Data Harmony: Integrating Systems, Empowering Schools
This episode delves into the intricacies of data management within independent schools (with a focus on OneRoster) and explores solutions to support tech leaders. The speakers emphasize the critical role of data integration in achieving efficiency and improved outcomes. They also highlight the benefits of OneRoster in streamlining data sharing across various systems. Additionally, the conversation underscores the importance of prioritizing data security and privacy to safeguard sensitive student information.
- OneRoster - a standard for securely and reliably exchanging roster information, course materials, and grades between systems, developed and maintained by 1EdTech
- Learning Tools Interoperability (LTI) - another standard developed by 1EdTech, used to connect learning tools with an institution's learning environment without logging into each tool
- 1EdTech - nonprofit committed to building an open, trusted, and innovative digital learning ecosystem
- Blackbaud
- K-12 Schools Software
- Calvert Hall College High School Realizes Efficiencies with OneRoster and LTI Integrations - Customer Story
- Veracross
- Veracross 360 - school management platform
- API Plus for Academics - enables integration between the Veracross platform and a broad range of educational software providers using the industry data standard known as "OneRoster"
- Taping a cat to a wall
Transcript
Peter Frank:
Phil, welcome to Talking Technology with ATLIS,
Peter Frank:
the show that plugs you into the important topics and trends for
Peter Frank:
technology leaders all through a unique Independent School lens.
Peter Frank:
We'll hear stories from technology directors and other
Peter Frank:
special guests from the Independent School community,
Peter Frank:
and provide you with focused learning and deep dive topics.
Peter Frank:
And now please welcome your host. Kristina Lewellen,
Christina Lewellen:
Hello everyone, and welcome back to
Christina Lewellen:
talking technology with Atlas. I'm Kristina Lewellen, the
Christina Lewellen:
executive director of the Association of Technology
Christina Lewellen:
Leaders in Independent Schools.
Bill Stites:
And I am Bill Stites, the Director of
Bill Stites:
Technology at Montclair Kimberly Academy in Montclair, New
Bill Stites:
Jersey. And
Hiram Cuevas:
I'm Hiram Cuevas, Director of Information Systems
Hiram Cuevas:
and Academic Technology at St Christopher school in Richmond,
Hiram Cuevas:
Virginia.
Christina Lewellen:
Hello, gentlemen. How are you today?
Christina Lewellen:
Little chilly this morning. It
Bill Stites:
is. I walked outside and I thought the same.
Bill Stites:
I was like, wow, it's getting cold.
Christina Lewellen:
I have a chihuahua mix that we adopted a
Christina Lewellen:
while back, and that dog does not vibe with the cold weather.
Christina Lewellen:
So I was dropping into the Atlas team slack. We have a channel
Christina Lewellen:
set up for kids and pets. And today the Chihuahua took center
Christina Lewellen:
stage because she was bundled in the blankets. She was not having
Christina Lewellen:
it with this weather. Yeah, Bill's
Hiram Cuevas:
dog has no issue with this weather.
Bill Stites:
No, I have 140 pound long haired limb burger.
Bill Stites:
She prefers to be outside. I often laugh, because when
Bill Stites:
everyone's like during the winters, make sure you don't
Bill Stites:
leave your dogs outside too long. You need to think of your
Bill Stites:
animals. My dogs like I'm laying out here it's cold, and when
Bill Stites:
there's snow, she's submarine under that thing. We can't get
Bill Stites:
her in, let alone worry about her getting too cold.
Christina Lewellen:
Yeah, this is exactly the deal with a
Christina Lewellen:
staffer, an atlas staffer, Kelsea Watson, has a husky, and
Christina Lewellen:
that dog will sit out in the backyard and just look in at her
Christina Lewellen:
parents as James and Kelsea are trying to call her in, she's
Christina Lewellen:
like, Yeah, no, I'll come in when I decide.
Hiram Cuevas:
You know, we have a black lab, who's about 92
Hiram Cuevas:
pounds. And right now, anytime there's water and cold, that's
Hiram Cuevas:
one happy pup. Oh
Christina Lewellen:
my gosh, this is cool. We've never talked
Christina Lewellen:
about animals before. That was fun. I love this. Well, I'm
Christina Lewellen:
bringing you guys together today on a technical topic, and we
Christina Lewellen:
deep dive into things. Every once in a while, we did one a
Christina Lewellen:
while back on APIs, and not long ago, Hiram and Bill, you guys
Christina Lewellen:
were talking about data and data sharing across platforms, and
Christina Lewellen:
why that ends up being kind of a headache for technology leaders
Christina Lewellen:
at our schools. What I find really interesting is that you
Christina Lewellen:
each at your schools represent a different major sis player in
Christina Lewellen:
our market, Hiram, you're a Blackbaud school. Bill, you're a
Christina Lewellen:
Veracross school. And those are the two loves of our lives here
Christina Lewellen:
in the Independent School world. And what's really cool is that
Christina Lewellen:
we're going to have a conversation with a
Christina Lewellen:
representative from each of those companies today on the
Christina Lewellen:
pod. So this is kind of exciting, but before we welcome
Christina Lewellen:
them in as guests, I wanted to at least just stop for a second
Christina Lewellen:
and have you guys explain sort of where this came from. You
Christina Lewellen:
both came to me with this idea you wanted to have a
Christina Lewellen:
conversation around one roster and data woes as you're
Christina Lewellen:
wrestling them. So tell our audience why you wanted to have
Christina Lewellen:
this conversation. I think the
Hiram Cuevas:
interesting thing is, there's so many wonderful
Hiram Cuevas:
resources that are being created right now that I look at some of
Hiram Cuevas:
the textbooks and some of the ancillary materials that are in
Hiram Cuevas:
textbooks, and then you sit there like, okay, so they've got
Hiram Cuevas:
quizzes built in, they've got lab activities built in, they've
Hiram Cuevas:
got problem sets built in, but how do I get this information
Hiram Cuevas:
from my sis to that platform and then Bill and I would be like,
Hiram Cuevas:
Well, how do You get that information, then back into your
Hiram Cuevas:
grade books? So this was a conundrum for us, because we
Hiram Cuevas:
were creating these micro silos of information that our teachers
Hiram Cuevas:
desperately needed to have within the SIS so that they
Hiram Cuevas:
could leverage all of the functionalities of their
Unknown:
SIS programs. So like,
Christina Lewellen:
the tool is super cool. But then the tech
Christina Lewellen:
leader has to come in and say, Yeah, but how are we going to
Christina Lewellen:
get it back in the SAS, right? So you guys are like,
Bill Stites:
I mean, I remember, it was a few conferences ago, a
Bill Stites:
bunch of us sitting in a room together and saying, you know,
Bill Stites:
we really need to start pressuring our vendors to be
Bill Stites:
able to have data go back and forth a lot easier than what
Bill Stites:
it's currently doing. Everyone offers something, and we'll get
Bill Stites:
into what those options are, you know, keep it at a high level
Bill Stites:
before we get a little deeper. But every company's got, like,
Bill Stites:
an option for getting data out and data in, but it's all ad
Bill Stites:
hoc, and having something where you've got a standard that you
Bill Stites:
can point to so you're not having to pivot and change and
Bill Stites:
develop for every single vendor that you work on was really
Bill Stites:
something that has risen to the top, as far as like a need or a
Bill Stites:
must have, even for schools like ours, and that's where our
Bill Stites:
guests can come in and speak to a lot of that work right now.
Hiram Cuevas:
Yeah. And Kristina. What's also
Hiram Cuevas:
interesting is when your data map matures for your
Hiram Cuevas:
institution, and now you start looking at the connections to
Hiram Cuevas:
some of your ed tech materials, and you notice that the
Hiram Cuevas:
directions are unidirectional versus bi directional. That
Hiram Cuevas:
really gets the attention of senior leadership, because all
Hiram Cuevas:
of a sudden they're starting to recognize, okay, we have
Hiram Cuevas:
problems here. We're developing silos. We have asynchronous
Hiram Cuevas:
information that could potentially result and if you
Hiram Cuevas:
were to look at Bill's data map, his is color coded, and any
Hiram Cuevas:
lines that show that they're black, that means that they're
Hiram Cuevas:
man, they're manual transfers of data. You want to eliminate as
Hiram Cuevas:
many manual transfers of data as possible. Well,
Christina Lewellen:
that sounds like a really good setup to
Christina Lewellen:
welcome our guests for this technical, deep dive that we're
Christina Lewellen:
going into today. First, I want to welcome Steven Boyle, who is
Christina Lewellen:
the Senior Product Manager at Blackbaud. We are also welcoming
Christina Lewellen:
to the pod Thad white and Thad is the Director of Product
Christina Lewellen:
Management at Veracross. Gentlemen, thank you so much for
Christina Lewellen:
joining us today for this conversation, before we get into
Christina Lewellen:
the topic at hand, I'm hoping that you could just take a quick
Christina Lewellen:
minute and introduce yourselves to our community. Steven, why
Christina Lewellen:
don't we go to you? You're with Blackbaud. How long have you
Christina Lewellen:
been there? And tell us a little bit about yourself. Yeah,
Stephen Boyle:
lovely to be here. I've been at Blackbaud for
Stephen Boyle:
28 years now. Kind of a unicorn for the technology company. I'm
Stephen Boyle:
a product manager, and kind of unicorn there too. I started out
Stephen Boyle:
as a software developer, and so my journey through, through my
Stephen Boyle:
career as software developer to UX designer to researcher and
Stephen Boyle:
now product manager, and I'm a product manager of our APIs and
Stephen Boyle:
integrations and one rush jerseys in that portfolio. So my
Stephen Boyle:
technical background helps a lot in being able to bridge the
Stephen Boyle:
divide. Heard the guys talking about their data map and
Stephen Boyle:
problems and how they go to the vendors. That's how these kind
Stephen Boyle:
of topics present, right? They present in a we've got this
Stephen Boyle:
problem, and we need you to solve it, and it becomes
Stephen Boyle:
incumbent on us to jump in. But I really like diving into these
Stephen Boyle:
tech details. I
Christina Lewellen:
love it sounds like you're the perfect
Christina Lewellen:
guest for us. And Thad tell us a little bit about your background
Christina Lewellen:
and how long you've been with Veracross. Absolutely.
Thad White:
Hello, everyone. Excited to be here. I am the
Thad White:
Director of Product Management at Veracross for academics and
Thad White:
admissions. I've been with Veracross Coming up on seven
Thad White:
years now, and in that time various roles in product but
Thad White:
started as an account manager, and prior to that, implemented
Thad White:
Veracross at Culver Academy. So shout out to all my Culver
Thad White:
Academy's family. I haven't seen you all in a long time, but
Thad White:
excited to just continue to provide value here. But yeah,
Thad White:
excellent topic. Really excited to get out in the weeds
Christina Lewellen:
with it. Awesome. So before I let the
Christina Lewellen:
guys take over with their detailed tech questions, I'm the
Christina Lewellen:
non techie person on this pod, so I would love to ask you guys
Christina Lewellen:
to explain to me what it is we're talking about in terms of,
Christina Lewellen:
okay? So we said one roster, and that is kind of the standard
Christina Lewellen:
that has been designed and developed by one ed tech, a
Christina Lewellen:
company that basically says we need to kind of standardize how
Christina Lewellen:
data flows, right? So I'm hoping that you can explain that, or if
Christina Lewellen:
I've gotten that wrong, help me and help our audience
Christina Lewellen:
understand, especially those who maybe are listening in as
Christina Lewellen:
leadership, or folks who are not deep into the IT side, but maybe
Christina Lewellen:
more on the Ed Tech side. Why does this matter? What is it and
Christina Lewellen:
why even have this conversation
Stephen Boyle:
the way it presents to us, the way the
Stephen Boyle:
problem comes to us is, I've got this silo, I've got this manual
Stephen Boyle:
process. I want to use this tool, but I can't put another
Stephen Boyle:
task on my teachers. I can't give them another log in. I
Stephen Boyle:
can't have this data just be abandoned somewhere. And so when
Stephen Boyle:
we hear that type of problem, the answer is an integration of
Stephen Boyle:
some kind, especially that and I both are an si s, a student
Stephen Boyle:
information system where schools want the source of truth to
Stephen Boyle:
reside, so they want that information to flow back and
Stephen Boyle:
forth, one roster enters the picture to solve, originally, a
Stephen Boyle:
specific problem of connecting that learning management
Stephen Boyle:
situation to all the tools that These teachers want to use,
Stephen Boyle:
providing a way to present rosters and students and
Stephen Boyle:
teachers information such that there isn't manual entry,
Stephen Boyle:
there's no data error because of double entry, and then getting
Stephen Boyle:
that data back. Once again, you don't want double entry, and you
Stephen Boyle:
don't want the teacher to have that extra task of doing some
Stephen Boyle:
additional step you want to remove the friction, you want to
Stephen Boyle:
prevent the data errors, and that's where one roster comes
Stephen Boyle:
in. They built a standard. It's not a product. They built a
Stephen Boyle:
standard, sort of a rule set that everybody agrees to abide
Stephen Boyle:
by, so that when we talk to each other, we know what information
Stephen Boyle:
we're getting and we know what information we have to give. It
Stephen Boyle:
in order to solve the problem. So,
Christina Lewellen:
Steven, before we started this call, you
Christina Lewellen:
kind of made the analogy that it's almost like a USB, a USB
Christina Lewellen:
cord, or whatever. They all fit in the same box. So we have to
Christina Lewellen:
agree somewhere what a USB looks like. Yeah,
Stephen Boyle:
all the different companies agreed to put this
Stephen Boyle:
plug on our machines and all the device can we agree to support
Stephen Boyle:
the data that comes through the plug and all the different power
Stephen Boyle:
rules, so they don't have to talk to each other. All they
Stephen Boyle:
have to do is read the standard and know that if I present my
Stephen Boyle:
system such that it adopts a standard that everybody can work
Stephen Boyle:
with me, that's the gold standard. That's what they're
Stephen Boyle:
trying to achieve, the Holy Grail, I guess. And it has its
Stephen Boyle:
benefits. There definitely are places where we can talk about
Stephen Boyle:
the gaps. Is every standard USB wouldn't have evolved if it was
Stephen Boyle:
perfect the first time. Same thing is true for one roster. So
Stephen Boyle:
then
Christina Lewellen:
Thad, let me ask you this, whether you're
Christina Lewellen:
with Veracross or Blackbaud or another system, was this a
Christina Lewellen:
welcome standard for folks like you that are offering sis
Christina Lewellen:
systems in terms of a solution to this problem?
Thad White:
Yeah, absolutely. And I think, echoing what
Thad White:
Steven's already said, the core problem we're presented with is
Thad White:
our schools, globally, all over the place, have individual
Thad White:
ecosystems of software that they use. Right? There's no one tool
Thad White:
to rule them all. And so everybody's got these various
Thad White:
vendors, hundreds of them, and the SIS goal is to provide them
Thad White:
support and to enable them to use that ecosystem, official,
Thad White:
right? And so things like one roster, these standards where we
Thad White:
can say, okay, the bar for what it takes for us to be able to
Thad White:
integrate with XYZ vendor is now substantially lower because we
Thad White:
know we're speaking the same language. We've established it
Thad White:
is one roster. There's no drastic and huge process to
Thad White:
understand well, we call it this, and we structure the data
Thad White:
this way. What do you do? Like that interpretation that has to
Thad White:
happen when you're building a partnership and a true like
Thad White:
direct integration, significantly less effort on
Thad White:
both sides when we have an established standard to align
Thad White:
with. So we can say we speak one roster. Do you great? Okay, so
Thad White:
we can get to usability, or at least testability, very, very
Thad White:
rapidly. So that's hugely impactful for us. And so as we
Thad White:
identify more and more key vendors and they align with the
Thad White:
standard, it just the market itself comes up as far as
Thad White:
interoperability and how easy that is for both schools and the
Thad White:
vendors themselves, our management is significantly
Thad White:
lower, because instead of managing eight direct
Thad White:
integrations, custom integrations, with vendors, now
Thad White:
we're managing a platform, a language for managing Those one
Thad White:
will get you many with regard to the effort put into that so
Thad White:
hugely impactful for us, things like one roster.
Bill Stites:
Whenever you talk to a vendor about how you can
Bill Stites:
manage data, they will talk about, really, what I'll say is
Bill Stites:
three things. They'll talk about, oh yeah. We can give you
Bill Stites:
a CSV, you know, a basic spreadsheet, comma separated
Bill Stites:
sheet with these things. Or they'll talk about, oh, yeah,
Bill Stites:
that'll work. We have an SFTP server, secure file transfer
Bill Stites:
server. Or they'll talk about their API, and like, oh, we have
Bill Stites:
an open API. And you'll get into all sorts of conversations about
Bill Stites:
APIs. We have another podcast on that. But those are what a
Bill Stites:
vendor, a product might sell you on. Is this open ability to get
Bill Stites:
at your data. Why is one roster better than what's come
Stephen Boyle:
before it? I think that the idea of a
Stephen Boyle:
standard and it being agreed upon by everyone, what it
Stephen Boyle:
eliminates on both sides, the SIS and the school and the
Stephen Boyle:
solution, it eliminates the requirement that the school go
Stephen Boyle:
to their vendor and convince them to have a proprietary
Stephen Boyle:
direct integration for each of the tools they use. And then it
Stephen Boyle:
takes the burden, a lot of the burden, let me not say the whole
Stephen Boyle:
burden, but it takes a lot of the burden off of the CIS to
Stephen Boyle:
provide one integration that all the tools can use, instead of
Stephen Boyle:
having to do a production cycle for every tool they want to
Stephen Boyle:
support, so it's faster to market. It's easier to convince
Stephen Boyle:
a partner when the lift is smaller. That's really what it's
Stephen Boyle:
doing. It's allowing the SAS vendor to solve problems for
Stephen Boyle:
numerous tools all at once. It's allowing the school to have an
Stephen Boyle:
easier conversation with their vendor to provide that access to
Stephen Boyle:
the tools they want to use to solve their school specific
Stephen Boyle:
ecosystem of problems. So that's what I think the real what did
Stephen Boyle:
it replace kind of answer is, is it replaced that burden of
Stephen Boyle:
convincing all of your business partners to spend all of this
Stephen Boyle:
time building something specific when they can build something
Stephen Boyle:
that everybody can start
Thad White:
on Absolutely, I'll echo what you just said there. I
Thad White:
think what we've seen on the ver cross side is it creates
Thad White:
opportunities that otherwise would have been difficult to
Thad White:
maneuver. So in the case of some large partners, let's say
Thad White:
massive companies, perhaps working with. US is not on their
Thad White:
top priority list. And so a lot of them, it would seem, have
Thad White:
aligned with standards to say, we just work with the standard
Thad White:
you align with that we can cover everybody, and we're not having
Thad White:
to talk to each and every vendor, because they've got
Thad White:
1000s of us reaching out, right? And so plugging into that has
Thad White:
opened up conversations and opportunities to be able to
Thad White:
integrate with other vendors in a way that is collaborative, in
Thad White:
a true partnership, rather than and Bill, you've seen this on
Thad White:
the Veracross side historically, perhaps building custom
Thad White:
integrations from the si s side that the other vendor may not
Thad White:
even be aware exists, right? And so yes, we integrate with this
Thad White:
vendor. Different from Yeah, we speak the same language as this
Thad White:
vendor. We have a way to talk about and build bi directional
Thad White:
support for you the school from both sides. So those things, I
Thad White:
think one roster is really helpful with regard to just that
Thad White:
partnership with vendors who otherwise might not have time or
Thad White:
resources to devote to each and every one of us as Ed Tech
Thad White:
vendors.
Hiram Cuevas:
So sad you mentioned the term language. And
Hiram Cuevas:
what's interesting is what we've been trying to avoid, I think,
Hiram Cuevas:
with one roster, is developing these dialects for each of these
Hiram Cuevas:
software companies more than anything else. And so it's bad
Hiram Cuevas:
enough that we've got to understand New Jersey speak,
Bill Stites:
right bill, stop, stop.
Hiram Cuevas:
So how would this avoid the issues with, say, a
Hiram Cuevas:
hub or a middleware solution that some schools are deploying?
Hiram Cuevas:
Yeah,
Thad White:
that's a good question. Obviously, the more
Thad White:
links in the chain, the more complicated it is to find the
Thad White:
issue right. And so anytime we're talking about a middleware
Thad White:
solution. The answer, I'm thinking about the support
Thad White:
perspective, right? Something goes wrong. You reach out to
Thad White:
support on either vendor side, and they go, Well, it's this
Thad White:
guy's problem. No, it's this person's problem. And so you get
Thad White:
kind of that man in the middle syndrome for a lot of these
Thad White:
especially when we're talking about middleware, not to say
Thad White:
that middleware doesn't have a value. There are certainly value
Thad White:
to that. We've listed some of them out in what we've talked
Thad White:
about. But I think with regard to this, things like to get into
Thad White:
the nitty gritty, the source ID concept, which, in one roster,
Thad White:
is a sort of a UU ID concept that says we're referring to
Thad White:
these objects. Here is the identifier. I don't care what
Thad White:
Veracross ID for this thing is. I don't care what Canvas ID for
Thad White:
this thing is everybody talking about with us, about these
Thad White:
objects is using this string. We're in agreement, that's how
Thad White:
we're referring to it. So a number of these technical
Thad White:
aspects built into the standard really facilitate faster. What
Thad White:
thing are you actually talking about? Vendor B versus
Thad White:
Veracross. Vendor a right and allows us to present tooling to
Thad White:
the schools to sort of self service, a lot of that, being
Thad White:
able to go in and go, Oh, I see there's a problem with this
Thad White:
person's class. What's the corresponding class in my LMS
Thad White:
vendor, using some of those aspects built into the standard
Thad White:
really allows the school to play a larger role in understanding
Thad White:
what's happening and why? Whereas in a middleware, you're
Thad White:
really getting obfuscation about well, it was sent over here and
Thad White:
then they manipulated and sent over here, you get lost in that
Thad White:
process. And so for me, I think one roster is the shared
Thad White:
language middleware, if you will, really enables the school
Thad White:
side personnel to have a better understanding of what's going on
Thad White:
and exchange of information between the
Bill Stites:
systems. One of the things I would add to that is,
Bill Stites:
in terms of the links in the chain, I think are a great
Bill Stites:
thing. And I'll be even more blunt about it, you know,
Bill Stites:
middleware comes at a cost, and it's an additional cost that the
Bill Stites:
school needs to take on in order to make that work. So if you're
Bill Stites:
working with vendor a and vendor B, and they're saying, we need
Bill Stites:
this piece in the middle to connect the two that are going
Bill Stites:
to bring things together. That's a cost, that's me
Bill Stites:
troubleshooting and supporting. And one of the interesting
Bill Stites:
things that I'll point out with that is a real example we had
Bill Stites:
when we were going down that route with one of these tools,
Bill Stites:
was they opened it up and they said, All right, we're going to
Bill Stites:
try to connect this. We need these data points just give us
Bill Stites:
an access to all these scopes. And I'm like, Why? Why do you
Bill Stites:
need that much information? Like you need to tell me what you
Bill Stites:
want, because you're telling me to give you all the scopes
Bill Stites:
associated with academics. And I was like, No. And when you need
Bill Stites:
to think about like, how we secure our own data and where
Bill Stites:
that goes. You know, you need to better define what it is you
Bill Stites:
need. You need to look into what the in this case, the Veracross
Bill Stites:
API, or even the Blackboard API, is saying that they're
Bill Stites:
delivering. And you need to be very explicit about what are you
Bill Stites:
going to take? Because that's opening up a can of worms when
Bill Stites:
it comes to who's got access to the data, that is just a huge
Bill Stites:
red flag for what we're dealing with as schools in the day to
Bill Stites:
day, the vetting conversations that we've had, you know, the
Bill Stites:
access to data, all of those things, and the one roster helps
Bill Stites:
that immensely. So my
Christina Lewellen:
question, then, for Steven and Thad, do
Christina Lewellen:
you guys have some. Examples, you know, Hiram mentioned the
Christina Lewellen:
textbook thing with grading mechanisms, and Bill is talking
Christina Lewellen:
about like, hey, you know, I would love to use this option,
Christina Lewellen:
but I don't want to release access to my data. So do you
Christina Lewellen:
guys have some examples of ways that independent schools are
Christina Lewellen:
typically taking advantage of the one roster shared language?
Christina Lewellen:
But are there also unique things that you've seen that are kind
Christina Lewellen:
of cool, that this solution is essentially unlocking for
Christina Lewellen:
schools? Yeah,
Stephen Boyle:
absolutely. I typically think of this in the
Stephen Boyle:
intended use, and then the other uses. One roster is really an
Stephen Boyle:
LMS integration tool and standard from its intended use,
Stephen Boyle:
meaning it produces rosters so that your external LMS can build
Stephen Boyle:
its classes for the teachers and add the students automatically,
Stephen Boyle:
so nobody's having to do Duba work there, and it returns
Stephen Boyle:
grades and assignment information back to your sis
Stephen Boyle:
automatically. And so that's the intended use. So examples are
Stephen Boyle:
any LMS, and I'm sure that'll agree. The way that presents to
Stephen Boyle:
us is our sales teams come and say, I've got a school that's on
Stephen Boyle:
Google Classroom, that's on Microsoft school data sync, it's
Stephen Boyle:
on whatever LMS we want to sell into that school, but we have to
Stephen Boyle:
meet them where they are, so we need a system that will allow us
Stephen Boyle:
to go into that school, and they will be successful from day one,
Stephen Boyle:
because we integrate and once again, teachers don't have
Stephen Boyle:
multiple logins all that. So that's the intended use. There
Stephen Boyle:
are plenty of fun, odd anecdotal stories of somebody using one
Stephen Boyle:
roster because it's just data. And one of the most recent ones
Stephen Boyle:
that I had, it was a small communication tool that really
Stephen Boyle:
just wanted the names and emails and SMS phone number, right,
Stephen Boyle:
like one Roxbury produced that they like, we can do this. We're
Stephen Boyle:
going to be an emergency service for the school. It was aimed at
Stephen Boyle:
super small schools, so they didn't need full API
Stephen Boyle:
functionality of you know, both of our systems have dedicated
Stephen Boyle:
contact lists and things like that. That one roster is an LMS
Stephen Boyle:
tool, so it's limited in some of the data. So these alternate,
Stephen Boyle:
these non standard uses will go to it because of the standard
Stephen Boyle:
it's data. They don't have to go and convince Blackbaud or
Stephen Boyle:
anybody to write some dedicated thing for them. They don't have
Stephen Boyle:
to figure out our proprietary API. So those are the fun
Stephen Boyle:
stories. Is that off brand use? I
Thad White:
would agree, yeah. And the most interesting ones
Thad White:
that we've seen, so obviously, the BI directionality of one
Thad White:
roster is what we typically focus on, right, database of
Thad White:
record for demographic information and rostering and
Thad White:
all of that, and database of record for grades and they
Thad White:
share, right? Most of the interesting things that were
Thad White:
somewhat unexpected is, to what degree and how many, how much
Thad White:
interest there was, you know, just stopping at rostering,
Thad White:
right? Like we have a lot of folks who ship rostering in that
Thad White:
format, same thing Steven is talking about, just for the
Thad White:
purpose of it's lightweight. They understand it is
Thad White:
consistent. Rostering a demographic information. They're
Thad White:
much easier to pull, perhaps, than developing individualized
Thad White:
solutions for all that. So I was surprised by that. Over the last
Thad White:
few years we've been doing this, just how many of them just say,
Thad White:
yep, roster, and we just need that, and we don't have anything
Thad White:
to do with an LMS, but we'll gladly pull that from you in the
Thad White:
standard so I think that's encouraging that above and
Thad White:
beyond, like we're always focusing on LMS style scenarios,
Thad White:
but there's plenty of other folks who have nothing to do
Thad White:
with LMS activities who are glad to adopt the standard and use it
Thad White:
just for rostering, which is exciting, and I think
Bill Stites:
that's a key point in terms of one roster is geared
Bill Stites:
a lot towards managing the LMS features, those things that
Bill Stites:
touch the classroom features, because the One thing I don't
Bill Stites:
want to come out is sounding like a caveman, you know, like
Bill Stites:
ABI bad. You know, it's not that all these other tools, all these
Bill Stites:
other things I was leading with, you know, in terms of what are
Bill Stites:
the problems that we're trying to solve with this, those
Bill Stites:
things, they need to be there. They have a distinct place to
Bill Stites:
it. But it's interesting when working with my colleague, Alek
Bill Stites:
Duba, when we talk about things that Veracross can and can't do,
Bill Stites:
it's kind of like you've got to be like Neo in the Matrix. You
Bill Stites:
see the way in which the system is designed to work, but then
Bill Stites:
you figure out how you can bend it to make it work, and make it
Bill Stites:
work to suit your needs. And I think it's those unexpected ways
Bill Stites:
in which, particularly as you said, that smaller companies,
Bill Stites:
companies that don't have the resources to build out in this
Bill Stites:
way. And Steven, I think you made this point as well. It
Bill Stites:
gives everyone that one thing to build towards, and say, Okay, I
Bill Stites:
don't need to worry about trying to read the Blackbaud API or the
Bill Stites:
Veracross API or the vendor X API. I can just look at this one
Bill Stites:
thing and draw out of it what I need and maybe supplement with
Bill Stites:
other things, but you can definitely do it in that way. I
Bill Stites:
think it's awesome. Peter
Christina Lewellen:
our producer, Peter Frank, I think
Christina Lewellen:
we're going to need to order some T shirts that say API bad
Stephen Boyle:
and put Bill's face. We have a new meme.
Christina Lewellen:
I. Think we do. Sorry. Hiram, go ahead,
Christina Lewellen:
yeah,
Hiram Cuevas:
I think what's really interesting there is to
Hiram Cuevas:
Bill's point and everybody's discussing so far, the rostering
Hiram Cuevas:
is a key component, but it also allows these vendors who excel
Hiram Cuevas:
at creating these ancillary resources to excel at that and
Hiram Cuevas:
focus on that, so that you get some great teaching and learning
Hiram Cuevas:
going on in those spaces. And really you end up with the major
Hiram Cuevas:
sis and systems being, you know, the hubs and the cores of that
Hiram Cuevas:
data for those ancillary systems,
Stephen Boyle:
yep, and that is the great thing about it,
Stephen Boyle:
because more than just LMS is even slightly adjacent tools.
Stephen Boyle:
We've already mentioned, some of them, like learning materials,
Stephen Boyle:
like you've got a textbook management system that you want
Stephen Boyle:
to associate with a textbook with a class, so you need to
Stephen Boyle:
load the classes in and the rosters for the classes, but
Stephen Boyle:
you're not passing grades back. You don't have to do the rest of
Stephen Boyle:
that connection. So that company can rely on the data and the
Stephen Boyle:
fact that you've got user data and roster data and can build up
Stephen Boyle:
for what they need. And then I've worked with a lot of
Stephen Boyle:
partners, and it's interesting to see the evolution of the
Stephen Boyle:
partner itself. Think of it in terms of a startup. A startup
Stephen Boyle:
can do a very lightweight use of data, and it applies across a
Stephen Boyle:
lot of vendors. And so they can start there, and that'll get
Stephen Boyle:
them to that 50% point of what they want. And then they can go
Stephen Boyle:
back and say, Okay, I've got this data, and I can have this
Stephen Boyle:
functionality that I've got across the board. Now let me go
Stephen Boyle:
supplement it with their proprietary API functionality
Stephen Boyle:
that's not available through one roster. But then I can go to
Stephen Boyle:
that vendors clients and say, Hey, you're with Blackbaud,
Stephen Boyle:
you're with their across we can also do this. So then that
Stephen Boyle:
partner has a stepping stool to each phase of their development.
Stephen Boyle:
I've loved walking these partners grow into that. It's
Stephen Boyle:
interesting, and it takes a while to see it happen, but it
Stephen Boyle:
is cool to watch. So one of the
Bill Stites:
things that I think is an area where even with like
Bill Stites:
the APIs that may be out there, just using straight APIs, not
Bill Stites:
using one roster that come up is, I think there's certain
Bill Stites:
limitations, or there's certain things that I'd be curious to
Bill Stites:
hear your thoughts on around issues related to DEI efforts,
Bill Stites:
because I think one of the things that we've struggled with
Bill Stites:
with certain APIs that we've used in the past is that, for
Bill Stites:
instance, when we have name changes for whatever reason, and
Bill Stites:
we say that in the school, and I'm going to use a Veracross
Bill Stites:
example, because that's what I know. But if we're using
Bill Stites:
Preferred Name, and we want preferred name use, so we'll put
Bill Stites:
in a preferred name. So I'll use myself. My first name is
Bill Stites:
William. My preferred name is Bill. What I want showing up
Bill Stites:
everywhere is bill. But if your API is pulling my first name,
Bill Stites:
they're pulling William. And when I see William, I said, this
Bill Stites:
person or this school doesn't know who I am. They don't see me
Bill Stites:
for who I am, because my name is Bill, right? William is the name
Bill Stites:
that I was given, but Bill is who I am. So how do you think
Bill Stites:
about the solve around those and I'll pick on Thad for a second
Bill Stites:
here, not to exclude picking on Steven, because I love picking
Bill Stites:
on everyone equally. And Thad knows this very, very well about
Bill Stites:
me. But like I opened up our back end, and I went to the API
Bill Stites:
the section here, and I'm looking at what is the given
Bill Stites:
name, which is, again, that normalized field header for
Bill Stites:
first name, and what Veracross is supplying his first name, but
Bill Stites:
if we do that, William's not going to be bill where we need
Bill Stites:
him to be bill. And if the systems in our gender, we've got
Bill Stites:
male, female, non binary. Well, what if the lists are different?
Bill Stites:
How do you solve for those types of problems?
Thad White:
Absolutely, it's challenging, right? And I think
Thad White:
not only software vendors, but schools, we're all wrestling
Thad White:
with the same thing, right? And ultimately, in my mind, it boils
Thad White:
down to, I've been having a lot of conversation around this in
Thad White:
the background, right? How do you convey and maintain agency
Thad White:
over personal identity as a person? Bill. You have the right
Thad White:
to expect that people refer to you by Bill, and that extends to
Thad White:
the expectations applied to the software vendors you work with,
Thad White:
just like you're saying. I mean, think historically, we've
Thad White:
applied some generic, systematic rules behind the scenes to go,
Thad White:
Okay, we have a field for preferred name, use that here,
Thad White:
there, and otherwise, how do we facilitate you saying, my
Thad White:
preferred name is Bill, and I want it to be used in these
Thad White:
contexts, right? That's a broader question that we're
Thad White:
wrestling with, but above and beyond that, every standard is
Thad White:
constantly building in the same way that we all are. And so it's
Thad White:
certainly a challenge that all companies, everybody I've talked
Thad White:
to who, especially in technology, is all working
Thad White:
through. How do we structure this better? Is it the addition
Thad White:
of additional fields related to identity. Where we expand on
Thad White:
these things is our notion of name, for instance, being x
Thad White:
number of fields that represent your name? Are there
Thad White:
alternatives? Are there differentiation between legal
Thad White:
name and preferred name versus any number of other things,
Thad White:
right? And so I think the challenge. Right? And I don't
Thad White:
have an answer for you, Bill, just to be clear, I think the
Thad White:
challenge we're all up against is, as we develop and as
Thad White:
culturally globally, we discern what the appropriate mechanism
Thad White:
and ways of approaching identity broadly and agency within that
Thad White:
identity, especially in software develop. How do we all keep in
Thad White:
sync so that we're developing, again, sort of a standard on
Thad White:
expectations around how we model those things in software, and
Thad White:
then how do standards like one roster keep track with that? And
Thad White:
I think it's just open and honest communication discussions
Thad White:
amongst people facilitated by places like one ed tech that are
Thad White:
talking about, hey, we're all facing the same kind of
Thad White:
challenge. How are we approaching it as a community of
Thad White:
software vendors, right? What are our expectations? How are we
Thad White:
thinking about the future of this and developing this to the
Thad White:
benefit of our schools and the people in our schools, right?
Thad White:
Because ultimately, it's a person centric thing that we
Thad White:
want to get right, and I think everybody wants to get it right.
Thad White:
You know, it's just immensely challenging, and in a good way,
Stephen Boyle:
completely agree with that. It's well put that
Stephen Boyle:
this is more than the standard. It's a community discussion, and
Stephen Boyle:
the pressures on one roster come from different areas. I
Stephen Boyle:
sometimes describe one roster as a five corner carpet for a four
Stephen Boyle:
corner rim. It covers a lot. It's not perfect. So there are
Stephen Boyle:
gaps, and you have to deal with the gaps. The devil's in the
Stephen Boyle:
details right in terms of the implementation, etc. And this
Stephen Boyle:
dei conversation, you can almost look at my backlog and see the
Stephen Boyle:
conversation happen in the work items that we had to deliver and
Stephen Boyle:
the blackboard, it presents as a school coming and saying, I'm an
Stephen Boyle:
independent school and I promote my school as connected to its
Stephen Boyle:
community, understanding its students. And if my teacher
Stephen Boyle:
says, William, are you here when they're taking attendance, that
Stephen Boyle:
is saying you don't know who I am to that student and that
Stephen Boyle:
family is just one degree farther separated from my
Stephen Boyle:
school, or even we talk about parents. Yes, parents same
Stephen Boyle:
thing,
Christina Lewellen:
maybe a Mr. And Mr. A miss and a miss kind
Christina Lewellen:
of thing. And so there needs to be some flexibility in what our
Christina Lewellen:
families look like. Yeah, the
Stephen Boyle:
first step in this conversation, in my one
Stephen Boyle:
roster work that we did was we need to present preferred name,
Stephen Boyle:
because this is where the teacher is talking to the kid.
Stephen Boyle:
This isn't legal name scenario. LMS is the intended use. So I
Stephen Boyle:
said, Oh, okay, I'll change the data that goes out through one
Stephen Boyle:
roster and made a preferred name. Boom. I immediately got
Stephen Boyle:
kickback, because some of the uses need first name, their uses
Stephen Boyle:
where they're dealing with monetary accounts that need to
Stephen Boyle:
be the legal name, because it's eventually going to their
Stephen Boyle:
general ledger, etc. So then we had to go back and it becomes,
Stephen Boyle:
when you implement one roster, the SIS has leeway on how much
Stephen Boyle:
flexibility and how many choices are available to the data
Stephen Boyle:
definition that goes out. So we had to add, we had to switch
Stephen Boyle:
back first. We delivered first name, then we changed it to
Stephen Boyle:
preferred name, and then we had to add the option, because it's
Stephen Boyle:
different for each school. Now there's that option, and we even
Stephen Boyle:
had, if you talk about LMS being the Inte, we had a school, a
Stephen Boyle:
conservative group of schools. It was a Catholic Diocese that
Stephen Boyle:
wanted had their position in the debate, and it meant that the
Stephen Boyle:
software had to reflect their position and their stance to
Stephen Boyle:
their community. And that community expected that, and
Stephen Boyle:
they were accepting of that, and it is a community discussion,
Stephen Boyle:
but software needs to be there for the school, and the school
Stephen Boyle:
has to be there for their community, for their students.
Stephen Boyle:
You know, those pressures come from both directions. And like I
Stephen Boyle:
said, there's only one given name field. We even did the same
Stephen Boyle:
thing for last name. Imagine the scenario where you have a
Stephen Boyle:
divorced family. The kid's legal name is William Johnson, but
Stephen Boyle:
he's so mad at his dad right now. He's adopted his mom's
Stephen Boyle:
maiden name is his last name, and he goes by Bill, so he's you
Stephen Boyle:
want both of those things. And so once again, the pressure
Stephen Boyle:
comes from the school. I want to meet my kids where they are. I
Stephen Boyle:
need to present myself as connected to my community. So
Stephen Boyle:
one of
Bill Stites:
the follow ups to that, and you both kind of
Bill Stites:
alluded to this, you know, one roster is what we're working
Bill Stites:
towards. To what level do each of you, either individually or
Bill Stites:
as a company have a voice in the facilitation of the development
Bill Stites:
of this standard, because is this being simply prescriptive,
Bill Stites:
or is there an open dialog about how to solve this problems
Bill Stites:
amongst others that may arise?
Christina Lewellen:
Yeah. Do they listen to you? I understand
Stephen Boyle:
that there's a council of advisors for one
Stephen Boyle:
roster. I have no idea how they decide on that, or what the
Stephen Boyle:
meeting sound like. I've not talked to anyone. I'm not even
Stephen Boyle:
sure who to talk to. Maybe that has a better connection there.
Stephen Boyle:
I'll echo that.
Thad White:
We, to date, have not played a big role in
Thad White:
participating in those conversations. To Steve's point,
Thad White:
there is a guiding directive board. Board, but we're not
Thad White:
participant in that at the moment, if
Christina Lewellen:
you did have a seat at the table, is there
Christina Lewellen:
something at the top of y'all list that you would ask them to
Christina Lewellen:
consider? Ooh, great
Stephen Boyle:
question. It is a good question. I think it's
Stephen Boyle:
gonna come down to pet peeves to some degree, and mine would be
Stephen Boyle:
assignment categories. Assignment Categories to date
Stephen Boyle:
have been this one big list, and a lot of the solutions that work
Stephen Boyle:
with us define the assignment categories on a per class basis.
Stephen Boyle:
Once again, it's the five cornered rug and the four
Stephen Boyle:
cornered room. There's slight differences between the way that
Stephen Boyle:
the LMS operates in the way that we operate, and that transition
Stephen Boyle:
is fraught with peril. I
Thad White:
think if I'm being selfish, the thing that would
Thad White:
help me the most is probably the coverage of term and final
Thad White:
grades. So right now, we consume assignments and assignment
Thad White:
grades as part of the standard. Most common thing that I see the
Thad White:
standard does not cover weighting definitions. So the
Thad White:
way that assignments are weighted, in terms of how term
Thad White:
and final grades get calculated, can differ between systems, and
Thad White:
we're somewhat blind to that. So the school is then in the
Thad White:
position to go, well, is the weighting the same for this
Thad White:
class as it is in Veracross and the LMS? There's a lot of
Thad White:
confusion that arises from that, just as a lack of definition,
Thad White:
and the outcome of that is ultimately the worst thing,
Thad White:
because you get to the end of the term and the teacher goes,
Thad White:
it says it's an 80 9b in the LMS, but in Veracross, it's an
Thad White:
87 Why the heck is that calculation different? And then
Thad White:
the work to track that down and go, Well, this assignment, to
Thad White:
your point, Steven, about the status is this assignment was
Thad White:
this status of Veracross, which gets exempted from inclusion in
Thad White:
the overall calculation, right? There's this, which assignment
Thad White:
grades are we factoring into that great calculation, and how
Thad White:
we recently discovered one that was the definition of drop
Thad White:
lowest grade actually differed between how we were thinking
Thad White:
about it in an LMS vendor, right? And so when I talk to
Thad White:
schools about this, what I usually hear is, we love the way
Thad White:
our LMS does it. We wish we could just pass those grades as
Thad White:
they are calculated there in Veracross and publish report
Thad White:
cards consistently. I'm hearing that over and over again, so if
Thad White:
they were capable of handling that exchange, and we don't have
Thad White:
to worry about the calculation in both systems. That would do
Thad White:
me
Stephen Boyle:
a lot of favors. I look at that as well. I
Stephen Boyle:
consistently, in fact, you talk about the calculation in the si
Stephen Boyle:
s not reflecting it's almost like we need the metadata, like
Stephen Boyle:
you set up calculations this way, if we could pass back and
Stephen Boyle:
forth, that kind of thing that helps the problem. Another one,
Stephen Boyle:
and this also helps the problem. But one, it feels like a cheat,
Stephen Boyle:
but it's still a reality, is that teachers, they see that 89
Stephen Boyle:
they know that kid is improved or something, and they're not
Stephen Boyle:
changing the calculation. They're not changing any of the
Stephen Boyle:
grades. They just make it an A to be reported, so that fudge
Stephen Boyle:
factor that is inherent in the teachers understanding of their
Stephen Boyle:
class and their students isn't represented by what one roster
Stephen Boyle:
is able to deliver, so it has to be handled elsewhere. It means
Stephen Boyle:
that there's an additional step for teachers. Once again, the
Stephen Boyle:
idea is to reduce friction. One roster does a great job of
Stephen Boyle:
getting us to a certain point in that journey, but there's always
Stephen Boyle:
that last mile. Yeah, right, the cable companies that last mile
Stephen Boyle:
was the most expensive. Sometimes. That's
Christina Lewellen:
a great analogy. Does that resonate with
Christina Lewellen:
you guys? Bill and Hiram, do those examples make sense to
Christina Lewellen:
you? Would you have anything on your wish list based on your
Christina Lewellen:
experiences with one roster?
Bill Stites:
To me, it's always these nuanced little differences
Bill Stites:
that come up that are the things that similar to the DEI
Bill Stites:
question. These are the little things that are just part and
Bill Stites:
parcel of school. You know, you mentioned that little fudge
Bill Stites:
factor, like, Man, this kid's really worked hard. I'm gonna
Bill Stites:
give them the benefit of the bump and help them out there.
Bill Stites:
And it's those things you know, you can solve for 98 99% of the
Bill Stites:
problems. But if it's that 1% and that 1% takes away that
Bill Stites:
individual ownership of acknowledging the student, that
Bill Stites:
1% may weigh a lot heavier in terms of what you're able to do.
Bill Stites:
So it's not the overall percentage weight that you put
Bill Stites:
on that type of a problem, but what that problem means to the
Bill Stites:
work that's going to go in to rectify it or normalize it on
Bill Stites:
the back end.
Stephen Boyle:
And Kristina,
Hiram Cuevas:
I would say, you know, when we refer to that USB
Hiram Cuevas:
analogy early on in our conversation, that is so much
Hiram Cuevas:
simpler by comparison to this human factor that we're dealing
Hiram Cuevas:
with when we're talking about one roster and the nuances and
Hiram Cuevas:
the fact that it's supposed to be a standard, but we all know
Hiram Cuevas:
that independent schools are special, and they all want to be
Hiram Cuevas:
treated as such, and that their way is unique, and that's how
Hiram Cuevas:
they reach their communities. That is the challenge of trying
Hiram Cuevas:
to apply to. These standards across independent schools in
Hiram Cuevas:
general.
Bill Stites:
One of the things that I want to ask, too is we're
Bill Stites:
talking about the one rostered standard around this LMS type
Bill Stites:
data. And one of the questions I have, and it's from a little bit
Bill Stites:
of a broader experience here, how many standards are you
Bill Stites:
working towards? Because it may be as difficult as trying to
Bill Stites:
develop your own API and develop those connections. And is one
Bill Stites:
roster a US based standard, or is it an international standard
Bill Stites:
that is applied and used? And you know, that raises in my
Bill Stites:
response was, you know, we're both working with an Australian
Bill Stites:
school, and what applies there, like I've learned, what the list
Bill Stites:
standard is, which is something we don't use here in the States.
Bill Stites:
How many standards are there? And is having things like this
Bill Stites:
solving problems or just adding to the laundry list of things
Bill Stites:
that you need to develop around?
Stephen Boyle:
It's both, because
Thad White:
it solves the problem. It gets you to a point,
Thad White:
but when you get to that point, you start living there, you
Thad White:
start realizing the shortcomings, and then even one
Thad White:
roster has a version. I think most of the industry is still
Thad White:
integrated with 1.1 but they have a 1.2 and they've iterated
Thad White:
and adopted, and think that we've referred to international
Thad White:
business and Australian schools and international schools in
Thad White:
general, and lower schools, for instance, typically deal with
Thad White:
skills and mastery as opposed to grades, and that's nowhere in
Thad White:
one roster, but the 1.2 version is trying to bring it in. When
Thad White:
you talk about how many standards are you trying to
Thad White:
write to? Not only are there multiple standards that we all
Thad White:
try to adopt. But the standards themselves have their own
Thad White:
multiple sets of rules, right, like 1.1 versus 1.2 and having
Thad White:
to adopt the next best thing. And the challenge there, just
Thad White:
like with the USB argument, when they made USB C, all the
Thad White:
manufacturers then have to agree, and the next machine has
Thad White:
to come out with it, and then the wire producers like
Thad White:
everybody has to agree when to start using it, to make it
Thad White:
worthwhile for people to start implementing it, and that's
Thad White:
another argument in it, you know. So I'm not even sure where
Thad White:
that one lands. I think we're in the middle of that one. I agree
Thad White:
many, many, right? The thing that's top of mind for me and
Thad White:
not to bridge into a very large conversation we likely don't
Thad White:
have time for. But in addition to standards that aim to solve
Thad White:
problems, we're seeing a burgeoning set of realities
Thad White:
related to standards that are governmentally related. So
Thad White:
whether that's standards that are adopted by individual states
Thad White:
in the United States, or governmental standards
Thad White:
externally, where the expectations and the reality of
Thad White:
failing to satisfy that standard have much more severe
Thad White:
consequences to both the school and the vendor than the sort of
Thad White:
opt in. Okay, we want the opportunity to speak the same
Thad White:
language as everybody. So I think for us, Bill, a lot of
Thad White:
thought about particularly, and you're right, in Australia,
Thad White:
we're seeing a lot of this. There's a lot of background
Thad White:
conversation going on. But in the US, we're seeing an influx
Thad White:
of state specific governmental standards, stuff like Ed five,
Thad White:
variations on Ed five. So there are questions as we look ahead,
Thad White:
especially as schools are thinking about changing
Thad White:
realities. Any proposed changes to Department of Ed at a
Thad White:
governmental level in the United States. What does that mean?
Thad White:
Does that invoke each state going this way and having
Thad White:
different standards? Do we then have 50 US standards for
Thad White:
governmental compliance we have to align with right and so I
Thad White:
think many, many is the answer. There different levels of
Thad White:
severity on impact there, but lots of thought behind the
Thad White:
scenes into how standards play into the future of what we're
Thad White:
doing,
Stephen Boyle:
and those standards encroach on the
Stephen Boyle:
Independent School market in surprising ways. I think that
Stephen Boyle:
they've been insulated from the 50 state problem in a lot of
Stephen Boyle:
ways, and the vendors to independent schools have been
Stephen Boyle:
because they haven't had to do state reporting. Now, with that
Stephen Boyle:
broad argument of vouchers and government money going to an
Stephen Boyle:
independent schools taking advantage of that, the second
Stephen Boyle:
they start taking money that is from a government, they have to
Stephen Boyle:
start reporting according to what the government requires in
Stephen Boyle:
order for that money to be acceptable. And that's where you
Stephen Boyle:
have those standards, which then puts the pressure back in the
Stephen Boyle:
vendors court, but then it's multiplied by 50 plus
Stephen Boyle:
international at that point, standards can proliferate
Stephen Boyle:
quickly. So would one roster
Christina Lewellen:
compatibility or, let's say there's a tool
Christina Lewellen:
that a tech leader or a school is evaluating, and they want to
Christina Lewellen:
kind of say, we need this tool, and it's between tool A and B.
Christina Lewellen:
Is one roster a deciding factor is that a question that you ask,
Christina Lewellen:
like in the search process, rather than the whole Yeah, we
Christina Lewellen:
can do an API bill and Hiram. Do you guys go out and say you need
Christina Lewellen:
to speak one roster? Because one roster speaks to Veracross and
Christina Lewellen:
Blackbaud. Yeah, absolutely,
Hiram Cuevas:
it's definitely part of the conversation. Needs
Hiram Cuevas:
to be a prerequisite bill, and I have suffered immensely with
Hiram Cuevas:
data silos, and we've worked really hard to get most of our
Hiram Cuevas:
applications and services talking to each other with
Hiram Cuevas:
intentionality. And so there's got to be a really good reason
Hiram Cuevas:
for us to utilize a product that does not offer that API is good.
Hiram Cuevas:
Still, in this case, we need that API, or we need the one
Hiram Cuevas:
roster functionality, or we haven't mentioned it, but LTI as
Hiram Cuevas:
well.
Bill Stites:
My question is always, how can I move my data
Bill Stites:
around? What are the solutions that you're offering me to do
Bill Stites:
that, and one roster for the services and the tools that
Bill Stites:
leverage that definitely give me a short answer as compared to a
Bill Stites:
long answer. And I think the short answer is, yes, we support
Bill Stites:
one roster. Okay, I know what one roster does and doesn't do.
Bill Stites:
Or it might be, yeah, we have an API for that. Okay, well, then
Bill Stites:
we've got to talk about the API. What is the API going to do, or,
Bill Stites:
Yes, we can do, I'm just going to use a Veracross, and we've
Bill Stites:
got a data package for that. You know, you can build a query and
Bill Stites:
export it out, and then somebody can grab it and pick it up and
Bill Stites:
do what they want, with which there's a good deal of
Bill Stites:
flexibility to that. So it's something nice, but again, it's
Bill Stites:
a point of break. So it's a layers of answers that I'm
Bill Stites:
looking for, and at the top of that is one roster, because it's
Bill Stites:
the thing I suffer from most, which is giving the shortest
Bill Stites:
answer. It's the shortest answer. I know what it does, and
Bill Stites:
I can kind of
Stephen Boyle:
move on. And Kristina,
Hiram Cuevas:
what we're doing is we're juggling all of those
Hiram Cuevas:
different form factors. If you think about it as IT directors,
Hiram Cuevas:
we have applications that utilize one roster. We have some
Hiram Cuevas:
that utilize SSO, we have some that utilize API. We have some
Hiram Cuevas:
that have manual transfers of data. You've got that three
Hiram Cuevas:
headed monster, and you're trying really hard to balance
Hiram Cuevas:
all those things. It's
Christina Lewellen:
interesting. Let me turn it now to our SIS
Christina Lewellen:
vendors on the call here. Do you guys also nudge your clients
Christina Lewellen:
your schools towards solutions that because one roster is a
Christina Lewellen:
quick yes or an easier Yes? Are you helping guide them down this
Christina Lewellen:
path?
Stephen Boyle:
The answer, from our perspective, usually is, if
Stephen Boyle:
there's one tool that integrates using one roster and one tool
Stephen Boyle:
that doesn't integrate, that's like the obvious solution. And
Stephen Boyle:
Hiram point of all the different form factors that he's dealing
Stephen Boyle:
with, illustrates it is what they're looking for is a
Stephen Boyle:
simplicity of training, simplicity of the system itself.
Stephen Boyle:
They don't want teachers to have multiple logins, they don't want
Stephen Boyle:
data silos. They don't want that extra friction. So I think that
Stephen Boyle:
the schools are okay with really any solution that solves those
Stephen Boyle:
problems. Just one roster is an easy question to ask of a
Stephen Boyle:
vendor. So I think that that's one of the places where it
Stephen Boyle:
really shines, is that you can say, do you integrate with
Stephen Boyle:
Blackbaud? You integrate with Veracross, or you say, do you
Stephen Boyle:
integrate with one roster? Any of
Thad White:
those work, I think, and provided it checks the boxes
Thad White:
that keep their life the simplest. I think they're
Thad White:
willing to adopt any of the answers. But like Bill said, One
Thad White:
roster is the short answer, yeah, I think that's fair.
Thad White:
Certainly, when we get schools asking about vendors we don't
Thad White:
know we're not partnered with, right? One of the first
Thad White:
questions is, okay, what's the easiest path to delivering on
Thad White:
your expectations for integration between the
Thad White:
platforms? If one roster is the answer, we all cheer, right?
Thad White:
Like that's good news, but in a similar fashion, working down,
Thad White:
okay, you don't do one roster. Can you integrate with our API,
Thad White:
so on and so forth, down the ladder of preference, if you
Thad White:
will, I would say so far as like school has a need that they
Thad White:
reach out and go, Hey, is there a vendor that you all prefer to
Thad White:
work with? The answer there is. It depends. So obviously it's
Thad White:
easier on us for one roster, but the vendor in question has to
Thad White:
fit the needs of schools first and foremost. Like, what is the
Thad White:
best opportunity for you all to find success in working with a
Thad White:
vendor? And we're going to be open and honest about that,
Thad White:
regardless of the degree of pain involved with us working with
Thad White:
them. But yeah, certainly a one roster is a part of all of those
Thad White:
conversations, just as the in road to do we understand what it
Thad White:
will look like to get up and running with this vendor for
Thad White:
you, and I think that from both of our perspectives, best answer
Thad White:
is they work with our proprietary API, because it's
Thad White:
easier for them to be more tightly integrated with exactly
Thad White:
the data structure that we present. Next best, I think, is
Thad White:
one roster, because we know that they've written to the standard,
Thad White:
and everybody has an expectation of what's coming and what's
Thad White:
going and then after that is the more manual or CSV SFTP kind of
Thad White:
solutions. So there is a hierarchy. Obviously, we want it
Thad White:
to be as tightly bound as possible, but there are multiple
Stephen Boyle:
ways to solve that. Abi good. We need the T
Stephen Boyle:
shirts now,
Christina Lewellen:
or maybe two sided shirts, one on the front,
Christina Lewellen:
one on the back. All right. So before we wrap up, we started
Christina Lewellen:
today. Thad and Steven, we were talking about our animals. So do
Christina Lewellen:
you guys have pets?
Stephen Boyle:
Have a cat? Have to tape to the wall whenever a
Stephen Boyle:
meeting comes on,
Christina Lewellen:
taping the. Cat to the wall. Steven, Steven,
Christina Lewellen:
I don't think you want to admit that on air. How about you?
Christina Lewellen:
Thad,
Thad White:
my wife and I have a cat, Harley, a dog, Lena, a
Thad White:
little Cocker, and then we have a goat. Jolene, you have a goat?
Thad White:
I have a goat? Yeah, we have a Nubian goat. Nick. We have a
Thad White:
winner. How big is it? Rather large. I mean, she's an adult,
Thad White:
so she's waist or higher. She's full grown goat.
Christina Lewellen:
You have a large goat named Jolene, indeed.
Unknown:
Do you do yoga with your goat?
Thad White:
No, although that might be a side hustle, I'll
Thad White:
have to pick up when it gets warmer.
Bill Stites:
Pat. My dog is waist high. So, I mean, like,
Bill Stites:
seriously,
Stephen Boyle:
probably equivalent size. Yeah. Have you
Stephen Boyle:
gotten Jolene to sing the Taylor Swift song with you, to have the
Stephen Boyle:
scream scene?
Thad White:
No, that's a good idea, though.
Christina Lewellen:
You know, I think that we're gonna need a
Christina Lewellen:
picture of Jolene to drop in the show notes, because now I have,
Christina Lewellen:
we're gonna be here another hour.
Unknown:
I want to see the cat taped to the wall.
Stephen Boyle:
I'll find that picture, maybe Velcro, but you
Stephen Boyle:
know,
Christina Lewellen:
all right, we're gonna need some pictures
Christina Lewellen:
for the show notes. You guys, I'm so grateful to both
Christina Lewellen:
Veracross and Blackbaud for lending you to us for this hour.
Christina Lewellen:
This has been really incredible. And what's great is that we kept
Christina Lewellen:
it, I think, at a high enough level to be impactful, and not
Christina Lewellen:
getting too techie, but also kind of diving into why this
Christina Lewellen:
matters. And so I'm grateful that you were on the pod with us
Christina Lewellen:
today to help us sort it all out. And Bill and Hiram, you
Christina Lewellen:
guys are right. This was a great topic, and grateful that you
Christina Lewellen:
brought
Bill Stites:
it to us. Awesome. That's one thing we did right
Christina Lewellen:
for the moment. All right, guys, thanks
Christina Lewellen:
so much. Have a great day.
Peter Frank:
This has been talking technology with Atlas,
Peter Frank:
produced by the Association of Technology Leaders in
Peter Frank:
Independent Schools. For more information about Atlas and
Peter Frank:
Atlas membership, please visit the atlas.org if you enjoyed
Peter Frank:
this discussion, please subscribe, leave a review and
Peter Frank:
share this podcast with your colleagues in the independent
Peter Frank:
school community. Thank you for listening. You.
