Strategies for Influence and Career Growth in Independent Schools
In this episode of the ATLIS podcast, we dive into the challenges and opportunities facing technology leaders in independent schools, with insights from a leader in educational technology recruitment. We explore the importance of advocating for the value of technology departments, strategies for career advancement, and the evolving expectations of technology leaders. Gain valuable perspectives on navigating leadership roles and fostering a deeper understanding of technology's critical role in schools.
Resources
- 12M & Ed Tech Recruiting, management consulting and strategic hiring for schools
- ATLIS Compensation Benchmark Report 2025
- ATLIS Interactive Compensation Benchmark Dashboard
Transcript
Peter Frank:
Phil, welcome to Talking Technology with ATLIS,
Peter Frank:
the show that plugs you into the important topics and trends for
Peter Frank:
technology leaders all through a unique Independent School lens.
Peter Frank:
We'll hear stories from technology directors and other
Peter Frank:
special guests from the Independent School community,
Peter Frank:
and provide you with focused learning and deep dive topics.
Peter Frank:
And now please welcome your host. Kristina Lewellen,
Christina Lewellen:
Hello everyone, and welcome back to
Christina Lewellen:
talking technology with Atlas. I'm Kristina Lewellen, the
Christina Lewellen:
President and CEO of the Association of Technology
Christina Lewellen:
Leaders in Independent
Bill Stites:
Schools. And I am Bill Stites, the Director of
Bill Stites:
Technology at Montclair Kimberly Academy in Montclair, New
Bill Stites:
Jersey.
Hiram Cuevas:
And I'm Hiram Cuevas, Director of Information
Hiram Cuevas:
Systems and Academic Technology at St Christopher school in
Hiram Cuevas:
Richmond, Virginia.
Christina Lewellen:
Hello, gentlemen, and welcome. Finally,
Christina Lewellen:
to the end of January, we're dating our recording, and I
Christina Lewellen:
don't care, because this has been a very long month indeed.
Christina Lewellen:
We're going to get to our guests super fast, but I want to start
Christina Lewellen:
today and ask you to please tell me something good, because this
Christina Lewellen:
month has been a long one. So please, Bill, tell me something
Christina Lewellen:
good.
Bill Stites:
I got something because you already dated us.
Bill Stites:
I'm gonna say it, and I'm gonna upset a lot of people, I'm sure.
Bill Stites:
Oh no,
Christina Lewellen:
if you talk about football, go birds.
Bill Stites:
Go birds, eagles, bleeding green till the day I
Bill Stites:
die. Let's go. Let's beat the chief baby.
Unknown:
Grease the poles in the city. Reach
Unknown:
them up. Since
Christina Lewellen:
we're recording this ahead of the
Christina Lewellen:
Super Bowl, I definitely root for pretty much anybody who's
Christina Lewellen:
got the ball. I think it's a very impressive sport. And so
Christina Lewellen:
whoever's offense, I'm all about that team, but I do like the
Christina Lewellen:
chiefs, as does my husband, even though his granddad played for
Christina Lewellen:
the Packers. See, that's not allowed. I know, I know I'm a
Christina Lewellen:
fair weather football and I grew up in Buffalo, so like, dude,
Christina Lewellen:
like, I'm all sorts of mixed up. No, you can't like the chiefs,
Christina Lewellen:
but I think that we need to make a bet right now on the pod,
Christina Lewellen:
because we're recording on january 30. Here we go. If the
Christina Lewellen:
Chiefs win, I expect you to step onto the main stage at the Atlas
Christina Lewellen:
conference in a chief shirt.
Bill Stites:
No, nope. Come on. Oh no, that never happened. God,
Bill Stites:
no, never. What's
Christina Lewellen:
the matter? Bill, you you don't believe in
Christina Lewellen:
the birds. You don't think they're gonna win. I
Bill Stites:
do, but my wife wants to buy balloons to
Bill Stites:
decorate the house for a party. I will not let her bring
Bill Stites:
balloons into the house. Of both themes. I'm like, you're not
Bill Stites:
allowed to do it. I'd have to turn in my Philly card, and
Bill Stites:
there's no way I'm doing that. Sorry, that's the bet that
Bill Stites:
somebody that actually doesn't watch or follow football. That's
Bill Stites:
the bet you kind of make. No no, Hiram, I
Christina Lewellen:
need a tie breaker here. I feel like Bill
Christina Lewellen:
won't take my bet because I would have stood up with a bird
Christina Lewellen:
shirt on if they won. Yeah, but
Bill Stites:
you don't care. You're from Buffalo and you're
Bill Stites:
rooting for the chiefs. I mean seriously, and you've got, like,
Bill Stites:
family blood, stop.
Hiram Cuevas:
I'm gonna kind of go with Bill on this one. You
Hiram Cuevas:
know, he's a die hard fan. Thank you, Hiram. And the only reason
Hiram Cuevas:
I say that is because my son is a die hard Chicago Bears fan.
Hiram Cuevas:
And I mean, talk about a walloping for years and years
Hiram Cuevas:
and years, and he is still wearing his bears regalia, and
Hiram Cuevas:
he will not switch, no matter what
Christina Lewellen:
not happening. All right. Well, for
Christina Lewellen:
the hardcore podcast listeners, whoever wins the Super Bowl,
Christina Lewellen:
I'll make sure that I at least wear a suit of that color on the
Christina Lewellen:
stage at the Atlas conference.
Bill Stites:
Me and Kylie Kelsea, we won't put it on. We
Bill Stites:
were talking about that before the pod. She won't do it. It's a
Bill Stites:
sport. Travis, I won't, Nope, not gonna
Christina Lewellen:
do it. All right, I respect your stance.
Christina Lewellen:
Well, with that, it is time for us to welcome our guests to the
Christina Lewellen:
show. Today, we have Gabe Lucas with us. Gabe is a long time
Christina Lewellen:
friend of the pod and also a founder of Atlas, but we invite
Christina Lewellen:
Gabe here today in his capacity leading 12 M and Ed Tech
Christina Lewellen:
recruiting, he heads up some of the coolest searches that are in
Christina Lewellen:
our space, and I thought it would be really awesome to bring
Christina Lewellen:
him here and talk about what's going on in the technology
Christina Lewellen:
leader hiring landscape Gabe, welcome to the pod. Thank you.
Christina Lewellen:
And before we get kicked off, do you have an opinion about this
Christina Lewellen:
football nonsense?
Gabriel Lucas:
Well, I'm out in California, so it's been
Gabriel Lucas:
actually a disappointing Super Bowl. I'm sorry, can't root for
Gabriel Lucas:
either team, basically rooting for a tie.
Unknown:
Ah, that's not how that goes.
Gabriel Lucas:
But I do think if you stand behind your team, you
Gabriel Lucas:
have to be willing to put out another team's jacket. So I'm
Gabriel Lucas:
gonna actually go on your side. Kristina, on the back. Yes,
Gabriel Lucas:
Gabe,
Christina Lewellen:
I love you. Thank you so much. I'm telling
Christina Lewellen:
you, I'm coming with a chief. I'm gonna bring Richards chief
Christina Lewellen:
gear with me to Atlas. All right, so Gabe, thank you for
Christina Lewellen:
joining us, and I'm really excited to kind of dive right in
Christina Lewellen:
with you. If we could, I think a lot of people know you. But for
Christina Lewellen:
newer listeners who are coming into our community, and there
Christina Lewellen:
are quite a few of them, could you please introduce your.
Christina Lewellen:
Yourself. Give us a little background on you and your firm.
Christina Lewellen:
Yeah,
Gabriel Lucas:
so, I mean, I've been a part of the educational
Gabriel Lucas:
community for about 20 plus years. I worked in higher ed. I
Gabriel Lucas:
did work in a couple of independent schools out in
Gabriel Lucas:
California. Ran technology departments back in 2014 Stuart
Gabriel Lucas:
Kelsea and I came together and founded Atlas. Was a great
Gabriel Lucas:
journey, still is, and out of that came just a realization, a
Gabriel Lucas:
passion and sort of an idea for helping schools hire for
Gabriel Lucas:
leadership roles in technology. So we started the firm, or I
Gabriel Lucas:
started the firm as Ed Tech recruiting, and that was our
Gabriel Lucas:
main focus, and really our only focus, and we still do that to
Gabriel Lucas:
this day, but we also expand it to all areas, the heads cabinet
Gabriel Lucas:
and now help schools hire leadership roles across the
Gabriel Lucas:
board. And I think our trajectory sort of mirrors where
Gabriel Lucas:
the industry has gone and that 1015, 20 years ago, you had to
Gabriel Lucas:
have the technology expert, and you still do, but it was sort of
Gabriel Lucas:
seemed like, well, everybody else can just be technology
Gabriel Lucas:
phobic or technology uneducated or disinterested, as long as we
Gabriel Lucas:
had a quote, tech person on our hiring leadership team, whatnot,
Gabriel Lucas:
we're okay. But, you know, now there's sort of a blended
Gabriel Lucas:
approach that's, I think, an exciting sort of where things
Gabriel Lucas:
are headed, and it's where we've headed so that now we're running
Gabriel Lucas:
a lot of searches that bring or fuse technology into other roles
Gabriel Lucas:
and vice versa, and that's been great to see as there's now a
Gabriel Lucas:
realization that high technology acumen is not just supposed to
Gabriel Lucas:
be in one person. It really is responsibility of the entire
Gabriel Lucas:
leadership team or the entire school to understand that these
Gabriel Lucas:
are important issues affecting everybody. I
Christina Lewellen:
love it. And Gabe, what is kind of the lay of
Christina Lewellen:
the land lately? Like, what are you seeing in the hiring market?
Christina Lewellen:
What are schools sort of looking for, and is it changing?
Gabriel Lucas:
It is. And of course, it's also case by case.
Gabriel Lucas:
And I'm always sort of reluctant to kind of say, well, there is a
Gabriel Lucas:
fad or a trend, or like everybody's doing this, but you
Gabriel Lucas:
know, I'd be derelict in duty if I didn't say things like, cyber
Gabriel Lucas:
security are much more important than they were five or six years
Gabriel Lucas:
ago. Data strategy is much more important than it was even two
Gabriel Lucas:
or three years ago, and the role of a technology leader is, for
Gabriel Lucas:
sure, multi faceted. 10 years ago, when I was starting to do
Gabriel Lucas:
this work and really explain to schools the complexity of
Gabriel Lucas:
technology hiring, I talked about three areas of technology
Gabriel Lucas:
instructional and IT and data systems in the middle, and that
Gabriel Lucas:
was sort of revolutionary, like it used to be just it and Ed
Gabriel Lucas:
Tech, right? And I think people got that, and that's how it is
Gabriel Lucas:
today, but it's gone just not exponential, but it's certainly
Gabriel Lucas:
gone far beyond those three prongs, and you have technology
Gabriel Lucas:
leaders taking on major aspects of business operations because
Gabriel Lucas:
they can think system minded. They can step into managing
Gabriel Lucas:
functional units campus operations. But then you also
Gabriel Lucas:
have technology leaders expand into roles like chief academic
Gabriel Lucas:
officer and hive assistant head of school for Teaching and
Gabriel Lucas:
Learning with a huge emphasis on technology. So that's been great
Gabriel Lucas:
to see. Then we step back from all that. My advice very quickly
Gabriel Lucas:
is that schools should define roles that are right for them.
Gabriel Lucas:
It's so easy to do the copycat mentality they're putting in
Gabriel Lucas:
smart boards. So should we? They're going one to one. So
Gabriel Lucas:
should we, we saw that cycle decades and decades ago. What
Gabriel Lucas:
I'm seeing now is there's a almost a comfort level of let's
Gabriel Lucas:
define it for ourselves. We worked at the school last year,
Gabriel Lucas:
they were all in to design and maker, and so for them, the
Gabriel Lucas:
technology position had to just be totally interconnected with
Gabriel Lucas:
that area of pedagogy and learning. But that's not right
Gabriel Lucas:
for everybody, and that's okay. So you go back 20 years ago, it
Gabriel Lucas:
was either it ed tech or maybe both, right? And there are sort
Gabriel Lucas:
of three flavors. And now it's like, okay, there's a different
Gabriel Lucas:
realization that there's so many aspects to what tech and school
Gabriel Lucas:
means, and if institutional research is top of the game for
Gabriel Lucas:
a school, they're going to define a role much differently
Gabriel Lucas:
for one that's going to think about design maker. I mean, it
Gabriel Lucas:
sounds so simple, but the realization of heads, that this
Gabriel Lucas:
is okay is, I think, finally there, and that's come about,
Gabriel Lucas:
going back to my point earlier, of realizing that everybody from
Gabriel Lucas:
the head and the board on down, has to have a level of
Gabriel Lucas:
understanding of technology so they can dip into this strategic
Gabriel Lucas:
planning and not just say, Well, I don't know about it, so I'll
Gabriel Lucas:
go hire somebody, and I won't think about it ever again.
Gabriel Lucas:
Anyway, that is definitely in the rear view mirror, and that's
Gabriel Lucas:
been great to see. So before we kind
Christina Lewellen:
of. Pivot over to the annual salary survey
Christina Lewellen:
and the resulting compensation report. Your firm and Atlas
Christina Lewellen:
partner up and do this report each year to benchmark industry
Christina Lewellen:
compensation and benefits. And so we're going to pivot to that,
Christina Lewellen:
and it's a big reason why we wanted you to come but I have
Christina Lewellen:
one more question, kind of high level for those who aren't
Christina Lewellen:
familiar with the model, who does the recruiter work for? Are
Christina Lewellen:
you working for the candidates? Are you working for the schools?
Christina Lewellen:
How does that work? I'll
Gabriel Lucas:
answer the question in two ways. One, what
Gabriel Lucas:
we do, but then I'll also say to those that are interested about
Gabriel Lucas:
understanding sort of more behind the scenes. You know,
Gabriel Lucas:
just different models, right? Who does the travel agent work
Gabriel Lucas:
for? They their customer is the person to walk and for that's
Gabriel Lucas:
sort of, again, a yes to your industry. But if you remember
Gabriel Lucas:
those days, you've worked with the travel agent to book your
Gabriel Lucas:
trip. So you the customer, were interfacing with them, but they
Gabriel Lucas:
were being honestly paid by the industry, right? They would get
Gabriel Lucas:
a some sort of partnership or payment through major travel
Gabriel Lucas:
companies. Just thinking about that is a good realization to
Gabriel Lucas:
recognize. It's not as simple as it might seem to the naked eye,
Gabriel Lucas:
very simple for us, though we are an executive recruiting
Gabriel Lucas:
firm, our official status, if you will, is that we're a non
Gabriel Lucas:
profit search consulting firm. We're hired by our clients, and
Gabriel Lucas:
which are not just schools. We're hired by colleges,
Gabriel Lucas:
associations, even some for profit companies. So we get
Gabriel Lucas:
hired by a client to run a search on their behalf. We don't
Gabriel Lucas:
represent candidates. We don't place people. We're neutral on
Gabriel Lucas:
decisions, and I'll even go further, we don't get paid $1
Gabriel Lucas:
more if someone has hired external, internal, someone we
Gabriel Lucas:
knew or didn't know. So in our little world, at least our
Gabriel Lucas:
company, to anybody who will listen, I say, Yeah, we are
Gabriel Lucas:
hired by our client. And if you go an agent or a consultant of a
Gabriel Lucas:
in this case, say, at school, but we're helping that client
Gabriel Lucas:
make decisions, and thus we interface and interact with
Gabriel Lucas:
individual applicants, but we don't represent them, and that's
Gabriel Lucas:
very important. You know, it cuts both ways in that we're
Gabriel Lucas:
neutral on the decision, but we also don't coach people, and we
Gabriel Lucas:
don't say, Okay, well, I'm rooting for you, or you're in my
Gabriel Lucas:
stable so I'm going to really try to get you placed over
Gabriel Lucas:
there, and thus let me fix your documents and tell you what to
Gabriel Lucas:
say. And we don't do that. Going back to the travel agent model,
Gabriel Lucas:
there are many different types of agents, and some that are
Gabriel Lucas:
actually, you know, hired by individuals. Now take the
Gabriel Lucas:
sporting world, right? The sporting agent is hired by the
Gabriel Lucas:
player, and they're there to advocate, you know, let's take
Gabriel Lucas:
our Super Bowl world, right? Like Travis Kelsea might be best
Gabriel Lucas:
friends with Tay Tay, but he's still got an agent, and that
Gabriel Lucas:
agent is going to act on his behalf and really push the
Gabriel Lucas:
employer, Kansas City Chiefs, to do certain things. And that
Gabriel Lucas:
person's getting paid by traps. There are plenty of placement
Gabriel Lucas:
firms out there, and actually, we all know some of the big ones
Gabriel Lucas:
that have this model of, well, we're not paid a dime unless you
Gabriel Lucas:
get hired. And they have a very different starting point
Gabriel Lucas:
approach, and in a positive way, they are often advocating for
Gabriel Lucas:
the individual. They're coaching, they're trying to give
Gabriel Lucas:
feedback and they're not an agent or representative of the
Gabriel Lucas:
employer. It gets a little murky when some companies, and I won't
Gabriel Lucas:
say names, try to do both. They are both placing people and also
Gabriel Lucas:
hired as agents or consultants to an employer. And that's where
Gabriel Lucas:
I think, if you're an applicant, you really have to understand
Gabriel Lucas:
the model you're possibly entering, or like the quote
Gabriel Lucas:
search firm that is running or supporting the search, and who's
Gabriel Lucas:
paying them, or who represents them or not. And do they do both
Gabriel Lucas:
sides sometimes? And in this case, what are they doing? It's
Gabriel Lucas:
very complex. So again, our little world, our company, is
Gabriel Lucas:
very simple. We act on behalf of schools, and we run searches,
Gabriel Lucas:
and we're completely neutral, and we love people to come in
Gabriel Lucas:
and apply, but it can feel a little icky sometimes, when
Gabriel Lucas:
somebody is thinking about it's going to be one model and it's
Gabriel Lucas:
actually another. And I'll just say, you know, that's just the
Gabriel Lucas:
way the industry is. But you have to do your homework and not
Gabriel Lucas:
just make assumptions all
Unknown:
the way throughout. That's really helpful. Thank you
Unknown:
for that. That has cleared up
Bill Stites:
a lot of ideas questions that I've had floating
Bill Stites:
around about this. You know, being someone who has directed
Bill Stites:
people to your site when I know that they've been looking and so
Bill Stites:
on and so forth. But when it comes to the salary survey,
Bill Stites:
we're all filling it out. I know how I use it. I'll fill it out,
Bill Stites:
I'll look at it, and then I'll benchmark myself and just see
Bill Stites:
where I am at this point. I've been in the game for quite a
Bill Stites:
while, so I know generally where I will fall so on and so forth.
Bill Stites:
Or if I'm talking. To somebody, whether it's through the ALI
Bill Stites:
program or somebody locally, you know, I'll have them reference
Bill Stites:
that. So if they're starting a search in general areas, what
Bill Stites:
they can do to get an idea of where things may stand from that
Bill Stites:
perspective, but turning this on you in a way of somebody who's
Bill Stites:
administering this and then working with Atlas to kind of
Bill Stites:
crunch all the numbers. How do you, as the person who has the
Bill Stites:
firm, I know how I use it. I know how Hiram probably uses it.
Bill Stites:
How do you use that data in the work that you're doing, whether
Bill Stites:
that's on the school's behalf? How are you putting that into
Bill Stites:
play? It's a
Gabriel Lucas:
great question, and that's just it, like, how
Gabriel Lucas:
each person uses it, I think, is a little bit different. And
Gabriel Lucas:
that's what's so great about the person who is trying to seek a
Gabriel Lucas:
job might have one objective function. The person who's in a
Gabriel Lucas:
job trying to benchmark or see if they're raises or
Gabriel Lucas:
commensurate, or if they're, shall I say, under market value,
Gabriel Lucas:
that's an important thing. How we use it is very simple and,
Gabriel Lucas:
quite frankly, very straightforward. The one and
Gabriel Lucas:
pretty much only time I need to think about salary is when a
Gabriel Lucas:
client has engaged us to say, hey, we're going to run a
Gabriel Lucas:
search, and we work with them to figure out director of ed tech
Gabriel Lucas:
or CIO or Information Systems Manager, whatever it might be.
Gabriel Lucas:
Well, the obvious question, what should the salary be? And that's
Gabriel Lucas:
a very simple question with a difficult either answer or just
Gabriel Lucas:
requires a lot of analysis and thought. So that's the way I use
Gabriel Lucas:
it is to help our clients figure out how to position or post a
Gabriel Lucas:
salary range that is reasonable. Now I should emphasize help our
Gabriel Lucas:
clients. It's not my decision what the salary is, and so I can
Gabriel Lucas:
only do so much to say to a client, well, this is what I
Gabriel Lucas:
think market rates are. This is where others who are. You know
Gabriel Lucas:
the person who has a portfolio of what you're looking for. You
Gabriel Lucas:
know the person who manages a team of eight, oversees all
Gabriel Lucas:
areas of technology, working in a 1200 person school, they're
Gabriel Lucas:
making x. Now you only seem to want to pay y, and y is less
Gabriel Lucas:
than x. So, you know, do we have a problem? Well, I mean, it's
Gabriel Lucas:
more like it's going to be a bit of a challenging search, because
Gabriel Lucas:
the people you're looking for are up in the X land. So I'm
Gabriel Lucas:
going to give you more than you bargain for again, we our
Gabriel Lucas:
contracts and our little firm, they're fixed costs. So I mean,
Gabriel Lucas:
we literally are just paid a fixed fee to help our clients
Gabriel Lucas:
run great searches. I have no skin in the game personally, to
Gabriel Lucas:
raise the salary so I'll make more money. Yes, certain firms
Gabriel Lucas:
do pay a percentage or get a percentage, and that's cool, but
Gabriel Lucas:
that's not our model. I don't want to look like I'm trying to
Gabriel Lucas:
jack the seller up so I get more money. So the advice I'm trying
Gabriel Lucas:
to give our clients is truly a market trip. Look, you're
Gabriel Lucas:
looking for the X people. You only want to pay y. We're going
Gabriel Lucas:
to have to figure out, like, well, maybe we got to pull a
Gabriel Lucas:
different lever. Are you willing to let the Y person work one day
Gabriel Lucas:
from home? Are you willing to maybe rethink the scope of the
Gabriel Lucas:
job in such a way that part of those duties will go elsewhere?
Gabriel Lucas:
Are you willing to get a little creative on relocation or
Gabriel Lucas:
vacation or something? So if not, that salary analysis tells
Gabriel Lucas:
me this is going to be a challenging search, and tells
Gabriel Lucas:
the client, I don't know if you're going to identify the
Gabriel Lucas:
right people that you're looking for. So it's very important,
Gabriel Lucas:
very helpful to us in that very specific case. But I would just
Gabriel Lucas:
say to others, there's a lot of reasons to use it, and I hope
Gabriel Lucas:
you explore it and leverage it, because I think it helps make
Gabriel Lucas:
better decision making across the board. That's
Christina Lewellen:
so interesting, Gabe, and that
Christina Lewellen:
actually leads me into some of what we saw in this year's data.
Christina Lewellen:
We'll get into some of the specifics on the salary side,
Christina Lewellen:
but first, I just want to ask for your feedback on this. In
Christina Lewellen:
our executive findings, our executive summary findings, we
Christina Lewellen:
have started asking about overall job satisfaction. And
Christina Lewellen:
the data which was collected in late 2024 compared to the same
Christina Lewellen:
data in 2023 there's some concerning dips in overall
Christina Lewellen:
satisfaction. So in last year's data, we asked technology
Christina Lewellen:
leaders to kind of rate overall their job satisfaction, and it
Christina Lewellen:
was at 92% okay, that's pretty healthy, right? It dipped down
Christina Lewellen:
to 83% this year, not a surprise. And then we asked
Christina Lewellen:
about the respondent satisfaction with their work
Christina Lewellen:
environment. Like, specifically, like, how's your work
Christina Lewellen:
environment? That dropped from 89% to 79% so across every
Christina Lewellen:
measure, even at the very bottom end of the spectrum, Gabe, like
Christina Lewellen:
the career advancement opportunities, we asked about
Christina Lewellen:
that last year compared to this year last year, asking about
Christina Lewellen:
career advancement opportunities, they reported a
Christina Lewellen:
62% satisfaction rate. This year it dipped all the way down to
Christina Lewellen:
41% and finally, I just want you to reflect on with flexibility,
Christina Lewellen:
asking about that aspect of satisfaction, last year's data
Christina Lewellen:
gave us a 53% so. Satisfaction rate this year, we're down to
Christina Lewellen:
30% when it comes to flexibility. Your thoughts on
Christina Lewellen:
that? Well,
Gabriel Lucas:
I guess I'll give thoughts that have a silver
Gabriel Lucas:
lining, mindset that maybe actually brings a sort of a
Gabriel Lucas:
negative or a bummer, which is that across the board, these are
Gabriel Lucas:
the trends. In other words, if you had asked me to do a similar
Gabriel Lucas:
survey around like division heads, because we do a lot of
Gabriel Lucas:
academic searches, it's probably about the same. These are roles
Gabriel Lucas:
that are just getting more frustrating, harder to run. The
Gabriel Lucas:
To Do list is going up and up and up. The expectations that
Gabriel Lucas:
you know someone be the magician or the ace of all trades. Forget
Gabriel Lucas:
even Jack, right? It's really trending, I think, a little bit
Gabriel Lucas:
in the wrong direction. Now, I don't want to be a complete
Gabriel Lucas:
Negative Nelly, and I think there are silver linings on the
Gabriel Lucas:
positive side, but just to step back, I think it's helpful to
Gabriel Lucas:
know that there's just a difficulty in school leadership
Gabriel Lucas:
positions across the board. We're working with NAIS and I
Gabriel Lucas:
case and other organizations on just like leadership pipelines.
Gabriel Lucas:
I just gave a session last week, and people are just staying on
Gabriel Lucas:
the sidelines. They're stepping out. It's challenging. So the
Gabriel Lucas:
point there, number one, is just, I think there's comfort in
Gabriel Lucas:
a shared recognition that running schools is hard. I think
Gabriel Lucas:
the technology position, as we talked earlier, because it's no
Gabriel Lucas:
longer society or ed tech, and it has so many aspects to it,
Gabriel Lucas:
from AI and cyber, just take those two things right? There
Gabriel Lucas:
are these frontiers of desired exploration at the board level,
Gabriel Lucas:
all the way down to the teacher level. I mean, 25 years ago, how
Gabriel Lucas:
many people in schools were just talking about, like, Apple 2e
Gabriel Lucas:
even knew what that was, other than the six people were in some
Gabriel Lucas:
locked room. So now you have everybody talking about these
Gabriel Lucas:
trends and looking for the expert to get a sense of, like,
Gabriel Lucas:
you know, where are we headed and where should we be? And that
Gabriel Lucas:
just, I think, puts a lot of strain. So we have to go educate
Gabriel Lucas:
the larger industry to realize, like, the technology position
Gabriel Lucas:
has so many components to it. And let's go back to
Gabriel Lucas:
compensation. If you want somebody really good, you need
Gabriel Lucas:
to recognize that this is as critical as your CFO. You know,
Gabriel Lucas:
my little soap box is that it's a little disappointing that I
Gabriel Lucas:
think schools are still trying to say, well, we have the head
Gabriel Lucas:
and the CFO and the advancement person and admission, so they're
Gabriel Lucas:
bringing the dollars, but the tech person is like, one notch
Gabriel Lucas:
down. We got to realize this person is as important, if not
Gabriel Lucas:
more, than some of those other roles. So I don't want to get
Gabriel Lucas:
into what is more important, not but the recognition of value.
Gabriel Lucas:
The irony is, there are a lot of people who want these jobs.
Gabriel Lucas:
These are exciting roles, but then you know things like, is
Gabriel Lucas:
the salary really commensurate or not, are the expectations
Gabriel Lucas:
commensurate? And then the burnout? There's a lot of
Gabriel Lucas:
burnout. And we run searches where there can be these
Gabriel Lucas:
exciting, 345, year turnarounds, and that's okay, what both sides
Gabriel Lucas:
recognize. Hey, if you're willing to say, come in and work
Gabriel Lucas:
hard, this can Springboard or something great, and a lot of
Gabriel Lucas:
schools don't feel they need a 20 year person to stay. So if
Gabriel Lucas:
you're burning out, it's almost like, to me, time to think about
Gabriel Lucas:
another role. But I just want our industry to recognize the
Gabriel Lucas:
value of these positions a bit more than it does, and I hope
Gabriel Lucas:
this salary survey moves the needle there. But I think we
Gabriel Lucas:
have to do a better job educating non technology school
Gabriel Lucas:
leaders that you're asking for a lot you need to recognize the
Gabriel Lucas:
value of who you're bringing in. Gabe,
Hiram Cuevas:
I'm really pleased to hear that you mentioned that
Hiram Cuevas:
tech leaders should be in the same ballpark as some of these
Hiram Cuevas:
other leadership positions. I mean, I think about some of the
Hiram Cuevas:
compliance issues alone that provide such tremendous risk to
Hiram Cuevas:
our institutions, by itself, the number of times you have to deal
Hiram Cuevas:
with attorneys and dealing with contracts, etc, that impact the
Hiram Cuevas:
entire school, not just say, a division or a department, is
Hiram Cuevas:
quite vast. My question for you is within the salary survey, you
Hiram Cuevas:
mentioned that there's an undervaluing perhaps at some
Hiram Cuevas:
schools about their tech leaders in terms of the salaries. What
Hiram Cuevas:
is your perception about the overall landscape of tech
Hiram Cuevas:
leaders within the survey in terms of where they're
Hiram Cuevas:
positioned with respect to other senior leadership positions at
Hiram Cuevas:
their schools?
Unknown:
Yeah, it's a great question.
Gabriel Lucas:
I think a lot of that comes to the function of
Gabriel Lucas:
the head. I mean, what I've seen just in my 10 years of work is
Gabriel Lucas:
that if the Head of School sees the high value of this position,
Gabriel Lucas:
they are going to bring that position into the even the upper
Gabriel Lucas:
eche. Law The Executive Cabinet, they're gonna run a search, and
Gabriel Lucas:
I'm not trying to put any clients under the bus, but I
Gabriel Lucas:
mean some heads lean into working with us even more
Gabriel Lucas:
because they're like, I know, like, this is gonna make or
Gabriel Lucas:
break my school in the next five or six years. And what I also
Gabriel Lucas:
like is when they sort of don't know this, what they're telling
Gabriel Lucas:
themselves is okay, but I gotta lean into this area. I'm not
Gabriel Lucas:
gonna just, like, push a button and like, Wait for five people
Gabriel Lucas:
to show up and I'll pick one of them. And like, no, like, this
Gabriel Lucas:
is hard work to get the community to recognize how
Gabriel Lucas:
critical this role is. So the status of the position is number
Gabriel Lucas:
one, a function of where the head sees it. You just have to
Gabriel Lucas:
call a spade a spade there. I think other things can play a
Gabriel Lucas:
role, but I think the technology professional is probably the
Gabriel Lucas:
number two like, in other words, they themselves can self
Gabriel Lucas:
advocate, but in that proper way. And I mean, look, I've been
Gabriel Lucas:
in this industry. I've been a tech director. We love to flock
Gabriel Lucas:
together. So like Atlas, to me, was like finding our peace. It
Gabriel Lucas:
brought a group together that was connected virtually in some
Gabriel Lucas:
ways. But like now, we have a professional association. We
Gabriel Lucas:
have to go out in the world and evangelize, if you will. In
Gabriel Lucas:
other words, the interconnectedness that we have
Gabriel Lucas:
to do is to be more present, for example, at conferences that are
Gabriel Lucas:
non technology. I'm not saying don't go to Atlas. And then when
Gabriel Lucas:
you get those people coming to Atlas, I don't want non
Gabriel Lucas:
technology senior leaders to sort of see this as like, well,
Gabriel Lucas:
I don't need to know this. And I got somebody here who's doing
Gabriel Lucas:
it, and they had the little pond, and I have my pond, and
Gabriel Lucas:
we'll just do our thing, like, that's not going to lead to a
Gabriel Lucas:
recognition that the issues that we're talking about are relevant
Gabriel Lucas:
for everybody. So like, when I see Atlas putting on a think
Gabriel Lucas:
about cyber or I saw an email and it was this morning, right?
Gabriel Lucas:
Like, you know who owns your data, they happen to come in my
Gabriel Lucas:
inbox today, I would argue more non tech people should be in
Gabriel Lucas:
that session or listening than tech people. In other words, an
Gabriel Lucas:
interesting little analysis would be if 95% of people who
Gabriel Lucas:
show up are tech professionals, that's actually bad, or that's
Gabriel Lucas:
good in some way, but it's leaving a whole slice of the pie
Gabriel Lucas:
out, and whose responsibility is that, I think that has to be
Gabriel Lucas:
with the tech director, the CIO, to bring along people to not
Gabriel Lucas:
accept things like, Oh, well, you go do that, and I'll go do
Gabriel Lucas:
this. No, no, you're all doing data. You're all using it. You
Gabriel Lucas:
need to hear this. I remember when I was in the school, like,
Gabriel Lucas:
I just sort of got almost not jealous, but I was, like, I got
Gabriel Lucas:
percolatingly Excited by like, what my CFO is doing. Oh, my
Gabriel Lucas:
God, she's talking to a lawyer. I want to talk to a lawyer. How
Gabriel Lucas:
cool, right? Like, I'm not a CFO, but I want to hear what
Gabriel Lucas:
they're talking about. We have to do that too. That's the next
Gabriel Lucas:
level. And like I said, yes, the head plays a role in the stature
Gabriel Lucas:
the tech person, but the tech professional themselves has to
Gabriel Lucas:
do some creative things to not just say, I got my peeps and now
Gabriel Lucas:
I'm good. No, it's like, I've got a starting point. But you
Gabriel Lucas:
need to come hear this. You need to come hang with us. 20 of us
Gabriel Lucas:
need to do that, so I don't just bring my one head of school and
Gabriel Lucas:
that person feels like a fish out of water. Easier said than
Gabriel Lucas:
done, but I think it just conceptually recognizes a
Gabriel Lucas:
blending of these issues among multiple conditional groups. And
Gabriel Lucas:
then I think the stature, the tech position, the CIO, the tech
Gabriel Lucas:
director, goes much higher.
Hiram Cuevas:
So Gabe, I imagine you're encountering schools all
Hiram Cuevas:
over that continuum, oh yeah, yeah,
Gabriel Lucas:
which is exciting and challenging, or just it
Gabriel Lucas:
creates for like, a steady stream of work. And it's not
Gabriel Lucas:
cookie cutter, because it's a function of the head, the board,
Gabriel Lucas:
the school, the faculty, where that tech professional is the
Gabriel Lucas:
success of the department. And there's a lot of things that I
Gabriel Lucas:
think play into this. And look, I get the fact that schools
Gabriel Lucas:
today, a lot of them are focused on survival, market, funding,
Gabriel Lucas:
finance, like the dollars at stake are high, yes, yes and
Gabriel Lucas:
yes. But a tech director, cio anything, even a systems manager
Gabriel Lucas:
could just flip a switch, set a policy, if you will, and have a
Gabriel Lucas:
tremendous impact on either user satisfaction or use your
Gabriel Lucas:
frustration. And I don't mean open a firewall or doc, but
Gabriel Lucas:
whatever it is right we can or can't install applications on
Gabriel Lucas:
our computers, or what device is bought, or are we going to allow
Gabriel Lucas:
this system or not? Or there's so many things. So this role is
Gabriel Lucas:
so important, and yes, there is a tremendous continuum, but the
Gabriel Lucas:
tech professional has so much influence. On the success of a
Gabriel Lucas:
school they set an established culture. They can essentially
Gabriel Lucas:
move that continuum with almost like a push of a button, or
Gabriel Lucas:
we're going to buy this, or we're not going to, or we're
Gabriel Lucas:
going to allow that, or not. That's a lot of power, and I
Gabriel Lucas:
hope that they are using that ability influence to explain to
Gabriel Lucas:
their peers how important technology is, but then we have
Gabriel Lucas:
to get those people to recognize these decisions are not just
Gabriel Lucas:
meant to be made by one person. And it's that intermingling that
Gabriel Lucas:
I think will help move a school forward, but also help the
Gabriel Lucas:
technology professional advance their either career goals or the
Gabriel Lucas:
stature of their position.
Christina Lewellen:
So looking back at the data, Gabe, we've
Christina Lewellen:
had several years where we saw pretty significant increases in
Christina Lewellen:
salary. So from 2019 to 2024 as long as we've been creating this
Christina Lewellen:
report, the overall increase has been more than 15% Wow. But this
Christina Lewellen:
year we leveled off. This year we saw a slight decrease. I
Christina Lewellen:
mean, I don't want to call it a trend. One year is not a trend,
Christina Lewellen:
right? But we saw a less than 1% decrease in average salary from
Christina Lewellen:
around $108,000 a year to $107,000 a year. And again, over
Christina Lewellen:
the last several years, it's been going up pretty
Christina Lewellen:
significantly, but it's something maybe worth watching.
Christina Lewellen:
I'm hopeful that maybe some of that is reflective of more
Christina Lewellen:
individuals using this kind of data. Do some of the candidates
Christina Lewellen:
and some of the schools actually know about the compensation
Christina Lewellen:
report, and do they also leverage this data ahead of you
Christina Lewellen:
bringing it to the table? Well,
Gabriel Lucas:
they do. We're working with schools when
Gabriel Lucas:
they're hiring. We're focused on the hiring moment when it's time
Gabriel Lucas:
to set a salary for essentially, a transition. We don't do a lot
Gabriel Lucas:
of work with schools on, like, resetting internal salaries
Gabriel Lucas:
based on who's there. We help do some like, analysis of
Gabriel Lucas:
positions, but we usually don't get into like, is this person
Gabriel Lucas:
overpaid? Underpaid or not. Usually they're on your page.
Gabriel Lucas:
Quite frankly, I'm going to again give you that statement I
Gabriel Lucas:
made about 15 minutes ago, which you may not want to hear, but I
Gabriel Lucas:
definitely see it across the board, which is, I mean, I can
Gabriel Lucas:
think of literal carbon copy searches, and we don't carbon
Gabriel Lucas:
copy a position statement. But like today's 2025, search with
Gabriel Lucas:
client X. It's a mirror image of a search we ran three, four
Gabriel Lucas:
years ago, and I used the four year ago search as an example to
Gabriel Lucas:
the client to go, this is your search? And they're like, yeah,
Gabriel Lucas:
that totally is. And then it's shocking, like, I don't think
Gabriel Lucas:
they're literally copying that salary that was posted, but it's
Gabriel Lucas:
amazing that the salaries have not increased in the market
Gabriel Lucas:
search world that we used to see. I mean, I was seeing jumps
Gabriel Lucas:
678, years ago, which were great. Now there's sort of a
Gabriel Lucas:
leveling off, and we're also seeing that with division head
Gabriel Lucas:
searches. Those are really tough. I'll tell you right now,
Gabriel Lucas:
they're not going up at the level that I think they should
Gabriel Lucas:
be. So I wish I had greater analysis, but I'm just not
Gabriel Lucas:
seeing the salary increases across the board. But with the
Gabriel Lucas:
technology position, it's tougher also, because, yeah, it
Gabriel Lucas:
may be a carbon copy, but the points we discussed earlier, the
Gabriel Lucas:
level of risk that this person is managing is way higher, and,
Gabriel Lucas:
quite frankly, the ready to pounce is really higher the
Gabriel Lucas:
moment like something goes wrong. So that's a problem.
Gabriel Lucas:
We're seeing that here's what we do. We also push our clients to
Gabriel Lucas:
look at public salary postings in industry or other nonprofits,
Gabriel Lucas:
just to see, like, Okay, you're about to enter the public
Gabriel Lucas:
market. How are others posting this position? You cannot just
Gabriel Lucas:
do what you did three or four years ago, or what your peers
Gabriel Lucas:
will do three or four years ago, like, use the salary analysis
Gabriel Lucas:
that we're doing with Atlas. Use external just analysis in
Gabriel Lucas:
general, look at your internal salaries and then realize that
Gabriel Lucas:
this role has changed dramatically. Unfortunately, I'm
Gabriel Lucas:
often that don't shoot the messenger when I'm talking to a
Gabriel Lucas:
candidate that's like, Well, yeah, it is what it is, but I
Gabriel Lucas:
totally get it.
Christina Lewellen:
You know, the one thing that is holding
Christina Lewellen:
true year after year with this data is that the biggest impact
Christina Lewellen:
you can have to drive your average salary up is to be on
Christina Lewellen:
the senior leadership team. Yeah, of a school, that gap is
Christina Lewellen:
massive. So if you serve on the senior leadership team at your
Christina Lewellen:
school, so often, that means reporting to the head, but if
Christina Lewellen:
you are considered a senior administrator, your average
Christina Lewellen:
salary in 2024 was more than $126,000 and that's compared to,
Christina Lewellen:
if you are not a senior administrator, the average
Christina Lewellen:
salary is $96,000 annually. So I think that what's interesting to
Christina Lewellen:
me, at least in year after year after year, there's all sorts of
Christina Lewellen:
drivers, right? You can look at this data from what kind of
Christina Lewellen:
school it is, how big it is. What the enrollment is, what the
Christina Lewellen:
average tuition is, what kind of population you serve. There's
Christina Lewellen:
tons of ways to slice the data, but the one that seems to be the
Christina Lewellen:
most impactful to me is, do you report to the head IE, or do you
Christina Lewellen:
serve on a senior leadership team at your school? If so,
Christina Lewellen:
you're probably likely to make more money.
Gabriel Lucas:
And look, there are two sides to that coin.
Gabriel Lucas:
You're going to make more money and you're going to have more
Gabriel Lucas:
responsibility. Again, we're neutral. Once again, we're
Gabriel Lucas:
neutral here, because for some schools and candidates not
Gabriel Lucas:
having the tech the on the seat Adam team is the right thing.
Gabriel Lucas:
The school might say, Hey, that's not quite what we need
Gabriel Lucas:
for whatever reason. But there are plenty of candidates who go,
Gabriel Lucas:
I don't want to be exposed to all of this, I want somebody to
Gabriel Lucas:
oversee, and that's great, but I think those that are seeking
Gabriel Lucas:
growth and looking for that next level, I want to expand their
Gabriel Lucas:
career, and possibly want to go into headship or other lanes of
Gabriel Lucas:
oversight that you have to find ways to get on That senior admin
Gabriel Lucas:
team, because that is a doorway to so much higher levels of
Gabriel Lucas:
strategy, strategy planning being neutral. If the technology
Gabriel Lucas:
person is not on the senior admin team, I will knock on the
Gabriel Lucas:
door of a senior admin team to say, well, then who is highly
Gabriel Lucas:
technology fluent? An idea is not just one person, but where
Gabriel Lucas:
is that strategy coming from? And if you don't have anybody in
Gabriel Lucas:
here who is really equipped to think about these issues, and
Gabriel Lucas:
you've put this technology position kind of shoved into a
Gabriel Lucas:
box, you're asking for a lot of trouble, or at least no that's a
Gabriel Lucas:
different level of risk that you may not be aware of, but that
Gabriel Lucas:
needs to be brought out front and center. The growth thing is
Gabriel Lucas:
really important, and it's tough, because if you're not on
Gabriel Lucas:
the senior admin team and your head is not really recognizing
Gabriel Lucas:
this is an important either area or it's not their comfort zone,
Gabriel Lucas:
you'll burn a lot of political capital while trying to make
Gabriel Lucas:
that happen. And sometimes you just have to look elsewhere and
Gabriel Lucas:
recognize that there's an opportunity down the street,
Gabriel Lucas:
down the next state, you can switch from Eagles fan to Kansas
Gabriel Lucas:
City Chiefs fan, and move to a city where there is going to be
Gabriel Lucas:
recognition of your position. And there you go. If you're
Gabriel Lucas:
willing to switch jerseys, sometimes that's what you got
Bill Stites:
to do. Gabe, we're not switching jerseys. Okay? We
Bill Stites:
just need to leave this one alone.
Gabriel Lucas:
I know you're not gonna do that.
Bill Stites:
So I do have a question for you, because you're
Bill Stites:
touching on a lot of things in terms of where you need to sit
Bill Stites:
on the senior leadership team, in terms of how that pulls out
Bill Stites:
the value that we as technologists bring into the
Bill Stites:
schools. And you know, I've been involved with Atlas for a while,
Bill Stites:
to many different levels. You know, I participated early on in
Bill Stites:
the E cat program, moving on to the ALI program, working on the
Bill Stites:
T list program, really to develop those areas where we can
Bill Stites:
help build skills and build fluency, build some recognition
Bill Stites:
around the fact that, okay, this is what you're doing. So what
Bill Stites:
I'm going to do is, I'm going to ask you to kind of put on the
Bill Stites:
candidate hat for one piece of this and then put on the school
Bill Stites:
hat on another one. In terms of, what would you say to the
Bill Stites:
candidate? In terms of, what are the things that you need to
Bill Stites:
focus on to elevate yourself to that level, like participate in
Bill Stites:
AI, look at the T list, stuff do X or Y, things. You know, what
Bill Stites:
are those things that you would say to the candidate? And then,
Bill Stites:
what are the things that you're saying to the school that listen
Bill Stites:
you're saying you want all these things. This is what you need to
Bill Stites:
look for, or these are the questions that you need to be
Bill Stites:
thinking about and asking of those candidates. So taking that
Bill Stites:
from both those perspectives,
Gabriel Lucas:
yeah, great question for candidates, having
Gabriel Lucas:
supervisory experience is really important. And if not going to
Gabriel Lucas:
some certification program that is going to teach you managerial
Gabriel Lucas:
skills, one of the number one things is, can you manage? Can
Gabriel Lucas:
you lead people? And I think the beauty of either an Ali or a T
Gabriel Lucas:
list or any program is that it's going to hopefully develop
Gabriel Lucas:
leadership management skills in this domain. And let's get
Gabriel Lucas:
really specific. How would an ed tech person oversee an IT ops
Gabriel Lucas:
manager or a network administrator? Because that
Gabriel Lucas:
happens. Or how might a CIO who came up through the ranks of it
Gabriel Lucas:
lead an ed tech unit? So that's a fluency that is just
Gabriel Lucas:
essential, and especially true if you, let's say you're the CIO
Gabriel Lucas:
and you never wait, taught in the classroom, but you need to
Gabriel Lucas:
lead ed tech vision, or if you're the Ed Tech professional
Gabriel Lucas:
who's never really been that hands on with it, but you need
Gabriel Lucas:
to lead an IT unit, or some sort of it functional team. So that's
Gabriel Lucas:
probably number one. Number two would be ability to lead change
Gabriel Lucas:
management initiatives. Always tell the story, right? This one
Gabriel Lucas:
guy in a search, you know, we asked him a question like, how
Gabriel Lucas:
would you lead a phone system migration? And it sounded like
Gabriel Lucas:
he was basically saying, I go down to Best Buy, buy a bunch of
Gabriel Lucas:
units, and within 30 days, they'd all be installed. So. Oh,
Gabriel Lucas:
my God, you don't even understand change management,
Gabriel Lucas:
technology, downtime, Christmas break, testing, sandbox
Gabriel Lucas:
environment, so just the lack of awareness of what it means to
Gabriel Lucas:
manage technology change, and thus, on the positive side,
Gabriel Lucas:
again, any certification program or learning experience, teaching
Gabriel Lucas:
somebody the fundamentals about how to manage technology
Gabriel Lucas:
transition, I think then there's probably three. Would be just
Gabriel Lucas:
fluency beyond talking points, but a reasonable level of
Gabriel Lucas:
understanding of across the board issues, whether it is
Gabriel Lucas:
cyber security, data privacy, institutional research, and then
Gabriel Lucas:
let's go on the ed side, just general practices on, like
Gabriel Lucas:
instructional design, how to work with faculty. You know,
Gabriel Lucas:
faculty can sniff out somebody who's going to come across as a
Gabriel Lucas:
Genius Bar. Actually, that's like the number one metaphor, or
Gabriel Lucas:
sort of descriptive, like, we don't want that genius bar
Gabriel Lucas:
person. And they'll say, you know, with that hat or whatever,
Gabriel Lucas:
like, We want somebody who can just, you know, how do they
Gabriel Lucas:
talk? Teach it. And that, I think, is important. But then
Gabriel Lucas:
take that to mean also, like, for the other side, how do you
Gabriel Lucas:
talk administrator, like somebody who's able to talk to a
Gabriel Lucas:
CFO or an admissions professional, and like not come
Gabriel Lucas:
across as IT support plus. But how do you present yourself as a
Gabriel Lucas:
true senior administrator? I always say like Your resume
Gabriel Lucas:
should look like you have the job that you're trying to get,
Gabriel Lucas:
not that you have. And when you're talking to senior
Gabriel Lucas:
administrators, you should sound and look. This isn't like sort
Gabriel Lucas:
of a visual, but like, you should present yourself and your
Gabriel Lucas:
ideas and your framework in such a way that basically you are
Gabriel Lucas:
talking as if you are the CIO, if that's trying to get from the
Gabriel Lucas:
school side, schools, I think, need to really be willing to not
Gabriel Lucas:
pitch and hold these positions into one lane or another, and be
Gabriel Lucas:
much more open to a variety of experiences. And they're too
Gabriel Lucas:
quick to say, well, they haven't taught high school or, you know,
Gabriel Lucas:
they don't see a certification of, like, they don't know how to
Gabriel Lucas:
use, you know, network equipment, like, there's too
Gabriel Lucas:
many check boxes that they are looking for on resumes. And
Gabriel Lucas:
we're trying to say there is so much more to this person's job
Gabriel Lucas:
or role that you don't understand, and you need to be
Gabriel Lucas:
much more open to, like, a variety of experiences and
Gabriel Lucas:
backgrounds. We're getting there, but it's taking a long
Gabriel Lucas:
time, and I think people are just looking for like, the
Gabriel Lucas:
unicorn that doesn't exist. And we have to convince them like
Gabriel Lucas:
you need to give people a chance to present themselves in their
Gabriel Lucas:
full light and not just sort of go off of a resume.
Christina Lewellen:
I love that. Yeah, we know a couple unicorns.
Christina Lewellen:
I host the podcast with a couple of them. There you go. Gabe,
Christina Lewellen:
this was so helpful. And I always love taking a moment to
Christina Lewellen:
kind of talk through the annual compensation benchmark report
Christina Lewellen:
findings with you. I appreciate your partnership on gathering
Christina Lewellen:
that data, and I just feel like the nuggets that come out of it
Christina Lewellen:
are so useful to our community. They help folks advocate for
Christina Lewellen:
themselves, and certainly inform schools to approach some of
Christina Lewellen:
these big picture questions with a lot more information. So I
Christina Lewellen:
thank you for that, and I thank you for joining us. For those of
Christina Lewellen:
you who are interested in getting your hands on the
Christina Lewellen:
compensation benchmark report that's available in the show
Christina Lewellen:
notes, and I hope that you use it at Atlas. We always love to
Christina Lewellen:
hear about how you're using it. A lot of times at our
Christina Lewellen:
conference, folks will come up to me or my team and say, you
Christina Lewellen:
know, use the benchmark report and I got a raise, or I
Christina Lewellen:
advocated for another staffer, and so those types of movements
Christina Lewellen:
of the needle just really bring me a lot of satisfaction. I love
Christina Lewellen:
hearing those stories, so continue to let us know how
Christina Lewellen:
you're doing with that. But Gabe, thank you so much for
Christina Lewellen:
being with us today. It's really useful
Gabriel Lucas:
My pleasure. Thank you all very much. And go
Gabriel Lucas:
birds chiefs or whoever you rooting for, and you
Bill Stites:
could have stopped with the first one, Gabe, you
Bill Stites:
were you were all good. I
Gabriel Lucas:
know I had to cover all bases. I'm sorry.
Christina Lewellen:
It's a good thing that he doesn't have
Christina Lewellen:
editing rights to this podcast.
Gabriel Lucas:
We represent nobody, so you know, that's
Gabriel Lucas:
right.
Christina Lewellen:
He's a neutral party. Thank you, Gabe.
Christina Lewellen:
We will see you at the annual conference. See you that
Peter Frank:
this has been talking technology with Atlas,
Peter Frank:
produced by the Association of Technology Leaders in
Peter Frank:
Independent Schools. For more information about Atlas and
Peter Frank:
Atlas membership, please visit the atlas.org if you enjoyed
Peter Frank:
this discussion, please subscribe, leave a review and
Peter Frank:
share this podcast with your colleagues in the independent
Peter Frank:
school community. Thank you for listening. You.
