Securing Independent Schools Against Deepfake Deception and AI Companions with Evan Harris
Presented by:
Evan Harris of Pathos Consulting Group addresses the escalating risks of AI-generated deepfakes and companions within school communities. The discussion highlights the psychological tactics scammers use to bypass critical thinking, the limitations of technical detection tools, and the urgent need for schools to update policies and student safety protocols.
- Pathos Consulting Group - The organization founded by Evan Harris focused on deepfake safety and crisis readiness for schools.
- Reality Defender - A digital forensics tool mentioned for its use in identifying AI-generated content.
- KnowBe4 - A cybersecurity awareness platform discussed in the context of phishing and deepfake training.
- "Fake" by Perry Carpenter - A recommended resource for understanding the science of deception and human nature.
- Presidium - An organization cited for its data on the rise of youth-to-youth abuse within independent schools.
- Adaptive Security - A company providing cybersecurity training for high-stakes organizations.
Transcript
Peter Frank:
Paul, welcome to Talking Technology with Atlas,
Peter Frank:
the show that plugs you into the important topics and trends for
Peter Frank:
technology leaders all through a unique independent school lens.
Peter Frank:
We'll hear stories from technology directors and other
Peter Frank:
special guests from the independent school community,
Peter Frank:
and provide you with focused learning and deep dive topics.
Peter Frank:
And now, please welcome your host, Christina Llewellyn.
Christina Lewellen:
Hello, everyone, and welcome back to
Christina Lewellen:
Talking Technology with Atlas. I'm Christina Llewellyn, the
Christina Lewellen:
President and CEO of the Association of Technology
Christina Lewellen:
Leaders in Independent Schools,
Bill Stites:
and I'm Bill Stites, the Director of
Bill Stites:
Technology at Montclair Kimberly Academy in Montclair, New
Bill Stites:
Jersey,
Hiram Cuevas:
and I'm Hiram Cuevas, the director of
Hiram Cuevas:
Information Systems and Academic Technology at St. Christopher
Hiram Cuevas:
School in Richmond, Virginia.
Christina Lewellen:
Gentlemen, we are live from the stage in
Christina Lewellen:
Columbus, Ohio, for the 2026 Atlas Annual Conference. How has
Christina Lewellen:
your day been so far? This is the family reunion that we look
Christina Lewellen:
forward to all year long.
Bill Stites:
It is indeed. I am doing great. I am doing much
Bill Stites:
better than I've been doing the past two days. Been a busy
Bill Stites:
weekend working here with the board, getting everything set
Bill Stites:
and ready for the next phase of Atlas. So, it's been a fun
Bill Stites:
weekend to start, and looking forward for the next few days.
Hiram Cuevas:
Absolutely, it's two very busy days with the
Hiram Cuevas:
board, but we are in a great place. We are so looking forward
Hiram Cuevas:
to the next two days, we just finished a wonderful keynote, so
Hiram Cuevas:
we're excited to get in that conversation.
Christina Lewellen:
I do have to say, for those of you who are
Christina Lewellen:
listening after the fact and were not with us live here in
Christina Lewellen:
Columbus, we just had a really emotional, incredible general
Christina Lewellen:
session where we did a lot of welcoming and handing over of
Christina Lewellen:
the reins as I transition out of the CEO role and into my new
Christina Lewellen:
organization, but I have to point out for our listeners that
Christina Lewellen:
I did finally identify my zombie melee weapon of choice,
Hiram Cuevas:
outstanding,
Bill Stites:
and I would be remiss in saying that Hiram and
Bill Stites:
I, we were doing a little deep research in terms of what that
Bill Stites:
actually looks like, what it represents. Just,
Christina Lewellen:
yeah, I mean,
Bill Stites:
it was the right choice.
Christina Lewellen:
Look, I asked AI, knowing what you know
Christina Lewellen:
about me, which is probably scary, what would my weapon be
Christina Lewellen:
for fighting a zombie, and it gave me a fire ax.
Hiram Cuevas:
Nothing better.
Christina Lewellen:
Okay,
Bill Stites:
it made perfect sense.
Christina Lewellen:
Okay,
Hiram Cuevas:
so watching your ax throwing prowess.
Christina Lewellen:
Oh, I definitely can kill the ax
Christina Lewellen:
throwing situation, so
Bill Stites:
indeed.
Christina Lewellen:
Yeah, well, there we go. So, it's finally on
Christina Lewellen:
record. I figured I better figure out what my weapon was
Christina Lewellen:
before we finally wrapped up this era of me being on the
Christina Lewellen:
podcast, because everybody needs to know what my weapon is. So,
Christina Lewellen:
it is apparently the fire ax. So, we'll have to link that
Christina Lewellen:
whole thing in the show notes. Awesome. Well, we're really
Christina Lewellen:
excited to be here with Evan Harris. Evan, you just got off
Christina Lewellen:
the stage, and we're no rest for the weary. You are right here
Christina Lewellen:
with us, recording the podcast. Thank you for an incredible
Christina Lewellen:
general session. Please introduce yourself to our
Christina Lewellen:
listeners.
Evan Harris:
Yeah, thank you so much for having me. So, my Evan
Evan Harris:
Harris, I'm the president of Pathos Consulting Group, and we
Evan Harris:
help schools with deep fake safety, and so that looks like
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helping schools with policy with crisis readiness plans that
Evan Harris:
comes off in the form of a tabletop simulating a deep fake
Evan Harris:
incident at the school, as well as preventative education for
Evan Harris:
every major stakeholder group, from leadership teams to board
Evan Harris:
members, parents, faculty, staff, all the way down to
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students, both at the upper school and middle school level,
Evan Harris:
and so this work has now been going on for a few years, and
Evan Harris:
we're learning a lot about what's working in terms of best
Evan Harris:
practices on all these different areas. Deepfakes is a lot to
Evan Harris:
take on all at once. It's a fast-moving target, but we sort
Evan Harris:
of feel like we're starting to get our arms around it again,
Evan Harris:
those kind of major tent poles, the policy, the crisis
Evan Harris:
readiness, and the prevention.
Christina Lewellen:
So, what's really interesting is that you
Christina Lewellen:
all could have heard a pin drop in this room when you were
Christina Lewellen:
speaking, because the deep fakes have gotten so, so good. How do
Christina Lewellen:
you even describe a deep fake? What is
Evan Harris:
it, without over complicating it? It's an
Evan Harris:
AI-generated imitation of reality. It comes in the form of
Evan Harris:
an image, a video, or a vocal clone, where someone essentially
Evan Harris:
creates a digital twin of your voice, and I'm thinking too
Evan Harris:
about imitations of human emotions, also in the form of
Evan Harris:
like AI companions, and some of the ways in which we're seeing
Evan Harris:
that impact our society, and especially our kids. But the
Evan Harris:
kind of main thing that I try to emphasize to people is that even
Evan Harris:
if you're very smart, very discerning, very media literate,
Evan Harris:
you can be fooled by these things. I have been fooled by
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these things in the last six months, the line between what's
Evan Harris:
real and what's fake is sort of disappearing before our eyes.
Evan Harris:
This impacts a number of different areas across school
Evan Harris:
life, so we have to start getting ready before something
Evan Harris:
happens, not afterwards.
Christina Lewellen:
It was so interesting because you put some
Christina Lewellen:
great examples up on the screen, and basically asked the
Christina Lewellen:
audience, left or right, is this the fake one, or is the one on
Christina Lewellen:
the right the fake one, and we failed the test. It was maybe a
Christina Lewellen:
5050 or 6040 but you said that kids do a better job than adults
Christina Lewellen:
in detecting the fake one.
Evan Harris:
Yeah, so this was fascinating, because I thought,
Evan Harris:
oh, I'm in front of a room full of tech leaders, this will be
Evan Harris:
the audience,
Christina Lewellen:
we let you down.
Evan Harris:
I was like, this isn't gonna work here. There,
Evan Harris:
and then, no, it was basically 5050 split. I've done this same
Evan Harris:
test, the spot, the deep fake test, with audiences of kids now
Evan Harris:
across the country, even kids as young as fourth graders. It's
Evan Harris:
like clockwork at school after school, 90% of them are getting
Evan Harris:
this right, and I emphasize to people, they're not getting it
Evan Harris:
right because they're smarter or more media literate, it's
Evan Harris:
because they're swimming in a sea of AI swap, and they're
Evan Harris:
developing a sixth sense for this. This is actually not great
Evan Harris:
news. It's breeding overconfidence. Kids think that
Evan Harris:
they don't have to learn about deep fakes because they already
Evan Harris:
can spot them, but that has an expiration date. The technology
Evan Harris:
is getting more and more realistic, and I share this also
Evan Harris:
to impress upon schools the work of telling kids about deep fakes
Evan Harris:
has been done for you. You now have to inform them and protect
Evan Harris:
them. Do your deterrence messaging about deep fake abuse,
Evan Harris:
and also let victims know that if they come forward, they're
Evan Harris:
going to be supported. Not talking about deepfakes is not a
Evan Harris:
solution. They're already ahead of us on this. We're the ones
Evan Harris:
that are behind. So, I mentioned AI companionship. I always root
Evan Harris:
this, or try to root this, in a sense of empathy for kids, which
Evan Harris:
is that if you're a kid who is isolated or vulnerable, you're
Evan Harris:
going through something really difficult, a moment of crisis.
Evan Harris:
Having a companion, an AI companion that is always
Evan Harris:
available, never judgmental, and agrees with a lot of your ideas
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is going to seem very attractive, and I think we can
Evan Harris:
recognize that and show empathy for that. Here's the problem:
Evan Harris:
there are a couple of issues with this that kids have to be
Evan Harris:
aware of. The first one, these are not mental health
Evan Harris:
professionals, and they did a study of AI companions and found
Evan Harris:
that they only respond appropriately to a child in
Evan Harris:
crisis 22% of the time. If you think about what a real
Evan Harris:
therapist does, they push back on your bad ideas. AIs are
Evan Harris:
designed to be sycophantic and to have you engage, and so
Evan Harris:
they're not designed for that task. And real kids have
Evan Harris:
self-harmed because an AI told them it was a good idea. Another
Evan Harris:
thing that I worry about is a child who's learning patterns of
Evan Harris:
what it means to be in a relationship from one of these
Evan Harris:
AI companions and have that transfer to their real-life
Evan Harris:
relationships. Middle school, high school, it's a messy,
Evan Harris:
awkward time to be learning these skills, but I'm worried
Evan Harris:
about not just what kids are opting into with these
Evan Harris:
companions, but what they are opting out of by not learning
Evan Harris:
those hard skills that are again messy, awkward, but necessary.
Evan Harris:
They form the foundation of what we use our whole lives to relate
Evan Harris:
to people. The last one are the privacy risks, if you were using
Evan Harris:
AI as a confidant, a therapist, a romantic partner, you were
Evan Harris:
probably inputting very sensitive information without
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fully understanding where is it stored, can it be resold, does
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it ever get deleted? Kids don't necessarily think through those
Evan Harris:
things, and so I worry about AI companionship from a couple of
Evan Harris:
different angles.
Christina Lewellen:
So, before I let you guys get into your
Christina Lewellen:
questions, and I know Bill and Hiram, you have some, I want
Christina Lewellen:
your reaction. You were in the audience, first of all, quick
Christina Lewellen:
question, did y'all get it right? Did you pick the right
Christina Lewellen:
fake? No, yeah, I didn't either, Bill. I'm gonna admit I picked
Christina Lewellen:
the wrong one. So, Hiram, you got it right.
Hiram Cuevas:
Yeah, I could tell the perfume one, it's really
Hiram Cuevas:
difficult to hold three bottles,
Christina Lewellen:
yeah,
Bill Stites:
yeah.
Christina Lewellen:
So, what was your reaction overall to Evans
Christina Lewellen:
chat? Were you prepared for it? Are you more worried? Are you
Christina Lewellen:
scared? Are you concerned?
Hiram Cuevas:
I mean, I want to target one of your statements,
Hiram Cuevas:
which I think will perhaps push this conversation that the goal
Hiram Cuevas:
of AI fakes really is to short circuit critical thinking with
Hiram Cuevas:
emotion that really struck a chord with me.
Christina Lewellen:
Yeah,
Hiram Cuevas:
then all of the examples you provided afterwards
Hiram Cuevas:
were all stunning examples of that very statement. Can you
Hiram Cuevas:
tease that out a little bit more for our audience?
Evan Harris:
So, I think you know, when it comes to deep
Evan Harris:
fakes, so much of this feels new, and so anything we can do
Evan Harris:
to look back at the science of how misinformation spreads, the
Evan Harris:
science of kind of how the human brain works puts us on much
Evan Harris:
firmer territory, because while the technology changes, the
Evan Harris:
human brain stays basically the same, and so as the technology
Evan Harris:
gets better, I'm teaching more and more about that psychology
Evan Harris:
piece, and there are a couple things that scammers do that are
Evan Harris:
psychological in nature, fake urgency, fake emotion, appeal to
Evan Harris:
authority, confirmation bias, wish fulfillment. These are all
Evan Harris:
very, very studied, but the thing you're alluding to is this
Evan Harris:
idea that when we encounter emotionally charged material, we
Evan Harris:
are more likely to believe it and more likely to share it, and
Evan Harris:
it doesn't matter what kind of emotion it is. It could be
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something that's designed to enrage and inflame, be divisive,
Evan Harris:
but it could also be a baby or a puppy or a wedding, and you'll
Evan Harris:
notice in sort of the deep fake content that's getting
Evan Harris:
generated, they seem very aware of this, they're spinning up
Evan Harris:
very emotional material because they know again that it short
Evan Harris:
circuits critical thinking, and we're more likely to believe and
Evan Harris:
share.
Bill Stites:
Yeah, listening to it, there were a lot of things
Bill Stites:
that really struck a chord, and it was interesting for me. After
Bill Stites:
you concluded, I went back because I came here with a team
Bill Stites:
of five from my school. I checked in with them just to see
Bill Stites:
where they were, and there was a lot of questions, like where are
Bill Stites:
we on this, what's going on with this, and even when I was
Bill Stites:
sitting next to Hiram listening to you speak, he was alluding to
Bill Stites:
some of the things that he was doing at. In his school, as it
Bill Stites:
relates to some of the voice fate, I was sitting next to Eric
Bill Stites:
Hoffman, and I jokingly said to him, "This is why I don't answer
Bill Stites:
my phone anymore. Why let Siri answer it, screen it, because
Bill Stites:
I'm not going to pick it up unless I know that it's from a
Bill Stites:
trusted caller. At that point, the conversation that I had with
Bill Stites:
my colleague at the time is like this is just a growing piece of
Bill Stites:
what we've been dealing with, with regard to, like, I call the
Bill Stites:
head of school email, that you get, and it's even gotten to the
Bill Stites:
point of texting, you know, when I get them, when I see those
Bill Stites:
come through, I always send out, like, a message explaining and
Bill Stites:
pointing to the reasons why these things are off, and it
Bill Stites:
just speaks to me to the amount of work that we need to continue
Bill Stites:
to do in our due diligence around the cyber risks and the
Bill Stites:
risks that we take on to protect people and how we can think
Bill Stites:
about that in your example of the father that thought their
Bill Stites:
kid needed to be bailed out exactly it's those types of
Bill Stites:
things that I think about it how do we talk to our faculty or
Bill Stites:
employees about it from an institutional perspective, but
Bill Stites:
also from a personal approach, because I think if you can land
Bill Stites:
it with them in that personal realm, it carries through in the
Bill Stites:
work that we're all trying to do at school, so it's a two birds
Bill Stites:
one stone type thing. If we can hit this right,
Evan Harris:
I've noticed in doing sort of faculty
Evan Harris:
facilitating their sessions, a lot of people take off their
Evan Harris:
teacher hat and they're a parent or a child, right, and so
Evan Harris:
they're thinking about protecting their kids, and
Evan Harris:
they're very often thinking about protecting their parents,
Evan Harris:
and so when I talk about needing a code word, yeah, that's for
Evan Harris:
your business office, but it's also for your family, and I
Evan Harris:
would definitely include your parents in that, but that idea
Evan Harris:
also of second channel verification is another sort of
Evan Harris:
important step, and I think teaching the psychology of
Evan Harris:
because these scams, they repeat the same sorts of tricks over
Evan Harris:
and over again, sort of anecdotally, I don't know how
Evan Harris:
well documented this is, but I've done enough of these
Evan Harris:
sessions to have heard a lot of people who've been scammed this
Evan Harris:
way, or they attempted to scam them this way, one of the sort
Evan Harris:
of odd things that they'll do with this particular scam you
Evan Harris:
alluded to is that it's not just that someone you know has been
Evan Harris:
hurt, it's often that they've broken their nose, and they do
Evan Harris:
the broken nose thing because they want you to attribute any
Evan Harris:
discrepancy in the voice to the broken nose, and so they've
Evan Harris:
really thought through all these little things, but if you're
Evan Harris:
kind of aware of the technology, you've been exposed to it, there
Evan Harris:
is a bit of an inoculating effect to that.
Christina Lewellen:
It's really interesting. So, not long ago, I
Christina Lewellen:
instituted the code word thing with Atlas' staff, and it just
Christina Lewellen:
reminded me of being like a kid in the 80s, right? Like, we were
Christina Lewellen:
always told that if your parents couldn't come pick you up at
Christina Lewellen:
school and some stranger danger to avoid the stranger danger,
Christina Lewellen:
they would send somebody in, and there would be a code word,
Christina Lewellen:
right? And so I don't know why that came to me a while ago, but
Christina Lewellen:
we have one Atlas that we've never put in writing. We've only
Christina Lewellen:
expressed that code word on a staff call because it's been
Christina Lewellen:
necessary. Like, Christina, did you get a new cell phone number?
Christina Lewellen:
No. And so, like, the code word is already baked into how we do
Christina Lewellen:
business continuity and safety protection at Atlas, but I never
Christina Lewellen:
thought about doing one with my family.
Evan Harris:
Yeah, and what you're describing, by the way,
Evan Harris:
is making it part of the culture, normalizing it, making
Evan Harris:
it normal to ask, so it's not awkward, but just like it's just
Evan Harris:
a normal thing to ask for. I remember I'd worked with a
Evan Harris:
school and I emailed them afterwards because something in
Evan Harris:
the invoice needed to change, and then they called me
Evan Harris:
immediately afterwards to verify that it was really me, and I
Evan Harris:
thought, oh, the training worked, they listened, they
Evan Harris:
immediately applying it perfect.
Bill Stites:
So to that point, one of the questions you
Bill Stites:
mentioned early on that I'm really curious, because often in
Bill Stites:
the work that we do as tech leaders at our schools, we're
Bill Stites:
asked to come in and either to verify or to help do like a deep
Bill Stites:
dive on that forensic side of things, which you mentioned
Bill Stites:
early on in your talk, and I was just wondering, like, if I'm
Bill Stites:
called in to do some of that work, I know what tools I have,
Bill Stites:
if it's like related to Google, if it's related to another
Bill Stites:
service that we have some level of admin access to it, but how
Bill Stites:
do you talk to schools about, and you did list off a few of
Bill Stites:
those things, but are there any ways in which schools can
Bill Stites:
leverage forensic tools to understand that, because so
Bill Stites:
often we're hit with these things and we're not sure, and
Bill Stites:
like, how do you go about looking at it? And this is one
Bill Stites:
of those areas where I'll say this for Hiram's sake, my Batman
Bill Stites:
tool belt of things that I've got, I don't know what tool I'm
Bill Stites:
pulling out to do this forensic work around deep fakes, and is
Bill Stites:
there anything available to us?
Christina Lewellen:
Yeah, the shadow, it's got to be crazy on
Christina Lewellen:
this.
Bill Stites:
Yeah,
Evan Harris:
yes, I've got bad news. It should have been the
Evan Harris:
name of my talk, because I've got bad news. So, and schools, I
Evan Harris:
don't fault them for this, but we very often want like tech
Evan Harris:
solutions to tech problems. We want to buy a thing off the
Evan Harris:
shelf and have that be like the plug and play solution, I think.
Evan Harris:
Actually, in some ways, schools are prepared for this moment
Evan Harris:
because we saw that AI detection in the English classroom really
Evan Harris:
failed us. Yep, and so we already kind of have a mental
Evan Harris:
model for the number of false positives and stuff that we get.
Evan Harris:
The truth is that there are tools, Reality Defender is a
Evan Harris:
very well-known one. There are a couple in that space, but they
Evan Harris:
have plenty of false positives. Positives, they're not perfect
Evan Harris:
in the Washington Post. When they did their article about the
Evan Harris:
deep fakes of Nicolas Maduro, you may have seen when he was
Evan Harris:
arrested, it was accompanied with 100 different fakes of him
Evan Harris:
also being arrested. And then Washington Post did their
Evan Harris:
article about what was real and what wasn't, and they mentioned
Evan Harris:
some of the tools they were using. And I talked to a mentor
Evan Harris:
of mine, he's a guy named Perry Carpenter works for No. Before,
Evan Harris:
wrote the book "Fake. He's great, and I asked Perry, "I
Evan Harris:
said, like, what tools are they using here? And he said, "Let me
Evan Harris:
tell you a little secret about those tools. When you're the
Evan Harris:
Washington Post and you have a subscription, you're not using
Evan Harris:
just the digital tool, you're using the team of digital
Evan Harris:
forensics people, because they're the only ones who can
Evan Harris:
really do the verification.
Bill Stites:
But that's an interesting point, because,
Bill Stites:
like, you mentioned, know before, that's the service that
Bill Stites:
we use, and most of the work that we do around is phishing
Bill Stites:
training, because that's what's tied to our policies, the cyber
Bill Stites:
insurance that we have to take out, that's where that's tied,
Bill Stites:
none of this is there, and what Hiram shared with me was one of
Bill Stites:
these tools that they were using, I'd love for an
Bill Stites:
organization like no before to have that second tier,
Bill Stites:
potentially that we could leverage for them and go in on
Bill Stites:
those.
Evan Harris:
Can I do some breaking news on the podcast?
Christina Lewellen:
Let's do it. We're always here for that.
Evan Harris:
We're talking about that.
Christina Lewellen:
Yes, so already here.
Evan Harris:
So it may end up being a company like Adaptive
Evan Harris:
Security. They do cybersecurity training for like everything
Evan Harris:
from Major League Baseball to the US Senate, or it could be a
Evan Harris:
no before, but I get requests. People in the space are
Evan Harris:
interested in exactly this, so there is some awareness from
Evan Harris:
those companies that this is going to be important for
Evan Harris:
schools.
Hiram Cuevas:
The latest lesson that I sent to my faculty was on
Hiram Cuevas:
AI voice cloning, that very issue, and it came on the heels
Hiram Cuevas:
of a phishing attack at our school, where one of our
Hiram Cuevas:
students was inadvertently fished, and it just started to
Hiram Cuevas:
spread like wildfire across our domain, so it was just an
Hiram Cuevas:
excellent opportunity to revisit, do the PSA, which Bill
Hiram Cuevas:
and I do frequently at our schools, but it reinforced for
Hiram Cuevas:
me, especially after your talk, the next level is my faculty has
Hiram Cuevas:
become quite savvy now at identifying phishing schemes, or
Hiram Cuevas:
they send them to me. My students are not, and so I need
Hiram Cuevas:
to take it down to that next level now. They may be able to
Hiram Cuevas:
spot AI fakes and whatnot, but sometimes we think they know
Hiram Cuevas:
more than they really do, and there's that next level of
Hiram Cuevas:
education from a life skill approach, because the way we
Hiram Cuevas:
approach it at St. Chris, and I didn't think you at MKA, it's
Hiram Cuevas:
your professional world and your personal world, they overlap,
Hiram Cuevas:
and we're going to teach you skills that encompasses both of
Hiram Cuevas:
those worlds.
Evan Harris:
Yeah, it's interesting how many
Evan Harris:
cybersecurity skills have overlapped with things like
Evan Harris:
social emotional learning, like I mentioned, the sort of
Evan Harris:
emotional piece, like monitoring your own emotional response,
Evan Harris:
that's something that could be taught in that sort of self
Evan Harris:
realm, but it also has security implications and safety
Evan Harris:
implications.
Hiram Cuevas:
Absolutely,
Evan Harris:
as a parent, creating a judgment-free culture
Evan Harris:
in the home, like learning how to listen and create that
Evan Harris:
culture where a child can come forward and know they're
Evan Harris:
supported. A lot of this is revolves around soft skills,
Evan Harris:
like the overlap between cybersecurity, child safety, and
Evan Harris:
some of these softer things that we might not associate, they
Evan Harris:
really matter.
Christina Lewellen:
So, yeah, what's really interesting about
Christina Lewellen:
this part of the conversation is we wish there was a tech
Christina Lewellen:
solution. We wish that there could just be a one size fits
Christina Lewellen:
all, gonna catch all this stuff, and what you're saying is it's a
Christina Lewellen:
human retraining.
Evan Harris:
Yeah, it has to be something that lives on. I worry
Evan Harris:
about a school that's, you know, oh, 2027 school year, that's
Evan Harris:
when we talked about deep fakes, and then we kind of just forgot
Evan Harris:
about it. So, it has to live in advisory programming, media
Evan Harris:
literacy, consent education, orientation, new orientation for
Evan Harris:
staff, because in many cases an attacker will attack the newest
Evan Harris:
person on your staff, because they're the person that doesn't
Evan Harris:
know how things normally operate, and Lord knows,
Evan Harris:
independent schools, we love to announce every time we hire
Evan Harris:
someone new, we tell you the name of their dog and their
Evan Harris:
hobbies, we make it
Christina Lewellen:
very easy to do,
Evan Harris:
and so specifically kind of new orientation, and
Evan Harris:
specifically for those departments that have access to
Evan Harris:
really sensitive data, or that can do a financial transaction
Evan Harris:
on behalf of the school, they're the ones that really need that
Evan Harris:
code word and that training,
Bill Stites:
I wrote down two things when you were speaking.
Bill Stites:
One had to do with your digital footprint, and how we've talked
Bill Stites:
to students about that, and you mentioned that from a takedown
Bill Stites:
perspective. I actually want to go in a slightly different
Bill Stites:
direction, because you also mentioned something with regard
Bill Stites:
to what schools should be thinking about and doing with
Bill Stites:
regard to the amount of materials and the types of
Bill Stites:
materials that they're putting online, and what they should be
Bill Stites:
scrubbing off, some of the metadata, some of the other
Bill Stites:
things I'd like you to address what I'll call a balance issue,
Bill Stites:
because I'll give you two quick examples. One, my oldest son was
Bill Stites:
a high school athlete, we talked a lot about him trying to get
Bill Stites:
recruited, and we have students that are in the fine arts and
Bill Stites:
doing other things, so they want to build a profile, because that
Bill Stites:
profile is what they can then point to. So the athletic
Bill Stites:
department posting the picture and talking about what's going
Bill Stites:
on, the theater department posting the picture and talking
Bill Stites:
about what's going on, that builds a social profile that
Bill Stites:
helps in terms of placement and all these other things. But from
Bill Stites:
what it sounded like you're saying, and I want to put words
Bill Stites:
in your mouth, that could be a hindrance. The other piece of it
Bill Stites:
has to do with, and I remember years ago I used to work with a
Bill Stites:
group called Ed Social Media, and we talked about how you
Bill Stites:
build your brand and how you get the SEO to drive to your sites,
Bill Stites:
and you talked about scrubbing the metadata out, which was like
Bill Stites:
a key indicator for building SEO, you talked about removing
Bill Stites:
content, which you want more content, so that it builds a
Bill Stites:
larger footprint. How do you talk to students? How do you
Bill Stites:
talk to schools about the balance between positive
Bill Stites:
exposure and the safety issues that are now part and parcel of
Bill Stites:
what we need to deal with?
Evan Harris:
Yeah, so it's an impossible situation that we've
Evan Harris:
been put in. I think if you imagine a spectrum of responses
Evan Harris:
to this, on one end being just complete business as usual, and
Evan Harris:
another end being like lock everything down post never, most
Evan Harris:
schools are going to have to figure out sort of what that
Evan Harris:
middle road looks like, and so there's probably no answer to
Evan Harris:
this that's totally satisfying, but I think looking at 678
Evan Harris:
different small things that can be done to sort of mitigate some
Evan Harris:
of the risk or to create a bit of friction for someone that
Evan Harris:
wants to attack, like, does that photo have to be in high
Evan Harris:
resolution? Does it have to have save image as automatically,
Evan Harris:
like enabled? Can more things be behind the password protected
Evan Harris:
wall? Could we focus more on impact? So, for example, if I'm
Evan Harris:
a star debater, does it have to be a photo of me debating, or
Evan Harris:
could it be a photo of my trophy, focusing more on the
Evan Harris:
impact and the work rather than just the smiling face? Even if
Evan Harris:
it is a photo of me, does it have to be my full body, or my,
Evan Harris:
you know, what I mean, or could the angles be different,
Evan Harris:
sunsetting old content, like I'd mentioned, right? So, something
Evan Harris:
from three years ago, the head of school speaking, welcoming
Evan Harris:
kids back from Covid, that might not still need to be there.
Evan Harris:
Another thing I like to do, if you're putting your voice out in
Evan Harris:
the world, consider putting a bed of music underneath. Using
Evan Harris:
AI, it's pretty easy to separate that out if someone is really
Evan Harris:
determined to get that sample, but it adds another layer of
Evan Harris:
friction for someone who wants that clean vocal sample. And so,
Evan Harris:
again, there's no one single thing that really makes
Evan Harris:
everybody safe, but I think introducing a bunch of these
Evan Harris:
little friction points and thinking more about like what
Evan Harris:
gets posted and what doesn't is important, but to your point
Evan Harris:
about like kids growing up in the world they are and like
Evan Harris:
wanting to like promote themselves, that's just a
Evan Harris:
reality that's not going anywhere soon, so that's hard to
Evan Harris:
negotiate
Hiram Cuevas:
the analog version of this, and I think parents
Hiram Cuevas:
made a behavioral shift was with the backpacks, putting their
Hiram Cuevas:
children's names on their backs, and as the child be walking down
Hiram Cuevas:
the street, anybody now knows, hey, so and so, and we're not
Hiram Cuevas:
having to retrain our parents and our schools about the
Hiram Cuevas:
backpack, yeah, you know, it's
Christina Lewellen:
a complicated backpack,
Hiram Cuevas:
right,
Bill Stites:
it's been interesting too, because I think
Bill Stites:
so much of the focus we've had as schools has been on AI's
Bill Stites:
impact in the classroom, and largely a lot of what we're
Bill Stites:
touching on is some of the operational considerations, the
Bill Stites:
conversations you need to have with your athletic departments,
Bill Stites:
with your communications department, with your alumni
Bill Stites:
office, all of those different areas, because I've been pushing
Bill Stites:
our school to have more of those conversations, and they're
Bill Stites:
slowly coming around, but so much of that early focus was on
Bill Stites:
the impact of AI. I mean, we've had countless speakers on the
Bill Stites:
podcast about that, and that's where that focus has been, but
Bill Stites:
you're really clearly bringing to light a lot of these types of
Bill Stites:
issues as it relates to the operational aspects of these
Bill Stites:
things, that we need to take a much deeper and harder look at,
Evan Harris:
and student safety, too. A lot of AI risks,
Evan Harris:
particularly data privacy risks, are very abstract for people to
Evan Harris:
sort of make concrete and to feel real for people. It's
Evan Harris:
really hard to get people who don't care about privacy to care
Evan Harris:
about it, because it doesn't feel concrete to them. And the
Evan Harris:
other area where I think I actually have an advantage in
Evan Harris:
talking about this stuff is that a lot of AI right now feels like
Evan Harris:
we're trying to speculate about what's coming. It's, you know,
Evan Harris:
are we in this huge hype bubble or do we have AGI by 2028 Are
Evan Harris:
kids going to be at a disadvantage because they use
Evan Harris:
too much AI or not enough or not the right way? You have faculty
Evan Harris:
on all sides of this, super emotionally charged with deep
Evan Harris:
fakes, I find a lot more consensus that it's actually
Evan Harris:
okay. This is here today, I can show you headlines from last
Evan Harris:
week. The harms are very, very real. We're getting best
Evan Harris:
practices on a couple of different fronts, and there's
Evan Harris:
not a well, I'm actually pro deep fake kind of sentiment out
Evan Harris:
there in schools, and so it's just not creating the sort of
Evan Harris:
arguments and dysfunction that a lot of AI conversations have had
Evan Harris:
in schools for last few years.
Christina Lewellen:
It's interesting, you can kind of
Christina Lewellen:
like get some alignment around it.
Evan Harris:
Finally, the
Bill Stites:
only pro statement I heard was when you were
Bill Stites:
showing the adoption dog video. Oh yeah, and Eric Heilman looked
Bill Stites:
over me, he's like, 'I'll take all of that, like I don't care
Bill Stites:
whether deep pic or not the emotional toy gotta love the
Christina Lewellen:
dog.
Bill Stites:
Exactly, I
Christina Lewellen:
often say that I oversimplify Atlas'
Christina Lewellen:
stance on AI when I've been out and about talking to schools
Christina Lewellen:
that were bullish on the opportunity of AI, but really
Christina Lewellen:
bearish on the privacy concerns. What about you? How do you feel
Christina Lewellen:
about AI in general? You speak about these kind of negative
Christina Lewellen:
dark holes that we're dealing with and wrestling with with
Christina Lewellen:
deep fakes, but how do you personally. Feel about AI right
Christina Lewellen:
now,
Evan Harris:
so in a very nerdy way, and maybe because of that
Evan Harris:
Klingenstein background, where they have us do this exercise
Evan Harris:
where we plot out risks in schools in different quadrants,
Evan Harris:
and I think about all the time what's high likelihood, high
Evan Harris:
impact, right? That's where my focus is drawn most to some of
Evan Harris:
these deep fake risks, because they're so devastating, and
Evan Harris:
we've seen kids self-harm. The line between sort of online
Evan Harris:
harms and real-world harms is really blurry for a kid. Those
Evan Harris:
are actually integrated worlds for a kid, and so that tends to
Evan Harris:
be where I focus more, but I'm able to sort of parse that from
Evan Harris:
and separate it from how I feel about large language models day
Evan Harris:
to day. I run a small language model off my client device, and
Evan Harris:
I'm very upset about Cloud 4.7 I'm fully bought in on all the
Evan Harris:
stuff. I love building cloud skills and agentic workflows,
Evan Harris:
and so I think I have a little bit of cognitive dissonance,
Evan Harris:
maybe, about the technology, where it's pretty easy for me to
Evan Harris:
say, this is so exciting, I'll try any new tool on this end,
Evan Harris:
and on the other end, okay, these are like real things that
Evan Harris:
really matter for very vulnerable populations outside
Evan Harris:
of nursing homes and hospitals. No one deals with more
Evan Harris:
vulnerable populations than schools do, and so, especially
Evan Harris:
deep fake sexual abuse, where the laws have changed, but our
Evan Harris:
training and policies largely haven't. Every school has to
Evan Harris:
take that seriously this year. And so, I think I probably put
Evan Harris:
those things in different buckets.
Hiram Cuevas:
So, you mentioned the laws have changed,
Hiram Cuevas:
specifically, like I know in trying to help our students
Hiram Cuevas:
understand not to send pornographic images, those are
Hiram Cuevas:
now listed as classics felonies in Virginia. Is there a similar
Hiram Cuevas:
type of statute for a deep fake,
Evan Harris:
so it gets into sort of complicated territory,
Evan Harris:
because most states have special statutes for sexting, and those
Evan Harris:
are consensually sent images, but that's still a mandatory
Evan Harris:
reporting requirement for a school, they have to report
Evan Harris:
that, even if it's consensual, because that's like CSAM for the
Evan Harris:
entire country, it is now a federal crime to publish or
Evan Harris:
threaten to publish a real or deep fake non-consensual
Evan Harris:
intimate image, and states can add on top of that, they can't
Evan Harris:
subtract from it. So, in my state of Texas, for example,
Evan Harris:
illegal to just create one of these images, even if it stays
Evan Harris:
on your phone or laptop, and that really matters, because I
Evan Harris:
get a lot of calls now, at least once a week, I get a call from
Evan Harris:
the head of school where this is happening, and very often we
Evan Harris:
know that this kid has this on their phone, they've shown it to
Evan Harris:
someone, maybe, but they haven't sent it out, and so they've kind
Evan Harris:
of tiptoed right up to the line of this legal gray area, and so
Evan Harris:
in a state like Texas, that kid has already committed a crime,
Evan Harris:
but in another state they've only maybe tiptoed up to the
Evan Harris:
edge of it, and so from a kid's perspective, it's really
Evan Harris:
important they get a message about deterrence, not a sort of
Evan Harris:
scared straight campaign, but a very clear-eyed, sober message
Evan Harris:
about this is really serious, it's not a prank or a joke. This
Evan Harris:
is often marketed to kids as a way to do a prank or a joke, and
Evan Harris:
increasingly this is coming through the form of apps that
Evan Harris:
are marketed as AI girlfriends or AI boyfriends, where kids
Evan Harris:
take a reference photo of, like, their crush from school, upload
Evan Harris:
it, it's now this avatar, and so the world of AI companionship
Evan Harris:
and deep fake abuse is kind of merging, it's that next level of
Evan Harris:
Second Life. Yeah,
Bill Stites:
but it's interesting in that one of the
Bill Stites:
things that you said is the amount of times that this is
Bill Stites:
impacting men as much as it is women. Yeah, and I can think to
Bill Stites:
this past year there are three incidents that I was aware of,
Bill Stites:
some of which I was involved in. One was with a female student,
Bill Stites:
and two were with males, and I thought that was very, very
Bill Stites:
interesting. When you were showing the interview with the
Bill Stites:
girl, I actually thought it was because one of them was related
Bill Stites:
to an incident that happened at my wife's school that made
Bill Stites:
national news as well, and it was just interesting, just the
Bill Stites:
way those things happen, the way they're covered, the way they're
Bill Stites:
handled, and the school's reaction to it, which goes back
Bill Stites:
to my forensic piece, and I think you mentioned updating
Bill Stites:
policy around this. This is, I think, one of those areas where
Bill Stites:
we need to have a deep rethink on what that looks like.
Evan Harris:
It's interesting, and this is maybe just sort of
Evan Harris:
anecdotal, because I'm only in the first few years of this
Evan Harris:
work, but I hear from girls' schools much more often than I
Evan Harris:
hear from boys' schools, with some exceptions. Browning, for
Evan Harris:
example, in New York has been fantastic, but I'm more likely
Evan Harris:
to hear from a Harpeth Hall or a Roland Park or Marlboro school,
Evan Harris:
and I can understand why, to some extent, but I think the boy
Evan Harris:
schools have work to do here. There's some stuff that lives
Evan Harris:
upstream of this. This is not an isolated problem happening in a
Evan Harris:
vacuum. The uptick in the youth to youth sex abuse category
Evan Harris:
within independent schools, it's doubled in the last 10 years,
Evan Harris:
according to Presidium. The sextortion rate doubling year
Evan Harris:
over year, that the majority of those victims are boys. The
Evan Harris:
majority of the perpetrators for deep fake sexual abuse? Are
Evan Harris:
boys, and so there's a deterrence message that has to
Evan Harris:
happen there. So one of my goals for this upcoming school year is
Evan Harris:
just to get in touch with more boys schools, because I think
Evan Harris:
they've got work to do here too. It's not just the girl schools.
Christina Lewellen:
There you go, you heard it here on the pod
Christina Lewellen:
boys schools. Let's get Evan out on the road and. Actually, that
Christina Lewellen:
brings me to where I'd like to kind of land this conversation.
Christina Lewellen:
I know you have other obligations, and you are not off
Christina Lewellen:
duty yet at this Atlas conference. You have more to do.
Christina Lewellen:
One of my final questions is, in the realm of why you're here.
Christina Lewellen:
We're so lucky, so fortunate to have gotten onto your schedule.
Christina Lewellen:
I thought that this morning's keynote was fantastic. You're
Christina Lewellen:
here at Atlas, talking to tech leaders. I'm curious, why you
Christina Lewellen:
prioritize being here with us. Why is this an audience that you
Christina Lewellen:
wanted to reach?
Evan Harris:
Yeah, I think technology leaders are the
Evan Harris:
natural messenger for this message, and I was actually
Evan Harris:
thinking about that as I was on stage. I thought, man, if
Evan Harris:
there's a full room, I think 500 600 people in this room, and if
Evan Harris:
just 10 of them, which is hopefully way under counting it.
Evan Harris:
Just 10 of them come back, and 10 more schools get a policy and
Evan Harris:
a plan that is 1000s of kids that will have protections that
Evan Harris:
so many other kids never had. And this very quickly transfers,
Evan Harris:
like I said, from kind of an online set of harms to physical
Evan Harris:
harm. This has impacts on a kid that are social, emotional,
Evan Harris:
academic, reputational turns their whole world upside down.
Evan Harris:
It can be life altering, and so I hope for a ripple effect out
Evan Harris:
of this room, because there's just so many smart, influential
Evan Harris:
people who will, I hope, take this message back to their
Evan Harris:
schools, and that the independent school world as a
Evan Harris:
whole is now more in a position to kind of lead the nation, I
Evan Harris:
think we're only 2% of kids in America go to independent
Evan Harris:
schools, something in that neighborhood, but we can move
Evan Harris:
faster than a lot of the public schools can that have obviously
Evan Harris:
the red tape, and it's, it's just a whole different set of
Evan Harris:
concerns, and so I think we are uniquely situated to lead on
Evan Harris:
this issue nationally and internationally, and I think
Evan Harris:
that starts in a room like this.
Christina Lewellen:
Evan Harris, thank you so much for joining
Christina Lewellen:
us, and thanks for being on the pod. We appreciate you making
Christina Lewellen:
the time.
Evan Harris:
Cool, thanks for having me.
Peter Frank:
This has been Talking Technology with Atlas,
Peter Frank:
produced by the Association of Technology Leaders in
Peter Frank:
Independent Schools. For more information about Atlas and
Peter Frank:
Atlas membership, please visit the atlas.org If you enjoyed
Peter Frank:
this discussion, please subscribe, leave a review, and
Peter Frank:
share this podcast with your colleagues in the Independent
Peter Frank:
School community. Thank you for listening.
Christina Lewellen:
Thank.
