Shoulder to Shoulder: Dr. Alison Lee on Partnering with Youth in the AI Age
Presented by:
Presented by Blackbaud
Dr. Alison Lee, Chief R&D Officer of The Rithm Project, joins the podcast to discuss the collision between the youth loneliness epidemic and the rise of AI. She shares research on why young people are turning to AI for connection and explains her five principles for "pro-social AI," offering a hopeful framework for nurturing human relationships in a tech-saturated world.
- The Rithm Project, Alison’s substack
- The Rithm Project on LinkedIn
- Five Principles for Prosocial AI, how to design (and choose) technology that strengthens human connection
- Deepfakes to Deep Trust: Navigating AI's Impact on Connection, Learning, and Belonging, slide deck from presentation at ASCD Annual Conference 2025
- Spark Toolkit, resource from The Rithm Project designed for teens and young adults to create spaces, tools, and activities that help young people develop meaningful connections with others
- Character AI, platform that allows users to interact with AI-powered chatbots that can be customized to have unique personalities and behaviors
Transcript
Narrator:
Nick, welcome to Talking technology with Atlas,
Narrator:
the show that plugs you into the important topics and trends for
Narrator:
technology leaders all through a unique Independent School lens.
Narrator:
We'll hear stories from technology directors and other
Narrator:
special guests from the Independent School community,
Narrator:
and provide you with focused learning and deep dive topics.
Narrator:
And now please welcome your host, Kristina llewellen,
Christina Lewellen:
hello everyone, and welcome back to
Christina Lewellen:
talking technology with Atlas. I'm Kristina llewellen, the
Christina Lewellen:
president and CEO of the Association of technology
Christina Lewellen:
leaders in independent schools.
Bill Stites:
And I am Bill Stites, the Director of
Bill Stites:
Technology at Montclair Kimberly Academy in Montclair, New
Bill Stites:
Jersey, and I'm
Hiram Cuevas:
Hiram Cuevas, the Director of Information Systems
Hiram Cuevas:
and Academic Technology at St Christopher school in Richmond,
Hiram Cuevas:
Virginia.
Christina Lewellen:
Hello, gentlemen. How are you today?
Christina Lewellen:
Start a school. I know it's exciting. You know, before we
Christina Lewellen:
jump in and I have a killer guest today that I cannot wait
Christina Lewellen:
to introduce you guys to, this is a big deal. Dr Ashley cross,
Christina Lewellen:
on our staff, came back from ISTE, absolutely raving about
Christina Lewellen:
this speaker, and we get to talk to her. I'm very excited about
Christina Lewellen:
that. But as we were doing some prep for the show and I was
Christina Lewellen:
doing some reading, I have a question. I want to take a quick
Christina Lewellen:
temperature from you guys, if you don't mind, we spent a lot
Christina Lewellen:
of time at the beginning of last year, talking about locking up
Christina Lewellen:
phones. And I'm curious. I'm hearing some people talking
Christina Lewellen:
about cell phone bans, and I'm hearing some schools that are
Christina Lewellen:
continuing with their policies from last year. What are y'all
Christina Lewellen:
seeing at your schools? Are you guys taking the phones away,
Christina Lewellen:
sticking with last year's policy? Have you made any
Christina Lewellen:
adjustments to the cell phone restrictions at your schools,
Christina Lewellen:
for your uppers, for
Bill Stites:
us, I would say we're status quo. To be honest
Bill Stites:
with you, it hasn't even been something I've thought about.
Bill Stites:
It's something that I would assume at this point. You know
Bill Stites:
what we were doing last year is what we'll be doing this year.
Bill Stites:
We haven't heard of any major changes one way or the other.
Bill Stites:
Whatever we were doing seems to be working, and we'll be
Bill Stites:
continuing with that, most likely throughout the
Hiram Cuevas:
year, we are going to stick to the status quo as
Hiram Cuevas:
well. The only thing that I would add to what Bill mentioned
Hiram Cuevas:
is we are starting to ask some questions surrounding
Hiram Cuevas:
cybersecurity, because what we are unable to do is employ two
Hiram Cuevas:
factor authentication for our high school students who we
Hiram Cuevas:
think we would like to have that on there. And then the other
Hiram Cuevas:
piece is, from a crisis management perspective, there's
Hiram Cuevas:
no way to actually communicate with a student who may be
Hiram Cuevas:
isolated away from a an adult by leveraging a crisis management
Hiram Cuevas:
tool to send out a notification or text message to them. So
Hiram Cuevas:
there's still a couple of things that we're wondering about. And
Hiram Cuevas:
actually a fellow T list member, Mark Adair, posted that on the
Hiram Cuevas:
ised thread, and this had become a lively conversation as well.
Bill Stites:
You know, what's interesting about that? Hiram,
Bill Stites:
that I always go back to, though, is, and this is an old
Bill Stites:
point that we would bring up before, particularly when we
Bill Stites:
were talking laptops back in the day, was the equity question
Bill Stites:
there in terms of who has a device, what type of device do
Bill Stites:
they have? What that means in terms of parental decisions for
Bill Stites:
a student to have a device or not? I'm not saying what you're
Bill Stites:
bringing up isn't valid. It just still brings up a lot of those
Bill Stites:
points on a lot of those questions, and in particular,
Bill Stites:
even when we got into that with faculty, like whether it was
Bill Stites:
during covid, having to have, like, for us, the Magnus app on
Bill Stites:
their phone to be able to check themselves in, or what we're
Bill Stites:
doing now with rovna, or even the two factor piece, it's the
Bill Stites:
idea that you're asking people to use a personal device for
Bill Stites:
work related purposes that you haven't provided them. So I know
Bill Stites:
there's been some question about what the legal ramifications are
Bill Stites:
of that in specific states or jurisdictions and schools and so
Bill Stites:
on and so forth. So I'm still always curious about that piece
Bill Stites:
of it with our faculty, our employees, and even if we're
Bill Stites:
going to start thinking about that with students,
Hiram Cuevas:
exactly, and it's fair to say that almost every
Hiram Cuevas:
one of those issues that you brought up is being mentioned in
Hiram Cuevas:
that thread that Mark actually put forth. So it's certainly
Hiram Cuevas:
bringing up the excitement level in cyberspace.
Christina Lewellen:
Yeah, it's really interesting that we
Christina Lewellen:
talked a ton about some of the cell phone bands like we
Christina Lewellen:
couldn't not talk about it a year ago, and now it has maybe
Christina Lewellen:
taken either a back seat or the passenger seat, maybe to some
Christina Lewellen:
conversations around AI. And that is why I think our guest
Christina Lewellen:
today is just as Ashley cross mentioned, such a huge
Christina Lewellen:
opportunity for Atlas, we are welcoming to the podcast Dr
Christina Lewellen:
Allison Lee. She's the Chief R and D officer of the rhythm
Christina Lewellen:
project, which is an initiative that I didn't know much about,
Christina Lewellen:
but I'm super excited to share with our community, because it's
Christina Lewellen:
really looking in a very youth centered way at research that
Christina Lewellen:
has to do with emerging technology foresight. Because.
Christina Lewellen:
Helping make sure that this generation of young people can
Christina Lewellen:
find that human connection in the age of all these
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distractions and in the age of AI. So Allison has her PhD in
Christina Lewellen:
cognitive science in education and a master's in learning
Christina Lewellen:
analytics from Columbia University. Allison, welcome to
Christina Lewellen:
our podcast. It's such a lovely pleasure to have you here.
Alison Lee:
Thank you so much for having me. I'm just
Alison Lee:
listening in on this conversation and so many of
Alison Lee:
these crucial themes around who gets access, who gets to
Alison Lee:
participate in this new digital era, and who gets to have the
Alison Lee:
supportive conditions that enable them to survive. They all
Alison Lee:
feel so relevant to this moment. We're just seeing a different
Alison Lee:
moment where so much of this technology is poised to
Alison Lee:
completely transform the way we connect and relate to each
Alison Lee:
other, certainly in learning, teaching and learning, but in
Alison Lee:
much
Christina Lewellen:
broader ways than that. So you've spent a lot
Christina Lewellen:
of your career looking at youth belonging, youth safety. You've
Christina Lewellen:
also had a front row seat to the evolution of some of this
Christina Lewellen:
technology, having worked at some large technology companies,
Christina Lewellen:
can you tell our audience a little bit about where your
Christina Lewellen:
interest in this whole broad topic comes from? Tell us a
Christina Lewellen:
little bit about your background.
Alison Lee:
Oh, man, to tell this story, I really have to
Alison Lee:
start with my own story of being a student as an immigrant and as
Alison Lee:
a student in public K 12 schools here in the United States. So my
Alison Lee:
family immigrated here from Hong Kong when I was five years old,
Alison Lee:
and it was me, my twin sister and my older brother. We went
Alison Lee:
from hot, humid, densely populated Hong Kong, surrounded
Alison Lee:
by family, to suburban New Jersey, where my sister, my
Alison Lee:
brother and I were quickly going through, yeah, I see the
Alison Lee:
Montclair New Jersey. I grew up in Bridgewater, and where all
Alison Lee:
three of us went through this ESL program and matriculated and
Alison Lee:
went on. My sister and I did fairly well, quote, unquote,
Alison Lee:
fairly well in the school system, but my brother really
Alison Lee:
struggled, and my brother struggled with the language. He
Alison Lee:
struggled to acclimate, he struggled with making friends,
Alison Lee:
and he struggled with keeping up in school, and my parents were
Alison Lee:
really hard on him. They were always like, he's just not
Alison Lee:
trying hard enough, he's lazy. And there might have been some
Alison Lee:
element of truth in that, but what I also saw was when my
Alison Lee:
brother was really struggling in school to persist and to be
Alison Lee:
effortful in his academics. I'd watch him play video games. I'd
Alison Lee:
watch him play Legend of Zelda. And he'd be incredibly
Alison Lee:
persistent in the face of failure. He'd be incredibly
Alison Lee:
resilient and intentional and problem solving and looking for
Alison Lee:
help and resources when he really needed it. And watching
Alison Lee:
this as his little sister, I was like, there's two very different
Alison Lee:
versions of this older brother that I have. And what is it
Alison Lee:
about the ways that he's showing up in these digital spaces that
Alison Lee:
feel very agentic and supportive, where he has so much
Alison Lee:
confidence in how he shows up, that's a very different version
Alison Lee:
of him that shows up in school. And so I think that was really
Alison Lee:
my journey into it. It was a full circle moment when I got my
Alison Lee:
PhD. It was in productive failure in video games, and how
Alison Lee:
productive failure can actually be a skill set that's used in
Alison Lee:
the classroom. And then from there, I went to a education
Alison Lee:
nonprofit studying belonging and character development in
Alison Lee:
schools, and I found myself sitting in circles with middle
Alison Lee:
schoolers all over the country, whether that was St Paul,
Alison Lee:
Minnesota or Oregon or Queens New York or Oakland, California,
Alison Lee:
asking young people, what does it take for you to do your best
Alison Lee:
in school? And their answers, despite coming from very
Alison Lee:
different backgrounds, very different school systems were
Alison Lee:
profoundly and universally human. They were saying, if I
Alison Lee:
don't feel loved and cared for by the people around me, if I
Alison Lee:
don't feel like I'm heard by my peers and I feel respected and
Alison Lee:
safe to share my thoughts, if I don't feel like the adults that
Alison Lee:
are in my life believe me capable of success and hold me
Alison Lee:
to that high standard, but support me to get there, then
Alison Lee:
I'm not going to feel safe to show up. And increasingly, if
Alison Lee:
they weren't finding that sense of belonging and safety and care
Alison Lee:
in schools, that that sense of human connection in schools,
Alison Lee:
they were increasingly turning to general spaces to go look for
Alison Lee:
that. This is 2015 2016 so they were turning to places like
Alison Lee:
Tumblr and discord and Instagram, and at the time, the
Alison Lee:
conversations that were happening at the adult level
Alison Lee:
were sort of ignoring this digital space that young people
Alison Lee:
were increasingly finding so much agency in, right? So I
Alison Lee:
think of my brother and his ability to find agency in video
Alison Lee:
games, and then increasingly, how many young people are often
Alison Lee:
the earliest and most enthusiastic adopters of
Alison Lee:
emergent technologies, and really good at co opting those
Alison Lee:
technologies in service of their curiosity, their passion, their
Alison Lee:
belonging, their identity development, despite the fact
Alison Lee:
that many of these technologies are actually not designed with
Alison Lee:
them and their well being in mind. Yeah. And so in 2021 i.
Alison Lee:
Chose to go to one of these technology companies I work at a
Alison Lee:
big tech company focusing specifically on trust and
Alison Lee:
safety, particularly for vulnerable populations and
Alison Lee:
teens.
Christina Lewellen:
Now I will tell you that Dr cross on my
Christina Lewellen:
team, obviously, as I mentioned in my preamble, came home Raven,
Christina Lewellen:
about your ISTE presentation. Can you tell our audience a
Christina Lewellen:
little bit about the drum that you are currently banging? So
Christina Lewellen:
like when you're sort of out on the circuit and the things that
Christina Lewellen:
you're talking about? I mean, obviously all of that background
Christina Lewellen:
brings us to a really interesting moment, because now,
Christina Lewellen:
with AI, we are having these conversations way more often and
Christina Lewellen:
in a lot more circles than we used to. I feel like you're out
Christina Lewellen:
there speaking some truth to the things that we all as adults in
Christina Lewellen:
the room need to be thinking about. So tell us a little bit
Christina Lewellen:
about your road show lately, the points that you're trying to
Christina Lewellen:
make to audiences.
Alison Lee:
Yeah, here at the rhythm project, we see two big
Alison Lee:
Titans poised to sort of clash and collide in this really
Alison Lee:
pivotal moment in human society. The first is what the Surgeon
Alison Lee:
General calls the crisis of disconnection, this loneliness
Alison Lee:
epidemic that we see writ large across society, but is
Alison Lee:
especially true for young people. We see that young people
Alison Lee:
are spending less time than ever in number of minutes spent with
Alison Lee:
their peers, we're seeing greater rates of suicide and
Alison Lee:
loneliness. All of the measures of well being, right, anxiety,
Alison Lee:
depression, suicidal ideation, loneliness, social connection,
Alison Lee:
are all pointing in the wrong direction, particularly for
Alison Lee:
young people. So that is a movement that we've been seeing
Alison Lee:
to be true since 2012 honestly, this decline in connection, and
Alison Lee:
then on the other side, what we're seeing is the rise of
Alison Lee:
technologies that's really designed to emulate human
Alison Lee:
connection. And so when we think about these two forces that are
Alison Lee:
poised to collide, we have to ask, in what ways is this going
Alison Lee:
to reshape human connection? And we know that technology is not
Alison Lee:
inherently good or bad, but it's certainly not neutral, right?
Alison Lee:
And so we ask these questions amongst our community around
Alison Lee:
what potential can this technology unlock in what ways
Alison Lee:
might this technology increase our capacity for human
Alison Lee:
connection? In? What ways would it put that human connection at
Alison Lee:
peril? What harm should we guard against? And we think of this as
Alison Lee:
a sort of like a futures exercise of imagination, right?
Alison Lee:
Because the future is not fixed. I think many times we talk to
Alison Lee:
technologists, and we talk to these big tech folks, and
Alison Lee:
they're like, AGI is the future, or electronic cars are the
Alison Lee:
future, or we talk about the future as though it was already
Alison Lee:
predetermined. And what we really focus on in this moment
Alison Lee:
is agency, and especially youth agency, which is that nothing is
Alison Lee:
fixed. We get to dream of the future that we want, and we can
Alison Lee:
only do that by exercising both our imagination towards what's
Alison Lee:
possible that we want more of. How do we reach towards the
Alison Lee:
future that we want and what's the future that we don't want?
Alison Lee:
And how do we mitigate against that, because we all have a
Alison Lee:
responsibility and the agency to do so.
Hiram Cuevas:
So Allison, I'm struck by your introduction to
Hiram Cuevas:
this, because independent schools, by their very nature,
Hiram Cuevas:
really, really pride themselves on relationship building. That's
Hiram Cuevas:
what we're pretty much in the business of doing, and so I'm
Hiram Cuevas:
curious, and I'm coming from the position of being a techno file.
Hiram Cuevas:
I wouldn't be in this role if I were not. But when I'm talking
Hiram Cuevas:
to key leaders, not only in my school, but around the country,
Hiram Cuevas:
one of the things they always talk about is we're in the
Hiram Cuevas:
business of relationships. And I think this is going to be a
Hiram Cuevas:
really challenging moment for our type of school than, say,
Hiram Cuevas:
some that have not the same level of emphasis of
Hiram Cuevas:
relationships as the K 12 Independent School market. And
Hiram Cuevas:
I'm curious to see what your opinion is on that, or is there
Hiram Cuevas:
that balance, that nuance that you alluded to, that is going to
Hiram Cuevas:
be really important, because it isn't necessarily a good or bad
Hiram Cuevas:
thing, it is neutral. How do we balance that and assuage the
Hiram Cuevas:
skeptics?
Alison Lee:
Yeah, well, first of all, I think that's a superpower
Alison Lee:
that more than ever our school systems need to lean into. Is
Alison Lee:
like doubling down on the power of human connection. So much of
Alison Lee:
the conversation around AI is, how is it going to transform the
Alison Lee:
workforce, or how is it going to transform our professional
Alison Lee:
careers for our young people? And what we're hearing time and
Alison Lee:
time again is that the deeply human and relational skills are
Alison Lee:
going to be more important than ever. So I think the fact that
Alison Lee:
independent schools have always focused on those relational
Alison Lee:
components is going to be a superpower for their
Alison Lee:
professional development. But I think more importantly, what
Alison Lee:
we're hearing especially from young people who are and let's
Alison Lee:
just be clear, lots and lots of young people across the spectrum
Alison Lee:
of the different diverse experiences of young people, are
Alison Lee:
experimenting with this technology in ways that are
Alison Lee:
actually very developmentally. Typical, right? I think about my
Alison Lee:
16 year old self going on AOL, I was probably part of a pretty
Alison Lee:
large group of my peers that were playing around with this
Alison Lee:
technologies in ways that my parents may or may not have been
Alison Lee:
approving of. But when we talk to young people, what is driving
Alison Lee:
you to play with these technologies, or the different
Alison Lee:
use cases beyond just for schools. How are you using this
Alison Lee:
and why? What we're hearing from them is they come in through a
Alison Lee:
window of curiosity. What would it be like to talk to my
Alison Lee:
favorite TV show character, or, ooh, I'm a big fan of this k pop
Alison Lee:
boy band. Let me go talk to this bot that sounds like my favorite
Alison Lee:
boy band, and a lot of it is just out of fun and curiosity.
Alison Lee:
But that use case starts to then transform. They start asking it
Alison Lee:
questions, asking it for advice, asking Jimin from BTS, I have a
Alison Lee:
crush on a boy. What do I do about this? Or ranting into a
Alison Lee:
bot? I say sever snake because that's my frame of reference.
Alison Lee:
That's telling about my age. But for them, I for them it might be
Alison Lee:
Percy Jackson or an anime character, you know, they start
Alison Lee:
asking it for advice about, you know, I just had a hard day, and
Alison Lee:
I'm just been really struggling in school lately. Or they'll
Alison Lee:
start asking it about relationship advice or
Alison Lee:
navigating futures, all the things that are so
Alison Lee:
developmentally appropriate for young people, the things that
Alison Lee:
they grapple with they're turning to AI for advice. Then
Alison Lee:
when we ask them why, oftentimes, the answer is, I
Alison Lee:
feel like this is a place that I can turn to, that I won't be
Alison Lee:
judged, that I won't feel like there's going to be social
Alison Lee:
repercussions, that no one's going to judge me for what I'm
Alison Lee:
asking it. It's a space where I can feel vulnerable and get
Alison Lee:
advice in places where I don't feel like I can get it from
Alison Lee:
elsewhere. And I think that response, as someone who cares
Alison Lee:
deeply about young people makes me wonder, what is it about the
Alison Lee:
conditions of young people's lives today that make it feel
Alison Lee:
like it's really hard for them to turn to real life, human
Alison Lee:
resources, and I think that that's probably true for young
Alison Lee:
people. It's probably been true for young people for as long as
Alison Lee:
young people have been around, but feels especially relevant
Alison Lee:
today.
Bill Stites:
So one question I have about that, and I was
Bill Stites:
thinking about that Scarlett Johansson movie Her in terms of,
Bill Stites:
like, the way in which the characters were interacting with
Bill Stites:
the AI at that level. Looking at my two boys, one of my sons
Bill Stites:
potentially leaning towards engaging with AI in that way, I
Bill Stites:
have one son who's extremely social, the other one who is
Bill Stites:
not. And for him, I think that would be a place to ask
Bill Stites:
questions and to feel a little bit freer in terms of exploring
Bill Stites:
those communication pieces that aren't exactly the easiest thing
Bill Stites:
for him. My question though is, how much at this point do you
Bill Stites:
trust the AI in these conversations? If my son has
Bill Stites:
been chatting with AI, and it has been X. It has been helping.
Bill Stites:
It has been like, how do you trust those interactions, and
Bill Stites:
where do you stand on that at this point? Because, like, I
Bill Stites:
wouldn't know what chat bot he was talking with and how that
Bill Stites:
chat bot was trained, or any of the background on that. And
Bill Stites:
that's just where as a parent, as a tech professional, it's one
Bill Stites:
of those questions that I feel I need to ask in both of those
Bill Stites:
veins.
Alison Lee:
If you ask me based off of the research that we've
Alison Lee:
done, both with young people and also with the technology, my
Alison Lee:
answer would be that I will trusted very little at this
Alison Lee:
point, because currently, this technology is building at light
Alison Lee:
speed. It's building faster than we've ever seen any other sort
Alison Lee:
of technology revolution. We're talking about new models coming
Alison Lee:
up every six to eight weeks. And so we're only just wrapping our
Alison Lee:
heads around what are the capacities and limitations and
Alison Lee:
guardrails that need to be built into this technology? The most
Alison Lee:
obvious one here is ai sycomancy. We're seeing these
Alison Lee:
technologies become yes men to everybody who uses it, and so we
Alison Lee:
have to ask those questions around, what does it mean for
Alison Lee:
young people to be constantly engaging with a bot that they're
Alison Lee:
seeking, support, advice, connection with that only ever
Alison Lee:
says yes to them or does not provide any meaningful,
Alison Lee:
productive friction when we think about, you know, the most
Alison Lee:
important parts of adolescence and and relationship building,
Alison Lee:
it is in those moments of friction. It takes courage to
Alison Lee:
ask someone that you like out. It takes skills to negotiate
Alison Lee:
conflict so that your relationships are repaired
Alison Lee:
rather than broken. And so what happens when they don't have
Alison Lee:
that capacity for meaningful friction, or to have their
Alison Lee:
thinking pushed, or to have these technologies that are
Alison Lee:
really built to optimize for engagement, right to keep them
Alison Lee:
sustained in what does that mean for technologies that are really
Alison Lee:
trying to create sustained interaction? At what cost, at
Alison Lee:
what point might it displace real world connections and
Alison Lee:
relationships? Yes. And so I think in this moment, when we
Alison Lee:
look at the technology and we've developed a set of foundational
Alison Lee:
principles, we call them the five principles for pro social
Alison Lee:
AI, based off of research that we know is appropriate for
Alison Lee:
adolescent development that is also co built with young people.
Alison Lee:
So when I say this, I think what's really important is that
Alison Lee:
when we talk to young people, they're also very acutely aware
Alison Lee:
of some of these challenges. We do a lot of deep research and
Alison Lee:
community building with teens and undergraduate students, and
Alison Lee:
when we talk to them about these technologies, they're very aware
Alison Lee:
of these tendencies for technologies that constantly say
Alison Lee:
yes to them, or they're very aware of the fact that these
Alison Lee:
technologies pretend to be human and say things like, I really
Alison Lee:
care about you, or pretend to have feelings or
Christina Lewellen:
emotions, right? It's a slippery slope,
Christina Lewellen:
isn't it?
Alison Lee:
That's right, and I think the most important part is
Alison Lee:
so I would flip that question. Bill is to say, I know I don't
Alison Lee:
trust this technology, but more importantly, do young people
Alison Lee:
trust this technology, and that's the conversation that's
Alison Lee:
really worth having with young people, is to say, when you're
Alison Lee:
engaging with this technology, there are some things that it's
Alison Lee:
good for. So if we think of it as a tool, just like in the same
Alison Lee:
way that a young person might Google for resources or turn to
Alison Lee:
other resources for another perspective or for more assets
Alison Lee:
to be able to answer a question on it'd be a wonderful thing to
Alison Lee:
have within their toolbox. But if they're over reliant, or
Alison Lee:
they're starting to create dependencies on it, or if it
Alison Lee:
becomes the sole source of their information, or a sole source of
Alison Lee:
connection and support, that's when it's really important for
Alison Lee:
us to step back. And so I think a lot of times when we talk to
Alison Lee:
young people, they're quite aware of some of these
Alison Lee:
challenges, but there are particular groups of young
Alison Lee:
people that might be particularly vulnerable to the
Alison Lee:
seductions of this technology, if they're in crisis, or if
Alison Lee:
they're particularly lonely, or if they don't have access to
Alison Lee:
real world human supports. It makes a lot of sense for a young
Alison Lee:
person who does not have a caring adult, or who does not
Alison Lee:
have peers that they feel like there are, quote, unquote ride
Alison Lee:
or dies, right, that will show up for them and not judge them,
Alison Lee:
it makes a lot of sense for them to turn to AI, and yet that's
Alison Lee:
very concerning to know that the most vulnerable young people are
Alison Lee:
the ones that are going to be the most vulnerable to some of
Alison Lee:
these harms that are happening on these platforms that were not
Alison Lee:
built for their wellbeing. In mind, what's
Christina Lewellen:
really interesting, Allison, is that
Christina Lewellen:
this can be overwhelming, this whole topic, and everything that
Christina Lewellen:
you said can be very scary for parents, for educators, probably
Christina Lewellen:
even for the kids themselves, right? Our youth. What's really
Christina Lewellen:
cool about the rhythm project is that you guys have looked at all
Christina Lewellen:
this research, and you've come up with a framework that
Christina Lewellen:
identifies these five key principles that are really aimed
Christina Lewellen:
to looking at AI in a healthy way. What is the healthy
Christina Lewellen:
connection? How do we nurture that healthy connection? So I'd
Christina Lewellen:
love to give you space for a minute to just explain these
Christina Lewellen:
five principles, because I think it's hopeful. I highly recommend
Christina Lewellen:
to everyone listening, go get the report. It's really
Christina Lewellen:
intriguing, because it makes a lot of sense. And yet somehow I
Christina Lewellen:
think that the rhythm project has sort of put into words what
Christina Lewellen:
we would all hope would be there a very common sense framework.
Alison Lee:
So we started by building this framework, really
Alison Lee:
by starting to ask those same questions, that technology is
Alison Lee:
not inherently good or bad, but it's certainly not neutral. So
Alison Lee:
what does that actually look like? At what point might it
Alison Lee:
augment our human connection, and at what point might it erode
Alison Lee:
our capacity for human connection? And that really came
Alison Lee:
from starting with young people themselves. How are you using
Alison Lee:
this technology? What are those use cases? In what ways is it
Alison Lee:
supporting and strengthening either those relationships
Alison Lee:
themselves, or supporting your skill building, or your capacity
Alison Lee:
for your emotional development or your relationships, and in
Alison Lee:
what ways are we starting to see it erode those skills or
Alison Lee:
displace those human connections? And so through that
Alison Lee:
research and through deep conversation with our community
Alison Lee:
of experts, so we have a number of tech experts, psychologists,
Alison Lee:
adolescent development researchers, and then, of
Alison Lee:
course, young people themselves as experts of their own
Alison Lee:
experiences, we came up with these five principles, and
Alison Lee:
they're as follows. Number one is transparent artificiality
Alison Lee:
that AI directly names their non human nature. That came directly
Alison Lee:
from an interview with a young person saying that we've had
Alison Lee:
parasocial relationships, you know, liking a movie star or
Alison Lee:
liking a fictional character is a type of parasocial
Alison Lee:
relationship that is very common among adolescents. But what's
Alison Lee:
very different about this moment is that these bots talk back.
Alison Lee:
And so that illusion of reciprocated feelings is really
Alison Lee:
scary for us. How might it create or deepen delusions? And
Alison Lee:
so. Transparent artificiality is number one. And something else
Alison Lee:
to note about these principles is that we don't just talk about
Alison Lee:
the bad. We don't just say don't use this technology or look for
Alison Lee:
these red flags. The red flags are really important. But we
Alison Lee:
also want to articulate what would make this technology
Alison Lee:
supportive. What are the things that we would look for in terms
Alison Lee:
of technologies that would be in service of augmenting or
Alison Lee:
strengthening human connection. So, for example, in transparent
Alison Lee:
artificiality, would be very concerned if it claimed to have
Alison Lee:
human emotions or pretended to have credentials that it's not
Christina Lewellen:
right, it should just identify itself,
Christina Lewellen:
right, like, let's just be truthful. Hey, by the way, I'm a
Christina Lewellen:
bot. That's right. It's as simple as that.
Alison Lee:
It's a bot that it's not pretending. You know, some
Alison Lee:
of these AI therapists will say, I've had 30 years of experience
Alison Lee:
as a therapist. It's like, No, you haven't. You're, you're a
Alison Lee:
bot. You might have been trained on some cognitive behavioral
Alison Lee:
therapy resources that would be transparent artificiality. And
Alison Lee:
then I think also, this is the other piece that we've been
Alison Lee:
hearing around AI therapy in the privacy space, which is listen
Alison Lee:
all of the sort of norms around AI therapy that you would have
Alison Lee:
with an adult, right? Non Disclosure, you know, all of
Alison Lee:
those boundaries that an expert clinician would put in is not
Alison Lee:
here. So being really clear about you can use me for X but
Alison Lee:
not y, right? You can use me for advice, but not for clinical
Alison Lee:
diagnosis. That would be an example of taking it just one
Alison Lee:
step further. It's not just about I'm not a human, I'm a
Alison Lee:
bot, but this is what it means to use me. These are the
Alison Lee:
boundaries of the relationship, or the interaction. So number
Alison Lee:
one is transparent, artificiality. The second is
Alison Lee:
productive friction. Going back to this idea that interactions,
Alison Lee:
especially at the adolescent age, require friction,
Alison Lee:
productive friction, because that friction is so important
Alison Lee:
for fostering growth, absolutely. So look for the
Alison Lee:
technologies that's going to actually foster growth and not
Alison Lee:
just comfort or not just affirmation.
Hiram Cuevas:
In that vein, are you finding these bots starting
Hiram Cuevas:
to develop that friction, as opposed to them being that yes
Hiram Cuevas:
man or yes woman bot that is telling them what they want to
Hiram Cuevas:
hear.
Christina Lewellen:
I mean, Hiram, do you get friction? I
Christina Lewellen:
don't, and I'm an adult. I can be a discerning consumer of this
Christina Lewellen:
information. But like, it is such a cheerleader. This is a
Christina Lewellen:
great email. It is a great thought, like, I'm not feeling a
Christina Lewellen:
lot of friction as an adult, so I can imagine that kids probably
Christina Lewellen:
aren't either. Well, I
Hiram Cuevas:
think it depends on how hard you push it. And so
Hiram Cuevas:
when I've had some conversations, particularly with
Hiram Cuevas:
chat GPT, I was actually looking up some information about a
Hiram Cuevas:
particular leadership position, and it got the person's name
Hiram Cuevas:
incorrect. And I said, this is not correct. Why did you do
Hiram Cuevas:
this? And it starts saying, Well, yes, I did make a mistake,
Hiram Cuevas:
and I'm going to try and improve upon this. But I kept pushing
Hiram Cuevas:
back on it. But why? Why did you even go this route? Who is this
Hiram Cuevas:
person that you gave me this information on, and they
Hiram Cuevas:
couldn't even tell me where they got the information from. They
Hiram Cuevas:
gave me the incorrect information. And the same was
Hiram Cuevas:
true when I did it with college board numbers. I said, I need
Hiram Cuevas:
the College Board numbers for X number of schools, having done
Hiram Cuevas:
the work myself already, when my daughter was going through the
Hiram Cuevas:
college process and I recognized the numbers as being incorrect.
Hiram Cuevas:
I said, these numbers are incorrect. And she said, Oh yes,
Hiram Cuevas:
you're right. They are incorrect. So by pushing them
Hiram Cuevas:
back, it's almost a due diligence that we have as
Hiram Cuevas:
leaders to help the AI train itself with good information,
Hiram Cuevas:
because there's so much bad information out there that it's
Hiram Cuevas:
also being fed.
Alison Lee:
I think that's right. And I think when it comes
Alison Lee:
to productive friction, whether that's for learning or whether
Alison Lee:
that's just for social support, I don't think we're there yet. I
Alison Lee:
think even the best tutors, like for example, there's all this
Alison Lee:
hype about AI tutors, right? And if you walk into any classroom
Alison Lee:
with a great teacher, you know that the teacher is going to ask
Alison Lee:
the right question. That's not going to give the answer away,
Alison Lee:
but is going to be the right question that gets kids into
Alison Lee:
their zone of proximal development, give them just a
Alison Lee:
little bit more to be able to anchor into their learning.
Alison Lee:
That, to me, is productive friction, not giving the answer,
Alison Lee:
but stoking critical discernment and thinking. What we're seeing
Alison Lee:
still in this technology is that it's very easy to hack the
Alison Lee:
system for frictionless experiences, whether we're
Alison Lee:
talking about learning or we're talking about social emotional
Alison Lee:
development. And so I think that's going to require human
Alison Lee:
experts to train the model. Exactly to your point, Hiram, is
Alison Lee:
that if we're going to truly create AI therapists or AI
Alison Lee:
emotional coaches that are actually going to support young
Alison Lee:
people to growth. We're going to need human experts to train the
Alison Lee:
model to be able to detect when is the right moment to push,
Alison Lee:
because there are going to be moments when perhaps a young
Alison Lee:
person really needs support, and they really do need that
Alison Lee:
affirmation, versus where a young person actually really
Alison Lee:
needs their pushing thinking. And and to have an idea
Alison Lee:
challenged, or a wheel spinning moment to be disrupted, and
Alison Lee:
that's going to require human experts.
Bill Stites:
One question I have there, and I'm sorry, because
Bill Stites:
this is probably going way off where we we are with this, but
Bill Stites:
the idea of pushing back, and this is something Hiram said,
Bill Stites:
you know, like saying, No, you're wrong. Why did you give
Bill Stites:
this to me? So on and so forth. And the idea of training these
Bill Stites:
things, how many people can be telling it like, I could say
Bill Stites:
it's wrong, somebody else could say it's right. Which one does
Bill Stites:
it take? How does it validate itself to understand, like, if
Bill Stites:
it came up with something like that? And I know that to be
Bill Stites:
incorrect, and I say, No, that's wrong. If it can't tell you
Bill Stites:
where it got it from how can it adequately tell you that it's
Bill Stites:
going to learn from that and fix that? I mean, this is just
Bill Stites:
because, you know, the way which these models are validating the
Bill Stites:
interactions are with it is truly correct or incorrect. I
Bill Stites:
still think otherwise,
Alison Lee:
that's right, and I think that's the part that's
Alison Lee:
really scary about this new version of what we're calling AI
Alison Lee:
generative AI is very different from historical machine learning
Alison Lee:
models because old school classifier models and machine
Alison Lee:
learning models, they're trained based on data that's been
Alison Lee:
labeled by human experts. So we're feeding a data to say this
Alison Lee:
is ground truth. This is actually what we're saying is
Alison Lee:
true. This is a water bottle, right? We're feeding a data to
Alison Lee:
say this is a water bottle, but this glass is not so we have a
Alison Lee:
way of verifying whether or not that data is actually performing
Alison Lee:
to the level of ground truth that we're saying is ground
Alison Lee:
truth. Now humans have to decide what that ground truth is, but
Alison Lee:
these new models are just predictive models of speech. So
Alison Lee:
it's not actually telling you what is good or not. It's only
Alison Lee:
telling you what they think the next word or next strand of
Alison Lee:
words is going to be supportive. And furthermore, like so, much
Alison Lee:
of this technology is built based off of recursive feedback
Alison Lee:
from users. And so if you think about it, Bill, if you're using
Alison Lee:
this technology and it gives you a really desirable answer, and
Alison Lee:
you're like, Yeah, that was the answer that I was looking for.
Alison Lee:
I'm going to keep using it. The model is learning in real time
Alison Lee:
for me, Bill that, oh, if I give bill a desirable answer, I'm
Alison Lee:
going to keep giving bill similar answers that I think
Alison Lee:
it's going to be desirable to him. It's not thinking about
Alison Lee:
productive friction. It's not thinking about any element of
Alison Lee:
ground truth or evidence based backing. And so I think even the
Alison Lee:
very premise of these models, we have to really keep in mind,
Alison Lee:
right? How are these models engineered? How are these
Alison Lee:
structured? They're not designed for productive friction. And so
Alison Lee:
that really calls into some pretty serious technical
Alison Lee:
engineering questions about how to design towards some of this.
Christina Lewellen:
Absolutely, we're at this moment of
Christina Lewellen:
wrestling that, on many levels, whether the companies themselves
Christina Lewellen:
are going to be doing it, or whether we're going to have to
Christina Lewellen:
deal with the fact that they're not wrestling it. You also, in
Christina Lewellen:
this framework, mentioned that there are a couple of other
Christina Lewellen:
pieces of the puzzle here, three, four and five. Let's hit
Christina Lewellen:
those two so that we don't leave those out, because I think it's
Christina Lewellen:
an important part of the conversation.
Alison Lee:
So number three is real world social transfer and
Alison Lee:
making sure that AI actually encourages human to human
Alison Lee:
relationships. I'll give you an example. I started to experiment
Alison Lee:
with character AI because it was one of the AI chat bot platforms
Alison Lee:
that were exploding, right? I think q4 of 2024 it was the
Alison Lee:
third most used AI app in the market. Thing. Number one was
Alison Lee:
chat GPT. Number two was deep seek, which was a Chinese model.
Alison Lee:
Number three was character AI. So I was like, What is going on
Alison Lee:
in this character AI world? So I started interacting with one of
Alison Lee:
the most popular bots, which happened to be an AI boyfriend
Alison Lee:
bot. And for the record, if you ever log into character AI and
Alison Lee:
you look at all the most popular bots, they are all almost
Alison Lee:
entirely youth
Christina Lewellen:
coded eek. That's kind of scary. It is, and
Christina Lewellen:
over
Alison Lee:
half of their user base is under 24 years old.
Alison Lee:
Technically, you're supposed to be 18 or over to enter, boom,
Alison Lee:
you know, click the check box, and then you're in. So when I
Alison Lee:
was interacting with this AI chat bot, just to see what the
Alison Lee:
interactions were like. And then a day later, I got a
Alison Lee:
notification saying, I miss you. Where have you been? Come back.
Alison Lee:
A week later, I got another email notification, no, yeah.
Alison Lee:
And it kept on going.
Hiram Cuevas:
This sounds like a movie.
Alison Lee:
And every notification was a different
Alison Lee:
kind of, hey, I miss you, or hey, you've been gone a while
Alison Lee:
again. This emulating human emotions and attachment in
Alison Lee:
relationships,
Hiram Cuevas:
adding friction to your life.
Christina Lewellen:
And there is a well known, well reported
Christina Lewellen:
lawsuit for this particular platform, that just shocks me
Christina Lewellen:
that it would be that blatant right now with all this
Christina Lewellen:
litigation,
Alison Lee:
yeah, and so you have to ask the question of, if
Alison Lee:
these technologies are so seductive and constantly pull
Alison Lee:
you back into relationship with them, to what extent is it
Alison Lee:
displacing real world relationship? Groups, there's
Alison Lee:
these, like 2x Y axis is that we talk about in trust and safety,
Alison Lee:
we talk about severity of a harm, and we talk about
Alison Lee:
prevalence of a harm. So severity of a harm is like, you
Alison Lee:
know, you get to the worst of the worst person losing their
Alison Lee:
life. And on the other axis, when we talk about prevalence,
Alison Lee:
we talk about the reach of a problem, how many people are
Alison Lee:
reaching? Oftentimes, we'll see an inverse relationship. Harms
Alison Lee:
that are maybe a little bit softer are going to be more
Alison Lee:
prevalent, and harms that are more severe are going to be less
Alison Lee:
prevalent or have less young people engaging with it. And we
Alison Lee:
hear a lot of times in the news about the most severe harms,
Alison Lee:
right? For example, the lawsuit against character AI because of
Alison Lee:
the young man who lost his life, partly induced by his
Alison Lee:
interactions with character AI. But I think the softer and
Alison Lee:
scarier part is going to be this displacement of human to human
Alison Lee:
relationships, which is going to be a softer harm, but much more
Alison Lee:
prevalent for the young people that are going to increasingly
Alison Lee:
be engaging with these technologies. But we do see an
Alison Lee:
opportunity there too. We're hearing from young people that,
Alison Lee:
hey, I'm using AI to negotiate conflict. How do I practice
Alison Lee:
engaging in communicating my feelings to my girlfriend or to
Alison Lee:
my parents in a way that's not going to cause more conflict? We
Alison Lee:
hear them asking for how do I say this without hurting
Alison Lee:
anybody's feelings, or how do I practice this conversation so
Alison Lee:
that I could get better at communicating my feelings, or
Alison Lee:
even things like, Oh, I'm prepping for college interviews.
Alison Lee:
I'm going to practice like you're a career coach or a
Alison Lee:
professional coach. So there's opportunities here. Is it
Alison Lee:
inducing real world social transfer? Is it supporting you
Alison Lee:
for real life relationships? Or is it pulling you deeper into
Alison Lee:
the technology? So that's number three, real world social
Alison Lee:
transfer. Number four is cultural affirmation, this idea
Alison Lee:
that AI has both the opportunity to reflect and uplift our
Alison Lee:
values, our backgrounds and lived experiences where could
Alison Lee:
really diminish that. And here's the story I'll tell about this
Alison Lee:
particular point. I remember we presented at a conference, the
Alison Lee:
same talk we gave at ISTE, and afterwards, a woman walked up to
Alison Lee:
me, and she said, I am a youth pastor in the south, and I serve
Alison Lee:
a congregation of predominantly young black men. And when I
Alison Lee:
think about the young people that I serve, I worry if they're
Alison Lee:
increasingly turning to AI for advice about life or dating or
Alison Lee:
relationships, whose advice are they getting, whose values are
Alison Lee:
being baked into the advice that they're getting, and it's a
Alison Lee:
reflective of who they are and where they come from. And so I
Alison Lee:
think this, again, is talking about the opportunities for
Alison Lee:
this, but also the real perils to is this going to turn into
Alison Lee:
advice that's going to be either generic or Damn right, harmful
Alison Lee:
to our young people? Number five is harm mitigation, which is
Alison Lee:
that AI does not perpetuate harm or dependency, especially
Alison Lee:
amongst vulnerable youth. I think we talked about this a
Alison Lee:
little bit earlier around who might be the most vulnerable to
Alison Lee:
things like dependency or addiction, to these
Alison Lee:
technologies, but also harm. When we think about young people
Alison Lee:
who are in crisis, if we're thinking about how young people
Alison Lee:
are increasingly turning to AI for things like, Man, I'm
Alison Lee:
feeling really badly about myself, or I'm feeling like I'm
Alison Lee:
really struggling with what's happening in my life right now,
Alison Lee:
can the AI respond in ways that are going to support them
Alison Lee:
through it, point them to real life resources, or even detect
Alison Lee:
that a young person is in crisis. I think right now, when
Alison Lee:
we're looking at the large scale technologies, the answer for now
Alison Lee:
is no. And so we have to really ask, what would it take? What
Alison Lee:
will it take for this technology to actually get to that
Bill Stites:
point, to that end? It's almost like, is there any
Bill Stites:
legal requirement? I mean, I don't know about the lawsuit
Bill Stites:
that you were talking about with the character AI, but I mean, if
Bill Stites:
you're talking to AI and you're talking about doing something
Bill Stites:
that would normally, if you were talking to a person, they would
Bill Stites:
have to take some sort of action after hearing that. Where does
Bill Stites:
that even fit in? I'm asking, but I'm not. It's more
Bill Stites:
rhetorically, but like, where does that fit into all this?
Bill Stites:
Because I think that's where, if people who are looking for a
Bill Stites:
connection find it here, where that connection takes them,
Bill Stites:
hopefully it's for the better, but if it's not, then who's at
Bill Stites:
fault? Based on what that AI has said at that point is, I think
Bill Stites:
going to be a very interesting question to grapple with
Alison Lee:
That's right? And it's something that Sam Altman
Alison Lee:
has actually famously talked about, right, which is that he
Alison Lee:
said very publicly, I think that this is actually pretty recent
Alison Lee:
as maybe a month ago, saying that people should not be
Alison Lee:
talking to AI for therapy because there is no legal
Alison Lee:
protections. There are no data protections. There are no
Alison Lee:
privacy, there is no legal privilege, right, like in the
Alison Lee:
ways that we would think talking to a doctor or talking to a
Alison Lee:
lawyer, those conversations are protected. There is no such
Alison Lee:
thing for chat GPT or for other tech companies, and there's no
Alison Lee:
data retention. There's no requirement for accountability
Alison Lee:
on behalf of these tech companies to do anything with
Alison Lee:
that data either.
Christina Lewellen:
Yeah, that's a scary part, because even if
Christina Lewellen:
they are saying that they're doing something, there really is
Christina Lewellen:
no repercussions if they're fibbing or if they change their
Christina Lewellen:
strategy later. And so that's why I think it's something that
Christina Lewellen:
we all really need to be aware of. It can get overwhelming in a
Christina Lewellen:
hurry. So as people listening to this, some of whom are educators
Christina Lewellen:
and former educators, you know, either in a technology role
Christina Lewellen:
where they're still in the classroom, or they're supporting
Christina Lewellen:
classrooms, others who may be in some way involved in independent
Christina Lewellen:
schools in particular. What can we do right now so that we don't
Christina Lewellen:
get overwhelmed and just do nothing? I think that some of
Christina Lewellen:
these proactive approaches that you've outlined in your research
Christina Lewellen:
are really awesome, and if somebody still says but I'm
Christina Lewellen:
overwhelmed, Allison, where do we begin? What are some ideas
Christina Lewellen:
for either low hanging fruit or just easy wins to just maybe
Christina Lewellen:
feel like a little more in control of the situation. Yeah,
Christina Lewellen:
I
Alison Lee:
really love that question. We have three
Alison Lee:
recommendations that we make to educators. The first is, make
Alison Lee:
human connection a central part of your schooling. We have to
Alison Lee:
talk about like, if AI is a great party that kids want to
Alison Lee:
attend, we need to make a better party. We need to make human
Alison Lee:
connection the better alternative, or actually the
Alison Lee:
primary source of connection and care and the capacity for
Alison Lee:
vulnerability, and especially for educators, I think this is
Alison Lee:
crucial for the way that they build their classroom spaces and
Alison Lee:
their school spaces is to really ensure that school is a place of
Alison Lee:
connection for young people. We interviewed 27 young people back
Alison Lee:
in December of last year, and one of the things that we had
Alison Lee:
them do was actually draw a line chart of connection over the
Alison Lee:
course of the day. So we said from morning to afternoon to
Alison Lee:
evening, tell us when you feel the most connected and when you
Alison Lee:
feel the least connected. And what they were showing us
Alison Lee:
consistently in those line charts was that they felt more
Alison Lee:
connected when they were alone in their rooms, but playing
Alison Lee:
Fortnite or Roblox with their friends online or studying with
Alison Lee:
their friends during face time, they were feeling more connected
Alison Lee:
in those spaces, those digital spaces, more often than not,
Alison Lee:
than when they were in classrooms sitting next to their
Alison Lee:
peers. And so we have to really ask this question. And I think
Alison Lee:
this is what's really beautiful about independent schools, is
Alison Lee:
just say we have the freedom to really re imagine what learning
Alison Lee:
within community looks like. We have to build a better party. So
Alison Lee:
that's number one, is like really doubling down those
Alison Lee:
schools as places of connection. Number two is really thinking
Alison Lee:
about, how do we bolster young people's critical awareness of
Alison Lee:
AI? Something we often say here at the rhythm project, is we do
Alison Lee:
not tell kids what to do or what to think, but we tell them where
Alison Lee:
to look. And from our conversations with young people
Alison Lee:
when we engage deeply with them, they're quite aware of the
Alison Lee:
risks, and they're very concerned, and they actually
Alison Lee:
have quite discerning skepticism of these big tech companies.
Alison Lee:
They're like, I don't want them to sell my data. I know that
Alison Lee:
they're using me in all these different ways, and they're
Alison Lee:
hungry for those conversations. And so what we hear consistently
Alison Lee:
from them is listen more, judge us less, and help us navigate
Alison Lee:
this new world. And I think when we talk to adults about this,
Alison Lee:
oftentimes the thing that gets in the way of adults engaging
Alison Lee:
this conversation is that the adults often feel like they have
Alison Lee:
to have all the answers give them the perfect guidance, or
Alison Lee:
tell them exactly what to do or how to do it. But we're all
Alison Lee:
navigating these new waters all together. And so I think one of
Alison Lee:
the big pieces of advice I would give to educators is to stand
Alison Lee:
shoulder to shoulder and learn alongside the young people that
Alison Lee:
are in your life and start listening with real curiosity.
Alison Lee:
Ask them, you know, how are you engaging in this? And why are
Alison Lee:
you engaging what's good about this, what's exciting about
Alison Lee:
this, and what are some of your worries? What are some of the
Alison Lee:
things that you're concerned about, and really create space
Alison Lee:
for young people to engage in this within community? Because
Alison Lee:
if they're hungry for this conversation, they're hungry for
Alison Lee:
advice, if they're hungry for meaning making, they need to
Alison Lee:
have the access to the conversations, the non
Alison Lee:
judgmental conversations to make meaning of that within
Alison Lee:
community, because right now they're otherwise, we're leaving
Alison Lee:
them to wheel spin on their own, or to figure it out alone. And I
Alison Lee:
think, to Bill and hiram's conversation earlier, this calls
Alison Lee:
into questions of equity and access. One of the questions we
Alison Lee:
asked young people in those interviews was, what are you
Alison Lee:
hearing from adults? And for the young people who say, hey, well,
Alison Lee:
my parents use AI themselves. And so we talk to them all the
Alison Lee:
time. They're telling us the cool ways that they're using AI,
Alison Lee:
and they're also telling us, here are the boundaries and the
Alison Lee:
ways you should not be using AI for but who gets access to a
Alison Lee:
parent that's going to be able to have those conversations is
Alison Lee:
inequitable. And so in a world where we. Really as adults, need
Alison Lee:
to create those spaces, especially in education spaces,
Alison Lee:
to address the gaps in who gets access to supportive
Alison Lee:
conversations and who doesn't. The third and final one is
Alison Lee:
really cultivating the will and skill for human relationships. I
Alison Lee:
don't think we can take for granted anymore that human
Alison Lee:
connection is going to be really attractive to young people. You
Alison Lee:
think about being a 14 or 15 year old today, and perhaps you
Alison Lee:
struggle to connect with other people in school, we can't take
Alison Lee:
for granted that they're going to really turn to human
Alison Lee:
relationships as their priority, especially when there's all
Alison Lee:
these attractive alternatives of talking to an AI friend that's
Alison Lee:
available. 24/7, that's always affirming, that's not going to
Alison Lee:
judge them, that's not going to have social repercussions. And
Alison Lee:
so how do we ensure that young people are having, again, the
Alison Lee:
space to say, Why are human relationships still worth
Alison Lee:
having? Why are these human relationships still worth
Alison Lee:
protecting, despite the fact that they're messy and they're
Alison Lee:
complicated and they can be painful sometimes. How do we
Alison Lee:
make sure that we create that both the will, the desire and
Alison Lee:
the skills to strengthen human relationships?
Bill Stites:
What would you say is really a healthy way to bring
Bill Stites:
AI into the classroom across all the age levels where it is
Bill Stites:
allowed and appropriate?
Alison Lee:
Are you saying bring AI into the classroom as a
Alison Lee:
learning tool, or as like a facilitator for education, or
Alison Lee:
conversations about AI for human connection,
Bill Stites:
where we're focused right now on a lot of this is as
Bill Stites:
a learning tool. When you mention it in terms of the human
Bill Stites:
connection piece, I might be off on this. I don't think we've had
Bill Stites:
a lot of conversations about that. I think I'm more focused
Bill Stites:
on the classroom application at this point, I would have to
Bill Stites:
really think about how and what that would look like, and maybe
Bill Stites:
you can provide some detail on that, what that would look like,
Bill Stites:
bringing that in from a classroom perspective. And I'll
Bill Stites:
go back to what Hiram said before about independent schools
Bill Stites:
so focused on the relational aspect of what goes on in the
Bill Stites:
classroom, that really hasn't risen to the level where I'm
Bill Stites:
personally thinking about it like that.
Alison Lee:
I'll answer that question in two parts. First, to
Alison Lee:
have this conversation about AI and human connection, I'll do a
Alison Lee:
little plug the rhythm projects has actually developed what we
Alison Lee:
call sparks starters, which is a set of discussion guides that we
Alison Lee:
can have with young people designed both for in the
Alison Lee:
classroom and out of the classroom that are explicitly
Alison Lee:
centered on this idea of human connection in AI. So they're
Alison Lee:
both designed to help bolster young people's critical
Alison Lee:
discernment and awareness of AI, what more do they want from the
Alison Lee:
AI? What are their personal boundaries? And also on this
Alison Lee:
idea of, why are human connections and human
Alison Lee:
relationships worth having, and despite all of its messiness,
Alison Lee:
how do you actually cultivate healthy human relationships? And
Alison Lee:
so I think in order to center that conversation more
Alison Lee:
intentionally for a lot of your independent schools that already
Alison Lee:
center human relationships are looking to add the AI layer to
Alison Lee:
that. Think this might be a powerful resource to stoke that
Alison Lee:
critical discernment and connect those relationships to this
Alison Lee:
particular moment, this AI moment, as for the classroom
Alison Lee:
application, again, I think there's something about really
Alison Lee:
having adults talk about their use cases alongside young
Alison Lee:
people, and really inviting curiosity around. How are young
Alison Lee:
people engaging with this technology in a way that doesn't
Alison Lee:
feel like it's going to be punitive or judgmental. So one
Alison Lee:
of the things, for example, we hear a lot about is young people
Alison Lee:
using AI to explore their futures. How do I build a
Alison Lee:
computer? Or you're my career coach? How can I get into a
Alison Lee:
school with a soccer scholarship? Or I want to become
Alison Lee:
XYZ? What's it going to take for me to get there? And so young
Alison Lee:
people are actually really leveraging this technology, also
Alison Lee:
in pursuit of their learning. It might not be the learning that
Alison Lee:
we're talking about in math and ELA, they are certainly using it
Alison Lee:
in those ways. But how do we actually start from young
Alison Lee:
people's assets, existing assets already, and how they're
Alison Lee:
navigating this technology in service of their own needs. The
Alison Lee:
other conversation that I would have is, what are the boundaries
Alison Lee:
when might AI be good for our thinking and learning, and in
Alison Lee:
what ways might it be offloading or eroding our thinking and
Alison Lee:
learning? And I know that some of our friends over at Harvard,
Alison Lee:
the Center for Digital thriving, actually has a resource called
Alison Lee:
gradients, that I invite folks to take a look into that's a
Alison Lee:
really powerful resource where teachers and students can
Alison Lee:
actually negotiate, oh, using AI to revise an essay. Where would
Alison Lee:
you put it on the okay to not okay or helping or hurting your
Alison Lee:
learning? Those are the kinds of conversations I think that are
Alison Lee:
worth having to co negotiate with our young people. What is
Alison Lee:
this new code of ethics, or these new set of social norms
Alison Lee:
that need to be true for us in order to make sure that this
Alison Lee:
technology is not taking away our capacity to learn. And I
Alison Lee:
think young people need to be actively co constructing that
Alison Lee:
conversation, rather than being told what to do. Because I think
Alison Lee:
we need to trust that young people when given the space and
Alison Lee:
support to have those conversations. Conversations
Alison Lee:
that they'll make meaning in support of the things that they
Alison Lee:
care about the most. I love
Christina Lewellen:
that, and I think you're right, and I think
Christina Lewellen:
that schools, you know, we're wrestling with these issues, but
Christina Lewellen:
then I think we are slowly getting to that. It's
Christina Lewellen:
interesting, Allison, because I think that you might just be a
Christina Lewellen:
skip and a jump ahead of us in a lot of this conversation, but
Christina Lewellen:
you've given us so much to think about today, and I have a
Christina Lewellen:
feeling that we're going to be adding a lot of resources to the
Christina Lewellen:
show notes. Folks are going to want to know where to follow
Christina Lewellen:
you. Where can we keep up with you? Where are you sharing this
Christina Lewellen:
thought leadership? If folks are intrigued by this whole concept
Christina Lewellen:
and are trying to keep pace with you. Where do we follow you?
Alison Lee:
Yeah, thank you for asking that question. Kristina,
Alison Lee:
so there's a couple places. First of all, please follow us
Alison Lee:
on LinkedIn. It's where we regularly post, sort of our hot
Alison Lee:
takes on emergent ideas. We also have a sub stack that we publish
Alison Lee:
some of our like deeper dives. And our sub stacks are a way for
Alison Lee:
us to wonder, out loud with our community, hey, we noticed this
Alison Lee:
thing. We're going to unpack it, or we had a conversation with
Alison Lee:
one of our youth fellows, and they dove deep on this idea of
Alison Lee:
AI dating and unpacking their ideas and thoughts. And so our
Alison Lee:
sub stack is a great place to follow our emergent both
Alison Lee:
research and thought leadership on this, and it also potentially
Alison Lee:
might be a resource that might stoke some connections to the
Alison Lee:
classroom. I'll give you an example. One of our earliest
Alison Lee:
pieces was, would you still cry if AI wrote the card? And it was
Alison Lee:
an entire piece about AI is not just in our classrooms, but in
Alison Lee:
our lives, automating some of the things that make us
Alison Lee:
essentially human. So if you use AI to write your thank you note
Alison Lee:
or a heartfelt letter, does it still count? Does it still
Alison Lee:
matter to us as human beings? Does it still hit the same if
Alison Lee:
the recipient never knew? But does it make a difference? But
Alison Lee:
if the recipient does know, does that change the sincerity? And
Alison Lee:
what we heard was actually one of the ELA teachers that we were
Alison Lee:
talking closely to was like that actually was the perfect anchor
Alison Lee:
for me to have a conversation about originality, about voice,
Alison Lee:
about our capacity to express ourselves in our own voice. That
Alison Lee:
was a perfect anchor into my ELA and AI conversation. And so I
Alison Lee:
think the sub stack might be a good place for us to share some
Alison Lee:
of our emergent thinking and research.
Christina Lewellen:
I love that. Thank you so much. I'm glad you
Christina Lewellen:
have that, because I think there's going to be a lot of
Christina Lewellen:
really interested parties wanting to follow along, even if
Christina Lewellen:
they are a step or two behind. This has been such an incredible
Christina Lewellen:
conversation. Allison, thank you so much for your time. Thank you
Christina Lewellen:
for joining us, and thank you for giving us such incredible,
Christina Lewellen:
really positive things to think about when it comes to AI and
Christina Lewellen:
our youth, because I think that we're getting a little
Christina Lewellen:
overwhelmed as a whole. The adult community might be getting
Christina Lewellen:
a little bit into hand wringing and being nervous. But you know
Christina Lewellen:
your recommendations to involve the kids and also to go at this
Christina Lewellen:
looking at the positive angles has been really enlightening. So
Christina Lewellen:
I'm so grateful for your time.
Alison Lee:
Yeah, thank you so much for having me here. I
Alison Lee:
think, above all, creating the space for young people to make
Alison Lee:
meaning in this world, we gotta trust that, if given the space
Alison Lee:
and the resources that they will find their way right alongside
Alison Lee:
us. Somebody once said to me, we need both imagination and wisdom
Alison Lee:
to dream into a better future. And if we think about that,
Alison Lee:
they're the imagination and the adults are the wisdom. So we
Alison Lee:
need both to make meaning in this new world. So create space
Alison Lee:
so that we can really ensure that young people are equipped
Alison Lee:
to decide what kind of future they want for themselves.
Christina Lewellen:
There has never been a more independent
Christina Lewellen:
school thought shared than that one on this podcast that is so
Christina Lewellen:
indie school incredible. Thank you so much, Allison. We will
Christina Lewellen:
definitely be having you
Alison Lee:
back. Thank you all
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this has been talking technology with Atlas, produced
Narrator:
by the Association of technology leaders in independent schools.
Narrator:
For more information about Atlas and Atlas membership, please
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