information and innovation and now back to a role of
Bill Stites:
director. What have those title shifts meant to you in terms of
Bill Stites:
when you were applying for these different types of jobs. Did
Bill Stites:
they carry any different emphasis or weight in your mind?
Bill Stites:
And how did you make the decision to make that change?
Bill Stites:
And are you looking to change that title, having had both in
Bill Stites:
your background? Yeah, you
Matt Norko:
know, I think it's like a really interesting
Matt Norko:
situation with title, because at the end of the day, the work
Matt Norko:
doesn't really change that much, right? But I think what I find,
Matt Norko:
especially kind of going back to kristina's question earlier,
Matt Norko:
like, as a director of technology, I have the core
Matt Norko:
things that I'm responsible for, but technology is so much bigger
Matt Norko:
than that, and so I'm liaising with all these departments, and
Matt Norko:
spend most of my time with the HR department, in admissions and
Matt Norko:
the business office, all these other spaces, as Louis said,
Matt Norko:
where the data is flowing Back and forth, and those are the
Matt Norko:
things that I'm doing all day. And so when you have a title
Matt Norko:
like director of technology, I think it automatically puts into
Matt Norko:
people's mind that you literally just do the things that plug in,
Matt Norko:
and you don't necessarily have something to do with the flow of
Matt Norko:
data or how things in your schools should be. And so I do
Matt Norko:
actually think that having those titles, like a chief information
Matt Norko:
officer or something of that nature, it gives a different
Matt Norko:
perception to the work that we do, and it's a little bit more
Matt Norko:
all encompassing than Director of Technology. Yeah, thank
Christina Lewellen:
you for that. I think that makes sense.
Christina Lewellen:
I mean, I made the same joke on a previous podcast when my title
Christina Lewellen:
changed, it was simply benchmarking around other
Christina Lewellen:
associations in the independent school space, but I still did
Christina Lewellen:
the same work the next day. It really didn't change anything
Christina Lewellen:
about the day to day. So I appreciate that perspective. All
Christina Lewellen:
right. So I want to ask you guys about You've each gone through
Christina Lewellen:
in the last couple of years a pretty significant job change,
Christina Lewellen:
leadership transition. So one of the things I'd love to spend
Christina Lewellen:
some time on is, how did you tackle that first school year?
Christina Lewellen:
How did you go about managing that as a leader, and from a
Christina Lewellen:
leadership perspective, the background and the context of
Christina Lewellen:
the conversation and part of why we wanted to have you on the pod
Christina Lewellen:
is that. When this year's data came out in the Atlas
Christina Lewellen:
compensation report, we are seeing a surprisingly high
Christina Lewellen:
number of respondents talking to us about a job change in the
Christina Lewellen:
next two years. So I don't want to overstate it or be
Christina Lewellen:
hyperbolic, but I do believe that we in our space are facing
Christina Lewellen:
a wave of transitions. There are a lot of tech leaders who have
Christina Lewellen:
some level of dissatisfaction at their current jobs and or
Christina Lewellen:
they're looking for more opportunity at a different
Christina Lewellen:
school. And so I think we're going to see a lot of job
Christina Lewellen:
changes in the next couple years. So the main thing I
Christina Lewellen:
really want to hit on with you guys is, how in the world did
Christina Lewellen:
you do it? You each, I believe, had to do a move, physical move.
Christina Lewellen:
And most tech leaders, when they take a new job, they have to
Christina Lewellen:
change locations. Rarely are you taking a job down the street.
Christina Lewellen:
You're generally moving to a different part of the country,
Christina Lewellen:
starting with a brand new team in a brand new school culture.
Christina Lewellen:
It has to be a bit overwhelming, so I'd love you to just sort of
Christina Lewellen:
reflect on that a little bit and tell us a little bit about how
Matt Norko:
you handled your first school year. This is the
Matt Norko:
third new school that I've been at, actually, and Louis and I
Matt Norko:
were talking one time a little bit earlier about the fact that
Matt Norko:
I've never actually taken over for a previous director. I've
Matt Norko:
filled roles where there hasn't been a director in each of the
Matt Norko:
last three schools that I've been at, and that makes for that
Matt Norko:
first year to be even more challenging, because there's no
Matt Norko:
roadmap, there's no transition time, there's no nice handoff
Matt Norko:
from one person to the next. And it's challenging, right? Because
Matt Norko:
you're hopefully walking into a space where you have a team, and
Matt Norko:
not just a department of one, but you have just your team
Matt Norko:
dynamics to figure out. You have your school culture to figure
Matt Norko:
out, then you have the actual bits of technology to figure
Matt Norko:
out. And for me, one of the things that's been most
Matt Norko:
important is figuring out where we are, whether or not there are
Matt Norko:
any expectations for where we need to go, and to figure out
Matt Norko:
whether or not there are opportunities to sort of quickly
Matt Norko:
get us into the right place. And I think that's one of the most
Matt Norko:
challenging things about coming into a school where there hasn't
Matt Norko:
been a tech director, is that a lot of things have just been
Matt Norko:
happening for the last couple of years without any sort of
Matt Norko:
direction. And so for me, it's a lot about figuring out what that
Matt Norko:
direction should be and then quickly actually making that
Matt Norko:
happen. And I think the old adage is, don't change anything
Matt Norko:
in your first year. And I have not followed that advice ever,
Matt Norko:
unfortunately.
Louis Tullo:
Well, I think a lot of things happen even when
Louis Tullo:
you're in the same spot that I was in, taking over for people
Louis Tullo:
who were previously in the role, I know, my first independent
Louis Tullo:
school technology leadership role, there was a director who
Louis Tullo:
had left and had sort of a study done by an MSP that was very
Louis Tullo:
popular regionally. You know, a report outlining, oh, these
Louis Tullo:
things really need to be taken care of. These are the
Louis Tullo:
opportunities for growth and things that you have to
Louis Tullo:
remediate. And so there was a pretty clear charge in my first
Louis Tullo:
technology role about what were priorities, things to look at,
Louis Tullo:
and things to look at specifically aimed at change.
Louis Tullo:
Because often, when you're coming into a new school, you're
Louis Tullo:
being hired not just as the expert in the space, but as a
Louis Tullo:
change agent. I found that to be the case when I moved back to
Louis Tullo:
the east coast from the West Coast back in 2021 right after
Louis Tullo:
COVID. I know when the job that I had opened up, it was
Louis Tullo:
legitimately my dream technology job. I had very low expectations
Louis Tullo:
that I'd have the opportunity to have a role like this so early
Louis Tullo:
in my career, and was really grateful that Jason Ramsden, one
Louis Tullo:
of the key people who was seminal to Atlas at the
Louis Tullo:
beginning, was available for transition calls prior to
Louis Tullo:
starting. Really kept me clued into where the bodies were
Louis Tullo:
buried and some of the personalities that I'd be facing
Louis Tullo:
and projects that he would have loved to have taken on if he was
Louis Tullo:
going to continue on. And so that first year was really about
Louis Tullo:
taking the posture of a scientist studying the
Louis Tullo:
landscape. Matt, I agree with you. I know that our out of
Louis Tullo:
school at the time was very leery about me making change,
Louis Tullo:
but I am so type A that once I see something, I can't unsee it.
Louis Tullo:
And there were definitely some opportunities for change,
Louis Tullo:
especially when it came to optimizing data and analytics,
Louis Tullo:
that I just couldn't resist that first year. And I think even
Louis Tullo:
with the transition to a new Head of School this past year
Louis Tullo:
who has a very different perspective when it comes to
Louis Tullo:
innovation and technology, there's been opportunities to
Louis Tullo:
kind of go back to that same space that I was in my first
Louis Tullo:
year at Ravenscroft, and again, be a scientist, but also
Louis Tullo:
continue to be that change agent to drive the school forward to
Louis Tullo:
where it needs to be.
Bill Stites:
So one quick question for the both of you.
Bill Stites:
You know, because you both have left a school to come into a new
Bill Stites:
school. And Lewis, you mentioned Jason's willingness and ability
Bill Stites:
to have those calls to work through those different things.
Bill Stites:
And I think the joke is, is that, oh, it's a July 1 start
Bill Stites:
date. The start date, at least I've seen in a lot, not that
Bill Stites:
I've changed a lot, but you know, in talking to a lot of
Bill Stites:
people, is the start date is really once you agree to start
Bill Stites:
the job, but to the point it's a matter of trying to get up to
Bill Stites:
speed, because trying to come into a job like this, where
Bill Stites:
there is so much institutional knowledge, so much knowledge
Bill Stites:
that may or may not necessarily be documented well coming into
Bill Stites:
it, and that learning curve can be fairly steep when you're
Bill Stites:
starting. So thinking about how that is managed, I think, is
Bill Stites:
really important. So the question is actually for both of
Bill Stites:
you, in terms of, what did you do in your previous jobs before
Bill Stites:
leaving to set the person up that is following you for
Bill Stites:
success, and then what did you do with the school or with the
Bill Stites:
team or with the person for which you were coming in behind
Bill Stites:
at your new school. What did you do to make sure that you were
Bill Stites:
again set up for that same level of success that you would like
Bill Stites:
to have left for the person following you?
Christina Lewellen:
Yeah, is it like you kind of have to do two
Christina Lewellen:
jobs for half of a school year? Or at least your brain has to be
Christina Lewellen:
maybe in two places?
Matt Norko:
Yeah, definitely. So when I just left my school in
Matt Norko:
Massachusetts, I was lucky enough to have transition time
Matt Norko:
with my replacement, and so we didn't have a ton of time. We
Matt Norko:
had about a 10 day overlap. It allowed me time to sort of get
Matt Norko:
things in place for him, have some time to work through things
Matt Norko:
with him, get him set up for the coming school year, and then off
Matt Norko:
I went, but he and I have still been in contact, and it's been
Matt Norko:
six months. And so, I mean, that's something I would think
Matt Norko:
is a professional courtesy, but also, just as a tech person like
Matt Norko:
we know that the tech community is pretty communal, and so just
Matt Norko:
being there for people, I think, is obviously really helpful, and
Matt Norko:
that's definitely an aspect of things that that is helpful, as
Matt Norko:
Lewis said, like reaching out to Jason, knowing that he knows
Matt Norko:
certain things. Louis can text him today and it's been three
Matt Norko:
years, but Jason will respond. On my end, coming into a job
Matt Norko:
where there wasn't a person made that more difficult, as Lewis
Matt Norko:
said, I was hired to be a change agent, like I was hired for my
Matt Norko:
knowledge, for my ability to come in and just figure it out.
Matt Norko:
And unfortunately, that is sometimes what you have to do.
Matt Norko:
And for me, because I didn't have a tech person to be able to
Matt Norko:
talk to, like, obviously I could talk to my tech team about the
Matt Norko:
daily stuff, but that didn't necessarily help with the
Matt Norko:
direction of technology at the school or bigger decisions that
Matt Norko:
have been made. And so for me, it was just a lot of talking
Matt Norko:
with people. Unfortunately, it wasn't always on the tech side,
Matt Norko:
but it was every administrator on this campus. It was every
Matt Norko:
consultant that I could do, reaching out to my local area
Matt Norko:
like Jim is not too far away, so that's really helpful. And
Matt Norko:
understanding the landscape of like this geographic area and
Matt Norko:
like vendors that are available things like that. Obviously, if
Matt Norko:
you have somebody that you can reach out to, that's always
Matt Norko:
best, but you don't have to, like, you can make it work
Matt Norko:
without actually doing that. And that is, I think, the reason why
Matt Norko:
we do the work that we do. And Christina, you alluded earlier
Matt Norko:
the T list, like, there's reasons why we're in the places
Matt Norko:
that we're in, and so being able to just jump into a school and
Matt Norko:
make it happen. That's why we're hired.
Louis Tullo:
Yeah, I completely agree Matt, and I think when I
Louis Tullo:
thought about helping Bobby, who's at Athenian, where I was
Louis Tullo:
at prior to Ravenscroft transition, the thing that came
Louis Tullo:
to mind first is schools operate on this calendar, and the thing
Louis Tullo:
that could really make or break an IT leaders. Initial
Louis Tullo:
impression at a school is the way that they're able to get the
Louis Tullo:
plane off the ground at the beginning of a school year and
Louis Tullo:
land it at the end, and so really providing good
Louis Tullo:
documentation resources, talking through those unique pieces of
Louis Tullo:
what they look like at a particular school in transition
Louis Tullo:
meetings was something that I prioritized. And I think
Louis Tullo:
thankfully, again, thinking about the T list and those
Louis Tullo:
domains when I was in my prior role, up until the point that I
Louis Tullo:
made the decision to leave, I had tried to instill a lot of
Louis Tullo:
structure, documentation, things about it, operations and Ed
Louis Tullo:
Tech. So that way, when I was handing things off to the person
Louis Tullo:
who was taking my place, that they had a set of resources they
Louis Tullo:
could very easily navigate. And I would say that Jason really
Louis Tullo:
did the same for me coming into Ravenscroft, it was immensely
Louis Tullo:
helpful. I think the key sort of getting to what Matt was saying
Louis Tullo:
about organizations having that trust and a tech leader to drive
Louis Tullo:
the ship when they come on board. If you are transitioning
Louis Tullo:
someone, it's important to give them a heads up so they can be
Louis Tullo:
successful, but not lead with that just because this is the
Louis Tullo:
way things have. Always been done that you shouldn't broach
Louis Tullo:
changing it. I think sometimes a less seasoned it leader can say,
Louis Tullo:
Oh, I just need to continue the momentum of this train so it
Louis Tullo:
keeps going. But the reality is, tech in schools is constantly
Louis Tullo:
changing. COVID showed us that. AI is showing us that, and if we
Louis Tullo:
continue to rely simply on the way things were done in the
Louis Tullo:
past, and I don't have this willingness to change moving
Louis Tullo:
forward, even if we're going into a new role in a new school,
Louis Tullo:
then we're not serving our communities in the way that we
Louis Tullo:
should be.
Christina Lewellen:
So let's stop down on that, actually,
Christina Lewellen:
Louis, because I think that that's where I was sort of
Christina Lewellen:
heading next anyway. Is that okay? So year one, you are
Christina Lewellen:
observing, you are learning from, hopefully, the person who
Christina Lewellen:
had the job before you, and you're getting used to the
Christina Lewellen:
dynamics at your new school. So school year one is kind of
Christina Lewellen:
scientist mode, right? Cool. So how do you then begin to do
Christina Lewellen:
exactly what you're talking about, which is you've observed
Christina Lewellen:
for a year, and now you're going into your first summer leading
Christina Lewellen:
into your second school year. How do you begin to start
Christina Lewellen:
getting those change flywheels moving? To me, the
Louis Tullo:
technology leader is only as good as the team that
Louis Tullo:
is working for them. And so really taking a look at what
Louis Tullo:
team members are doing on a day to day basis, balancing getting
Louis Tullo:
in the weeds, not to micromanage people, but to build empathy,
Louis Tullo:
and say like, Oh, our frontline help desk person is dealing with
Louis Tullo:
X, Y and Z, how should their job description and responsibility
Louis Tullo:
shift so that they're not just coming at supporting it from a
Louis Tullo:
reactive place, but being proactive and strategic and
Louis Tullo:
doing the same for all different roles in the team? You know that
Louis Tullo:
means on the teaching side, observing people in class. How
Louis Tullo:
are teachers using tech, those that are STEM faculty, and maybe
Louis Tullo:
those who aren't. So that way you can say, Oh, we've had this
Louis Tullo:
piece of AV going for a while, and these solutions in place,
Louis Tullo:
but maybe we need to evolve, because it's limiting the
Louis Tullo:
teaching in this way or that way. So finding that balance
Louis Tullo:
between being very proximate to the community that you're
Louis Tullo:
working with but also thinking at a high strategic level is
Louis Tullo:
really important. I would say that's the first step.
Matt Norko:
Yeah. And I also think one of the things that's
Matt Norko:
particularly challenging about this work at a school,
Matt Norko:
especially in your first year, is that, you know, a lot of
Matt Norko:
this, to be clear, revolves around money. I can give you an
Matt Norko:
example. I started here in August. Well, budget meeting
Matt Norko:
started in November. So how much of a runway am I going to get
Matt Norko:
before I need to have my plans done for next July? So I don't
Matt Norko:
necessarily have the luxury of like, an entire school year
Matt Norko:
waiting to observe because then it's another whole summer of not
Matt Norko:
doing anything and then putting things in the budget for the
Matt Norko:
following year. And so to Lewis's point, like observing
Matt Norko:
what people are doing, where those pain points are, what some
Matt Norko:
other people's priorities are, and trying to put either a
Matt Norko:
return on ROI or a value on investment to the things that
Matt Norko:
we're doing is really helpful. I'll give you an example, like
Matt Norko:
for us, the phone system that we were using is just not right for
Matt Norko:
us. Not that I wanted to change the phone system within my first
Matt Norko:
year, but it just made a lot of sense for us to do it over
Matt Norko:
spring break. And so the amount of return that we're going to
Matt Norko:
see by doing that project over our spring break, which is eight
Matt Norko:
months into my tenure here, is going to be immense, because the
Matt Norko:
new system is going to allow us to do so much more stuff that we
Matt Norko:
actually can do, and reduce a lot of those pain points. End up
Matt Norko:
cheaper on the budget, a whole bunch of different things that
Matt Norko:
are definitely just where we need to be, at that strategic
Matt Norko:
level, that are just not currently there. It's
Matt Norko:
interesting
Christina Lewellen:
because it sounds like there's a little bit
Christina Lewellen:
of a journey in all of this, and whether you're a couple years
Christina Lewellen:
into your job, or like Bill, who's been around for several
Christina Lewellen:
decades, there's always this kind of cyclical nature, because
Christina Lewellen:
it's technology. It's not like you do a project once and then
Christina Lewellen:
you ride it out for the next 25 years. I mean, often, even
Christina Lewellen:
talking about phone systems, you know, if it was done five or six
Christina Lewellen:
years ago. It probably needs to be looked at again. In any
Christina Lewellen:
number of technology solutions always need that kind of
Christina Lewellen:
evaluation. So it's cyclical like that.
Matt Norko:
Not only that, I would also say, like some of the
Matt Norko:
projects are so long in their implementation. So, you know, we
Matt Norko:
have a blackboard renewal coming up, and we have to decide, do we
Matt Norko:
want to stick with Blackboard are going to look at something
Matt Norko:
else, and if we are going to look at something else, how much
Matt Norko:
of runway do we actually need? Because we're all in on one
Matt Norko:
product. So if we're going to look elsewhere, that's a 24
Matt Norko:
month implementation from beginning to end. And so even
Matt Norko:
just coming up with what contract you choose now to give
Matt Norko:
yourself the ability to make a transition. Question Two years
Matt Norko:
from now is something that you have to consider, and is like an
Matt Norko:
important piece in figuring out, even in your first year. Matt,
Bill Stites:
one quick question for you. So I find it very
Bill Stites:
interesting. You know, you came into a program where you had
Bill Stites:
there were staff there, but there wasn't leadership in place
Bill Stites:
for that. Coming into that type of environment, what has it been
Bill Stites:
like to try to re establish leadership in this area where
Bill Stites:
there's been either the status quo or this vacuum of that for
Bill Stites:
the time since you've been there so far?
Matt Norko:
Yeah, it's really hard. Like it's not something
Matt Norko:
that happens overnight. It's been, I think, two and a half
Matt Norko:
years since there's been a person in my role, and in two
Matt Norko:
and a half years, the culture of the organization can really
Matt Norko:
shift. And so the immediate sort of things that I know are that
Matt Norko:
my role is not necessarily regarded as like a thought
Matt Norko:
partner automatically. It's not that people have anything
Matt Norko:
against me, but because there hasn't been that person here,
Matt Norko:
they're not coming to me and my role and being that thought
Matt Norko:
partner before things show up. And so just last year, we had a
Matt Norko:
couple of softwares that other departments just adopted, and
Matt Norko:
they sort of showed up in August when I got here, and I'm like,
Matt Norko:
How did nobody know about this? Like, and so that's a
Matt Norko:
challenging thing to overcome that takes a lot of patience and
Matt Norko:
a lot of thoughtful work and a lot of outreach on my part,
Matt Norko:
again, because people aren't really used to it. So if I'm not
Matt Norko:
inserting myself in certain conversations, I'm not going to
Matt Norko:
be part of them. And then ultimately, we're the ones that
Matt Norko:
are sort of left supporting that work. And so it's beneficial for
Matt Norko:
the school, it's beneficial for me to make sure that I am
Matt Norko:
inserting myself into any and all conversations that can
Matt Norko:
happen. And
Bill Stites:
Louis, to the flip of that, you were following
Bill Stites:
someone who had a very large footprint, I think both probably
Bill Stites:
at Raven, given the time and tenure, and the fact, you know,
Bill Stites:
his wife was working there, and everything that went on at
Bill Stites:
Atlas. So there were big shoes to fill, and there was, I think,
Bill Stites:
a certain way in which things had been done, and a certain
Bill Stites:
expectation for the way the rhythm and flow of things. I had
Bill Stites:
the good fortune of actually being able to go out there for a
Bill Stites:
site visit. So I got to see the school first hand, and what that
Bill Stites:
was like, and see the immenseness of that. What was
Bill Stites:
that like, following someone like that and either again,
Bill Stites:
establishing yourself for who you are and your style of
Bill Stites:
leadership. Yeah,
Louis Tullo:
I would say that it was both a blessing and a curse
Louis Tullo:
to be 100% transparent. I think because Jason had built such
Louis Tullo:
good will amongst the community when a lot of people were very
Louis Tullo:
satisfied with the way that things were from a technology
Louis Tullo:
perspective. I think some people thought, Oh, well, Lewis is
Louis Tullo:
going to come in, and he must be capable of doing this job, and
Louis Tullo:
so he'll just continue what Jason was doing. And it was
Louis Tullo:
interesting when there were points and I said, Well, I might
Louis Tullo:
approach that a little bit differently and having to really
Louis Tullo:
justify myself and making a change. I remember probably the
Louis Tullo:
first time that I really had to do that was when I pitched an
Louis Tullo:
all school registrar role. Previously there was a registrar
Louis Tullo:
in the Upper School. They just took care of that. Scheduling
Louis Tullo:
was done at the division level. And when our Upper School
Louis Tullo:
registrar was retiring, I said, given the fact that we are in a
Louis Tullo:
pre K through 12 institution and that the person who sits in the
Louis Tullo:
seat manages so much key academic data for the school,
Louis Tullo:
what are we losing by having this function just live within a
Louis Tullo:
single division, rather than looking at our school as a
Louis Tullo:
whole? And you had a variety of reactions, you know, Lower
Louis Tullo:
School administrators who thought, oh my gosh, like we're
Louis Tullo:
dealing with stuff in kid land all day long. Please take
Louis Tullo:
registrar stuff from us. It's a welcome change. And then you had
Louis Tullo:
people on the upper school side who are like, well, we're a
Louis Tullo:
little bit different than the middle and the Lower School and
Louis Tullo:
so we want to make sure that our needs are being met, and don't
Louis Tullo:
want it diluted by having this person be responsible for
Louis Tullo:
scheduling as a whole. But when it came down to it really having
Louis Tullo:
conversations with people in different spaces and showing
Louis Tullo:
them the fact that if we're going to really be data driven
Louis Tullo:
our decision making, it starts with our key data, which is in
Louis Tullo:
the academic side of the house, then this change has to happen.
Louis Tullo:
That's just one example of places where I've had say, I see
Louis Tullo:
things differently. Here's some data that is informing a
Louis Tullo:
hypothesis that I have, if we make this change, I believe that
Louis Tullo:
we will be able to whatever the end of that sentence is, and
Louis Tullo:
really taking the time to not end change when, like the person
Louis Tullo:
is hired or the. Equipment is bought and say no, I'm not gonna
Louis Tullo:
just say, all right, things are great now I'm gonna carry things
Louis Tullo:
through to the support stage, and as people are experiencing
Louis Tullo:
the pains of dealing with change that I've made support them and
Louis Tullo:
bring them along the way has been key in having my leadership
Louis Tullo:
style be received, and hopefully the way that it's intended to be
Louis Tullo:
received. I
Christina Lewellen:
have a question for all three of you. I
Christina Lewellen:
did mention earlier that we've got a lot of our peers who are
Christina Lewellen:
considering a job change in the next two years. If a colleague
Christina Lewellen:
in our space calls you and says, I'm thinking about changing
Christina Lewellen:
jobs, how do I know if it's the right time? Do you have any
Christina Lewellen:
advice or guidance or lenses through which they can make that
Christina Lewellen:
decision?
Bill Stites:
I will say I think it depends on where the position
Bill Stites:
is, because you may know about the school like so if it's
Bill Stites:
something that is going on in the area, if it's something that
Bill Stites:
opens up regionally, you may have some personal experience
Bill Stites:
there, or people that you may know that are at the school that
Bill Stites:
you can reach out to. So I think those first hand or those first
Bill Stites:
hand adjacent, I don't wanna say second, but those close ties
Bill Stites:
that you may have with people that are either there or have
Bill Stites:
interacted with them, that you can reach out into a trusted
Bill Stites:
sense, I think, is incredibly important, because you'll also
Bill Stites:
see the way in which those schools and those organizations
Bill Stites:
interact, not only in their own space, but at the state level.
Bill Stites:
So How involved are they, like for us in New Jersey, How
Bill Stites:
involved are they at NJI s, do I see them participating? Do I see
Bill Stites:
them out there? Are they involved? Atlas, are they
Bill Stites:
involved in other areas? So to get a feel from that and
Bill Stites:
understand what's going on there. The other thing that I
Bill Stites:
always tell people to do is dig in on the website. And how much
Bill Stites:
can you find on the website that either speaks to the mission and
Bill Stites:
value of the schools? Because you want to make sure those are
Bill Stites:
aligned, that you're in alignment with those things,
Bill Stites:
more so than anything else. But the other thing, from an IT
Bill Stites:
perspective, is, how well is it represented on their public
Bill Stites:
facing website? Because I think that speaks a lot to what goes
Bill Stites:
on there and what that might be like, and you're going to be
Bill Stites:
able to get as much information as possible, kind of reconning
Bill Stites:
those public areas, in those public spaces where that might
Bill Stites:
be. And lastly, what I do with everyone, before we record the
Bill Stites:
podcast or before I speak to everyone, stalk them online, see
Bill Stites:
what's going on, via LinkedIn, via Twitter, who are the people
Bill Stites:
there, who are the players there, and get an idea of what
Bill Stites:
are they posting, what are they talking about, and equally as
Bill Stites:
much, what aren't they saying? Or are they not saying anything
Bill Stites:
at all, because then I think that tells a story as well. So
Bill Stites:
those would be some of the areas where I think I would jump in. I
Matt Norko:
think this is a really loaded question in many
Matt Norko:
respects, because if you're talking about moving on for
Matt Norko:
career progression, I think it's obviously a much more linear
Matt Norko:
path. But again, this is my fourth school, and I've been
Matt Norko:
through a few things. I think some of what Bill said was
Matt Norko:
really key to me, right? Like, if you see the school's mission
Matt Norko:
or culture not in alignment with your own, then that's a clear
Matt Norko:
sign that it's probably time to start looking I think also, if
Matt Norko:
you feel like you just need to put your head down and do your
Matt Norko:
work and get through the day, that's probably not where you
Matt Norko:
want to be. We all talk about the Independent Schools as being
Matt Norko:
such a warm and welcoming community where we all feel
Matt Norko:
appreciated and loved and known. And if you don't feel that way,
Matt Norko:
then I think probably there's something missing there, and I
Matt Norko:
know that's happened to me, where I like my job, but
Matt Norko:
something is not right there. And so I've known that okay, as
Matt Norko:
much as I like Job, I like the setting, I like the school, I
Matt Norko:
like my colleagues, it's still not the right fit for me. And so
Matt Norko:
it's time to move on, and I think that could be challenging,
Matt Norko:
and particularly if there's any sort of acrimony or animosity,
Matt Norko:
especially if you're serving on a leadership team, it might not
Matt Norko:
be all cakes and roses. Luckily, I've not really been in that
Matt Norko:
position, which is great. But leaving on good terms is
Matt Norko:
certainly a good thing. But also knowing when is time to go is
Matt Norko:
really important. And if there are a lot of jobs available,
Matt Norko:
that's great. There is always one tech director at every
Matt Norko:
school, right? There's not four options at every school. And so
Matt Norko:
your options may be limited, and especially if you don't have the
Matt Norko:
luxury of just up and moving to a different side of the country,
Matt Norko:
which is a luxury. And so knowing when to look knowing
Matt Norko:
when to leave, I think, are really important. But you know
Matt Norko:
when it doesn't feel right, and that's when you need to look
Matt Norko:
that's
Christina Lewellen:
a really good distinction. The idea of
Christina Lewellen:
career mapping and looking for advancement versus moving on
Christina Lewellen:
because you're discontent, those are clearly two different
Christina Lewellen:
things, and hopefully it's more about the next opportunity than
Christina Lewellen:
it is about not being satisfied. Your current place, but things
Christina Lewellen:
happen, and not every organization is the perfect fit
Christina Lewellen:
for every leader. Yeah,
Louis Tullo:
and I'm thinking like a lot about what Matt said
Louis Tullo:
and both my own career journey, and then I feel fortunate in
Louis Tullo:
that a lot of people in the Atlas community have reached
Louis Tullo:
out, as they were like, considering new jobs and going
Louis Tullo:
to new places and wanting to talk through the possibility of
Louis Tullo:
change, and in some cases, if a friend trusts you to be
Louis Tullo:
vulnerable and share that they're looking for a new job
Louis Tullo:
and put themselves out there, especially in a community small
Louis Tullo:
as ours, being a person to ask really thoughtful questions
Louis Tullo:
about why they're looking to make a change and have them see
Louis Tullo:
for themselves whether they're ready to make that change or
Louis Tullo:
not. Is really important. There have been times where I maybe
Louis Tullo:
had doubts whether someone was ready for a change, but it's not
Louis Tullo:
my place to make that decision for them, but I knew as like a
Louis Tullo:
friend and someone who cared for them, not as like a direct
Louis Tullo:
colleague, but as somebody in my PLN that I was going to ask
Louis Tullo:
questions so that hopefully, maybe they could reflect on
Louis Tullo:
their own leadership journey prior to considering making a
Louis Tullo:
change. I think that's really important, sort of connecting to
Louis Tullo:
what Matt was saying. And then when it comes to applying to a
Louis Tullo:
school, I think the first thing that you really need to see, and
Louis Tullo:
that goes back more to what Bill was saying is that does the
Louis Tullo:
school's identity, do their mission and values align with a
Louis Tullo:
place that you want to be at? Because technology is part of
Louis Tullo:
how a school functions, and if you don't see the way in which
Louis Tullo:
your role as a technology leader connects to the mission and the
Louis Tullo:
values and the vision of a school it's going to be not the
Louis Tullo:
greatest place for you to work. The other thing that I learned
Louis Tullo:
as I made my transition to my current role is that I want to
Louis Tullo:
know everything I can about the person that I'm reporting to, so
Louis Tullo:
whether the technology leader reports to a CFO or head of
Louis Tullo:
school, you want to really get a sense of, Am I going to enjoy
Louis Tullo:
working with this person? Do I get the sense that they'll care
Louis Tullo:
about me as a professional and the ways in which I want to
Louis Tullo:
grow? Are they going to be someone who has my back? Because
Louis Tullo:
inevitably, in technology, things go wrong, and if you get
Louis Tullo:
the sense during an interview that this person might throw you
Louis Tullo:
under the bus when something bad happens, that could make a very
Louis Tullo:
divisive working environment. So really, interviewing your
Louis Tullo:
potential boss is just as important as the school
Louis Tullo:
interviewing you, and then I think some people conflate being
Louis Tullo:
a really good manager with being a leader, and that's sort of
Louis Tullo:
what I was getting to at the beginning, when I just started
Louis Tullo:
talking about being ready to assume a technology leadership
Louis Tullo:
position or not. Management involves the way that you assign
Louis Tullo:
people tasks and get projects from the start to the finish
Louis Tullo:
line, but a really good leader has a strategic vision for where
Louis Tullo:
things are going to be in the future. They're not only
Louis Tullo:
managing the day to day, but they're saying 510, years from
Louis Tullo:
now, I want to see our school operating in this space. And I
Louis Tullo:
would say, honestly for me, that did not happen until I was in
Louis Tullo:
the role that I was in currently, and I happened to be
Louis Tullo:
reporting to a head of school who was super dynamic, Doreen
Louis Tullo:
Kelly, who's retired this past year because she wasn't in the
Louis Tullo:
weeds managing my role as a technologist. She was like, what
Louis Tullo:
kind of leader do you want to be? And it forced me to ask
Louis Tullo:
questions and do things in my department that I never thought
Louis Tullo:
I would it's important
Christina Lewellen:
because I think that as leaders in this
Christina Lewellen:
space, we're acknowledging and part of why we're having this
Christina Lewellen:
conversation is that it's certainly not getting easier.
Christina Lewellen:
It's getting more complex. And I guess you could argue that all
Christina Lewellen:
things get complex over time, but in particular, the role of
Christina Lewellen:
the technology leader at schools, there's just a lot of
Christina Lewellen:
things for which you're responsible. So how do you guys
Christina Lewellen:
juggle that, whether you're new to your job or whether you've
Christina Lewellen:
been there for a long time? What are some of the ways that you
Christina Lewellen:
look for and find balance in terms of just all the
Christina Lewellen:
conflicting priorities and people pulling you in a million
Christina Lewellen:
directions?
Louis Tullo:
Yeah, I was smiling because as a leadership team, we
Louis Tullo:
recently read an article from Harvard Business for you, it's a
Louis Tullo:
very old article about whose monkey is it when you're talking
Louis Tullo:
about time management, and how sometimes people will come to
Louis Tullo:
you they've got a monkey on your back. And our new head of
Louis Tullo:
school, Derrick Willard, really did a great job of getting us to
Louis Tullo:
think way more critically about different kinds of time, things
Louis Tullo:
that are imposed by the system that you're in, things that are
Louis Tullo:
imposed by your boss, and things that you have some autonomy over
Louis Tullo:
as well. And so when I think about all the things that maybe
Louis Tullo:
fall into other duties as a sign. And that appear on a job
Louis Tullo:
description. For a technologist, the less autonomy you have on
Louis Tullo:
your time, the harder it is to make those sort of strategic
Louis Tullo:
moves. I mean, you think about something like AI and what it
Louis Tullo:
means to integrate that into the technology program at your
Louis Tullo:
school, both on the operational side and on the teaching and
Louis Tullo:
learning side, you need to be able to sit down as a tech
Louis Tullo:
leader, understand the landscape of tools the way people are
Louis Tullo:
using them, how it impacts cyber security. And it's impossible to
Louis Tullo:
do that if you're sitting in your office and people are
Louis Tullo:
constantly wanting your help to run this report or fix this
Louis Tullo:
issue. Back to the whole idea of time management and monkeys
Louis Tullo:
really delegating things well to the members of your team, giving
Louis Tullo:
them a sense of ownership of the work that they do, so that they
Louis Tullo:
can support you, and your ability to function
Louis Tullo:
strategically, I think, is very key, and it's hard to do that
Louis Tullo:
when you're wired to want to fix things and get them off your
Louis Tullo:
list quickly, but I think ultimately it's what helps you
Louis Tullo:
to be a really great leader. Yeah,
Matt Norko:
to Lewis's point earlier, like I think there's a
Matt Norko:
fair number of tech folks who are happy being good managers,
Matt Norko:
good tech managers, and not necessarily good tech leaders.
Matt Norko:
And I know of colleagues who are in similar positions and their
Matt Norko:
schools are not really pushing forward, and we don't really
Matt Norko:
have the luxury of not pushing forward right. Whether it's a
Matt Norko:
cyber security threat or AI is coming on, whatever there might
Matt Norko:
be, you have to be operating in that strategic space. I
Matt Norko:
definitely see how being somebody with, like, boots on
Matt Norko:
the ground, understanding what's going on in the day to day will
Matt Norko:
help you figure out just how to manage tasks well. But I think
Matt Norko:
that also lets you identify, like, where there can be
Matt Norko:
efficiencies, how life can be a little bit better, where are
Matt Norko:
there possible risks, and how can you mitigate those? And then
Matt Norko:
keeping all of that in mind while you're also thinking
Matt Norko:
about, as Louis said, like, where do you want to be in five
Matt Norko:
years? Like, you can't just get there. What do you need to do
Matt Norko:
today in order to get to where you are 510, years from now? And
Matt Norko:
certainly for me, like a huge piece is just keeping up with
Matt Norko:
everything. It is so easy to just put that off and just not
Matt Norko:
do it, because there are so many things happening in the day to
Matt Norko:
day, to day, whether or not it's running a report or fixing a
Matt Norko:
switch or doing something, but if you don't keep up with all
Matt Norko:
the stuff that's going on, you're never going to be able to
Matt Norko:
devote enough time to figuring out where you need to be. And
Matt Norko:
for us, that's like the most important thing is evolving with
Matt Norko:
everything that's happening, and making sure that our schools are
Matt Norko:
prepared to do that. That is the whole point of Atlas, right?
Matt Norko:
Making sure that our schools are prepared to do all this stuff.
Matt Norko:
And if we're not doing our part, whether or not that's going to
Matt Norko:
conferences or just keeping updated with our PL ends, we're
Matt Norko:
not able to do that, and then we're doing a disservice to our
Matt Norko:
schools 100%
Bill Stites:
it's the team, and it's a leadership style. You've
Bill Stites:
got to successfully develop your team. You've got to prioritize
Bill Stites:
the work that they're doing. Lewis, you mentioned earlier,
Bill Stites:
you know you're not micromanaging, you're not
Bill Stites:
sitting there on top of them. You delegate, and then you lead,
Bill Stites:
and it depends on the leadership style that you choose, and can
Bill Stites:
see that in yourself, and know who you are as best as possible,
Bill Stites:
and then know who you have under you that is working with you. I
Bill Stites:
shouldn't even say under you working with you, because it is
Bill Stites:
that team approach. And then moving forward, because Matt,
Bill Stites:
you said it, there's so much that goes on in the day to day.
Bill Stites:
There's so many pieces that we're sitting there struggling
Bill Stites:
with that could just consume us in the day to day that we would
Bill Stites:
never get to that visioning piece, if not. I also think the
Bill Stites:
visioning piece, and Matt, you mentioned this, being seen as
Bill Stites:
that thought partner, getting into those conversations, making
Bill Stites:
sure that you're involved, I think, is really helpful. And I
Bill Stites:
think if you're starting a new position, figuring out how to be
Bill Stites:
invited to those or maybe even crash those conversations in a
Bill Stites:
respectful sense, I think, is important. And part of all what
Bill Stites:
we need to be thinking about when we make those types of
Bill Stites:
changes, or when we're in our current place for 31 years, and
Bill Stites:
we need to keep those conversations going absolutely
Christina Lewellen:
so before we run out of time with you guys
Christina Lewellen:
today, the last thing I would really love to spend a brief
Christina Lewellen:
moment on is the role of the T list so the technology leader in
Christina Lewellen:
independent school certification, all three of you
Christina Lewellen:
were instrumental in helping this program get up and running.
Christina Lewellen:
If there are folks in our space who aspire to be a CIO or a
Christina Lewellen:
technology director at a larger school, really kind of looking
Christina Lewellen:
to map out their career and take those next steps. Can you help
Christina Lewellen:
us understand how the T list can help in these types of career
Christina Lewellen:
transitions? I was having a conversation
Matt Norko:
with the head of school who was hiring for a tech
Matt Norko:
physician. He had an English. Background, and said, if this
Matt Norko:
was an English position, I would know what to look for, but it's
Matt Norko:
a tech position, I just don't know what to look for. Then I
Matt Norko:
started to explain what the T list was, but I'm hiring right
Matt Norko:
now for a position on our team, a network and Systems
Matt Norko:
Specialist. And you know, there are certain things that I want
Matt Norko:
to see in the resume. There are certain like keywords that I
Matt Norko:
would love to see. And some of them have them. Some of them
Matt Norko:
don't have them. And when I think about the T list in terms
Matt Norko:
of going for tech positions, like if I saw T lists, I would
Matt Norko:
know that they have an understanding of certain things.
Matt Norko:
So I don't necessarily need to see every single keyword in that
Matt Norko:
resume. Just by them having that certification, I know that they
Matt Norko:
have exposure, depth of knowledge, and just a logical
Matt Norko:
understanding of all these different domains that are
Matt Norko:
covered in the T list. So I don't have to worry as much
Matt Norko:
whether or not they have five extra years of job experience
Matt Norko:
that has all these bullet points. I know that they contain
Matt Norko:
that knowledge and are ready for a leadership position.
Louis Tullo:
Yeah, one of the things that I think is the most
Louis Tullo:
powerful differentiators of the T list is the fact that it gives
Louis Tullo:
you real insight into the way a technology leader thinks. And I
Louis Tullo:
know that as we were in the process of developing the
Louis Tullo:
certification, I was in the middle of like a master's
Louis Tullo:
program at the same time, and when I think about some of the
Louis Tullo:
questions that we developed in the way that we approach this
Louis Tullo:
test, the level of intentionality around assessing
Louis Tullo:
somebody's thought process when they're confronted with a
Louis Tullo:
particular scenario in using their IT knowledge and that
Louis Tullo:
leading to what is the correct answer on the exam stood out to
Louis Tullo:
me. So clearly, I just thought to myself so many times, this is
Louis Tullo:
something that is at the level of master's level work, or
Louis Tullo:
something beyond it, because you can teach somebody how to create
Louis Tullo:
a network or manage systems or do AV work, or, you know, all
Louis Tullo:
the technical things that go into our job, but applying that
Louis Tullo:
knowledge in a way that's going to drive things forward is
Louis Tullo:
something entirely different. So when you think that the whole
Louis Tullo:
certification is aimed at endorsing people for leadership,
Louis Tullo:
yes, like Matt said, it's assumed that you know how to do
Louis Tullo:
X, Y and Z things, but those four letters say, not only do
Louis Tullo:
you know those things, but you can apply that knowledge in an
Louis Tullo:
independent school environment. And I think that's
Christina Lewellen:
crucial, and that's really where we started
Christina Lewellen:
the T list journey was that you weren't going to be able to
Christina Lewellen:
memorize answers out of a book and take this exam. It was very
Christina Lewellen:
scenario based and very leadership based. So that's why
Christina Lewellen:
I wanted to hit on that briefly, because I think that if a person
Christina Lewellen:
is an aspiring CIO or technology director, studying for that exam
Christina Lewellen:
might be a little bit harder, because you really do need the
Christina Lewellen:
experience to be able to apply your expertise in certain
Christina Lewellen:
scenarios, but it also can prepare You to possibly step
Christina Lewellen:
into these really complicated leadership roles. So yeah, I
Christina Lewellen:
appreciate your reflection on that, and what I hear a lot from
Christina Lewellen:
our first generation tech leaders is, man, if that had
Christina Lewellen:
been around 20 years ago, that would have been really useful.
Christina Lewellen:
But really, technology does change a lot. So we can't just
Christina Lewellen:
teach technology. We have to teach the leadership skills
Christina Lewellen:
around how to make decisions about technology from that
Christina Lewellen:
strategic lens, which is really hard, but also really important.
Christina Lewellen:
Okay, so before we let you guys off the hook, this has been so
Christina Lewellen:
incredibly helpful, I want to thank you both for sharing your
Christina Lewellen:
perspective. I know that changing jobs is always a pretty
Christina Lewellen:
complicated decision, and starting a new job is quite a
Christina Lewellen:
lift. So I appreciate you guys bringing some of your
Christina Lewellen:
experiences to the podcast and sharing them with our audience.
Christina Lewellen:
I'm sure that you help many, many more people than you
Christina Lewellen:
realize, who might be kicking some of these thoughts around.
Christina Lewellen:
So thank you very much for that. Before we let you go, I would
Christina Lewellen:
love to just ask you briefly, what is the thing you're
Christina Lewellen:
thinking about today at school, as you're wrapping up this
Christina Lewellen:
school year, what are some of the big picture things that you
Christina Lewellen:
guys are wrestling at your schools? For me,
Matt Norko:
it's definitely AI. Is just something that we talked
Matt Norko:
about at our professional growth day. And I think the question
Matt Norko:
that we left on is with the use of AI, what could we get to that
Matt Norko:
we're not currently getting to? And I think that's a really
Matt Norko:
great thing for us to think about, especially when we're
Matt Norko:
talking about it in terms of teaching and learning. And are
Matt Norko:
you offloading skills that need to be taught versus not using
Matt Norko:
AI, but where could AI get us that we just can't get to right
Matt Norko:
now, I think there's a great conversation to have, and
Matt Norko:
certainly as a tech leader in an independent school, it's not
Matt Norko:
only very timely, but I think we have to have that conversation.
Matt Norko:
I
Louis Tullo:
definitely would echo what Matt is saying about
Louis Tullo:
a. AI, but probably on an even larger scope, I think this year,
Louis Tullo:
having gotten to teach an entrepreneurship class for the
Louis Tullo:
first time, and seeing all the ways that the value proposition
Louis Tullo:
of independent schools is changing in terms of the
Louis Tullo:
modality in which schooling is offered, I'm starting to think
Louis Tullo:
what ways can technology, including AI, help us to flip
Louis Tullo:
the system on its head and maybe offer school in a different way
Louis Tullo:
that shows that independent schools can offer something to
Louis Tullo:
students for teaching and learning that's dynamic and
Louis Tullo:
thriving and that will continue to be relevant in the next 10
Louis Tullo:
years. And I know that might sound obtuse, but I think it's
Louis Tullo:
because it's the confluence of all these things like blended
Louis Tullo:
learning, meets AI meets experiential Ed that's more
Louis Tullo:
career focused, as opposed to just getting kids ready for
Louis Tullo:
college. And so beginning to wrap my head around that is what
Louis Tullo:
I'm thinking about. I love
Christina Lewellen:
that you guys are the big brains. Thank
Christina Lewellen:
you so much for spending this time with us. It's been such a
Christina Lewellen:
pleasure. You really were the perfect folks to have this
Christina Lewellen:
conversation. So thank you so much for joining us, and I look
Christina Lewellen:
forward to seeing you soon in person.
Peter Frank:
This has been Talking Technology with ATLIS,
Peter Frank:
produced by the Association of Technology Leaders in
Peter Frank:
Independent Schools. For more information about Atlas and
Peter Frank:
Atlas membership, please visit the atlas.org if you enjoyed
Peter Frank:
this discussion, please subscribe, leave a review and
Peter Frank:
share this podcast with your colleagues in the independent
Peter Frank:
school community. Thank you for listening. You
