The Evolving Intersection of School Safety and Technology Leadership with Matt Varley and Marshall Singer
Presented by:
Ruvna's Marshall Singer and Orah's Matt Varley join the show to discuss the evolving intersection of school safety and technical leadership. The conversation highlights how technology directors are increasingly "quarterbacking" safety through real-time student tracking and Model Context Protocols to bridge data gaps between attendance records and physical locations.
Model Context Protocol (MCP)
Tron (1982)
Transcript
Peter Frank:
Matt,
Peter Frank:
welcome to Talking technology with ATLIS, the show that plugs
Peter Frank:
you into the important topics and trends for technology
Peter Frank:
leaders all through a unique Independent School lens. We'll
Peter Frank:
hear stories from technology directors and other special
Peter Frank:
guests from the Independent School community, and provide
Peter Frank:
you with focused learning and deep dive topics. Welcome to
Peter Frank:
Talking technology with ATLIS. I am Peter Frank, the interim CEO
Peter Frank:
of the Association of technology leaders in independent schools.
Bill Stites:
And I am Bill Stites, the Director of
Bill Stites:
Technology at Montclair Kimberly Academy in Montclair, New
Bill Stites:
Jersey.
Hiram Cuevas:
And I'm Hiram Cuevas, the Director of
Hiram Cuevas:
Information Systems and Academic Technology at St Christopher's
Hiram Cuevas:
school in Richmond, Virginia.
Peter Frank:
All right, guys, so we are recording this in April
Peter Frank:
for our constant listeners. You have not heard the last of
Peter Frank:
Christina. We do plan at least one more recording, if not more
Peter Frank:
with Christina at our annual conference coming up at the end
Peter Frank:
of April. But again, that will have passed by the time people
Peter Frank:
are listening to this, so you will hear Christina again. So I
Peter Frank:
know Bill and Hiram are pretty bummed, and we understand, but
Peter Frank:
we've got a great plan for this podcast. Moving forward. We're
Peter Frank:
excited about what's to come.
Bill Stites:
I've moved on. I'm past it.
Peter Frank:
Very good.
Bill Stites:
Christina, who I'm sorry, who we talking about.
Peter Frank:
That's she's right out of the gate.
Bill Stites:
I'm just kidding. It hurts. It hurts deep. This is
Bill Stites:
how I deal with my pain.
Hiram Cuevas:
I understand. You can only imagine what joy looks
Hiram Cuevas:
like.
Bill Stites:
No, I just Hiram and I are like the brothers that
Bill Stites:
always got to be poking at the sister. We can't go easy. We got
Bill Stites:
to go in hard.
Hiram Cuevas:
That's right, all right. Well, she'll appreciate
Hiram Cuevas:
that. So just be prepared. Peter, you know, put on the flak
Hiram Cuevas:
jacket, because everything comes to you now. Now it's brothers,
Hiram Cuevas:
right? That's a different flavor.
Bill Stites:
Yeah, exactly. We're coming after you next,
Bill Stites:
Peter, so get ready for it.
Peter Frank:
That's fine
Bill Stites:
live and in public. I didn't
Peter Frank:
have brothers growing up, so I look forward to
Peter Frank:
the Brotherhood.
Bill Stites:
Well you do now, so welcome to it.
Peter Frank:
Okay. Thank you. So I'm curious for y'all, we're at
Peter Frank:
the end of spring breaks. The schools have their spring breaks
Peter Frank:
in different times, but it's typically March, typically
Peter Frank:
April. So I was thinking to myself, so what is it between
Peter Frank:
now and we're beginning to wrap up the school year. What's your
Peter Frank:
focus? Just at a high level, what are you thinking? It's a
Peter Frank:
sprint.
Bill Stites:
The great planning is what I would refer to it as,
Bill Stites:
because this is where everything starts coming out of the
Bill Stites:
woodwork. You start hearing about all the things that people
Bill Stites:
are thinking about over the summer that they need to get
Bill Stites:
done. It's like, the worst of it, I think, is we're going to
Bill Stites:
be doing this minor construction project where we're going to be
Bill Stites:
ripping X, Y and Z out, and you now need to figure out what
Bill Stites:
you're doing. And it was like I would have been helpful to know
Bill Stites:
a little while ago when I was planning something else, you
Bill Stites:
know, but
Hiram Cuevas:
it's just the ebb and flow of it. I tend to be
Hiram Cuevas:
responsible for a lot of the standardized testing that's
Hiram Cuevas:
going on. So it's standardized testing season. So it's Erbs,
Hiram Cuevas:
it's SS, ATS, PSATs, it's AP exams and getting all the spaces
Hiram Cuevas:
up to par and making sure that your student software are all up
Hiram Cuevas:
to date, because children do such a good job the following
Hiram Cuevas:
directions. So it's just one of those things. You just got to
Hiram Cuevas:
constantly do a lot of that hand holding and make sure that
Hiram Cuevas:
they've got things ready.
Peter Frank:
Got you so we are far from Oh, good. The year is
Peter Frank:
wrapping up.
Bill Stites:
Nope, nope.
Hiram Cuevas:
Not even close. We'll have some battle wounds by
Hiram Cuevas:
the time we're done.
Peter Frank:
All right. I
Bill Stites:
have a hard time believing it was spring break,
Bill Stites:
because I feel like we're in like a second winter here right
Bill Stites:
now. It's like,
Peter Frank:
yes, yeah.
Bill Stites:
Hiram was talking about, like, the great pollening
Bill Stites:
Last night. It was like, into the 30s here. I was talking to
Bill Stites:
another school, like, a little further north, that they got
Bill Stites:
snow. I mean, I'm gonna sweat her again, because my air
Bill Stites:
conditioning unit in the room is set to go off of heat now and on
Bill Stites:
the AC. And I'm just, I'm betwixt, in between, and not
Bill Stites:
happy,
Peter Frank:
right? Yeah. Up in Northwest Pennsylvania, everyone
Peter Frank:
was out washing their cars Saturday, and then we had
Peter Frank:
flurries like Monday morning, and like leaving the window
Peter Frank:
open. Here is like, Oh, it was 30 last night, even though it
Peter Frank:
was 70 during the day
Hiram Cuevas:
three seasons of spring.
Bill Stites:
Yep.
Peter Frank:
So let's move on to our guests. We've got another
Peter Frank:
example here. We've been having ATLIS supporters and vendors
Peter Frank:
coming in for some really fantastic conversations about
Peter Frank:
some critical issues. So we are grateful for our guests. Today I
Peter Frank:
will introduce them both, and then I will call on one of you
Peter Frank:
to go ahead and introduce yourself, because we do love
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learning more about the people. So feel free to include some
Peter Frank:
backstory. We'd love to hear your journeys we have with us
Peter Frank:
today. Matt Varley, the CEO of aura, and Marshall singer, the
Peter Frank:
co founder and CEO of. Of ruvna, so Marshall, I'm going to ask
Peter Frank:
you to introduce yourself first. Why don't you just tell a little
Peter Frank:
bit about yourself your organization?
Marshall Singer:
Well, thank you so much, Peter. Really excited
Marshall Singer:
to be back for round two. I had a great conversation with Bill
Marshall Singer:
and Hiram last year. I think my name is Marshall singer. I'm the
Marshall Singer:
one of the co founders and the COO of ruvna. We're a safety
Marshall Singer:
operations platform that is focused on making independent
Marshall Singer:
schools safer, help them communicate with their
Marshall Singer:
communities, and, most importantly, understand
Marshall Singer:
throughout the entire day what's happening on campus. My journey
Marshall Singer:
is a little bit of a funny one, because this is actually the
Marshall Singer:
only real job I've ever had. Me and my co founders started the
Marshall Singer:
roof now in college, originating out of a project from high
Marshall Singer:
school, and it just kind of snowballed from there. We'd all
Marshall Singer:
been involved a lot with education when we were younger,
Marshall Singer:
and then, you know, we were all like, we don't want to get real
Marshall Singer:
jobs. That's kind of scary. But more importantly, we're like,
Marshall Singer:
you know, if we're going to fail or struggle, we want to do it on
Marshall Singer:
our own terms. And so 11 years later, Joey Jack and I are still
Marshall Singer:
waking up every day really excited about what we're
Marshall Singer:
building in ruvna And most importantly, the amazing
Marshall Singer:
community of schools that we're able to support throughout the
Marshall Singer:
country. That's great. Wow. From high school, what was the
Marshall Singer:
project in high school? Yeah, so basically, Joey and Jack are not
Marshall Singer:
one to build like a pizza Tracker app, and they built the
Marshall Singer:
first version of roofna, actually, as a response to the
Marshall Singer:
request from their high school, because they've known each other
Marshall Singer:
since then, basically saying, hey guys like, you know, after
Marshall Singer:
fire drill, the school said, Hey, could you help us here?
Marshall Singer:
We're really just struggling with what to do. And since they
Marshall Singer:
weren't ones to build just nothing or something for no
Marshall Singer:
purpose, they said, You know what? We'll give that a go. And
Marshall Singer:
then you blink, and it's like 1415, years later, and we're
Marshall Singer:
here. So it's a good ride. And what I wouldn't trade for the
Marshall Singer:
world, that's great. And Matt, we learned when we got on before
Marshall Singer:
we started here. So very late at night from mobile in Australia.
Marshall Singer:
Thank you so much for doing this for us under these
Marshall Singer:
circumstances. Why don't you go ahead and tell us a little bit
Marshall Singer:
about yourself. Great to be here, and thanks for having us,
Marshall Singer:
or if I start there, similar to Marshall, was started by Paul
Marshall Singer:
and Kurt
Matt Varley:
out of University College, and they'd both been
Matt Varley:
boarders together in boarding school, and had the challenge of
Matt Varley:
knowing where students are in a boarding school being complex,
Matt Varley:
either in boarding school off campus and set out to build or
Matt Varley:
to track students essentially throughout their boarding life
Matt Varley:
cycle, that's turned further into more of the day school side
Matt Varley:
of things, where similar challenges and scenarios occur,
Matt Varley:
both in the day school and the boarding school, and it's gone
Matt Varley:
from there. I suppose my background has always been in
Matt Varley:
tech. I'm a software engineer turned CEO and loving life at
Matt Varley:
this present in the AI era, where AI sort of brought me back
Matt Varley:
into the fold as a software engineer, where I've been out in
Matt Varley:
the abyss for the last five to seven years, but really enjoying
Matt Varley:
building products and bringing solutions to schools. Prior to
Matt Varley:
aura was in early years technology, so I've almost
Matt Varley:
followed the trajectory of my daughters, who are 11, eight and
Matt Varley:
six. They were first in early years care and now heading into
Matt Varley:
K 12 school education, and just passionate about how we're
Matt Varley:
looking after these students and how we're taking administration
Matt Varley:
away from the staff at school.
Peter Frank:
Great, yeah, and that's why we brought the two of
Peter Frank:
you together today, because we specifically wanted to talk
Peter Frank:
about safety in schools and the role now that the technology
Peter Frank:
director plays, I think about Bill and Hiram, when they
Peter Frank:
decided to move from educator into technology leader, I'm sure
Peter Frank:
it occurred to them, Hey, safety is something that I'll have to
Peter Frank:
deal with to some degree. But I don't know that you guys
Peter Frank:
anticipated the degree of concern, the degree of safety
Peter Frank:
and how significant a part of your role it has become. I have
Peter Frank:
to imagine you didn't think it was going to be this significant
Peter Frank:
as it is today, and it feels like it gets more and more
Peter Frank:
significant within your roles. So Matt, I'm curious, just to
Peter Frank:
get us started here, this kind of scope creep in the technology
Peter Frank:
director's role and how safety has been getting larger and
Peter Frank:
larger. Is this a sustainable thing? How sustainable is the
Peter Frank:
situation with the technology leader role and how safety is
Peter Frank:
becoming such a bigger factor?
Matt Varley:
Yeah, yeah. If you go back 1520, years ago, the
Matt Varley:
idea of safety was very physical and sat within either facilities
Matt Varley:
or safety officers, and as the world has just got more digital
Matt Varley:
and the technology has enabled more use cases within the
Matt Varley:
school, it's naturally moved across into being in that
Matt Varley:
technology director's role. We recently did a survey with ATLIS
Matt Varley:
where we polled over 100 IT directors, and what came back
Matt Varley:
was over 40% of those IT directors are now directly
Matt Varley:
responsible for safety decisions within their independent
Matt Varley:
schools, so 100% it's been scope creep in terms of the role, but
Matt Varley:
I think it makes sense. It makes a lot of sense for the IT
Matt Varley:
director and technology to be driving a lot. Lot of the what
Matt Varley:
could be within schools when it comes to school safety, because
Matt Varley:
the data and the systems and that single point of solution,
Matt Varley:
be it multiple point solutions, but all talking together is
Matt Varley:
absolutely critical to then enable that downstream physical
Matt Varley:
safety, be it sort of door access control or a 911 patch
Matt Varley:
through to emergency services. So it all kind of starts with
Matt Varley:
that single pane of glass and having that consolidated data
Matt Varley:
and technology solution to then drive the action downstream. I
Matt Varley:
think moving that into a non technology role, you're always
Matt Varley:
going to be hamstrung by how good your data is and where that
Matt Varley:
central point is to sort of drive it. So I think naturally
Matt Varley:
it's ended up there in the same way that beyond schools in
Matt Varley:
corporations, the role of the technology director has become
Matt Varley:
bigger than what it was 20 to 30 years ago. We're seeing in a lot
Matt Varley:
of schools that technology director start to report
Matt Varley:
directly into the principal, whereas in the past, it's either
Matt Varley:
been into a business manager or a CFO. I think that's
Matt Varley:
recognition across the world that this is super important and
Matt Varley:
is going to drive not only the nuts and bolts of technology,
Matt Varley:
but the strategy and almost the quarterbacking of how these
Matt Varley:
schools then drive school safety so really important.
Marshall Singer:
I think it's just a really natural outgrowth
Marshall Singer:
of information security. You know, the technology director
Marshall Singer:
has always been thinking about security. It just previously, in
Marshall Singer:
many ways, was information security, digital security. How
Marshall Singer:
are we going to keep our data protected? How we're going to
Marshall Singer:
keep our students safe online? So I think it's a very, very
Marshall Singer:
natural outpouring of that for directors of technology really
Marshall Singer:
heavily engaged in the safety process at the end of the day. I
Marshall Singer:
think what's also important to recognize here is that while
Marshall Singer:
directors of technology are now much more involved in the
Marshall Singer:
process, I think at its best, they are owning it together with
Marshall Singer:
a Director of Physical security. So I think it's bringing
Marshall Singer:
knowledge, bringing specialty and bringing that ability to
Marshall Singer:
understand from my side of the table, what can we do to support
Marshall Singer:
what you need on your side of the table? Vice versa. And I
Marshall Singer:
think in many ways, the increasing role for directors of
Marshall Singer:
technology is kind of a pushback against the late 90s, early
Marshall Singer:
2000s where, I think in this kind of a bit of a knee jerk
Marshall Singer:
response, a lot of folks just bought stuff and said, implement
Marshall Singer:
it, figure it out, just do it. And pushed and pushed to just
Marshall Singer:
buy a lot of things. And so now you're realizing, we're all
Marshall Singer:
realizing, as our world map, exactly as you said, becomes
Marshall Singer:
more digitally enabled, and every part of it is about
Marshall Singer:
understanding top to bottom data flows, etc, you're seeing a much
Marshall Singer:
more natural balance come into play, which I think is why
Marshall Singer:
you're seeing some really good next steps and really
Marshall Singer:
interesting ideas coming forward about how to make our schools
Marshall Singer:
safer, how to do all this in a way that doesn't throw off but
Marshall Singer:
makes a lot of independent schools
Peter Frank:
safe.
Hiram Cuevas:
So what's interesting here at St
Hiram Cuevas:
Christopher is we had an opportunity to move some offices
Hiram Cuevas:
around, and our director of security and I share a suite
Hiram Cuevas:
together, and so as a result, we are in constant communication
Hiram Cuevas:
about physical security and cyber security, and it is a
Hiram Cuevas:
great dialog that goes back and forth, because he's thinking of
Hiram Cuevas:
things that I don't necessarily think of. I'm thinking of things
Hiram Cuevas:
that he certainly isn't thinking about. And it has been a
Hiram Cuevas:
wonderful symbiosis of these two departments that you probably
Hiram Cuevas:
would not have foreseen 15 years ago easily, because it just grew
Hiram Cuevas:
naturally with the need for access control in terms of the
Hiram Cuevas:
physical security, and then being able to dovetail that
Hiram Cuevas:
well, now your IT director has got to be responsible for
Hiram Cuevas:
putting all that hardware in there and making sure all that
Hiram Cuevas:
data flows correctly, But we're constant conversation. And I
Hiram Cuevas:
think what has resulted from that is now the understanding
Hiram Cuevas:
that when you start looking at different products, how well do
Hiram Cuevas:
they now integrate with one another? Because you have all
Hiram Cuevas:
these software applications on the academic side, and people
Hiram Cuevas:
like Bill and myself are constantly making sure that
Hiram Cuevas:
things are integrating well and going back to your source of
Hiram Cuevas:
truth, we're doing the same thing now with a lot of the
Hiram Cuevas:
security products.
Bill Stites:
A lot of this goes back to me, or to my department,
Bill Stites:
I should say, because the joke I always have is, if it plugs in,
Bill Stites:
we're responsible for it. So I think about the way in which
Bill Stites:
that relationship with your physical plant, your security
Bill Stites:
office has evolved over time, and what those needs have been
Bill Stites:
and to the point that Hiram has made about the integration
Bill Stites:
piece, and it's really one of the questions that I want to
Bill Stites:
pose to you, is how you look at working with the various vendors
Bill Stites:
in the space, But in particular as a setup for that, the idea
Bill Stites:
that when we have an incident and we're dealing with an event,
Bill Stites:
and we have to look at the accountability pieces of that,
Bill Stites:
where this really came into focus for me within that
Bill Stites:
relationship was we would have a lockdown drill or some sort of
Bill Stites:
event. On campus where everyone was staying put, and we needed
Bill Stites:
to say that, you know, everyone needed to stay in place until we
Bill Stites:
were all clear. Well, the all clear was supposedly an email
Bill Stites:
address that all the teachers were using to send their
Bill Stites:
attendance to so that we could see that all the kids were
Bill Stites:
accounted for, but there was no cross check. A lot of those
Bill Stites:
emails came in after we said the event was clear, and there was
Bill Stites:
no ability to cross check that against the actual attendance as
Bill Stites:
far as what was going on. So when we took that step to bring
Bill Stites:
in, in this case, we brought in ruvna to work with on this. This
Bill Stites:
was the second problem that they had solved for us, but that real
Bill Stites:
time tracking and that integration between the platform
Bill Stites:
and our SIS gave us real time data as far as knowing who was
Bill Stites:
in the space. So how do you look at and work with your vendor
Bill Stites:
partners to make sure that we're using your system and the other
Bill Stites:
system or systems that we may be using to make sure that we are
Bill Stites:
really delivering on this promise, that we are keeping our
Bill Stites:
students and our employees safe and secure during an event.
Marshall Singer:
That's a great question, because I think a lot
Marshall Singer:
of schools sometimes don't realize we also have vendor
Marshall Singer:
partners. There are other people on the other side of the table
Marshall Singer:
that we rely on as well. A really good example is a partner
Marshall Singer:
we have called Moonlight. We work with them to help with the
Marshall Singer:
PSAP and 911 automation component for schools that use
Marshall Singer:
what we call our 911 connect product. So awesome. Just great
Marshall Singer:
question for that in mind. I think what's important to think
Marshall Singer:
about here is flexibility in that. I think when we look at
Marshall Singer:
legacy systems, Legacy ways people looked at it was always
Marshall Singer:
about getting schools locked in with hardware, getting them
Marshall Singer:
locked into a specific set of door panels or alarms or
Marshall Singer:
something that made it really hard to not only switch, but
Marshall Singer:
also to get it to work with other systems. So I think what
Marshall Singer:
you should be looking for is interoperability, but also
Marshall Singer:
flexibility. A good example of how we try to lean into that and
Marshall Singer:
design with that philosophy is in our web hook connections. So
Marshall Singer:
instead of building an integration for one platform, we
Marshall Singer:
sat back and said, Well, what does this need to do? And what
Marshall Singer:
it needs to do in this case is allow systems external to rubna
Marshall Singer:
to be able to provide notification, communication,
Marshall Singer:
things like that during an emergency or during an important
Marshall Singer:
event. And so instead of saying hey, we'll build that for one
Marshall Singer:
thing, let's just build an open ended system that can be used to
Marshall Singer:
integrate ad hoc as the school needs. So to your specific point
Marshall Singer:
bill, I think it comes to flexibility, and I think it also
Marshall Singer:
comes to understanding what schools are doing, and we really
Marshall Singer:
are able to do that in partnership with our schools, by
Marshall Singer:
understanding their end result, which is having a single pane of
Marshall Singer:
glass that is able to integrate with whatever pieces and things
Marshall Singer:
they're swapping in and out, so as to not lock them into
Marshall Singer:
something that they look back 10 years later and say, Hey, why do
Marshall Singer:
we still have this? This isn't working for us, enabling them to
Marshall Singer:
more easily iterate. As technology becomes more flexible
Marshall Singer:
and becomes more easy to integrate,
Matt Varley:
I think the days of hardware vendors and even
Matt Varley:
software vendors trying to lock the school or the customer into
Matt Varley:
their proprietary solution are well and done and very over. If
Matt Varley:
you need to lock something down, it is the school's data, it is
Matt Varley:
the school's workflows, and we are there to enable that. We
Matt Varley:
aren't to get in the way. I think there was this period of
Matt Varley:
time where SAS vendors really that moved from on prem into
Matt Varley:
SaaS tried to then take almost the school's data hostage and
Matt Varley:
hold them over a barrel for what they're doing. And I think those
Matt Varley:
days are over. We're seeing it with AI, and how easy it is to
Matt Varley:
be able to plug in external systems, to run workflows off
Matt Varley:
the back of things like Claude or anthropic and you know, the
Matt Varley:
more open the system is, to Marshall's point, the more value
Matt Varley:
the school can get out of that. So I think it's philosophical
Matt Varley:
being open from the start, be it sort of web hooks or MCPS with
Matt Varley:
AI APIs, if that's what it's needing to do. But we have
Matt Varley:
integrations with a lot of the school information systems, like
Matt Varley:
the Veracross and blackburns of the world, you know, and then
Matt Varley:
downstream with platforms like single wire, where they can
Matt Varley:
trigger alert systems or nine on one calls, similar to what
Matt Varley:
Marshall was saying. And doing that integration on behalf of
Matt Varley:
the school, I think is super important from a vendor's
Matt Varley:
perspective, because you can get more nuanced and control and
Matt Varley:
ensure that it's actually reliable at the point of either
Matt Varley:
emergency or drill, whatever they're needing to do. I think a
Matt Varley:
challenge that IT directors face at the moment is having to
Matt Varley:
maintain all of these integrations and having to
Matt Varley:
stitch it together themselves means that they become that
Matt Varley:
single point of reliability within the school. If they're
Matt Varley:
away on leave or they leave the school, a lot of that
Matt Varley:
intellectual property then sits in that person that wrote the
Matt Varley:
integration. So the ones that we can take away and make that
Matt Varley:
seamless for the school, I think the better, and then sort of
Matt Varley:
remain. Open as well, that if there's custom implementations
Matt Varley:
that need to be done, that it can still be actioned. So as
Matt Varley:
long as it integrates and it works and it saves minutes
Matt Varley:
seconds in the event of an emergency, it's absolutely
Matt Varley:
critical.
Marshall Singer:
Yeah, and actually building on what you
Marshall Singer:
said, Matt, that made me kind of think of so when we first
Marshall Singer:
founded roof note, we were in the middle of the EE seven
Marshall Singer:
revolution, as I'll call it, you know, Blackbaud and Baldwin
Marshall Singer:
Hill, they were pushing people, rightfully so, to the new online
Marshall Singer:
SAS and Veracross was just about to come around the corner. And I
Marshall Singer:
think exactly what you were talking about of those days
Marshall Singer:
ending. I think you could see it back then, because you can look
Marshall Singer:
at the legacy folks that really existed before then, not, I
Marshall Singer:
won't name names, but, you know, and then you can look at the
Marshall Singer:
after days, right? And how much market share Blackburn and
Marshall Singer:
Veracross have taken in the past 10 years because of that open
Marshall Singer:
API layer that it allows schools to flexibly access their own
Marshall Singer:
data, as opposed to, you know, some of the legacy folks, which
Marshall Singer:
will then charge per integration. You can't do your
Marshall Singer:
own, you know, integrations on your end, you have to go to
Marshall Singer:
their corporate where then you're waiting on their
Marshall Singer:
engineers, which is Matt, I love the way you said that they're
Marshall Singer:
essentially holding their own data and their functionality
Marshall Singer:
hostage. So I completely agree that we're moving towards a
Marshall Singer:
world where you're looking for a kind of a hub and spoke where
Marshall Singer:
every point of that is going to integrate, and it needs to be
Marshall Singer:
able to flexibly integrate with the next series of hubs and
Marshall Singer:
spokes. So, yeah, absolutely.
Bill Stites:
What do you guys need from the vendors that
Bill Stites:
you're working with? And what's asked of you to make that as
Bill Stites:
easy as possible? I mean, if we were to get up and advocate and
Bill Stites:
say, you know, listen, this is a huge issue, and because we often
Bill Stites:
sit at the crossroads of the SIS vendor and vendors like
Bill Stites:
yourself, what can we do to help? What do you need? What are
Bill Stites:
the things that we should be focused on most?
Matt Varley:
For us, it's the most access to every bit of data
Matt Varley:
that's possible. Is the ask, right? There's still some slits
Matt Varley:
of information that either aren't accessible via an API.
Matt Varley:
And I think as we move more and more to introducing AI
Matt Varley:
functionality within our platform. The ways of accessing
Matt Varley:
data is super important as well, so moving from that API only
Matt Varley:
into more of an MCP layer is super important so we can
Matt Varley:
leverage in application access to that data. So let's say
Matt Varley:
you're running an emergency drill within aura, and there's
Matt Varley:
information that sits within the SIS that could be relevant in
Matt Varley:
the event of that emergency drill that say we don't have in
Matt Varley:
aura, the ability to be able to query in MCP with the CIS and
Matt Varley:
bring that back into the interface would be really
Matt Varley:
critical. I think that layer of intelligence and ease of
Matt Varley:
querying via MCP without having to write that specific route to
Matt Varley:
an API is super critical, and I think just the use cases that
Matt Varley:
could come from having access to that is immense. The ease of
Matt Varley:
writing to MCPS now be able to bring back really useful
Matt Varley:
information is just so much easier than the traditional way
Matt Varley:
with APIs. So Bill to sort of answer your question more
Matt Varley:
succinctly, it's getting access to that data through various
Matt Varley:
different means, rather than more APIs,
Peter Frank:
I'm
Bill Stites:
going to ask you to define it for the audience,
Bill Stites:
because I don't want to make it seem like I don't know what I'm
Bill Stites:
talking about. What is an MCP,
Hiram Cuevas:
because it sounds like it interfaces with AI in
Hiram Cuevas:
the way that you're discussing
Peter Frank:
it?
Matt Varley:
Yeah. So MCP model, context protocol, it was a
Matt Varley:
protocol. I'm pretty sure the anthropic guys actually came up
Matt Varley:
with the protocol, and it's a way of trying to standardize the
Matt Varley:
ability to access data from another system that is more AI
Matt Varley:
native. So typically, if you're sitting on top of data, as we
Matt Varley:
all are, you create an MCP server, and that kind of
Matt Varley:
protocol which governs what access and what data can be
Matt Varley:
exposed through that data store out to an external party. And
Matt Varley:
then, as people come and query that MCP server, they can throw
Matt Varley:
a natural language type query at that MCP server, rather than
Matt Varley:
having to write to a specific get this specific API, send
Matt Varley:
these parameters, I'm going to pull that information back and
Matt Varley:
then do something with it. It can be get me all the medical
Matt Varley:
records for this student, because I need to display it in
Matt Varley:
this interface. And it can be that kind of natural language,
Matt Varley:
to a point where then a combination of the MCP protocol
Matt Varley:
coupled with AI sitting behind the scenes can go and get that
Matt Varley:
relevant information. So the main use cases right now is
Matt Varley:
being more flexible in terms of the data that you can call.
Matt Varley:
Ultimately, it's still the same thing. You're asking for data.
Matt Varley:
It's going and doing something, bringing the data back, and then
Matt Varley:
displaying it wherever you need. But it's a more flexible natural
Matt Varley:
language powered by a AI kind of way, rather than an API being
Matt Varley:
quite structured.
Marshall Singer:
I heard someone describe an MCP once like a USB
Marshall Singer:
port, and I found that to be just a fascinatingly
Marshall Singer:
straightforward way of explaining it that think of a
Marshall Singer:
USB. Like the era before USB, that every different keyboard
Marshall Singer:
needed a different cable, and the computer needed to
Marshall Singer:
understand how that specific keyboard worked, or anything
Marshall Singer:
like that. And then after USB, it doesn't need to know
Marshall Singer:
specifically how that mouse or keyboard works. It's just that
Marshall Singer:
it connects through USB. So think of it like a Universal
Marshall Singer:
Plug standard that lets any AI model connect to any other
Marshall Singer:
external system, and just without having to wire them up
Marshall Singer:
together individually each time it's super duper powerful. And
Marshall Singer:
Matt, I love that you said that, because that was certainly where
Marshall Singer:
I was going to go a little bit as well, both in terms of, I
Marshall Singer:
think, better embrace of the powers that the layer of AI can
Marshall Singer:
build, not like building it directly in at every part,
Marshall Singer:
because I think sometimes that's a trap, but I think the
Marshall Singer:
analytical abilities and additional context that using AI
Marshall Singer:
can provide schools. I love your in emergency example. I think
Marshall Singer:
that's such a good one. Of providing additional data access
Marshall Singer:
through natural language processing and natural language
Marshall Singer:
queries is super powerful. That's a higher I'm going to go
Marshall Singer:
to a lower level one, which is my forever one, which is just
Marshall Singer:
better documentation, please. I think that the SIS vendors are
Marshall Singer:
amazing, and I think sometimes they don't know all of the
Marshall Singer:
capacities of their own product sometimes. And I think
Marshall Singer:
additional documentation for what's possible would be
Marshall Singer:
wonderful, because at the end of the day, a, it's your data and
Marshall Singer:
B, we want to help you leverage it to do cool things. So when
Marshall Singer:
there are updates made. You know, both Veracross and
Marshall Singer:
Blackburn are larger organizations, and so I think
Marshall Singer:
just continuing to focus on how they can ensure their vendor
Marshall Singer:
partners, you know, like aura and ruvna always have access to
Marshall Singer:
the most up to date information on capacities and how to unlock
Marshall Singer:
those for our mutual clients. And I understand when we're
Marshall Singer:
moving fast and trying to do a lot, that's tough, but I think
Marshall Singer:
that, for me, always rings true of, you know, making it so we
Marshall Singer:
don't have to then get on exactly as you said, Bill, get
Marshall Singer:
on a, you know, you serving as the middle person between us and
Marshall Singer:
an S is, if you and I can sit down and figure it out, that's a
Marshall Singer:
much better outcome for everybody involved. Chief of all
Marshall Singer:
the SIS. So I think that would be my simple what I would say is
Marshall Singer:
the number one ask, as I always
Peter Frank:
have, I'm curious. So we've quickly reach the AI
Peter Frank:
point of the conversation, as we knew we would, as these systems
Peter Frank:
get built, and you're talking about bringing more in that
Peter Frank:
either the software is just doing it for you, or you're just
Peter Frank:
doing it for you. I'm curious, culturally with the technology
Peter Frank:
directors and then all the people that the technology
Peter Frank:
directors serve, what are you finding are the biggest
Peter Frank:
pushbacks, or where is the most resistance? Because when you
Peter Frank:
were talking about AI, and you're talking about safety, one
Peter Frank:
of the greatest concerns with AI is, like, we're giving all our
Peter Frank:
data away.
Marshall Singer:
It's all going on to servers. What's anyone
Marshall Singer:
really doing with it? Is it protected? Is it safe? Just when
Marshall Singer:
we're using AI to figure out, like I just saw, can you upload
Marshall Singer:
my kid's basketball schedule into my calendar, like things
Marshall Singer:
like that, like the privacy factor for ourselves as
Marshall Singer:
consumers with AI in schools, it seems like it's so much more
Marshall Singer:
significant as we're talking about the safety of miners and
Marshall Singer:
the privacy of miners. So are there pushbacks already as you
Marshall Singer:
start talking about AI and how AI is working within your own
Marshall Singer:
systems, and what are your answers? Yeah, so we have been
Marshall Singer:
very careful whenever we look forward to how we would
Marshall Singer:
implement solutions like that and tools like that. We're
Marshall Singer:
really excited about its possibilities, but as of today,
Marshall Singer:
we haven't implemented any of that into our live product for a
Marshall Singer:
lot of the reasons you've just said, I think we're still in a
Marshall Singer:
little bit of the wild wild west of AI in ed tech. And for us,
Marshall Singer:
being a mission critical product of when you use roof net, it
Marshall Singer:
just needs to work, no ifs ands or buts, full stop. And so I
Marshall Singer:
think for us, that means we have to be very careful when
Marshall Singer:
embracing new technologies and how we can use it, but
Marshall Singer:
internally as a tool as a we like to call it a force
Marshall Singer:
multiplier. Roof now has been all in it allows us as
Marshall Singer:
employees, as team members, to get so much more out of our
Marshall Singer:
individual skills and knowledge, to provide a lot more value and
Marshall Singer:
benefit to our schools. Looking forward to how I think education
Marshall Singer:
in particular will be embracing it. It's to allow better use of
Marshall Singer:
people's functions. I don't think we want personally AI
Marshall Singer:
making decisions. We want AI providing us with additional
Marshall Singer:
context, additional information and additional views of a scope
Marshall Singer:
to help us make the right decision. So at its best, it
Marshall Singer:
should be enabling human ingenuity, not replacing it. And
Marshall Singer:
I think in a rush, some folks have just thrown it in
Marshall Singer:
everywhere, willy nilly, and I've typically found the best
Marshall Singer:
technology leaders and the best schools are the ones that don't
Marshall Singer:
get caught up in a rush to say a buzz word or come out swinging
Marshall Singer:
against or for something. It's taking
Peter Frank:
a moment to realize, how can I best leverage
Peter Frank:
this to benefit my community? Great, Matt, how about you
Peter Frank:
balancing? We want to take full advantage of AI and all that
Peter Frank:
offers, and we're dealing with all of this sensitive data and
Peter Frank:
privacy,
Matt Varley:
similar to Marshall, where we're all in
Matt Varley:
internally. I think you know, in terms of what it can do for how
Matt Varley:
we operate internally, to deliver more value to schools,
Matt Varley:
it's amazing, but it's not quite ready yet. It still
Matt Varley:
hallucinates. It still gets things wrong, and AI in school
Matt Varley:
safety is only as. Good as the data that sits underneath it, a
Matt Varley:
lot of schools are still struggling with fundamental type
Matt Varley:
issues. Of this student is on a pass. They've gone to the
Matt Varley:
bathroom, or there's still an email sitting in an inbox that
Matt Varley:
the student is going to be absent, and that hasn't made its
Matt Varley:
way through to either the SAS or the aura platform and running
Matt Varley:
fancy AI workflows off the back of data that still isn't right
Matt Varley:
is fraught with danger, because it'll then sort of send it down
Matt Varley:
a path similar to Marshall. We haven't publicly launched
Matt Varley:
anything in the AI space, but obviously play around with it
Matt Varley:
internally with what we're doing. And one of the
Matt Varley:
interesting things that we did the other day was de identify
Matt Varley:
all of the PII data before we push it off into the model. So
Matt Varley:
we're looking at attendance patterns the other day, and
Matt Varley:
instead of sending student name or even the student ID with some
Matt Varley:
of the attendance data into the model, which was hosted in AWS
Matt Varley:
bedrock, so it's not going off outside of our cloud
Matt Varley:
infrastructure, we created a dummy ID which then mapped back
Matt Varley:
internally to the student ID and pushed that dummy ID off with
Matt Varley:
the attendance data. So there was no student name, no PII.
Matt Varley:
Wasn't even the student ID. So I think this de identification of
Matt Varley:
information before it's pushed off into the model is super
Matt Varley:
critical, as one layer doesn't protect everything, but thinking
Matt Varley:
about how we've got that gate before data gets pushed off into
Matt Varley:
these AI models, keeping that ring fenced is super important,
Matt Varley:
playing within the playground right now, keeping everything
Matt Varley:
internal. But I think to Marshall's point, the use cases
Matt Varley:
are not replacing jobs. It's how do you get AI and agents to do
Matt Varley:
things like follow up, which are routine behavior? You know, some
Matt Varley:
of the AI voice technology is getting fantastic right now,
Matt Varley:
where students missing hasn't turned up to class, and an
Matt Varley:
attendance administrator will then call through to the room,
Matt Varley:
or they'll call a parent in the future, all that stuff surely
Matt Varley:
can be automated so that attendance officer or the
Matt Varley:
teacher can get back to actually doing what their core job is.
Matt Varley:
Yeah, that's something that's not necessarily pushing
Matt Varley:
sensitive data off into the model. It's just automating
Matt Varley:
workflows in the same way that software has done in the last 20
Matt Varley:
to 30 years. It's just taking that next level, and I think AI
Matt Varley:
has just got that little bit more context where, again, like
Matt Varley:
the MCP conversation, not having to articulate every specific
Matt Varley:
step, you're just sending it off in a natural language way. And
Matt Varley:
it's learning over time and getting better again, all with
Matt Varley:
the intent of, how do we get these people back, actually
Matt Varley:
doing what they intended to do when they started their jobs and
Matt Varley:
not buried in spreadsheets and paper and having to make 20
Matt Varley:
calls of a morning.
Hiram Cuevas:
I'd like to just express my gratitude to hear
Hiram Cuevas:
that you all are very cautious in how you're handling the
Hiram Cuevas:
information that schools are providing your respective
Hiram Cuevas:
companies, because both of you are spot on. You still need that
Hiram Cuevas:
human in the middle component that is absolutely necessary. I
Hiram Cuevas:
just happened to hear an article today on the radio and NPR about
Hiram Cuevas:
judges calling out attorneys who are providing briefs where
Hiram Cuevas:
they're citing information that's completely incorrect or
Hiram Cuevas:
cases that haven't even happened. So I can't imagine
Hiram Cuevas:
having to face up with a judge and say, you know, sorry, I used
Hiram Cuevas:
AI and it just made this up, and I didn't really proof read it or
Hiram Cuevas:
examine it. When you start talking about people's children,
Hiram Cuevas:
the landscape changes immensely. And I think what companies
Hiram Cuevas:
today, and I'm talking about more of some of the older
Hiram Cuevas:
companies as well, is that trust needs to be maintained and it
Hiram Cuevas:
needs to be reviewed and steps need to be taken to ensure that
Hiram Cuevas:
from our seats, we're constantly having to review and vet
Hiram Cuevas:
applications. That's one of the challenging aspects of our jobs,
Hiram Cuevas:
and knowing that you all are very cognizant of that is
Hiram Cuevas:
soothing to my ears.
Marshall Singer:
Yeah, and I think that comes from a respect
Marshall Singer:
for our communities and a trust built over time of understanding
Marshall Singer:
what folks I think need, and understanding the gravity and
Marshall Singer:
the importance of what we do. The other thing I think is
Marshall Singer:
really important that I think sometimes gets lost in a
Marshall Singer:
Zeitgeist for a new technology, not that it was real, but the
Marshall Singer:
metaverse, you know, that was never going anywhere. But, you
Marshall Singer:
know, people were like, Oh, it'll all be there. But look
Marshall Singer:
where we are now. Is that? What's the point? What are we
Marshall Singer:
trying to achieve here? What is the actual end goal we're trying
Marshall Singer:
to have? What's the outcome? And AI, is one tool in our belt, but
Marshall Singer:
it's not the only one, and it's one that has been added to our
Marshall Singer:
roster of ways. When we understand our clients, our
Marshall Singer:
schools are going, Hey, we're really struggling with x, we're
Marshall Singer:
really struggling with y. When we look at it from a holistic
Marshall Singer:
level, it's just another avenue, another step along the journey
Marshall Singer:
of solving a problem for them, it's never it shouldn't be a
Marshall Singer:
zero sum, and at the end of the day, it's just a way we can help
Marshall Singer:
schools get back to just teaching. Working and helping
Marshall Singer:
them spend as little time as possible on things that just
Marshall Singer:
need to be done that aren't that human. Element of educating the
Bill Stites:
child. In our run a show, we were talking about, one
Bill Stites:
of the things we had listed is like the real time student
Bill Stites:
accountability, knowing where people are, Matt, when you were
Bill Stites:
talking about aura, and the fact that, you know, starting in
Bill Stites:
boarding schools. And I've never worked at a boarding school.
Bill Stites:
I've worked with boarding schools on a number of different
Bill Stites:
things, and I think about how they need to know where students
Bill Stites:
are and how difficult of a process that actually is. And
Bill Stites:
you may have a few day students, but you've got attendance. Who's
Bill Stites:
here? Who should I expect in my class? But on all of that free
Bill Stites:
time. How are they accounted for when there is no structure
Bill Stites:
around where they have to be, but we need to know where they
Bill Stites:
actually are. And I think about a use case that I was actually,
Bill Stites:
literally on the phone yesterday with Rachel at ruvda, talking
Bill Stites:
about, you know, an issue that we have with students who when
Bill Stites:
they come in in the morning, we have the attendance, but then if
Bill Stites:
they have, like senior privileges, they then check out
Bill Stites:
and then go out of the building. So they're present with us in
Bill Stites:
terms of, we know where they are, but their actual location
Bill Stites:
is something that's a little bit different, because they're in
Bill Stites:
different spots, and yesterday, for me, exemplified a great
Bill Stites:
opportunity to have a meaningful conversation with a vendor about
Bill Stites:
a particular problem that we're trying to solve. But I want to
Bill Stites:
turn this slightly to both of you and say you're trying to
Bill Stites:
solve this problem for schools, what does it mean to know where
Bill Stites:
somebody is in a given moment, and whether that's integrating
Bill Stites:
or having your own attendance systems, having your own check
Bill Stites:
in, having kiosks that you can go in and out of. Part of it
Bill Stites:
comes down to where are the gaps, and where can you tighten
Bill Stites:
up those gaps? And if that requires the students to be part
Bill Stites:
of that process. What does that mean? If that requires the
Bill Stites:
teachers to be more involved, what does that mean? So if
Bill Stites:
you're looking at those gaps, where do you see those gaps
Bill Stites:
existing right now so that we can actually fully deliver on
Bill Stites:
what we mean when we say real time student accountability?
Matt Varley:
Yeah, there's a lot on that. Being in boarding
Matt Varley:
schools, the orientation of Aura has been built. From that
Matt Varley:
complex perspective in boarding schools is very much leave or
Matt Varley:
passes of border is going away for the weekend. They're going
Matt Varley:
to their friend's house, or they're going home, or they're
Matt Varley:
on a bus to a movie, cinema excursion, whatever it may be,
Matt Varley:
an unstructured schedule of having a pass to fill in where
Matt Varley:
they are at that present moment. And you know, at the boarding
Matt Varley:
house, it was signing in with the student on an NFC tile and
Matt Varley:
then signing out. The extension into day schools has got its own
Matt Varley:
series of complexities, and I think there's lots of gaps, to
Matt Varley:
be brutally honest. And we got into the mode, and we've
Matt Varley:
actually built an attendance solution separate to the SIS,
Matt Varley:
that's bi directional and allows the teachers to take attendance
Matt Varley:
in aura, and then that pushes back for academic records into
Matt Varley:
the CIS and other processes that need to run off attendance. But
Matt Varley:
one of the key learnings in the last six to 12 months has been
Matt Varley:
attendance and location, whilst interrelated, are two very
Matt Varley:
different things, and we see attendance as almost like a
Matt Varley:
financial ledger. Where it's taken it's set in stone. It
Matt Varley:
doesn't need to change. The student is either present or
Matt Varley:
not. There's context about their location that's important when
Matt Varley:
taking attendance, the other students on a pass, they're
Matt Varley:
currently in the health center, or they're down at a music
Matt Varley:
lesson or sports class at this present point, that provides
Matt Varley:
that context to the teacher when taking attendance. But
Matt Varley:
ultimately, it's a binary, they're here or they're not, and
Matt Varley:
that's locked away and it's filed away. So that nuance
Matt Varley:
between location and attendance has been a key learning when it
Matt Varley:
comes to location, some of these school campuses are massive, and
Matt Varley:
depending on the philosophy of the school, they're allowed off
Matt Varley:
campus for lunch, or they're not, or there's after school
Matt Varley:
activities, there's dismissals, predominantly usually in the
Matt Varley:
Lower School of student Arriving, student leaving, and
Matt Varley:
that could be parent pickup. It could be them walking home. So I
Matt Varley:
think the gaps are beyond class attendance, and it's like what's
Matt Varley:
happening in all of those we found 84 scenarios when we dug
Matt Varley:
deep into this nurse's office after school events, dismissals.
Matt Varley:
So we're just scratching the surface here, but I think
Matt Varley:
thinking through the lens of attendance and location and
Matt Varley:
location becomes really important in the event of
Matt Varley:
emergency, because even though they marked present in class 30
Matt Varley:
minutes ago, if their location is now the nurse's office,
Matt Varley:
that's super important in the event of emergency, because. If
Matt Varley:
they're not physically in that class location, they're at the
Matt Varley:
nurse's office. One's real time, another one's kind of more
Matt Varley:
ledger point in time, record keeping
Marshall Singer:
very well, said Matt and we came to a very
Marshall Singer:
similar conclusion. After the pandemic, when a lot of our
Marshall Singer:
schools started using the QR codes we had issued people to
Marshall Singer:
say, hey, they successfully filed a health questionnaire
Marshall Singer:
they can arrive. Here's how they tell you they arrive. And we
Marshall Singer:
summed it up as the SIS is really good at answering the
Marshall Singer:
question of, did they learn it's not built to answer the question
Marshall Singer:
of, where the heck are they and what does that mean,
Marshall Singer:
functionally throughout the day, right? They're just very
Marshall Singer:
different things. And moreover than that, a lot of schools take
Marshall Singer:
class attendance because they have to, not because it's
Marshall Singer:
fundamentally useful for a lot of their community. So there's
Marshall Singer:
just a lot of gaps, as you said, that exist both because of
Marshall Singer:
deficiencies in technology, but also because, I think schools
Marshall Singer:
are starting to rethink whether they do things because they
Marshall Singer:
should or because they have to. And I think looking through that
Marshall Singer:
lens is pushed a lot of folks to change. And to your point
Marshall Singer:
exactly, Bill, I think that's for us why we've been really
Marshall Singer:
working to help understand more holistically with things like
Marshall Singer:
roof and attendance and shameless shout out, we just
Marshall Singer:
released dismissal literally today. So that's exciting for
Marshall Singer:
me, through understanding where that location is throughout the
Marshall Singer:
day, and not just physically where they are, but critically,
Marshall Singer:
what does that mean? What does that mean for their attendance
Marshall Singer:
the rest of the day? What does that mean in terms of the
Marshall Singer:
communications that have to go with parents? What does that
Marshall Singer:
mean in the case of an emergency? So better
Marshall Singer:
understanding all of that, I think, is going to be critical,
Marshall Singer:
because, Matt, I couldn't agree with you more, there are a ton
Marshall Singer:
of gaps throughout the day, but I think most importantly for us,
Marshall Singer:
I think specifically to each school, they're going to look
Marshall Singer:
really different. And the correct solution for those gaps
Marshall Singer:
are going to look really different, because one school
Marshall Singer:
might really be interested in having, let's say, an external
Marshall Singer:
system taking attendance in the class. Another one might say,
Marshall Singer:
look, we've already got that all in Blackbaud. We don't want
Marshall Singer:
folks opening up a separate system or things for the nurse
Marshall Singer:
and things in that capacity for after school. So I think more
Marshall Singer:
holistically, being flexible to understand what is the school
Marshall Singer:
trying to achieve. You know, they want to know whether
Marshall Singer:
they're in the nurses office, what time they went there, and
Marshall Singer:
the specifics of capturing that and getting that could look
Marshall Singer:
different for schools. Might be NFC, might be RFID, might be
Marshall Singer:
GPS, might be something we haven't even thought of. But I
Marshall Singer:
think providing the flexibility to solve for that within the
Marshall Singer:
confines of what they have and what they might want to be
Marshall Singer:
doing, both like technologically and operationally, is how we
Marshall Singer:
come to some really exciting outcomes and how you come up
Marshall Singer:
with solutions. Henry Ford, there's a quote attributed to
Marshall Singer:
him, which is, like, you know, if I gave people what they
Marshall Singer:
wanted, we would have a faster horse. So I think that's how you
Marshall Singer:
kind of end up with those types of interesting and novel
Marshall Singer:
solutions. Is when we think about what we're trying to
Marshall Singer:
achieve, not just how we can solve it, how we might think it
Marshall Singer:
should be solved. At the end of the day, flexibility and working
Marshall Singer:
with schools to solve a problem within their community the way
Marshall Singer:
it needs to be solved, not just the way we immediately think is
Marshall Singer:
how we're going to come to
Peter Frank:
the correct
Bill Stites:
answer. It's interesting that you both
Bill Stites:
settled on like that location piece and that being like the
Bill Stites:
crux of that issue. Because the reason this came up in the
Bill Stites:
conversations that I had was because we were dealing it with
Bill Stites:
fire drills, and we were trying to see if we've got everyone
Bill Stites:
accounted for. You know, I have instructions on here's what you
Bill Stites:
do when you log in to check for the accountability piece on your
Bill Stites:
phones to make sure you've got everyone but then right next to
Bill Stites:
it, I've got a published query out of Veracross that's got the
Bill Stites:
check in, check out log. So if you don't see the person, you've
Bill Stites:
got a cross reference to that check in, check out log. So
Bill Stites:
having that conversation with our grade level deans, which is
Bill Stites:
what I was just in at our high school, was an idea of trying to
Bill Stites:
explain the difference between what you're looking at in one
Bill Stites:
place is attendance, which is one thing, what we're looking at
Bill Stites:
in another is the idea of is a location mechanism, a protocol
Bill Stites:
for gathering, whether somebody is on or off campus, from that
Bill Stites:
location. And they're two separate things, and that mental
Bill Stites:
hurdle to get over that was something that was really hard
Bill Stites:
to explain, but they're checking it like, why isn't that showing
Bill Stites:
it's because they're not absent, like we would have to understand
Bill Stites:
and how we are impacting the way, and we're looking at that
Bill Stites:
data, and depending on you mentioned teachers taking
Bill Stites:
attendance, and not really necessarily, For what reason are
Bill Stites:
they doing it in individual classes? Well, we don't know
Bill Stites:
where that reporting needs to go, you know. We can't have
Bill Stites:
statuses flipping back and forth, you know. So there's
Bill Stites:
interesting problems to solve there. And it got to the point
Bill Stites:
in the conversation I was having, is there anything we
Bill Stites:
need to ask of students to do, and to that level, from like, a
Bill Stites:
privacy standpoint, Marshall, you mentioned GPS or, like,
Bill Stites:
tracking them, like whatever it may be. And then I think about
Bill Stites:
that privacy piece of it, and what do we need to ask of
Bill Stites:
students? Do we need to allow them to check themselves in, or
Bill Stites:
do whatever they need to do in those events? It's. What more
Bill Stites:
can we ask, and what should we ask? And what really can we ask
Bill Stites:
in order to overcome some of those gaps when we need more
Bill Stites:
inputs from other people, particularly the students,
Hiram Cuevas:
Bill, what's fascinating about your
Hiram Cuevas:
statements is that if we listen to what Matt said earlier, he
Hiram Cuevas:
talked about attendance being transactional, it's very much a
Hiram Cuevas:
singleton event for a teacher or even for the administrative
Hiram Cuevas:
team. Were they here? Were they not here? And then that location
Hiram Cuevas:
piece, and we've been having these conversations as well. And
Hiram Cuevas:
I think what's been really helpful is both sis providers
Hiram Cuevas:
are looking at a 360 view of students, where attendance is a
Hiram Cuevas:
piece of it. It's a data point that is really, really important
Hiram Cuevas:
about the well being of your student community, along with
Hiram Cuevas:
conduct. And How is that connected to attendance, and how
Hiram Cuevas:
is that then connected to academic performance, and how is
Hiram Cuevas:
that connected to how they're doing in practice, for whether
Hiram Cuevas:
it's the arts or in athletics, so we're really starting to pull
Hiram Cuevas:
the veneer off of that single transaction that Matt mentioned
Hiram Cuevas:
earlier, and really diving deep into what it's like to be a
Hiram Cuevas:
student within one of our schools.
Bill Stites:
And I think if you think about that AI piece that
Bill Stites:
you were talking about and being able to ask a question in a
Bill Stites:
natural language, like, where is Sean Stites? If we were to ask
Bill Stites:
that question, it would be able to look at the attendance log.
Bill Stites:
It would be able to look in the check in, check out log, and it
Bill Stites:
would be able to look at those multitude of things, or be able
Bill Stites:
to look at the sporting events and understand all of those
Bill Stites:
things. I think that if we go back to the AI piece, if we
Bill Stites:
think about where that can really help the work that we're
Bill Stites:
asking all of you to help solve for us as schools, that's a
Bill Stites:
layer right there that I would be like, Okay, let's go in on
Bill Stites:
that. Because to me, that's just the thing that we don't have to
Bill Stites:
worry about, is this endpoint available on the API? How does
Bill Stites:
it impact this? How does it do this? It's that natural language
Bill Stites:
question that can look at multiple sources and give us
Bill Stites:
what we need in those actual moments that if we can build
Bill Stites:
towards, we're going to have a much better chance of actually
Bill Stites:
knowing where people are in the moment that we ask that
Bill Stites:
question.
Matt Varley:
I think Bill just to cover that point, one thing
Matt Varley:
that we haven't spoken about in understanding the location of
Matt Varley:
the student is, where are they expected to be the schedule, and
Matt Varley:
the schedule is sitting across multiple different systems, if
Matt Varley:
you think about not only class attendance, but also then
Matt Varley:
extracurricular after school activities, excursions, and then
Matt Varley:
knowing, then the location of the student and it not being
Matt Varley:
where they're expected to be creates a discrepancy, which
Matt Varley:
then needs some form of interrogation, depending on how
Matt Varley:
severe it is. I think, to your point about AI in the future, if
Matt Varley:
it could do some of the groundwork and be integrating
Matt Varley:
with some of these other systems and saying, Well, there's a past
Matt Varley:
there, and they're not expected to be there because Mum or Dad
Matt Varley:
called in earlier today and said that they're going to be off for
Matt Varley:
the afternoon. It's that level of nuance that takes a lot of
Matt Varley:
time. So it's, where are they expected to be? Where are they
Matt Varley:
now, real time, location. And then there's the attendance,
Matt Varley:
file away, lock away, academic transcripts, funding, depending
Matt Varley:
on the school. So I just wanted to quickly talk about the
Matt Varley:
student agency of check in. I mean, the technology is there,
Matt Varley:
right? Facial recognition, biometric types of ways of
Matt Varley:
scanning faces, you know, fingerprints as they walk into a
Matt Varley:
classroom. The technology has been there for years, but it's
Matt Varley:
more of that privacy. You know, in some states it's just
Matt Varley:
completely outright banned, not allowed in minors. But there's a
Matt Varley:
spectrum of teacher taking all the agency, marking the role,
Matt Varley:
marking location, borders, inherently, have always had a
Matt Varley:
lot more agency because they're away from home and they're
Matt Varley:
checking themselves in and accountable for themselves. I
Matt Varley:
think if we could bring it more into the day school where it's
Matt Varley:
more student led attendance in a way that still respects privacy,
Matt Varley:
would be a great outcome for schools, because not only does
Matt Varley:
it make the real time location record more accurate, it's also
Matt Varley:
putting the agency ownership back on the student and taking
Matt Varley:
less time from the teacher in order to update it, because I
Matt Varley:
think that's what we see, is this doesn't need to be more
Matt Varley:
work on a teacher's plate. I think there was a discussion
Matt Varley:
about change management. If updating location and updating
Matt Varley:
tenants takes more time for a teacher, then naturally, there's
Matt Varley:
not going to be as much adoption within a school of doing this.
Matt Varley:
If the real time location is not up to date, then the emergency
Matt Varley:
functionality is not as rich. So how do we come back to that core
Matt Varley:
of making it simple to capture this location data without
Matt Varley:
impeding on a student's privacy so that the end goal of keeping
Matt Varley:
students safe is achieved? So yeah, just my kind of thoughts
Matt Varley:
on the complexity.
Marshall Singer:
Piece of this, but it's an exciting area to
Marshall Singer:
solve. I really like the way you said that, Matt, because I think
Marshall Singer:
it's almost looking for that really nice middle ground
Marshall Singer:
between, how do we empower students, but not entirely rely
Marshall Singer:
on them, while also removing as much as we can from teachers
Marshall Singer:
plate without fully removing because I think you will need
Marshall Singer:
both parties in this process, no matter what the question is, how
Marshall Singer:
can we leverage both of what their capacities and
Marshall Singer:
responsibilities are to get the best outcome? And I think that's
Marshall Singer:
really to your point. What I'm super excited to think about,
Marshall Singer:
because one of the things for rubna We've been building
Marshall Singer:
towards for years is that understanding of throughout the
Marshall Singer:
day, from before the first bell to after the last class ends,
Marshall Singer:
where are you and what does that mean? And I think now, as we
Marshall Singer:
look intra day, whether that's going on a pass, whether that's
Marshall Singer:
going to a field trip, whether that's during an emergency, how
Marshall Singer:
we can leverage capacities to make this process a lot easier,
Marshall Singer:
and also, just to kind of come back to my shtick of like
Marshall Singer:
relative to what schools are open to doing, because I think
Marshall Singer:
you could sit down with two schools and both of them could
Marshall Singer:
give you incredibly passionate and incredibly correct answers.
Marshall Singer:
One on the side of my students are not going to be taking their
Marshall Singer:
own attendance, and the other, on the side of I'm totally okay
Marshall Singer:
with students taking their own attendance. And I think both of
Marshall Singer:
those folks are completely correct, given the gamut of
Marshall Singer:
independent school culture and beliefs and the ways in which
Marshall Singer:
they function. And so the question is not just, how do we
Marshall Singer:
collect that information, it's, how do we provide ways that work
Marshall Singer:
within both contexts, and then on top of that, have the context
Marshall Singer:
from something like AI, from analytics and things like that
Marshall Singer:
on top to provide additional value. So I think it's a really
Marshall Singer:
fascinatingly amazing time to be an ed tech entrepreneur, because
Marshall Singer:
of just the capacity increases and the conversations that are
Marshall Singer:
happening within schools and within the community of ATLIS
Marshall Singer:
and all these other wonderful associations,
Peter Frank:
nice. Yeah, we appreciate all that enthusiasm.
Peter Frank:
It is an exciting time, for sure. And as usual, on this
Peter Frank:
podcast, we run out of time, like we get going with these
Peter Frank:
conversations, and we wish we had more time. And that's
Peter Frank:
totally normal here. Before we let you guys go, though, I
Peter Frank:
wanted to give a chance to anyone who's listening right
Peter Frank:
now, or maybe they've been thinking, Yeah, we do a good job
Peter Frank:
with safety. Perhaps we could be doing more, or maybe we know we
Peter Frank:
want to be doing more. And maybe they're considering their tech
Peter Frank:
stack, and they're looking at different platforms, etc. I know
Peter Frank:
sometimes they're like hidden taxes in systems, sometimes
Peter Frank:
they're things that they're not pitfalls, but it's just
Peter Frank:
questions that weren't asked when they were considering
Peter Frank:
platforms. What's the one thing that you know from all of your
Peter Frank:
experiences, people need to ask this question more as they're
Peter Frank:
considering platforms like these, because it's very
Peter Frank:
enlightening. The way the vendors get to answer this
Peter Frank:
question, it's enlightening. You can learn a lot. What's
Peter Frank:
something that like people often don't ask that you feel like,
Peter Frank:
yeah, people should
Marshall Singer:
ask this more. Am I allowed to give three?
Marshall Singer:
Because I have the same three I get every time I'm asked this
Marshall Singer:
question, go for it. Number one, can I talk to an engineer? I
Marshall Singer:
always tell folks, get someone technical from your vendors
Marshall Singer:
before you put your name on a contract, because if they are
Marshall Singer:
not willing to provide you someone that is involved with
Marshall Singer:
the process of creating that product, I would be wary,
Marshall Singer:
because it means they might be outsourcing it, or it means they
Marshall Singer:
don't really want to go that deep with you, but as a director
Marshall Singer:
of technology, you're forming a partnership, and they should be
Marshall Singer:
willing and excited to engage with you. I love having those
Marshall Singer:
conversations. Two it's ask your own network about who's using
Marshall Singer:
what product. When I say like, if you ask a vendor for a
Marshall Singer:
reference, they're going to give you the person that's had the S
Marshall Singer:
Plus amazing experience with them. Ask around, talk to the
Marshall Singer:
people you know, talking with them. Of course, the reference
Marshall Singer:
is amazing, because I'm sure they're using the product a lot,
Marshall Singer:
but the people you know are really important as well. And
Marshall Singer:
number three, and very specifically, ask, what does the
Marshall Singer:
process look like between going from
Matt Varley:
where I am today to successfully using your product,
Matt Varley:
and what does it look like specifically, and what do I need
Matt Varley:
to know ahead of time on where I should be focusing on making
Matt Varley:
sure there are no pitfalls. You know, give me a real firm walk
Matt Varley:
through on understanding how people see success for your
Matt Varley:
solution. The one that I'd add there is, it's the conversation
Matt Varley:
that we had around attendance, location and schedule, in terms
Matt Varley:
of bringing in not just a narrow set of stakeholders, but
Matt Varley:
everyone, ultimately, is responsible for student safety.
Matt Varley:
The point is about broading out the stakeholders, because in a
Matt Varley:
location tracking platform, it's not just about having the IT
Matt Varley:
director and the attendance manager on the call. It's about
Matt Varley:
that head of safety. It's about the deans of students that are
Matt Varley:
responsible for the location of those students to ensure that
Matt Varley:
all of their pain points are captured when a process looks
Matt Varley:
quite narrowly at attendance, I think it misses a lot of those
Matt Varley:
gaps that we spoke about before, and understanding how those gaps
Matt Varley:
are being addressed. Right? Now and ensuring that the system can
Matt Varley:
address all those different scenarios is super important.
Matt Varley:
Excellent. This has been a fantastic conversation. Thank
Matt Varley:
you both so much for being willing to come on and share
Matt Varley:
your insights. I know our listeners really appreciate it.
Matt Varley:
We've got Matt Varley from aura, Marshall singer from ruvna. We
Matt Varley:
look forward to seeing you guys at the Atlas conference coming
Matt Varley:
up soon, which will have passed when this airs. So we had a
Matt Varley:
great time. We had a great time in Columbus. We could say, I'm
Matt Varley:
sure we will. I
Bill Stites:
want to point out one thing, because,
Hiram Cuevas:
oh, shocking. Bill wants to point out something.
Bill Stites:
The reason I thought I knew what the MCP was
Bill Stites:
is because I'm an 80s nerd, and the MCP was the master control
Bill Stites:
program in the Tron movie, right? So that's why I was,
Bill Stites:
like, I've heard MCP before. Where is this? And that's why I
Bill Stites:
was scared of it, because MCP was the villain in the Tron
Bill Stites:
movie, and this is not the villain, all right? And with
Bill Stites:
that, I think we've reached end of line.
Peter Frank:
You're welcome.
Bill Stites:
Yes. Thank you. There you go, Peter. Thank you.
Peter Frank:
Thank you so much, everybody. We will put Sean
Peter Frank:
Stites location in the show notes. This has been talking
Peter Frank:
technology with ATLIS, produced by the Association of technology
Peter Frank:
leaders in independent schools. For more information about Atlas
Peter Frank:
and Atlas membership. Please visit the atlas.org if you
Peter Frank:
enjoyed this discussion, please subscribe, leave a review and
Peter Frank:
share this podcast with your colleagues in the independent
Peter Frank:
school community. Thank you for listening. You.
