Engineering In-House Solutions and Cultivating Tech Talent Pipelines with Dr. Jonathan King
Presented by:
Dr. Jonathan King joins the podcast to discuss Riverdale Country School's unique approach to technology leadership. He explains the benefits of an engineering-focused mindset, the strategic inclusion of data teams within IT, and a long-term commitment to building talent pipelines that prepare the next generation of technology directors for the community.
Transcript
Peter Frank:
Matt, welcome to Talking technology with ATLIS,
Peter Frank:
the show that plugs you into the important topics and trends for
Peter Frank:
technology leaders all through a unique Independent School lens.
Peter Frank:
We'll hear stories from technology directors and other
Peter Frank:
special guests from the Independent School community,
Peter Frank:
and provide you with focused learning and deep dive topics.
Peter Frank:
And now please welcome your host, Christina Lewellen,
Christina Lewellen:
Hello everyone, and welcome back to
Christina Lewellen:
talking technology with ATLIS. I'm Christina Lewellen, the
Christina Lewellen:
President and CEO of the Association of technology
Christina Lewellen:
leaders in independent schools.
Bill Stites:
And I'm Bill Stites, the Director of
Bill Stites:
Technology at Montclair Kimberly Academy in Montclair, New
Bill Stites:
Jersey, and
Hiram Cuevas:
I'm Hiram Cuevas, the Director of Information
Hiram Cuevas:
Systems and Academic Technology at St Christopher school in
Hiram Cuevas:
Richmond, Virginia.
Christina Lewellen:
Hello, gentlemen. How are you this
Christina Lewellen:
morning? Doing well, got a little bit of spring in the air
Christina Lewellen:
here, yes, and the spring travel schedule in the Independent
Christina Lewellen:
School Association community is in full force. Indeed, Hiram, I
Christina Lewellen:
don't know if you heard about this, but last week, I was in
Christina Lewellen:
New Jersey at the NJ AIS advancement Summit, and I got
Christina Lewellen:
picked up and taken for drinks by none other than Mr. And Mrs.
Christina Lewellen:
Stites.
Hiram Cuevas:
Nice. He got to meet Brooke. Yeah, I actually
Hiram Cuevas:
think I've met
Christina Lewellen:
Brooke when we were in New Jersey doing the
Christina Lewellen:
item writing for the exam. So I hadn't met Brooke before. I did
Christina Lewellen:
know she existed. I've hugged her before, but I got to hug her
Christina Lewellen:
again. It was great to hang out with her, and it was so
Christina Lewellen:
adorable, because she apparently has quite a reputation for
Christina Lewellen:
falling asleep at public events, and that poor woman, Bill and I
Christina Lewellen:
are having adult beverages at this pub, and she's like, I'll
Christina Lewellen:
have a hot tea. It was the cutest.
Bill Stites:
It was quite the evening. I will tell you, I'll
Bill Stites:
set it up, though, because we were on an ATLIS call Christina
Bill Stites:
comes on the thing. And I'm like, wait a minute. I recognize
Bill Stites:
that that background. And then I see one of my colleagues walking
Bill Stites:
by, and then I see her name tag, and I'm like, why didn't you let
Bill Stites:
me know you were here? I'm like, you were right down the block.
Bill Stites:
I'm like, we could make this work, and then we made it all
Bill Stites:
work, and it all came together. Came together beautifully. But I
Bill Stites:
will share something with you, and Christina doesn't know this.
Bill Stites:
Oh, the next day, Brooke and I were talking, and I was like,
Bill Stites:
said, You have a good time last night. And she's like, Oh my
Bill Stites:
god, yeah, it was so much fun. She seems like somebody who gets
Bill Stites:
stuff done. Oh, there you go. Because Brooke now has like,
Bill Stites:
this laundry list of things that she's now, like, checking off
Bill Stites:
her list that she now needs to do based on one conversation
Bill Stites:
with Miss Lewellen here. So just know that she inspires people to
Bill Stites:
get stuff
Christina Lewellen:
done, women, helping women. That's all I have
Christina Lewellen:
for a while, Bill, believe it or not, Bill was just sitting there
Christina Lewellen:
observing this whole conversation go down, because I
Christina Lewellen:
was like, sir, you just hush a minute. My friend Brooke and I
Christina Lewellen:
have something to talk about, indeed, but we missed you,
Christina Lewellen:
Hiram. We thought about you. And really, I mean, I'm so close to
Christina Lewellen:
you, I really need to just come down to Richmond, and I have
Christina Lewellen:
great friends in Richmond. So here we go. I'm going to go on
Christina Lewellen:
public record before I leave ATLIS, I am driving down to
Christina Lewellen:
Richmond to hang out with Hiram. It'd be great if all of us could
Christina Lewellen:
get together in person, which doesn't happen very often. But
Christina Lewellen:
in the meantime, I'll take you each separately. Maybe that's a
Christina Lewellen:
better approach.
Bill Stites:
Anyhow. Usually is, trust me, I think it is.
Christina Lewellen:
Well today, you guys, we have another
Christina Lewellen:
wonderful guest. I'm super excited about this one, and I
Christina Lewellen:
know that you guys are just drooling to get these questions
Christina Lewellen:
answered, because today we are talking to Dr Jonathan king, and
Christina Lewellen:
he serves as the Chief Information and Technology
Christina Lewellen:
Officer at Riverdale Country School, which is a large pre K
Christina Lewellen:
through 12 Independent School in the Bronx. Dr King, hello
Christina Lewellen:
friend. How are you today? And welcome to the podcast. Hi,
Christina Lewellen:
thank you for having me. I'm doing great, good Jonathan. I am
Christina Lewellen:
from New York, but I'm not from the cool part of New York where
Christina Lewellen:
you are. I am from the snowy part of New York where we're
Christina Lewellen:
crazy about a certain football team. Oh, you're from the North.
Christina Lewellen:
Yeah, I'm from Buffalo,
Jonathan King:
Rochester area. I'm actually originally from
Jonathan King:
Boston, so we were crazy about a certain football team, also as a
Jonathan King:
child. I also used to live in Seattle, so the Super Bowl is a
Jonathan King:
little tricky for me this year.
Christina Lewellen:
Oh, interesting. So did you have a
Christina Lewellen:
favorite? Or were you going to be happy no matter what?
Jonathan King:
I like to make nachos, let's be honest, that
Jonathan King:
was my focus. We made a lot of good food, and then sometimes we
Jonathan King:
watch TV.
Christina Lewellen:
You are already my friend, okay, so let
Christina Lewellen:
me give you a second, Jonathan, to introduce yourself. You come
Christina Lewellen:
from a large school, but we would love to learn a little bit
Christina Lewellen:
about you and about the school you serve. So let us turn the
Christina Lewellen:
mic over to you for a minute.
Jonathan King:
I have been at Riverdale for 22 years and never
Jonathan King:
expected to be here more than a handful. And I'm here because I
Jonathan King:
love this place. We are very fortunate to be this Leafy,
Jonathan King:
grassy oasis in New York City. I remember the first day I walked
Jonathan King:
on this campus. I was like, Wait a minute. You. I don't
Jonathan King:
understand where I've gone. Like, I took the subway, I went
Jonathan King:
all this way north. I thought I was going to be like, in a
Jonathan King:
concrete jungle, and we're on 20 something acres of green grass
Jonathan King:
and beauty, and we have great faculty and great students, and
Jonathan King:
we're trying to do good in the world. That's not a very
Jonathan King:
exciting answer, but that is why I'm here.
Christina Lewellen:
So did you start 22 years ago in tech, or
Christina Lewellen:
were you a teacher, I have a weird history. We kind of all do
Christina Lewellen:
in this space, to be honest, so we're open to that.
Jonathan King:
I actually started working in schools as a
Jonathan King:
kid, and absolutely loved working with kids. I have a
Jonathan King:
family of educators, and I tried really hard to not be an
Jonathan King:
educator, and I knew that that was going to be my future as
Jonathan King:
like my destiny, was working in a school, but I tried not to for
Jonathan King:
a while. So I was a technology consultant, independent. I
Jonathan King:
worked in a lot of different places. I worked in Italy, I
Jonathan King:
worked in Seattle, I worked in New York, and then kind of
Jonathan King:
randomly decided that it was time to settle down, quote,
Jonathan King:
unquote, settle down back when I was around 30 years old, and I
Jonathan King:
was like, you know, I want to work in a school. I took eight
Jonathan King:
years to not do it. I have a PhD in fuzzy logic, which most
Jonathan King:
people say, What the heck is that? And I realized I didn't
Jonathan King:
want to do that thing for the rest of my life. It's a lot of
Jonathan King:
math and computer science, which I like but didn't want to do, is
Jonathan King:
like my future. And ended up in New York on a job, and while I
Jonathan King:
was here living in my brother's apartment, I was like, I kind of
Jonathan King:
like it here. Maybe I'll see what happens if I stick around.
Jonathan King:
I actually tried to get a job as a public school math teacher,
Jonathan King:
and I have a PhD in math, and the public schools rejected me
Jonathan King:
and said I did not have the appropriate credentials to
Jonathan King:
become a teacher in the public school system. And I was like,
Jonathan King:
Well, I guess if I can't do that, I will look at something
Jonathan King:
else. My family has been private school teachers and
Jonathan King:
administrators and heads of school for a long time. I was a
Jonathan King:
public school kid, and I was like, I don't know if I really
Jonathan King:
want to do this. This is a big change. I looked at a few
Jonathan King:
schools. I got a job offer very quickly from Riverdale, and as I
Jonathan King:
said, before I walked on campus, was like, why would I not come
Jonathan King:
here? This is incredible. Figured I'd be there for a few
Jonathan King:
years. I was a computer science teacher and network and systems
Jonathan King:
administrator when I first started, and have stuck around
Jonathan King:
for a very long time.
Christina Lewellen:
So for people who are not familiar with
Christina Lewellen:
Riverdale, can you help us understand the size and scope of
Christina Lewellen:
the school and what kind of families tend to be attracted to
Christina Lewellen:
put their kids there?
Jonathan King:
We are a two campus School in the Bronx.
Jonathan King:
We're in Riverdale. I have three children who all go to
Jonathan King:
Riverdale, and one of them is like, we're not in the Bronx.
Jonathan King:
We're in Riverdale. I was like, well, Riverdale is actually in
Jonathan King:
the Bronx, but it feels very different. So if you have
Jonathan King:
preconceptions about what the Bronx is, I think, come have a
Jonathan King:
look. The Bronx is more interesting than maybe people
Jonathan King:
realize. Anyway, we have two campuses. The Lower School is a
Jonathan King:
about a mile away from the middle of our school. We call
Jonathan King:
them the river and the hill based on being near the river
Jonathan King:
and on top of a hill kind of makes sense. And it's hard to
Jonathan King:
say who we attract exactly my sense, and I'll just say, in
Jonathan King:
full disclosure, my wife also works here. She is the Associate
Jonathan King:
Head of School for admission and enrollment, so she actually is
Jonathan King:
the one who is responsible for helping families choose to come
Jonathan King:
to Riverdale. And so I talk about this a lot. We have a
Jonathan King:
really clear mission. We want to change the world for good. We
Jonathan King:
want to do good in the world. We want to turn out kids who
Jonathan King:
understand how to interact with society and the world and leave
Jonathan King:
it better than they found it. We're not a school where you're
Jonathan King:
going to come and just do Math and Math and Math and Math.
Jonathan King:
We're not just going to drill and kill. We're here to, like,
Jonathan King:
expand your mind, expand your soul, and help you be a better
Jonathan King:
person and contribute to the world. And that's actually what
Jonathan King:
attracted me in the very first place. Like I walked on campus
Jonathan King:
and thought it was physically beautiful, and then I talked to
Jonathan King:
the people I was going to work with, and I learned about the
Jonathan King:
mission that we have, and I was pretty sold,
Hiram Cuevas:
Jonathan, I actually grew up in the Bronx.
Hiram Cuevas:
Oh, nice. It was actually born in Hell's Kitchen in Manhattan.
Hiram Cuevas:
Yeah, shout out to Daredevil. You know, grew up near Fordham
Hiram Cuevas:
Road, and then we actually lived in Co Op City until I was 12. My
Hiram Cuevas:
father was in New York City, Fireman on story Avenue, so I
Hiram Cuevas:
chuckled when you said between the river and the hill, because
Hiram Cuevas:
not many people know that you are really a stone's throw from
Hiram Cuevas:
Van Cortlandt Park. That's right, which is the cross
Hiram Cuevas:
country MKA. I think of the United States as a former runner
Hiram Cuevas:
spent a lot of time at Van Cortlandt Park. It's a beautiful
Hiram Cuevas:
part of the Bronx.
Jonathan King:
Dub Bronx, my wife, Jenna king, was a very
Jonathan King:
accomplished runner, and she ran event Cortland park all the
Jonathan King:
time. We eventually actually moved on to campus. There are a
Jonathan King:
handful of houses here, and so we live on campus. And so I go
Jonathan King:
to Van Cortland park all the time. I walk the dog in Van
Jonathan King:
Cortlandt Park. It's beautiful. We feel incredibly fortunate. We
Jonathan King:
have this massive Park, and I think people don't realize that
Jonathan King:
it even exists. You kind of think of the Bronx as Arthur
Jonathan King:
Avenue and some other things that might feel dangerous. And
Jonathan King:
it is a really varied kind of beautiful borough.
Hiram Cuevas:
And I love the fact that there's a hill there
Hiram Cuevas:
called Cemetery Hill. That's right.
Bill Stites:
Can you give us a little bit more detail in terms
Bill Stites:
of the size of it? How many students, how many faculty?
Bill Stites:
Faculty, staff, and then the size of your staff, because,
Bill Stites:
again, given the size of the school, the size of the people
Bill Stites:
serving the school, and the roles that they hold and what
Bill Stites:
they do, is always of interest.
Jonathan King:
So we have about 1300 students, as most schools,
Jonathan King:
do we add students at sixth grade and ninth grade, so the
Jonathan King:
class sizes get larger as you go throughout the school, it's hard
Jonathan King:
to say the number of staff, because there's the FTE versus
Jonathan King:
the actual individual human beings, but they're around 350
Jonathan King:
FTE, I think, in total. But that includes coaches who are part
Jonathan King:
time. It includes a lot of other positions. I think we have
Jonathan King:
around 250 teachers. One of the things that I think is really
Jonathan King:
special about Riverdale is that the majority of our
Jonathan King:
administrators also teach. I don't, which makes me very sad.
Jonathan King:
About 10 years ago, I stopped teaching because I felt like I
Jonathan King:
was not doing a very good job at it, frankly, and that I would be
Jonathan King:
better for the students if I wasn't their teacher, which was
Jonathan King:
a really awful thing to go through, and I still miss it
Jonathan King:
feel like I'm gonna get teary. So when it comes to the staff of
Jonathan King:
my department. We are very large. We have 16 people in the
Jonathan King:
technology department. But the technology department is not a
Jonathan King:
traditional one. So as you all know, some schools have a tech
Jonathan King:
department, which is basically operations only. Some have
Jonathan King:
academics rolled into it. We have operations, we have
Jonathan King:
academic technology. We also have data so our data team is
Jonathan King:
three people strong. We have an associate director of
Jonathan King:
administrative systems, Jennifer Davenport, who some of you know,
Jonathan King:
and she's great as Bill just gave the thumbs up, and she runs
Jonathan King:
a team that has the registrar. Actually, there are four people
Jonathan King:
on her team. So there's a registrar. We have a data person
Jonathan King:
who handles medical data, and we have our person in charge of
Jonathan King:
student and adult attendance, that's a team of four people,
Jonathan King:
and that would not normally be in a tech department, and it
Jonathan King:
took us a pretty long time to come up with that configuration.
Jonathan King:
There aren't a lot of structures at Riverdale that cross both
Jonathan King:
campuses. And so you know, when you're a multi campus school,
Jonathan King:
you have slightly different set of conditions, like our Lower
Jonathan King:
School is on its own campus, but the middle upper school is on a
Jonathan King:
separate campus, and as a result, we have slightly
Jonathan King:
different structures at each of those places. My operations team
Jonathan King:
has people at both campuses. My academic team has people at both
Jonathan King:
campuses. But the reporting structures can be a little bit
Jonathan King:
weird looking based on local conditions, but we have a very
Jonathan King:
big team, and everyone is busy, there are times I think to
Jonathan King:
myself, like, Are we too large? And I'm actually right now in a
Jonathan King:
moment where I actually want to expand. I'm considering what it
Jonathan King:
looks like to hire a full time programmer right now. My
Jonathan King:
background is computer science. I am a programmer. I write lots
Jonathan King:
of software for the school, but I'm also running a team of 16
Jonathan King:
people, and it is not always easy to be the person on call to
Jonathan King:
fix a software error or a problem when you're also
Jonathan King:
managing such a large group of people. So you know, we actually
Jonathan King:
might get larger in ways that make a lot of sense to me. So
Jonathan King:
I'm
Hiram Cuevas:
curious about that potential expansion. What are
Hiram Cuevas:
the areas that you're seeing would necessitate someone in
Hiram Cuevas:
your role to absorb into your department.
Jonathan King:
There are two places we might be expanding.
Jonathan King:
One is, as I mentioned you guys before we started, we have a
Jonathan King:
byud program at the upper school, and we're considering
Jonathan King:
what it looks like to move that to a one to one program that
Jonathan King:
includes support, right? If we no longer own the machines, if
Jonathan King:
we no longer service the machines, or if we now have to
Jonathan King:
service the machines, we need to have personnel to do it, and we
Jonathan King:
might be okay with the people we have now. We have two level one
Jonathan King:
support folks at the Hill campus, but we're not certain.
Jonathan King:
So we're trying to, like, run some numbers, figure out what
Jonathan King:
breakage rates look like, what does return rates look like, and
Jonathan King:
all of that. So we're trying to figure out what that might look
Jonathan King:
like. Also, there's, you know, financial component to do, we
Jonathan King:
start buying all these machines that we give to the kids, so
Jonathan King:
we're trying to work through all of that, and then part of it
Jonathan King:
becomes staffing. The other piece is what I mentioned
Jonathan King:
before, which is programming. And I'm sure we'll talk about AI
Jonathan King:
in depth at some point, but I'll just say AI is incredible at
Jonathan King:
creating programs, but you still need a human being who
Jonathan King:
understands what's going on. And right now, I'm that person. I
Jonathan King:
have a few people on my staff who are actually pretty good at
Jonathan King:
this, but it's not their focus, like they have other
Jonathan King:
responsibilities. I can't have them writing software. And for a
Jonathan King:
long time, the thing that I prided myself on was creating
Jonathan King:
the glue that brought all of our systems together, that moved
Jonathan King:
data from place A to place B. Many of you are school Cal
Jonathan King:
customers that lets you bring your Veracross calendar into
Jonathan King:
Google. And I think now Microsoft and I actually built a
Jonathan King:
version of that and worked with Aaron and gave him all of my
Jonathan King:
code and said, Please make this product so I can buy it from
Jonathan King:
you, because I can't be the one who does this anymore for the
Jonathan King:
school. It just takes up too much time. And so I'm pretty
Jonathan King:
good at these things, but can't do them all myself. And so I see
Jonathan King:
a long list of places that AI can actually help a person on
Jonathan King:
staff make really useful tools. One of my people, I met with him
Jonathan King:
this morning. We're moving from one LMS to another. I don't
Jonathan King:
think I want to name it right now in this way, but part of
Jonathan King:
that is we want to give people a way to view their data. From the
Jonathan King:
current LMS. And he this is kind of an incredible story, I think,
Jonathan King:
on a plane last weekend, on only his phone, he built, using AI
Jonathan King:
and GitHub, a program, a web service that will allow you to
Jonathan King:
upload a common cartridge format from your LMS, and you have a
Jonathan King:
full viewer that shows you all of your content from your class
Jonathan King:
that would allow you to copy and paste it into another system to
Jonathan King:
aid in migration. You know, five years ago, that just wouldn't
Jonathan King:
have happened, right? And if I needed that thing, I would have
Jonathan King:
been like, sorry, guys, we're just not going to do that. Or I
Jonathan King:
would have put an incredible amount of my own time into
Jonathan King:
building it. He did it on like, a three hour plane ride. It's
Jonathan King:
pretty incredible. Yeah, I was kind of blown away. And he's
Jonathan King:
also a programmer in his background, he's one of our
Jonathan King:
Academic Technology Specialist technology specialists, and he's
Jonathan King:
amazing, and if he spent all this time making tools, he
Jonathan King:
wouldn't do the rest of his job, because there are a million
Jonathan King:
tools we all needed exactly.
Christina Lewellen:
I do want to come back to the AI topic, but I
Christina Lewellen:
am interested, given the size of your team and especially your
Christina Lewellen:
background, how do you find these people, and do you look
Christina Lewellen:
for kind of the best in class, technology people, or is it just
Christina Lewellen:
depends on the role? Like, how do you think about hiring?
Jonathan King:
Hiring is the most important thing we do as a
Jonathan King:
school. There are two things. My wife would probably say,
Jonathan King:
bringing the students in admissions might be the most
Jonathan King:
important thing. I think that both of those have equal
Jonathan King:
importance. The thing to me is that if you don't hire good
Jonathan King:
people, then you're stuck with mediocre people. And that can be
Jonathan King:
fine, and you can be stuck trying to hire, and you can get
Jonathan King:
someone who feels mediocre in some way, who turns out to be
Jonathan King:
spectacular, or who grows into a role that is, like, really
Jonathan King:
impressive. I try really hard to hire great from the very
Jonathan King:
beginning, and it's the hardest thing that I do. And every year
Jonathan King:
I don't have to hire, I breathe a sigh of relief. Finding good
Jonathan King:
candidates can be really challenging. Working the various
Jonathan King:
networks that we all have sometimes bears amazing fruit,
Jonathan King:
sometimes not. And I'll tell you that my position on this is that
Jonathan King:
I won't hire if I'm not comfortable hiring. And so we
Jonathan King:
have run sometimes a whole year without filling a position
Jonathan King:
because I want to hire the right person. I have a very high
Jonathan King:
personal capacity, so when we can't hire someone, I do their
Jonathan King:
job and I do their job until we hire someone. That's great, the
Jonathan King:
academic technology person I mentioned who made this program
Jonathan King:
on an airplane. I hired him in like, November, because I
Jonathan King:
couldn't get the person I wanted. I couldn't get the
Jonathan King:
alternate person I wanted. And then I was like, I'm just going
Jonathan King:
to wait. And our team understands that waiting for the
Jonathan King:
right person is better than hiring the wrong person, and so
Jonathan King:
no one is, at least to me in my face, begrudging the fact that
Jonathan King:
sometimes we go a long while between hires. Another example
Jonathan King:
of that, I think I waited almost an entire year to hire our
Jonathan King:
database administrator, and that was because I never found
Jonathan King:
someone I thought could really come in and understand the
Jonathan King:
complexity of what we are and what we do, and do it really
Jonathan King:
well. I waited and waited and waited and waited and waited,
Jonathan King:
and then the person said, You know what? Okay, I'm ready to
Jonathan King:
come work at Riverdale. And then we made a deal, and I'm
Jonathan King:
incredibly thrilled that she's here, because she's doing all
Jonathan King:
the things that I wanted her to do that I was doing myself for
Jonathan King:
years, it freed me up. So hiring couldn't be more important, is
Jonathan King:
the way I view it.
Bill Stites:
I think it speaks a lot to the school to be able to
Bill Stites:
hold on to a position without having it filled and knowing
Bill Stites:
that this is something that we need. Because I think a lot of
Bill Stites:
times when schools see somebody else stepping in being able to
Bill Stites:
do that job, they're like, All right, well, then maybe we don't
Bill Stites:
need to hire this person. You know? Maybe we can handle this
Bill Stites:
with what we have. And often that's not the case. They don't
Bill Stites:
see what goes into it. They don't necessarily see what's
Bill Stites:
missing. So I think that speaks very highly of what Riverdale
Bill Stites:
values, not only what you value, but the school values, in terms
Bill Stites:
of bringing that right person on I do want to ask a question
Bill Stites:
about the programmer that you mentioned hiring one of the
Bill Stites:
things that we continue to spend a lot of time on, I know I've
Bill Stites:
talked to Jen about this, is around data and moving data. You
Bill Stites:
talked about it and mentioned it earlier, is what you see that
Bill Stites:
position being one that is kind of extending that ability to
Bill Stites:
connect systems and their data. Or are you looking for somebody
Bill Stites:
to actually build an application you use the school Cal example,
Bill Stites:
and thank you very much, proud school Cal user here in terms of
Bill Stites:
what we do. But are you looking to start developing at that
Bill Stites:
level, or is it more programming to let your systems play in the
Bill Stites:
sandbox more nicely than they might do at this point. And is
Bill Stites:
that what you're looking for?
Jonathan King:
I want to do both. So a good example is that
Jonathan King:
I recently made the very terrible decision to produce a
Jonathan King:
system within App sheet, Google's appsheet, which turns
Jonathan King:
out, is not available to students under 18. But I did not
Jonathan King:
know that until I found the very, very buried tech note in
Jonathan King:
their help documentation. So I built a thing that took a ton of
Jonathan King:
data out of Veracross. It took a mapping of all of our courses,
Jonathan King:
which me and a. Registrar built that shows how every course
Jonathan King:
relates to every other course at the school, and built a tool
Jonathan King:
that allows advisors and students to go through and
Jonathan King:
understand all the classes they've taken at Riverdale. They
Jonathan King:
can see all the possible classes for next year based on classes
Jonathan King:
they've taken this year, and make a request system. They can
Jonathan King:
order them. They can say which their priorities. They can group
Jonathan King:
them together, and it's kind of awesome, and yet kids can't use
Jonathan King:
it. And the whole point was for kids to be able to use it. And
Jonathan King:
the only reason I did that is because I didn't have the
Jonathan King:
capacity, personally or in my staff, to produce that in house
Jonathan King:
experience in our own ecosystem. So I picked appsheet as the
Jonathan King:
thing that I use as the platform. And what I want is
Jonathan King:
someone who can come in and actually say, All right, here is
Jonathan King:
your massive AI prompt. What you want this whole program to do?
Jonathan King:
They understand enough that programming to then create it,
Jonathan King:
to host it, to run it, to give it the care and feeding that it
Jonathan King:
needs to serve the school, we have a ton of student projects
Jonathan King:
that are good, but not maintained. And I'm sure some of
Jonathan King:
you have seen this as well, where your students do something
Jonathan King:
that's actually really useful to school, like we have a very
Jonathan King:
thoughtful computer science department. Their capstone
Jonathan King:
project in their senior year is one where the kids go try to
Jonathan King:
find a real world problem and solve it. Often, that real world
Jonathan King:
problem is a river del problem. They solve it, then they
Jonathan King:
graduate, and then you're like, now what I want to have some
Jonathan King:
capacity at the school to actually have the answer to now
Jonathan King:
what be like? We're going to incorporate this now into our
Jonathan King:
standard practice, and we're going to maintain it. And right
Jonathan King:
now, you know, we have kids who graduated, who have been gone
Jonathan King:
for years, who are like, do you want me to make some changes to
Jonathan King:
the code? I was like, That's very nice of you, but you have
Jonathan King:
moved on in your life, and we don't want to put an anchor on
Jonathan King:
you to be back here. So like, that's one thing, and then Bill
Jonathan King:
the other part is the glue is incredibly important. All of us
Jonathan King:
know that we have all these different systems, and they
Jonathan King:
don't all talk to each other. And as much as vendors have come
Jonathan King:
together to make some common formats, other ones just don't
Jonathan King:
exist. There is no common format for a schedule that everyone
Jonathan King:
understands that says when a class actually meets. And so
Jonathan King:
that's a real problem. One of my real world problems I want to
Jonathan King:
solve right now is how to get revna, which we were customer
Jonathan King:
number two for, to actually know our schedules so they can tell
Jonathan King:
us. These are the kids who should be in front of you right
Jonathan King:
now. And so these are things that I, as a programmer from my
Jonathan King:
background, want to solve like you wouldn't believe, like, I
Jonathan King:
want to dig my teeth into all these things, but that's not my
Jonathan King:
job anymore. So we need that capacity to be here. Somehow, I
Jonathan King:
got asked last week, like, Well, why don't you just hire a
Jonathan King:
consultant or a part time programmer or, like, fill in the
Jonathan King:
blank for some non full time person. I was like, there is an
Jonathan King:
incredible benefit that we all see from someone who understands
Jonathan King:
the culture that we operate in and hiring someone who might be
Jonathan King:
low cost, who might be overseas, who might be, you know, fill in
Jonathan King:
the blank, someone who's just not of your school, I think,
Jonathan King:
introduces a whole set of challenges that makes that
Jonathan King:
harder to do. And I like the notion I'm an in house kind of
Jonathan King:
guy. I have only recently out housed things. That's a terrible
Jonathan King:
term, but I've only recently moved some things out of the
Jonathan King:
house because of staffing issues. If anyone out there is
Jonathan King:
an incredible network engineer, call me the money that we offer
Jonathan King:
for positions that we have can be not as good as industry, and
Jonathan King:
it becomes harder and harder to fill seats with really good
Jonathan King:
people who are willing to work here. Like I wanted to be in
Jonathan King:
education. I wanted to work in a school, and I knew that from
Jonathan King:
when I was a kid, my family knew that from when I was from when I
Jonathan King:
was a kid, and so I was willing to come to Riverdale and make
Jonathan King:
less money that I would have made anywhere else, because I
Jonathan King:
felt the call. That's hard to instill in people. I want to
Jonathan King:
find a programmer who wants to be here, and that's a real
Jonathan King:
challenge. And I also need to get my leadership to agree to
Jonathan King:
let me hire a programmer. So if they listen to this, let me
Jonathan King:
through your programmer,
Christina Lewellen:
there you go. You've laid out your case.
Christina Lewellen:
Well, I think that it lends itself, Jonathan, to a question
Christina Lewellen:
that I had, and you're already sort of touching on it. So I
Christina Lewellen:
want to just call it out. Is that you have a very extensive
Christina Lewellen:
educational and experience background in tech specific
Christina Lewellen:
endeavors computer science, so naturally, that is going to
Christina Lewellen:
impact your approach to serving a school, and you've been
Christina Lewellen:
talking a little bit about that, in that you just want to program
Christina Lewellen:
some solutions. I would imagine that you're probably a dream
Christina Lewellen:
customer for a lot of your platforms, because you're giving
Christina Lewellen:
legitimate solutions to problems that you run up against with
Christina Lewellen:
those platforms. But you know, coming into the education space,
Christina Lewellen:
especially a K 12, I guess I'm curious, is this something that
Christina Lewellen:
you're actively thinking about is how to take solutions that
Christina Lewellen:
would probably make more sense in a corporate setting and
Christina Lewellen:
actually say, no, no, just because we're a K 12 doesn't
Christina Lewellen:
mean that we shouldn't have those same programmed solutions,
Christina Lewellen:
you bring an engineer's brain to the work that you do, which I
Christina Lewellen:
think is sort of rare, so it's less of a question and more of a
Christina Lewellen:
calling out, but I wonder if you think like that, if that
Christina Lewellen:
resonates with you.
Jonathan King:
Very much. So I am an engineer like my actual
Jonathan King:
undergraduate degree was Electrical and Computer
Jonathan King:
Engineering. My PhD is in math and science, or math. In
Jonathan King:
computer science, and my career is based on providing solutions
Jonathan King:
to people with problems, and so I view that as my whole reason
Jonathan King:
to be at Riverdale. I view myself as the efficiency expert,
Jonathan King:
a process person like I want to see problems actually, I can't
Jonathan King:
help but to see problems and then try to think of ways to
Jonathan King:
make them go away. I hate to see someone bashing their head
Jonathan King:
against the wall doing something that could be done in less time
Jonathan King:
with more training. And so I go around here trying to find, I
Jonathan King:
guess, not trying to find it, because it's easy to find things
Jonathan King:
that could be improved everywhere, including within my
Jonathan King:
own team. It's not like we're perfect. That engineer brain
Jonathan King:
almost never turns off, which is sometimes a problem, I'll be
Jonathan King:
honest. Like, sometimes people don't want you to come and solve
Jonathan King:
the problem. They want you to listen to the problem, and they
Jonathan King:
solve it themselves. And so, you know, learning how to coach in
Jonathan King:
that way has been, I think, really important for me, but I
Jonathan King:
can't help myself. I want to fix everything, and I want to glue
Jonathan King:
everything together, and I want to make things more efficient.
Jonathan King:
And I might be a dream customer to some people, but I also know
Jonathan King:
that to others, I'm like, I'm a very vocal critiquer of systems.
Jonathan King:
I'm very happy to give incredibly clear feedback on
Jonathan King:
demo calls. I don't hold back. I try to give all my feedback
Jonathan King:
kindly. I'm not doing it in a mean way. I'm just saying these
Jonathan King:
are things that I see, that I think are important, and if you
Jonathan King:
want to sell that product to me, this is what I need you to do in
Jonathan King:
order for that to happen. And most of the people I work with,
Jonathan King:
I think appreciate that. I'm sure I've rubbed people the
Jonathan King:
wrong way here and there over the years, because being direct
Jonathan King:
is not always kind, despite what the pithy saying is.
Bill Stites:
I think it's funny, because you and I have known one
Bill Stites:
another just given proximity and the common people that we know
Bill Stites:
for a while, but it's funny your name comes up very often when
Bill Stites:
we're talking to the same vendors, oh, you know, you
Bill Stites:
should talk to Jonathan over at Roberto, you know, he's dealing
Bill Stites:
with the same thing, he'll be a great person. You know, Roven
Bill Stites:
was a great example of that school. Cal was another in terms
Bill Stites:
of where those things come up. So I value the fact that you
Bill Stites:
take that to them in that way, because, again, it's how we get
Bill Stites:
at and solve the problems that we're talking about. But one of
Bill Stites:
the problems that I want to ask you a little bit more about,
Bill Stites:
because the idea of just how you built your team and the work
Bill Stites:
that goes on there, you know, we've talked on the podcast
Bill Stites:
about who the next generation of leaders are in developing a
Bill Stites:
pipeline for those people, and you touched on something that
Bill Stites:
I've been thinking about here at MKA, and how we might leverage
Bill Stites:
it a little bit more. But how do you think about, or do you think
Bill Stites:
about, and do you have any success with exposing people?
Bill Stites:
You know, I came from a family of educators, you said the same
Bill Stites:
thing. How do you think about exposing people that you want to
Bill Stites:
bring into a school that are going to solve your problems, to
Bill Stites:
the values and the benefits of working in a school that might
Bill Stites:
otherwise be thinking about that corporate environment, to really
Bill Stites:
sell them on that? What have you done to help that process along?
Bill Stites:
Because I think that's something that we all struggle with. I
Bill Stites:
think there are great people out there. I think there are people
Bill Stites:
that if they saw what life is like working in a school, would
Bill Stites:
look at that difference between the corporate and the school
Bill Stites:
life and say, Actually, this is more how I want to live my life,
Bill Stites:
doing the things that I love. How have you worked through
Bill Stites:
that?
Jonathan King:
I could talk about this forever, but I won't.
Jonathan King:
I'll tell you that at my core, I believe that working education
Jonathan King:
is doing good in the world. And every interview that's a part of
Jonathan King:
that conversation, every conversation I have with people,
Jonathan King:
that's a piece that comes up. We aren't here just to take parents
Jonathan King:
money and then have a kid graduate and go to a school with
Jonathan King:
a good name like that. Isn't why we're here. If you want that,
Jonathan King:
there are other schools people could go to. We want to actually
Jonathan King:
help people be better people, and that works for our staff
Jonathan King:
also. So part of my like spiel, I guess you could say, when I'm
Jonathan King:
doing my hiring, is, obviously I talk about the fact that schools
Jonathan King:
have more vacation time. But it's not just about vacation
Jonathan King:
time, it's about quality of lifetime. I actually have 13
Jonathan King:
year old twins, and one of them was asking me yesterday about
Jonathan King:
jobs, and I just mentioned to him, somewhat casually, you
Jonathan King:
might only get two weeks of vacation a year with your first
Jonathan King:
job. And he just looked at me like, are you crazy? How Does
Jonathan King:
anyone live like that? I'm like, honestly, I feel sorry that
Jonathan King:
people do have to live like that, I recognize economics and
Jonathan King:
the reality, and feel incredibly fortunate that I've landed in a
Jonathan King:
place that values me as a human being and understands it for me
Jonathan King:
to be a high functioning, useful human being in our environment.
Jonathan King:
I need downtime, and so, you know, we have five weeks of
Jonathan King:
downtime in the summer. Officially, unofficially, we
Jonathan King:
actually spread that around the school year because we don't
Jonathan King:
want everyone out at the same time in the summer. Time in the
Jonathan King:
summer bill, it's hard. I feel like people who get it get it,
Jonathan King:
and people who don't don't, and you're asking, like, how do you
Jonathan King:
bridge that gap? And I have failed many times to bridge that
Jonathan King:
gap. People are like, Oh, you just don't offer as much money.
Jonathan King:
And I was like, okay, but we offer a lot more. Sure, and if
Jonathan King:
you're willing to kind of sit with it, maybe those things we
Jonathan King:
offer will sing to you in some way. We offer professional
Jonathan King:
development, a lot of it. I have a very generous PD budget. I
Jonathan King:
don't actually get to spend it all every year. I've argued
Jonathan King:
every year for more and don't manage to spend it all, which
Jonathan King:
makes me a little bit sad. I usually spend it on other
Jonathan King:
people. This was, like, the first year where I'm like, You
Jonathan King:
know what? I think I need to get out there a little bit more.
Jonathan King:
It's part of the reason bit more. It's part of the reason I
Jonathan King:
joined ATLIS. Is part of the reason that I'm on this podcast.
Jonathan King:
I'm like, you know, I think I'm relatively well known and seen
Jonathan King:
here in New York, but I can learn a lot more from more
Jonathan King:
people around the globe and around America. And I was like,
Jonathan King:
I want to have more contact outside of my local sphere. And
Jonathan King:
PD, is, I think, really important a lot of companies
Jonathan King:
don't invest in their people. Riverdale really is willing to
Jonathan King:
invest in their people and help you grow. And one of the most
Jonathan King:
important things to me, and one of the metrics by which I judge
Jonathan King:
of my own success, is this is my little quote, how many directors
Jonathan King:
of Technology have I produced? If I haven't produced any
Jonathan King:
directors of technology, I kind of feel like I've failed. People
Jonathan King:
should view Riverdale as a pipeline. And I tell every
Jonathan King:
person in every interview, I ask them the question, what do you
Jonathan King:
want to do next? And what can I do to help you get to that
Jonathan King:
thing, whether that's internal or external, whatever that is,
Jonathan King:
if you think in 10 years you'll meet Director technology, let's
Jonathan King:
have that conversation now. Don't hide it. I'm not
Jonathan King:
threatened by it like I love my job. I'm doing great at my job.
Jonathan King:
No one's kicking me out of my job, but if they do, are you
Jonathan King:
going to be in the right position to take that job? Let's
Jonathan King:
make sure you have the skill set to it if you want to be a D O T
Jonathan King:
let's have you leave, grow the wings and fly. And I've had a
Jonathan King:
few people who have left income do T's. I've had a few people
Jonathan King:
who are d o t s, who came back and took shelter at Riverdale,
Jonathan King:
as I kind of like, are working out what's next for themselves.
Jonathan King:
And I'm proud of all of those people. We are a pipeline, and
Jonathan King:
that's what you said earlier. Like we really need to make sure
Jonathan King:
that this is not a job for life. This is a step on everyone's
Jonathan King:
individual journey, and I want to make sure that that step is
Jonathan King:
really positive. As much as I said that a year without hiring
Jonathan King:
is a great year. A year hiring because someone left to
Jonathan King:
something better is the best year, right? It means a friend
Jonathan King:
of mine, a person I care about, a person that I tried to help
Jonathan King:
grow
Christina Lewellen:
grew That's really incredible. I respect
Christina Lewellen:
that, because I feel like after I got my MBA, it changed me as a
Christina Lewellen:
leader, and especially from my lens as a female leader, a woman
Christina Lewellen:
operating in some predominantly male environments, it changed me
Christina Lewellen:
in such a way, Jonathan that I became an advocate, if not an
Christina Lewellen:
outright proselytizer, around the value of getting that type
Christina Lewellen:
of professional development for women who had similar career
Christina Lewellen:
goals. So I have to tell you that, like when you just said,
Christina Lewellen:
how many technology directors have I produced? My little heart
Christina Lewellen:
went a flutter, and I could see the guys reaching for the pen
Christina Lewellen:
too. What a lovely fingerprint to leave in our community. The
Christina Lewellen:
reason I brought up the NBA thing is because I believe that
Christina Lewellen:
I might be on either the fifth or sixth woman that I have
Christina Lewellen:
mentored in my career, who is currently pursuing her MBA,
Christina Lewellen:
because she knows me, and that literally fills my soul. So to
Christina Lewellen:
hear you say, how many tech directors have I produced? What
Christina Lewellen:
a delightful sentiment. Thank you for that. That's incredible.
Jonathan King:
Thank you also, because you just mentioned women
Jonathan King:
in leadership, I would also be remiss to not state that we have
Jonathan King:
six of our people on our team are women, which is, I think,
Jonathan King:
smaller than it should be, but I think much higher than the norm.
Hiram Cuevas:
So Jonathan, your ethos is very powerful. I'm
Hiram Cuevas:
wondering, is that part of the secret sauce that Riverdale has
Hiram Cuevas:
across its entire constituency, or is this specific to you? And
Hiram Cuevas:
the reason I asked that question is, I'm curious, where are you
Hiram Cuevas:
on the pipeline?
Jonathan King:
That's a loaded question. I'll start with the
Jonathan King:
first part. So I do think this is a school wide opinion. I
Jonathan King:
think that I feel it more keenly than most. We are a dean based
Jonathan King:
school at the middle upper school, so we have a dean per
Jonathan King:
grade. So you know, grade six, seven and eight are static. They
Jonathan King:
stay with their grades, and grades nine through 12 travel,
Jonathan King:
and that is an incredible pipeline for a school. So if you
Jonathan King:
have a dean who travels nine through 12 and then finishes
Jonathan King:
that deanship, they often, in the olden days, they would
Jonathan King:
repeat. Nowadays they're often finishing and then moving up in
Jonathan King:
the administration, either within the school or elsewhere,
Jonathan King:
and it gives a real opportunity for internal people to grow.
Jonathan King:
Dean's an amazing position. You still get to teach. You get to
Jonathan King:
work with students in a much more focused way. You're working
Jonathan King:
with parents in another way. It's a really good pipeline to
Jonathan King:
become a dean of students or a division head, or, you know, a
Jonathan King:
lot of different things. That's, I think, our main internal
Jonathan King:
pipeline. And I think we all believe very strongly that we
Jonathan King:
want people internally to enter it. And every once in a while,
Jonathan King:
we hire externally. It's not like this is a closed system on
Jonathan King:
a personal level. I don't know what's next for me. I have three
Jonathan King:
children who are at Riverdale. I have twin boys who are in eighth
Jonathan King:
grade. My daughter is in 10th grade, so she's. Seeing the end,
Jonathan King:
which is incredibly terrifying for me as a parent, and exciting
Jonathan King:
all at the same time. And you know, my family talks a lot
Jonathan King:
about like, when the kids graduate, what happens next? I
Jonathan King:
mentioned to you all that I live on campus. I've been here for 22
Jonathan King:
years. My wife and I met, actually the first day of
Jonathan King:
orientation for new faculty in 2004 she was dating someone at
Jonathan King:
the time, so I had to wait a little while for we worked it
Jonathan King:
out. But, you know, we did, and here we are, three kids later,
Jonathan King:
and jobs that we both love, that feel rewarding and great, but at
Jonathan King:
some point my kids are going to graduate, and I tell you, no
Jonathan King:
one's going to bury me in the backyard at reveal country
Jonathan King:
school. So clearly, something is going to come next, and we're in
Jonathan King:
like, hot debate about what that might be. And to go a little
Jonathan King:
more like in the detail, like, there isn't a good pipeline at
Jonathan King:
the top levels of schools. There are better pipelines lower down.
Jonathan King:
And so once you hit a certain level, it's hard for tech
Jonathan King:
directors, which I'm not officially, I'm a Chief
Jonathan King:
Information Technology Officer, but colloquially, I'm a tech
Jonathan King:
director. It's hard for us to move to other positions. Like, I
Jonathan King:
know some folks who become division heads and heads of
Jonathan King:
school, there's a real pipeline for that, but it's small. It's a
Jonathan King:
rare jump. I think that happens. Operations is a more likely
Jonathan King:
place for people to go. In tech, it's a place that I would be
Jonathan King:
pretty comfortable, but you have to go in a way that makes sense.
Jonathan King:
You have to be in a school that supports that type of structure.
Jonathan King:
So, you know, our high leadership is pretty stocked
Jonathan King:
right now, so I don't think there is anywhere for me to
Jonathan King:
literally move at Riverdale, but I'm also not trying to leave
Jonathan King:
Riverdale, so like, I'm fine where I am, but in five years,
Jonathan King:
if we have this conversation again, I will have a very
Jonathan King:
different answer for you as my
Bill Stites:
guest, I have one more pipeline question for you,
Bill Stites:
and I know we're eager to talk about the ever present topic of
Bill Stites:
AI, but with regard to the pipeline, I came To MKA as a
Bill Stites:
student teacher. I wouldn't have known what independent schools
Bill Stites:
were really about when I grew up, independent schools were
Bill Stites:
just the Catholic schools you know, that I grew up with. And I
Bill Stites:
will say that I took inspiration from actually Hiram school for
Bill Stites:
this question, because it's one that I'm pursuing here at MKA is
Bill Stites:
right up the road for me is Montclair State University,
Bill Stites:
which is where I went, which is why I ended up in MKA. But I'm
Bill Stites:
interested in going in and talking to their comp sci
Bill Stites:
departments. They have, you know, a mass people that are
Bill Stites:
working on their cyber security degrees to see if they are
Bill Stites:
interested in doing, like, short term internships at the school.
Bill Stites:
Because when you think about that pipeline, like people
Bill Stites:
coming out of college might not even know that schools, let
Bill Stites:
alone independent schools, are an option. Have you seen anyone?
Bill Stites:
Have you considered going down that road for that pipeline?
Bill Stites:
Because to what you described earlier, you've got to get
Bill Stites:
somebody to apply to sell them on that That's right. I'm trying
Bill Stites:
to think of like, how do we develop this? Like you developed
Bill Stites:
your student teachers back in the day where you might have a
Bill Stites:
placement in a school that was like, Oh, I didn't realize this
Bill Stites:
was here. How do we do that with people that we need to bring in
Bill Stites:
in our fields?
Jonathan King:
So you're talking about outreach, and I think
Jonathan King:
outreach is incredibly important, but also hard to put
Jonathan King:
time into. So the first thing that happens every time we have
Jonathan King:
a position to fill is we're like, where are we going to post
Jonathan King:
this? Like, how are we going to get the word out? How are we
Jonathan King:
going to get the right eyeballs on these postings? In a world
Jonathan King:
where you could get 500 applicants to a position, or
Jonathan King:
where every applicant is just firing off hundreds of
Jonathan King:
applications. It's really hard in this attention economy to get
Jonathan King:
the attention. And I like what you're describing, like, you're
Jonathan King:
basically going to the source, like, get to folks before they
Jonathan King:
get kind of stuck in the mill and don't know what to do
Jonathan King:
anymore. I've thought about doing what you just described.
Jonathan King:
I've just never had time to really do it. I used to have
Jonathan King:
some relationships to the local colleges. They've largely
Jonathan King:
frittered away because people leave, I would go to their job
Jonathan King:
sites to post our positions. But even interns can be a challenge
Jonathan King:
in terms of just having time good time, like you want the
Jonathan King:
intern to actually have a good experience. You don't want to
Jonathan King:
hire someone and give them a promise of learning and
Jonathan King:
mentorship and then kind of leave them high and dry with
Jonathan King:
like, some mundane tasks going back to my own, like, pre
Jonathan King:
history, one of my very first jobs, I was hired in the summer
Jonathan King:
to work at bolt Brad can Newman, not the school, but a company in
Jonathan King:
Boston, the company that invented hard drives, funnily
Jonathan King:
enough, and I worked for their facilities department,
Jonathan King:
maintaining their computers. And I was essentially an intern. And
Jonathan King:
I learned something then that has stuck with me forever, which
Jonathan King:
is that I just want experience, so I'll happily take an unpaid
Jonathan King:
internship. That's all I wanted. I just wanted experience
Jonathan King:
somewhere in the world. So I understood what it like to have
Jonathan King:
a job and go to an office every day and all these things. And
Jonathan King:
the company was like, so we actually can't hire an unpaid
Jonathan King:
intern. We have to pay you. And I was like, wait, what? Yeah,
Jonathan King:
that's a new thing. Well, this was a 35 year old thing. Maybe
Jonathan King:
they were like, on the cuff, who knows? And I was like, in
Jonathan King:
hindsight, I was like, That makes so much sense, like, I'm
Jonathan King:
doing real work for you, and I'm expecting something from it, and
Jonathan King:
they're going to pay me, and they're going to mentor me. And
Jonathan King:
I had a great mentor. His name was Frank, and I love that guy.
Jonathan King:
And he. Taught me a lot of things about what it was to
Jonathan King:
work, and what I feel is that I don't know that I could pull
Jonathan King:
that off for an intern. Now, what we would often do somewhat
Jonathan King:
similar what you described, but like, we would hire a student
Jonathan King:
who is graduating to work in the summer, and that can be loaded,
Jonathan King:
because there are equity issues, and we have a lot of FA
Jonathan King:
students, and we have financial aid, and you don't want your
Jonathan King:
summer pool of workers to look like the kids who have FA
Jonathan King:
because there's something wrong with that, in some ways, to me,
Jonathan King:
and also wonderful that you're giving someone an opportunity to
Jonathan King:
get a job and make some money. And so over time, we've kind of
Jonathan King:
up staffed and then stopped hiring students, which makes me
Jonathan King:
sad. And so I look for opportunities where we can bring
Jonathan King:
in people, but it's a challenge, and I wish that I did this
Jonathan King:
better. I'll say it like that, you're saying things bill that
Jonathan King:
really resonate with me and that I feel like I have not done as
Jonathan King:
well as I could have. And we should have pipelines in this
Jonathan King:
world. We should have people excited to go into education.
Jonathan King:
And there are a lot of reasons why that isn't happening right
Jonathan King:
now, but I'll tell you, when I was a kid, being a teacher was
Jonathan King:
something to be proud of. It was something to aspire to, and I
Jonathan King:
feel like that is less true now than it was then, and I still
Jonathan King:
aspire, in some ways, I still aspire to be a teacher. I
Jonathan King:
haven't quite gotten back to it. Maybe that's my next chapter.
Jonathan King:
Hiram, go back to be a computer science teacher. That would be
Jonathan King:
pretty awesome.
Christina Lewellen:
So let's move into AI, as we've alluded
Christina Lewellen:
to. We want to talk to you a little bit about that, because I
Christina Lewellen:
think that it sounds as if you've leveraged AI a bit on the
Christina Lewellen:
operation side in terms of just running a more efficient
Christina Lewellen:
department, running a more efficient school, my guess is
Christina Lewellen:
what you've been talking about in terms of how you let your
Christina Lewellen:
students get involved, that they also are probably using AI. So
Christina Lewellen:
let me just lob that one over to you, and have you talk to us a
Christina Lewellen:
little bit about how the school is thinking about AI and some of
Christina Lewellen:
the use cases that you've been deploying to date,
Jonathan King:
I think the most important use case is students.
Jonathan King:
How are students interacting with AI? Our philosophy started
Jonathan King:
when chat GPT hit the scene in a very public way. Everyone
Jonathan King:
started to freak out about it. We had known for years that this
Jonathan King:
was coming. We'd been thinking about it for years. It for
Jonathan King:
years. It wasn't a huge surprise to us, but yet it was still like
Jonathan King:
a really big tipping point, and we determined early on that AI
Jonathan King:
wasn't something we were going to block, it wasn't something we
Jonathan King:
were going to stop, it was a thing that we were going to
Jonathan King:
embrace. We want to be perceived and to actually be a leader in
Jonathan King:
how AI can actually enhance someone's education. We don't
Jonathan King:
want to take humans out of this process. We don't think that AI
Jonathan King:
is going to become the teacher, but an AI agent can really help.
Jonathan King:
So we eventually purchased Flint, which I think many
Jonathan King:
schools have done. We have Toddle at our Lower School,
Jonathan King:
which has AI components, which are actually very impressive. We
Jonathan King:
have turned On Gemini for all of our students. They're allowed to
Jonathan King:
use it. We have explained, ad nauseam, frankly, our AI policy
Jonathan King:
with everyone. So every student should know that the teacher
Jonathan King:
gets to set the level. It's level zero through four, zero
Jonathan King:
being nothing, one being essentially, it can act like a
Jonathan King:
tutor. And then two, three and four being it can generate
Jonathan King:
content of various complexity. We very much felt like aI should
Jonathan King:
be viewed as a tutor in a lot of ways, and so we aligned our AI
Jonathan King:
policy to our tutoring policy. I assume many schools have a
Jonathan King:
tutoring policy because we don't want tutors doing students work.
Jonathan King:
So we set guidelines about what looks like to get external help
Jonathan King:
on your work. And a tutor doesn't mean a paid person. It
Jonathan King:
could be me as a parent, it could be anyone. Could be a
Jonathan King:
friend. A friend could tutor you. So we have a tutoring
Jonathan King:
policy, and the AI policy goes pretty much in line with it. The
Jonathan King:
end result is that we want to develop kids minds. That's what
Jonathan King:
we're here for. We're not here to develop kids who can't
Jonathan King:
reason, who can't think, who can't solve problems, but AI can
Jonathan King:
be an incredible tool to help you do all of those things. So
Jonathan King:
our teachers are empowered to thoughtfully use AI in ways that
Jonathan King:
help to enhance and to further the mission that we have at the
Jonathan King:
school. Some teachers are all in. It's like really impressive
Jonathan King:
to see, and not all in, in a way of saying we're using AI for
Jonathan King:
everything. They're all in around AI is a tool. It's yet
Jonathan King:
another tool in my very huge toolbox, and I'm going to use it
Jonathan King:
thoughtfully and creatively, and we're going to make sure we have
Jonathan King:
good outcomes, and we're going to learn from the mistakes we
Jonathan King:
make, and we're going to hone it. We're going to share it with
Jonathan King:
our colleagues. We have other teachers who are not quite there
Jonathan King:
yet, which I also think is fine, and we are, as a school, working
Jonathan King:
to raise the floor for everyone so that AI is a real component.
Jonathan King:
Obviously, AI from a teacher perspective, as a teacher tool
Jonathan King:
is kind of incredible. It can really reduce the amount of time
Jonathan King:
it takes to do something we don't want it to reduce the
Jonathan King:
amount of thought or the amount of care or the amount of
Jonathan King:
understanding that someone has about what they are actually
Jonathan King:
doing. So it's really important to me, like on a personal and
Jonathan King:
professional level, that the AI isn't taking over our reasoning
Jonathan King:
skills, right? A teacher is still making the choices and
Jonathan King:
using AI to assist in the implementation of that choice.
Jonathan King:
But we would not look too kindly on someone just going to AI,
Jonathan King:
saying, write me a lesson plan for this, and then handing that
Jonathan King:
to the kids. You know, there might be a time when AI is so
Jonathan King:
good at mimicking the way we individually think that.
Jonathan King:
Something that it produces would actually be what I would
Jonathan King:
produce. But I'm not there at all. Like, I don't use AI to
Jonathan King:
write my own words. Almost ever the bio that I sent you all
Jonathan King:
beforehand, I wrote, and then I had aI write, and then I wrote,
Jonathan King:
and then I had aI write, and, like, we went back and forth,
Jonathan King:
and I was like, this sucks. Then I rewrote it, and that's what
Jonathan King:
you got, was the last piece of that chain. So those are, like,
Jonathan King:
the two big lenses we have, like for students, it's about, how do
Jonathan King:
you use it responsibly? And I'll tell you, it's really hard,
Jonathan King:
because kids are often teenagers who don't necessarily do what
Jonathan King:
you tell them to do, and so they may be using it in ways that we
Jonathan King:
don't want them to. Policing that is a challenge for
Jonathan King:
teachers, learning how to work around that has been a challenge
Jonathan King:
for us as a school. There's been an increase in in class work.
Jonathan King:
I'm going to watch you do something in front of me, and
Jonathan King:
part of me feels like that's a shame, but part of me realizes
Jonathan King:
that's a realistic response to the unknown situation of like,
Jonathan King:
how are kids actually completing the work that I'm assigning
Jonathan King:
them? And so we've been working really hard on giving teachers a
Jonathan King:
lot of toolboxes. I've been in the AI Council. I founded the AI
Jonathan King:
Council at the beginning. I've now handed it off to someone
Jonathan King:
else to run, but we are probably going to spin up an operations
Jonathan King:
AI Council in addition to the current academic AI Council, and
Jonathan King:
that's on my list for right now.
Christina Lewellen:
That's interesting. So you're going to
Christina Lewellen:
separate them, yeah, super interesting. Who serves on each
Christina Lewellen:
of those councils, and why did you decide to break them out?
Jonathan King:
So currently we have just the AI Council, and it
Jonathan King:
is basically division heads, me, assistant division heads, a
Jonathan King:
couple of teachers who are invested in this, and one other
Jonathan King:
person on my team, and our new director of studies, which is a
Jonathan King:
new position that we built this year, and the director of
Jonathan King:
studies and our Associate Director of Academic AI, which
Jonathan King:
is a position that reports to me that we made for last year. Are
Jonathan King:
running that council. It's very exciting like they're setting
Jonathan King:
the agenda, they're setting the conversation. They're bringing
Jonathan King:
topics to the table. We have built a system that basically
Jonathan King:
works. Now what we want to do is make sure that we are actually
Jonathan King:
working with individual teachers to make sure that we are
Jonathan King:
expressing that system appropriately. So Mattice, our
Jonathan King:
Associate Director of Academic AI, and Academic Technology
Jonathan King:
Specialist, is the one who is charged with going to all of our
Jonathan King:
middle upper school teachers and working with them hand in hand
Jonathan King:
to help them to figure out how AI can or cannot be used within
Jonathan King:
their own practice. Because our answer to things is not you must
Jonathan King:
use it. It's you must think about how you can use it and
Jonathan King:
make a reasonable decision, not you must do what we tell you to
Jonathan King:
do about all these things. The operational component is the
Jonathan King:
thing I want to build that I think should have me. I think
Jonathan King:
there'll be a couple of us who cross over, frankly, because I
Jonathan King:
think that's important to see the conversations on both sides.
Jonathan King:
But we have a pretty robust operations arm, like we have
Jonathan King:
admissions, we have development, we have finance, we have the
Jonathan King:
college office, which so much travels, academic and
Jonathan King:
operations. And there are a lot of places that we are not
Jonathan King:
currently using AI that I think would be valuable. And so I
Jonathan King:
think we need to start having those conversations more in
Jonathan King:
earnest. We started with the student facing part, because it
Jonathan King:
felt the most urgent from a community standpoint. And now I
Jonathan King:
think we need to move into the need to move into the what can
Jonathan King:
we do to enhance operations? I mean, like a tiny little
Jonathan King:
example, like, and you all go through this, like, the
Jonathan King:
scheduling of parent teacher conferences is really time
Jonathan King:
consuming. I sat down two weeks ago with one of our people who
Jonathan King:
schedules them, and just said, Show me the entire process. Like
Jonathan King:
I helped you build part of this years ago, but show me
Jonathan King:
everything. And as a result of that, I sat down, and this is
Jonathan King:
what I use a programmer for. I wrote a program that, with a
Jonathan King:
little spreadsheet and some inputs, will create all the
Jonathan King:
counter events, send all the emails to people, do all of the
Jonathan King:
things that were tedious before, but that's like a piece that AI
Jonathan King:
used, like I used AI to build that, and it would not have
Jonathan King:
existed without it. And we can use that in a million other
Jonathan King:
places, but people just don't know to ask the question. Ask
Jonathan King:
the question, or don't know that the resource is available. And I
Jonathan King:
think we need to get the word out problems small and large,
Jonathan King:
we're here for you
Christina Lewellen:
well, and also that you're doing it in a
Christina Lewellen:
really thoughtful and informed and aligned way. Because I think
Christina Lewellen:
that what's happening, or at least what I'm observing, is
Christina Lewellen:
that business offices are just going about their business and
Christina Lewellen:
figuring out AI, for example, without involving the tech team
Christina Lewellen:
and without making it a game plan, a strategy. So it's cool
Christina Lewellen:
that you're thinking about how you could do it in a more
Christina Lewellen:
comprehensive way, where everybody's sort of on the same
Christina Lewellen:
page.
Jonathan King:
That was actually part of the reason that I argued
Jonathan King:
for a title change for myself. I was a director of technology for
Jonathan King:
quite a few years, and before that was a, you know, slightly
Jonathan King:
different titles. And two years ago, we switched to me being the
Jonathan King:
Cheeto, the Chief Information Technology Officer, because I
Jonathan King:
wanted to make it really clear that I needed to have a seat at
Jonathan King:
all the tables, and that I needed to be involved, not to
Jonathan King:
tell everyone what to do, but to listen and to help. And you
Jonathan King:
know, we're still trying to make that come true, but that is why
Jonathan King:
I have the position that I do. Because we have a lens. US tech
Jonathan King:
folks have a lens across the whole school in a way that is
Jonathan King:
often very unique and not fully appreciated.
Christina Lewellen:
So as we start wrapping up, Jonathan, I
Christina Lewellen:
want to just give you a second to tell us a little bit about
Christina Lewellen:
some. The things you're thinking about, I would imagine that
Christina Lewellen:
we've covered some of that ground. But as you look at the
Christina Lewellen:
back half of the year, what are some of the projects or dreams
Christina Lewellen:
that you're dreaming in terms of things that you want to tackle
Christina Lewellen:
next?
Jonathan King:
Okay, I have so many things I want to tackle. I
Jonathan King:
use Asana, and I have a list that is literally so long that I
Jonathan King:
can't get to the end of it ever, which is scary, and often at the
Jonathan King:
same time, we need to go through a really huge operational review
Jonathan King:
of all of our HVAC systems, all of our security systems, and
Jonathan King:
bring everything under one consistent and clear umbrella.
Jonathan King:
And I have a really great new director of facilities and a new
Jonathan King:
director of security who are working on that with me. And
Jonathan King:
it's really exciting, because it's a place that we have so
Jonathan King:
much inefficiency that really, this isn't even an AI thing.
Jonathan King:
This is just, let's just get some money together and get some
Jonathan King:
planning together and start to bring everything under one
Jonathan King:
umbrella. Another big project I have is and I'm a little
Jonathan King:
embarrassed that I have let something go as long as I have,
Jonathan King:
but we have a lot of AV systems that are in place for too long
Jonathan King:
that need renovation, and so it just needs clear eyeballs. I got
Jonathan King:
a quote from our new vendor as of a year ago, but yesterday, to
Jonathan King:
renovate a whole bunch of systems, and it's super
Jonathan King:
expensive, so part of my job for the next like month is to
Jonathan King:
justify the very large requests for money I'm going to be making
Jonathan King:
this year in order to kind of catch us up a little bit. I'm
Jonathan King:
not a really big believer in everything has a defined
Jonathan King:
lifespan at the time of purchase. I don't want to tell
Jonathan King:
anyone that, like, you're due for a new laptop, because it's
Jonathan King:
four years old. I always say, like, is it fit to its purpose?
Jonathan King:
Like, does it do what it needs to do? It doesn't be flashing. I
Jonathan King:
don't use the newest. I don't use the latest and greatest. But
Jonathan King:
if you need that, that's what we're going to get you, because
Jonathan King:
that's what you need to be productive. And so it's hard for
Jonathan King:
me with our budgeting process. Like, a lot of boards want to
Jonathan King:
see leasing. They want to see every year an exact sunk cost.
Jonathan King:
We are more flexible than that. Sometimes the laptop last two
Jonathan King:
years, sometimes the last five years. So I'm going through all
Jonathan King:
of my budgets right now to figure out what that looks like,
Jonathan King:
so we can kind of have a better long term plan. But in terms of
Jonathan King:
AV, 10 years might be too long. Let's just say it out loud. So
Jonathan King:
we have some work to do. The other big thing that I want to
Jonathan King:
do is really support our Academic Technology team in
Jonathan King:
working with teachers, so they can really focus on bringing
Jonathan King:
technology to make better outcomes for kids. That is a
Jonathan King:
place that is, I think, really important. Well, it
Christina Lewellen:
sounds like you have plenty to keep you
Christina Lewellen:
occupied, and while I'm sure that there are many listeners
Christina Lewellen:
who are just drooling at the idea of how large your team is,
Christina Lewellen:
it sounds like you are keeping your hands full, that there's
Christina Lewellen:
always a big project. And isn't that just the case with
Christina Lewellen:
independent schools, there's always another project, no
Christina Lewellen:
matter how many sets of hands you have. So Dr, Jonathan King,
Christina Lewellen:
I'm so glad you joined us today. This has been so useful. We're
Christina Lewellen:
so grateful to have had this time with you, and we really
Christina Lewellen:
appreciate you joining us. Thank you. It was great to be here.
Peter Frank:
This has been talking technology with ATLIS,
Peter Frank:
produced by the Association of technology leaders in
Peter Frank:
independent schools. For more information about Atlas and
Peter Frank:
Atlas membership, please visit the atlas.org if you enjoyed
Peter Frank:
this discussion, please subscribe, leave a review and
Peter Frank:
share this podcast with your colleagues in the independent
Peter Frank:
school community. Thank you for listening. You.
