Centering Pedagogy through Agile Systems and Collaborative AI Leadership
Presented by:
Jamie Sullivan, TLIS, joins the podcast to share her veteran perspective on shifting from rigid software platforms to agile, user-centric systems. She discusses the power of regional collaboration through her year-long AI leadership cohort and explains why technology departments must prioritize "academic teching" to keep the focus on student learning.
Transcript
Bill Stites:
Matt,
Peter Frank:
welcome to Talking technology with ATLIS, the show
Peter Frank:
that plugs you into the important topics and trends for
Peter Frank:
technology leaders all through a unique Independent School lens.
Peter Frank:
We'll hear stories from technology directors and other
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special guests from the Independent School community,
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and provide you with focused learning and deep dive topics.
Peter Frank:
Welcome to Talking technology with ATLIS. I am Peter Frank,
Peter Frank:
the interim CEO of the Association of technology
Peter Frank:
leaders in independent schools,
Bill Stites:
and I'm Bill Stites, the Director of
Bill Stites:
Technology at Montclair Kimberly Academy in Montclair, New
Bill Stites:
Jersey.
Peter Frank:
All right, Bill, well, welcome. It's the two of
Peter Frank:
us, and we're recording on a Monday. We don't always record
Peter Frank:
on Mondays. How are you
Bill Stites:
feeling?
Bill Stites:
I'm getting over my weekend, my youngest son, who you don't
Bill Stites:
often hear me talk about my buddy there, Craig. He had a
Bill Stites:
production of Cinderella at college. He was on the stage
Bill Stites:
crew, so we went down yesterday and watched that. It was
Bill Stites:
interesting, because I saw him be involved with that when he
Bill Stites:
was in high school and now in college, and just comparing the
Bill Stites:
two different productions was kind of interesting, you know,
Bill Stites:
so was a good weekend. But some time on the road, you know,
Bill Stites:
driving down to college, sitting through that, driving back,
Bill Stites:
makes for a long day as a
Peter Frank:
great opportunity to listen to podcasts like this
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one.
Bill Stites:
Nope. Brooke is not having
Bill Stites:
it.
Peter Frank:
Brooke says No,
Bill Stites:
she doesn't understand anything about what
Bill Stites:
I'm talking about. On a good day, hearing multiple people
Bill Stites:
talk about it is even worse.
Bill Stites:
You
Peter Frank:
can tell yourself it's a lack of understanding. I
Peter Frank:
feel like there might be another element to that, like maybe she
Peter Frank:
just,
Bill Stites:
I'm sure there is.
Peter Frank:
She hears your voice plenty enough, perhaps.
Peter Frank:
And like the idea of, like, listening to it more like that
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could be part of it, too.
Bill Stites:
Exactly.
Peter Frank:
I had a funny experience this weekend. My 14
Peter Frank:
year old plays travel basketball, and we had a local
Peter Frank:
tournament. We got home, it was late, but Bill, I know you're a
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huge music fan. I've started watching Coachella, like the
Peter Frank:
Coachella Music Festival, that's not something I would ever do,
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but they broadcast free both weekends. YouTube just
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broadcasts it, and it's this professional production, like,
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it's amazing, and it's all free. But in a former life, I was a
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wedding DJ, a party DJ, but I never did the like, EDM tech, no
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kind of music. So that fascinates me to watch people do
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it. So I'd pay attention to that. And my daughter, she's 10,
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we had a rave, just totally impromptu. That's awesome,
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because I just it was late, and I was like, I don't know, pick
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one of the stages at Coachella, and it was EDM, and I'm like,
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fascinated, and she's like, what's this? And by like, half
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an hour later, she had a little karaoke machine with LED lights
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that just lights up the whole room with all these moving
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lights. And I got some glow sticks, and we just had this
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impromptu rave out of nowhere for a while. It was great.
Bill Stites:
I wish I could have seen that.
Peter Frank:
It was really good. And we love to talk about our
Peter Frank:
kids on the show. I was wondering, do you have like, a
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memory that it just came out of nowhere? It was not part of the
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plan, but something just happened with your kids, or
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maybe not with your kids, but just those moments in life that
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would come up. It's like, man, we had no plan for that. It just
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happened. And we will talk about that for a long, long time.
Bill Stites:
It's not like the one specific thing, like
Bill Stites:
something like that. It's like the one liners that they come up
Bill Stites:
with out of nowhere. And this is the one thing that we absolutely
Bill Stites:
love. Because when Craig was in like, kindergarten, and we were
Bill Stites:
driving back from a trip to Disney, and we see signs for the
Bill Stites:
state capital of Florida. And we asked Craig, we're like, Craig,
Bill Stites:
what's the capital of Florida? And he said, F lost it. Just
Bill Stites:
finished this work, like in school around the capitals,
Peter Frank:
yeah. And
Bill Stites:
then we were like, You know what, Craig, you're
Bill Stites:
right, the capital is F.
Peter Frank:
That's wonderful. So let's bring in our guests, a
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long time valued member of our community, an atlas member.
Peter Frank:
Here, we want to introduce Jamie Sullivan. Jamie, why don't you
Peter Frank:
say hello to our audience, welcome to the podcast, and just
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tell us a bit about yourself, your school and whatnot.
Jamie Sullivan:
Great. Thanks for having me also. Before I get
Jamie Sullivan:
started, I've been to Coachella 10 times.
Bill Stites:
Are you serious? That's awesome.
Jamie Sullivan:
Yes. I have my oldest. I have four children. My
Jamie Sullivan:
oldest, for her senior gift, she wanted to go to Coachella, so I
Jamie Sullivan:
took her, and then she went to school at Chapman in Southern
Jamie Sullivan:
California. So we went to Coachella every year after that,
Jamie Sullivan:
forever. And then I went with a girlfriend. I went once without
Jamie Sullivan:
my family or my children. I took my husband for, I think I want
Jamie Sullivan:
to say, like our 25th or something anniversary, we took
Jamie Sullivan:
two of the girls and my husband, and that was really fun. Then I
Jamie Sullivan:
went with a girlfriend, just two adults, at Coachella, which was
Jamie Sullivan:
really fun.
Bill Stites:
I've got to ask this question, because, other
Bill Stites:
than Coachella, the other music festival that I would have loved
Bill Stites:
to have gone to, and friends of mine did in South California.
Bill Stites:
Have you ever been to Burning Man?
Jamie Sullivan:
I. Haven't done Burning Man, I have friends that
Jamie Sullivan:
have done Burning Man that just hasn't totally like it's not all
Jamie Sullivan:
about the music. I'm a festival person, so I've gone to many
Jamie Sullivan:
festivals. And last year, my second child wanted to go to a
Jamie Sullivan:
festival in Norway, so we went to Oslo, and it's their festival
Jamie Sullivan:
in Oslo, and it was amazing.
Peter Frank:
We might need to schedule a second podcast
Peter Frank:
episode exactly, just to talk about music and festivals or
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whatnot. That would be fun. Tell us a little bit about your
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journey and your school and you
Jamie Sullivan:
Okay, so I am the director of tech right now
Jamie Sullivan:
at Castilleja school in Palo Alto. It's an all girls school,
Jamie Sullivan:
grade six to 12, and we have about 416 students, and a very
Jamie Sullivan:
definite Middle School and Upper School. I have been here for, I
Jamie Sullivan:
think this is my 16th year before that, I was at Sacred
Jamie Sullivan:
Heart schools in Atherton, and I started at Sacred Heart schools
Jamie Sullivan:
in San Francisco in the very early days of tech as a computer
Jamie Sullivan:
teacher. So it's been a long journey and a really fun,
Jamie Sullivan:
interesting journey, but where we sit here in Palo Alto is on a
Jamie Sullivan:
city block surrounded by neighbors and houses. The
Jamie Sullivan:
schools been here since 1907 and it was originally created to get
Jamie Sullivan:
women to go to college to Stanford, because we were just a
Jamie Sullivan:
stone's throw away from Stanford, and that was the
Jamie Sullivan:
original purpose. I think it had different iterations, from a K
Jamie Sullivan:
through 12 school. There was like a primary school. There
Jamie Sullivan:
were actually boys here at one time. Most of the girls here do
Jamie Sullivan:
not know that ever happened, but I am the mock trial advisor at
Jamie Sullivan:
Castile as well. The last three years, maybe four years since
Jamie Sullivan:
covid, because we saw him on covid First time, there's a
Jamie Sullivan:
judge that volunteers for mock trial. And mock trial is where
Jamie Sullivan:
the students go as a team. They compete in their county, and
Jamie Sullivan:
then they can go to state and whatever. They all get the same
Jamie Sullivan:
case. They have a prosecution, defense team and all of this.
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And one of the judges, male judge, who's volunteering, said,
Jamie Sullivan:
I went to castilleia, and all the girls were like, I don't
Jamie Sullivan:
know you are, but he did it, and the girls almost fell off their
Jamie Sullivan:
chairs. And he was like, I did. I went to kindergarten there,
Jamie Sullivan:
and sure enough, he is on this picture from very long time ago.
Peter Frank:
Oh, wow.
Jamie Sullivan:
Boys sitting in the front row. So it is a girls
Jamie Sullivan:
school, but we did have boys months. The school right now is
Jamie Sullivan:
getting ready to undergo a huge construction project. We are
Jamie Sullivan:
rebuilding all of our learning spaces, three quarters of the
Jamie Sullivan:
campus over the next 24 months. So
Peter Frank:
wow,
Jamie Sullivan:
we're in a crazy time. It's taken us a long time
Jamie Sullivan:
to get here, and everybody's really excited about it.
Peter Frank:
Nice.
Jamie Sullivan:
I was the director of academic tech prior
Jamie Sullivan:
to being the director of tech, and right now I'm kind of in
Jamie Sullivan:
both roles, and have been for a couple of years, and we're
Jamie Sullivan:
really needing to hire that next position, but we're kind of
Jamie Sullivan:
taking our time to figure out what that is.
Peter Frank:
Sure there's plenty going on, plenty of change. We
Peter Frank:
often have capital project conversations, so maybe we'll
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bring you back at some point after your project is over, and
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you can share stories and lessons learned and whatnot. But
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we know you've had a lot of experience and from your bio and
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conversations that we've had prior with other people on the
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staff or whatnot, we associate you with a philosophy finding
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tech that gives you flexibility to structure it for the school's
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needs, rather than letting the technology or the software or
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whatnot drive what the school's gonna do. So to start off, can
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you talk about, if there are tech directors that are feeling
Peter Frank:
maybe trapped by your current platform or whatnot, how do you
Peter Frank:
begin to flip that script so that the pedagogy stays in the
Peter Frank:
driver's seat?
Jamie Sullivan:
I've been doing this for a really long time, and
Jamie Sullivan:
I've seen so many technologies come and go and disrupt. And I'm
Jamie Sullivan:
also, as anybody will tell you, I am an optimist always. I feel
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like there's always a way to do what you want to do in the way
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that you want to do it, but you have to get creative about it,
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and it's not always the most direct way. So I feel like,
Jamie Sullivan:
especially in independent schools, I've always been in
Jamie Sullivan:
independent schools since forever, and I have to say we do
Jamie Sullivan:
things differently, and every school does them a little
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differently, and I feel like most of my job is finding
Jamie Sullivan:
solutions for people. And sometimes they're tech
Jamie Sullivan:
solutions, sometimes they're a process, sometimes they're a way
Jamie Sullivan:
to get somewhere. And I feel like that's sort of our gift to
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the school, is really being able to sort of think bigger about
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how we do things, and then try to really explore and talk to
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colleagues. I mean, that's the one thing I have to say my
Jamie Sullivan:
colleagues through ATLIS, through the Bay Area, we have a
Jamie Sullivan:
Bayes net community that we've had since the 1990s and we
Jamie Sullivan:
communicate. We. Share and when I'm looking for a solution. So
Jamie Sullivan:
our recent LMS change, we had been with an LMS for about 10
Jamie Sullivan:
years, and it's a long time to be with anything. And before
Jamie Sullivan:
that, we were extremely independent, and everybody did
Jamie Sullivan:
whatever they wanted, which is a whole different kind of issue.
Jamie Sullivan:
So when we decided to go with one. It was great, you know,
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with student experience, that's what we're trying to do. But
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then it got to the point, over the last probably four or five
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years, where we were kind of stuck. It was like we could only
Jamie Sullivan:
do what the LMS allowed us to do, and we had to create Google
Jamie Sullivan:
Sheets, and we had to create other solutions over here to do
Jamie Sullivan:
the innovative things that we wanted to do throughout the
Jamie Sullivan:
school, and we're always trying to pilot new ways of doing
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things to help make learning visible for students, to try to
Jamie Sullivan:
divert them from that A, B, C, D, like, how do we get them to
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look at what they're learning? And so we've done a lot with
Jamie Sullivan:
standards and exploring and experimenting and piloting, and
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we really couldn't do anything in the LMS we were in, and we
Jamie Sullivan:
were kind of saddled with it. I felt like all we could do, and
Jamie Sullivan:
everybody, I mean, over a couple of years, everybody was sort of
Jamie Sullivan:
on the same page. We can only do this here, and everything else
Jamie Sullivan:
we could do somewhere else. And that was a big push for us to
Jamie Sullivan:
think about, why are we doing what the software tells us we
Jamie Sullivan:
can do? And I do feel like in looking at Tech over the last
Jamie Sullivan:
five or six years, more of the programs that we use are moving
Jamie Sullivan:
that direction, trying to be a little more agile, a little more
Jamie Sullivan:
flexible, a little more user centric, like giving you the
Jamie Sullivan:
options, and you choose what you're going to implement or
Jamie Sullivan:
utilize, and I don't feel like that was the way it was before.
Jamie Sullivan:
We were just so happy to have a program that did this or did
Jamie Sullivan:
that, and now we're really asking for more, and I think
Jamie Sullivan:
it's great,
Peter Frank:
sure that makes a lot of sense, and I'm familiar
Peter Frank:
with that balance when as the software, hey, we want it to be
Peter Frank:
as flexible as possible, and we want to give the users as many
Peter Frank:
options as possible. But now you're into that, what I
Peter Frank:
associate with iOS versus Windows, or Android versus
Peter Frank:
Apple, you get into that you've got to strike that balance of
Peter Frank:
sometimes it's too many options, and people kind of freeze up. So
Peter Frank:
I'm curious, how do you look at that kind of situation where you
Peter Frank:
want to maintain that flexibility, but yet you don't
Peter Frank:
want it to be so taxing on the user that it's just too much,
Peter Frank:
and I'm not gonna use it right, because some people just throw
Peter Frank:
their hands up
Bill Stites:
and say, forget it.
Jamie Sullivan:
And I do think part of that is getting the
Jamie Sullivan:
right people around the table in coming up with norms and the way
Jamie Sullivan:
that you're going to do things, we really had to come up with
Jamie Sullivan:
conventions. And when we switched, you know, we moved
Jamie Sullivan:
from one LMS to Toddle, which offered a lot, but it was under
Jamie Sullivan:
construction quite honestly, and everybody knew it, and I was
Jamie Sullivan:
very transparent about that from the get go, but it was either
Jamie Sullivan:
sitting in where we were or forging ahead with the
Jamie Sullivan:
understanding we were all going to have to be working together.
Jamie Sullivan:
So I work with thankfully, I have a retired teacher who
Jamie Sullivan:
decided to do her gap year as my Toddle associate, and she is
Jamie Sullivan:
amazing. And she calls it a gap year. She loves it. She's having
Jamie Sullivan:
so much fun not being in the classroom, but being able to
Jamie Sullivan:
sort of work with us as we forge ahead, and I also have the gift
Jamie Sullivan:
of the Director of Institutional Research and teacher support. So
Jamie Sullivan:
she's been here a long time. She's worked with teachers on
Jamie Sullivan:
assessments, all sorts of things. She came with an EE Ford
Jamie Sullivan:
grant a long, long time ago, and we never let her go. So she also
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helps us sort of make sure that there's clarity about what we're
Jamie Sullivan:
going to do and how we're going to do it. And we have different
Jamie Sullivan:
groups doing different things, and that's okay, but knowing
Jamie Sullivan:
what those parameters are and how we're going to use the tool
Jamie Sullivan:
and reaching out to those people that want to explore something
Jamie Sullivan:
new and giving them that, but also giving the people that just
Jamie Sullivan:
really want to do what they do, and you know, it's challenging,
Jamie Sullivan:
and yet they knew the struggle right that we were in trying to
Jamie Sullivan:
make a decision. So when we decided to go with it, they knew
Jamie Sullivan:
it was the right thing, but they also knew this is all I want to
Jamie Sullivan:
do, and this is what I did, and it was okay before. So if you're
Jamie Sullivan:
going to do this, you have to show me how I can do that. So we
Jamie Sullivan:
had really structured professional development. We
Jamie Sullivan:
spent a lot of time coming up with checklists for teachers and
Jamie Sullivan:
putting all those pieces together for them so that they
Jamie Sullivan:
have the support. We also have multiple venues for support for
Jamie Sullivan:
them. So we do drop ins. They come in, they have Toddle
Jamie Sullivan:
support at CAST delay.org where they can email anytime and get
Jamie Sullivan:
support from multiple people. But we really had to pick and
Jamie Sullivan:
choose what parts of the LMS we wanted to use. We had to be
Jamie Sullivan:
specific. And Toddle is amazing, and they're always iterating,
Jamie Sullivan:
which is great. And Toddle. Challenging at times. So we've
Jamie Sullivan:
kind of found our flow. And I would say no one wants to go
Jamie Sullivan:
back. That's for sure.
Bill Stites:
You've said so many things that I want to comment
Bill Stites:
on. Bill's brain is spinning. You can see it on his face. I
Bill Stites:
know I'm writing stuff down. I've got all this stuff, you
Bill Stites:
know. But you mentioned your gap year person, you mentioned
Bill Stites:
having somebody on from an IR perspective, which in another
Bill Stites:
facet of my life I spend a lot of time on. I'm very interested
Bill Stites:
in what I'd like to really ask you to do, and this is just to
Bill Stites:
go back and then we can jump forward again. One of the things
Bill Stites:
I'm always interested in is, what does your department there
Bill Stites:
look like outside of you who else is there in support of
Bill Stites:
everything that's going on from the tech, the Ed Tech
Bill Stites:
perspective.
Jamie Sullivan:
So when I came in as interim tech director, a
Jamie Sullivan:
tech director was leaving, and they asked me to come in as
Jamie Sullivan:
interim, and that was great, but I haven't been able to leave as
Jamie Sullivan:
interim. And I loved academic technology. I was a director of
Jamie Sullivan:
tech at Sacred Heart for a long time, and I moved into academic
Jamie Sullivan:
tech when I got my doctorate, that was going to be my like. I
Jamie Sullivan:
need to get back to teaching and learning. I'm tired of looking
Jamie Sullivan:
at switches and ports, and none of this brings me joy. So I
Jamie Sullivan:
intentionally got out of that world and really loved it here
Jamie Sullivan:
and Castille as structure. When I came into this role was that
Jamie Sullivan:
academic tech fell under academics. It did not fall under
Jamie Sullivan:
tech. And so it was amazing in so many ways, I worked strictly
Jamie Sullivan:
with academics. It's not that I didn't talk to tech or work with
Jamie Sullivan:
tech on things, but I didn't touch hardware and I didn't
Jamie Sullivan:
install software necessarily. I had my own budget for academic
Jamie Sullivan:
software and all of that, but I worked with teachers and
Jamie Sullivan:
students period. I loved that. So when I took on this other
Jamie Sullivan:
role, they were like, it's just for a short while, and it has
Jamie Sullivan:
been not too long, couple years, but longer than I anticipated. I
Jamie Sullivan:
have an amazing team Help Desk, Ian, who had, at that time when
Jamie Sullivan:
I came into interim, he was just starting, so he was like, What's
Jamie Sullivan:
going on here? And who is she? Because I wasn't really one of
Jamie Sullivan:
the people that interviewed him at that time. I was academic
Jamie Sullivan:
tech only. And then Steve Turnbull, who's in your Ali
Jamie Sullivan:
program, and he's amazing, and Steve is my right arm on all
Jamie Sullivan:
things construction and operations and all of those
Jamie Sullivan:
pieces, because there's a lot going on here. And Laurent, who
Jamie Sullivan:
is our systems cybersecurity. And there should be another
Jamie Sullivan:
person, obviously, because I'm two people right now, and we
Jamie Sullivan:
haven't quite defined what that role will be. It's sort of
Jamie Sullivan:
shifted and changed, and quite honestly, I am definitely
Jamie Sullivan:
towards the end of my career. I'm not at the beginning, so I
Jamie Sullivan:
would like to continue academic teching as long as I can, and
Jamie Sullivan:
keep my hand in that. So it's been sort of also something
Jamie Sullivan:
where I'm like, I don't know that. I want to give that up
Jamie Sullivan:
100% and yet, this other job does take a lot of my time, and
Jamie Sullivan:
when I leave Castille at that will be, I'm not going to be at
Jamie Sullivan:
another school, so I want to make sure I leave them with the
Jamie Sullivan:
right structure for them going forward. So I'm really taking my
Jamie Sullivan:
time thinking about that and talking to a lot of people, a
Jamie Sullivan:
lot of my colleagues throughout ATLIS and the Bay Area, and
Jamie Sullivan:
thinking about what that will be. Because right now our
Jamie Sullivan:
school, we're losing three quarters of our learning spaces,
Jamie Sullivan:
so it's going to be a different game for a couple of years. We
Jamie Sullivan:
have two buildings that will remain, and then we have a
Jamie Sullivan:
temporary campus, a two story, portable campus on our field
Jamie Sullivan:
that sits on top of an underground garage that we just
Jamie Sullivan:
built. So there's a lot going on here, and I don't feel that I
Jamie Sullivan:
know exactly what we're going to need just yet. You know, in
Jamie Sullivan:
looking at the new plans, it's going to be an extraordinary
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campus, and I want to prepare the school for that, because
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that is the future, and I want to make sure they have the right
Jamie Sullivan:
people in the right places. And so we have sort of been back and
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forth, and we have a new head of school this year who's amazing,
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and she's also been a really great thought partner on that,
Jamie Sullivan:
sort of, what do we really need and what will we need? So that's
Jamie Sullivan:
where I'm at with staffing, but we have a really tight team. We
Jamie Sullivan:
are BYOD school too, so we don't manage the devices, which takes
Jamie Sullivan:
a bit off out of our realm, but there's a lot going on. The
Jamie Sullivan:
first thing I did when I took over as interim tech director
Jamie Sullivan:
was literally removed everything on prem and moved everything
Jamie Sullivan:
into the cloud. Streamlined a lot of things. We just moved to
Jamie Sullivan:
Veracross, so we were able to integrate all of these things
Jamie Sullivan:
that happened 24 probably I was able to streamline a lot so we
Jamie Sullivan:
are much more efficient than we were then. There were a lot of
Jamie Sullivan:
parts in. Pieces then. So that's been really helpful.
Peter Frank:
Bill's brain is just spinning even more now.
Bill Stites:
Oh, I know.
Peter Frank:
And I never heard academic teching before. Is that
Peter Frank:
mean we should fold into our I like that a lot. Academic
Peter Frank:
teching. I
Bill Stites:
want to go back to this because you mentioned your
Bill Stites:
IR person. You mentioned the person that you've got that's
Bill Stites:
doing the Toddle piece. Are there any other groups like I
Bill Stites:
think about our librarians, how closely we work with those. I
Bill Stites:
think about our buildings and grounds guys, and just the
Bill Stites:
amount of work that goes in there, you know. And some of the
Bill Stites:
other committees that I'm on that aren't tech, but you're on
Bill Stites:
them. Are there any other relationships that you've got in
Bill Stites:
the school? What do those look like?
Jamie Sullivan:
For sure. So one of the things about castilleia
Jamie Sullivan:
is that we're grades six through 12. We don't teach tech courses,
Jamie Sullivan:
we don't teach maker courses, we don't teach those kinds of
Jamie Sullivan:
courses. Everything is integrated. It's a different
Jamie Sullivan:
model. Some people are like, I just want to teach great things.
Jamie Sullivan:
So there have been people that this just is not up their alley.
Jamie Sullivan:
It's not what they want to do. They really want to teach. And
Jamie Sullivan:
for us, everything's integrated. So the Maker Space people, we've
Jamie Sullivan:
had a maker space since the early days, and those people
Jamie Sullivan:
definitely work with the teachers. They have different
Jamie Sullivan:
windows of time, but everything is integrated with curriculum.
Jamie Sullivan:
So you're working with other teachers, bringing them into the
Jamie Sullivan:
makerspace during history to create monuments of women after
Jamie Sullivan:
the DC trip. And you know, what would a woman's monument look
Jamie Sullivan:
like to you? So we work really hard to do that, and it's super
Jamie Sullivan:
intentional, and we are so used to it that, like you said, there
Jamie Sullivan:
are all these people I do work with that head of facilities,
Jamie Sullivan:
especially right now, as we are moving people out of these
Jamie Sullivan:
buildings, they intend to demo, literally right after graduation
Jamie Sullivan:
or deconstruct. You can't demo anymore, but they intend to do
Jamie Sullivan:
it as soon as Brad is over. So we are working with them, and my
Jamie Sullivan:
team is running over like getting new offices set up where
Jamie Sullivan:
people are doubling up in some of the spaces that are going to
Jamie Sullivan:
remain. And I also work with them all the time on everything.
Jamie Sullivan:
We're looking at new software to streamline our ticketing so that
Jamie Sullivan:
facilities and tech can ticket together. We were looking at one
Jamie Sullivan:
now we're thinking about a different thing. So we all work
Jamie Sullivan:
together on that. I also work with the Health and Safety
Jamie Sullivan:
Director, Jesse. She is key, especially with this temp campus
Jamie Sullivan:
and all the things that we're putting in and we're moving and
Jamie Sullivan:
are the speaker systems going to work via this versus that? And
Jamie Sullivan:
so I am coordinating I work. I guess the tech director position
Jamie Sullivan:
here falls under finance and operations that sort of realm.
Jamie Sullivan:
So we all meet weekly and coordinate on everything from
Jamie Sullivan:
the temp campus move to these other spaces. Will we have
Jamie Sullivan:
summer camp? Will we not have summer camp? You know, all the
Jamie Sullivan:
summer operations that still intend to happen, so all of
Jamie Sullivan:
those people, and then for the academic side, primarily it is
Jamie Sullivan:
Karen, our Director of Institutional Research, the dean
Jamie Sullivan:
of faculty, obviously, academic leadership, the Upper School
Jamie Sullivan:
head, the middle school head. We're all in conversation a lot,
Jamie Sullivan:
but I would say that most of the magic happens when I'm working
Jamie Sullivan:
with those other people right and connecting on what they're
Jamie Sullivan:
doing and how we find something. You know, we moved to ruvna
Jamie Sullivan:
Recently, but we had three programs that were doing
Jamie Sullivan:
different things, and those conversations and putting those
Jamie Sullivan:
pieces together are what makes everything work. Here, for sure,
Bill Stites:
it brings to light the breadth and the depth of
Bill Stites:
what tech directors, again, we were talking about this before
Bill Stites:
we went live, and it was like, what is it that you're saying
Bill Stites:
that resonates with other people in this role? And it's the sheer
Bill Stites:
scope of what we need to deal with and how we need to start
Bill Stites:
thinking about those things. Because it's not just looking at
Bill Stites:
the switches and all of the ports and dealing with that,
Bill Stites:
it's really being able to talk to fluently all of those
Bill Stites:
departments in a way that can connect all of those pieces,
Bill Stites:
because we really do sit at the intersection of so many of those
Bill Stites:
different things.
Jamie Sullivan:
One of the things I think I'm very
Jamie Sullivan:
fortunate in is that two of my daughters went to Castle, so
Jamie Sullivan:
I've been a parent volunteer since before I came here to
Jamie Sullivan:
work. I also know everyone because of those different
Jamie Sullivan:
roles. I know the Advancement team. I know the facilities
Jamie Sullivan:
team. Help with calendaring. You know, as tech people, for the
Jamie Sullivan:
most part, I'm certain everyone can resonate with this. If
Jamie Sullivan:
there's a calendar thing and I'm trying to do this thing, but it
Jamie Sullivan:
needs to be on the website, and it needs to happen here, you
Jamie Sullivan:
know, go talk to the website people. Never do we say that.
Jamie Sullivan:
We're like, Sure, let's talk about let's figure out how we do
Jamie Sullivan:
that. So I feel like I have a connection with everyone from
Jamie Sullivan:
communications to advancement to facilities to the food service
Jamie Sullivan:
people. If there's something I need. To set up for them. So I
Jamie Sullivan:
feel like I'm very lucky to sort of know the inside too as a
Jamie Sullivan:
parent, and understand what parents expectations are and
Jamie Sullivan:
things like that too.
Bill Stites:
So as you think about that, just the vast number
Bill Stites:
of perspectives, you've been at the school for a while, this is
Bill Stites:
going to be your last place that you're going to be at, we've
Bill Stites:
spent a lot of time asking people how they are thinking
Bill Stites:
about succession planning. Like, how do you not only prepare
Bill Stites:
those people that you're working with for potentially making that
Bill Stites:
step up, or really prepping the school for, like, okay, if I'm
Bill Stites:
only here for x, amount of time more you need to be thinking
Bill Stites:
about X, Y and Z things because of, again, that breadth, that
Bill Stites:
scope that we talked about. Have you started thinking about those
Bill Stites:
things? Have those conversations come up? What does that look
Bill Stites:
like for you?
Jamie Sullivan:
Yeah, I think about it every day. I think
Jamie Sullivan:
especially with all these transitions and things where we
Jamie Sullivan:
are having people pack their goods and go to a portable and
Jamie Sullivan:
some of your stuff is going to have to go to storage, and some
Jamie Sullivan:
will be stored you can get to any day, and some storage for
Jamie Sullivan:
two years. So we have an amazing faculty, an amazing staff. They
Jamie Sullivan:
are amazingly agile, and they understand where we're going.
Jamie Sullivan:
They want to be part of this community, and they know how
Jamie Sullivan:
long it's taken us to get here, and so they work really hard.
Jamie Sullivan:
They love what they do, and we also have amazing students
Jamie Sullivan:
families. I am so fortunate, and I love working here, and I have
Jamie Sullivan:
to I'm constantly thinking about leaving them in the best way
Jamie Sullivan:
possible I can, and I feel like our entire department thinks
Jamie Sullivan:
that way, and whether somebody in our department wants to step
Jamie Sullivan:
up and be in this role, those are things we're going to be
Jamie Sullivan:
talking about right now. We're a bit mired with our move to
Jamie Sullivan:
portables and all of that, but we definitely are looking every
Jamie Sullivan:
day at what we need best. And one of the things that I'm
Jamie Sullivan:
thinking a lot about is data governance. Because we moved to
Jamie Sullivan:
Veracross just end of 2023 we fully implemented, and it's been
Jamie Sullivan:
great before that we literally had different systems, sometimes
Jamie Sullivan:
the same system, but it didn't talk to the other person's
Jamie Sullivan:
system. So we had a lot of great system people doing great work.
Jamie Sullivan:
Nothing wasn't happening, but it wasn't as streamlined. So I
Jamie Sullivan:
really want us to explore, especially with AI and all the
Jamie Sullivan:
things that are happening. And want to make sure that we
Jamie Sullivan:
document, document, document. I want to make sure that people
Jamie Sullivan:
know what we do and how we do it, and what connects to what,
Jamie Sullivan:
and all of those things. And Allie Wensel has been a huge
Jamie Sullivan:
help when I moved into this role. Ally is my bestie, and she
Jamie Sullivan:
and I have done some consulting together with educational
Jamie Sullivan:
collaborators and other things. And she's right down the road.
Jamie Sullivan:
She's been my partner, and that was one of the things that I
Jamie Sullivan:
insisted on, I was like, You know what? I'm moving into this
Jamie Sullivan:
interim role, and I really want to make sure I have the support
Jamie Sullivan:
I need to do what I do. So with Veracross being relatively new
Jamie Sullivan:
to the school, and me new to this role, and trying to
Jamie Sullivan:
streamline things and integrate some things with Veracross, the
Jamie Sullivan:
school was really supportive, and getting me the support that
Jamie Sullivan:
I needed to make sure that I was doing the best job that I could
Jamie Sullivan:
given everything that we had going on. So Ally came, and she
Jamie Sullivan:
really was my guide on the side. Everything I put together, I
Jamie Sullivan:
just, you know, hear me out. What do you think? And she was a
Jamie Sullivan:
great sounding board, great support. And then I had Tye
Jamie Sullivan:
Campbell.
Peter Frank:
It's an embarrassment of riches here.
Jamie Sullivan:
I know I felt so grateful that they agreed to do
Jamie Sullivan:
it. First of all, he helped on the Veracross side, and he was
Jamie Sullivan:
there when we needed support for things. You know, we've been in
Jamie Sullivan:
Veracross Less than a year, and I did not know everything, nor
Jamie Sullivan:
did we have a database manager for Veracross, which is
Jamie Sullivan:
something I'd like to also consider for the school going
Jamie Sullivan:
forward. And again, it's on the list of many things, but we
Jamie Sullivan:
don't have an administrator. It's kind of parsed out, and
Jamie Sullivan:
that's okay in some ways. You know, admissions really manages
Jamie Sullivan:
admissions, and they do a great job, but tye's worked with them.
Jamie Sullivan:
So Tye knows everyone here. I have to get him, like a
Jamie Sullivan:
sweatshirt or something, because he definitely is an honorary
Jamie Sullivan:
castellan member here, and Ali as well. So been really lucky
Jamie Sullivan:
with that, but I really want to document. There's a lot of
Jamie Sullivan:
documentation. I just want to make sure we review it, and that
Jamie Sullivan:
is put in a fashion that we can really utilize going forward. If
Jamie Sullivan:
we all walked away, somebody would know what to do. Nice,
Bill Stites:
yeah,
Peter Frank:
you're name dropping lots of people who've
Peter Frank:
been on this podcast and lots of people familiar in the Atlas
Peter Frank:
community. And it's just another testament too. We see it all the
Peter Frank:
time, especially in this community. I don't know that
Peter Frank:
people can appreciate it if they're not from this community.
Peter Frank:
I'm a longtime Association professional Atlas is my. Fourth
Peter Frank:
Association, if not my fifth, but of all the communities that
Peter Frank:
I've been a part of and been supporting, I've seen nothing
Peter Frank:
like I see here. And I hope if any of our listeners are newer
Peter Frank:
to the Community Technology Leaders, or just on the tech
Peter Frank:
team period, it is really like that. You can just find people
Peter Frank:
on LinkedIn, or you meet them at conference, or you meet them in
Peter Frank:
places, and they will totally pick up the phone and they will
Peter Frank:
help you like no one should feel shy about that. This is such a
Peter Frank:
supporting community, so I hope others do that. Coincidentally,
Peter Frank:
talking about succession and Ali Wenzel, especially, we know this
Peter Frank:
is passionate for her, I'm curious your thoughts. Jamie,
Peter Frank:
about succession for you. Tanya, just for a second, take a step
Peter Frank:
back, not just at your school, but in this community in
Peter Frank:
general, there's a lot of talk about succession and how many
Peter Frank:
people are coming in from other industries like they used to.
Peter Frank:
How many people are staying with it? As long What is your
Peter Frank:
perspective, as far as the landscape there and what's
Peter Frank:
coming as far as once this generation of technology leaders
Peter Frank:
are moving on, and I've noticed many of you want to stick around
Peter Frank:
longer. I've seen many people retire, but they're still
Peter Frank:
they're still volunteering at ATLIS. They're still in touch
Peter Frank:
with their school. So yeah, succession, how do you see that
Peter Frank:
for the community at large here,
Jamie Sullivan:
I could definitely be retired. Let's
Jamie Sullivan:
just say that, and I'm not which is crazy. My husband's been
Jamie Sullivan:
retired for like 10 years, and he worked at Xerox Palo Alto
Jamie Sullivan:
Research Center for like 30 years, and he's like, why? And
Jamie Sullivan:
I'm like, I'm still having fun, and I want to leave this school
Jamie Sullivan:
in a good place, like there are a couple things, and want to
Jamie Sullivan:
make sure that I leave things feeling good. I love this place,
Jamie Sullivan:
and I think that's what a lot of us did. But I gotta say, I have
Jamie Sullivan:
been so fortunate to work with some of the younger people
Jamie Sullivan:
coming in and newer leaders, a couple that are on the ATLIS
Jamie Sullivan:
board. I have been so fortunate to work with them, to present
Jamie Sullivan:
with them, and we are in very good hands in that regard, I
Jamie Sullivan:
have no doubt about that, and I'm excited. I feel like we have
Jamie Sullivan:
a lot of gifts, and we bring a lot, and it's great, as people
Jamie Sullivan:
that have been doing this for a long time, but talking with some
Jamie Sullivan:
of the newer tech directors, or people that have just been in
Jamie Sullivan:
this for, you know, 10 years, they just bring some really
Jamie Sullivan:
fresh ideas. They just have a different perspective on the
Jamie Sullivan:
world. And yet, we still have a lot of the same core values as
Jamie Sullivan:
we look at Tech in schools and how we do what we do. But they
Jamie Sullivan:
also have boundaries. So there's that, and we do not so well, I
Jamie Sullivan:
have to say, and that will sustain them. I mean, I think
Jamie Sullivan:
that's part of it for us. Like you said, we all want to Yeah,
Jamie Sullivan:
we want to volunteer. Yeah, I want to be on there. Yes. I'd
Jamie Sullivan:
love to share what I know, yeah, and all the time, not for money,
Jamie Sullivan:
like just to do it because we love what we do. And that's the
Jamie Sullivan:
thing. I think the people that are coming are also looking at
Jamie Sullivan:
the world from a different perspective, with regards to
Jamie Sullivan:
everything, from AI to everything. This is a time for
Jamie Sullivan:
fresh eyes, and I am a firm believer and huge fan of having
Jamie Sullivan:
fresh eyes on anything. That's why our new head of school is
Jamie Sullivan:
amazing and that she sees things. And I'll be like, That's
Jamie Sullivan:
exactly right, yeah, you know, whereas other people might not,
Jamie Sullivan:
but she sees it. So it's great. I think we're in very good hands
Jamie Sullivan:
going forward. And I'm also excited that those of us have
Jamie Sullivan:
been around forever can still share some knowledge and
Jamie Sullivan:
expertise. But also, you know, when I present with people like
Jamie Sullivan:
Jen zenora or Ling Lim like I learned something new every
Jamie Sullivan:
single time.
Peter Frank:
Sure, I love that positive outlook and
Peter Frank:
perspective. I wanted to shift gears because we don't want this
Peter Frank:
conversation to go on without mentioning you've got a special
Peter Frank:
project and cohort going on in your area. You've got this year
Peter Frank:
long AI, leadership cohort there in the Bay Area. And I feel
Peter Frank:
like, you know, sometimes if the people in our community aren't
Peter Frank:
as connected, independent schools might feel like they're
Peter Frank:
a little bit on an island. Tell us about the program. How has
Peter Frank:
this cohort model made a positive impact here on tackling
Peter Frank:
AI,
Jamie Sullivan:
we started, I think in 2024 right after AI
Jamie Sullivan:
came out and about, I think we were all in it about nine
Jamie Sullivan:
months, 10 months, and I was doing every thing I could do,
Jamie Sullivan:
every online thing I was showing up for, it all. And there were
Jamie Sullivan:
amazing programs all over, both in California and throughout
Jamie Sullivan:
ATLIS put on great programs. I was doing everything I could,
Jamie Sullivan:
and yet I felt like, where am I? Am I making any movement here?
Jamie Sullivan:
And I was just struggling with the one hour session or the half
Jamie Sullivan:
day workshop. And in the Bay Area, we have a lot even face to
Jamie Sullivan:
face things. I felt like it was just wasn't moving things along
Jamie Sullivan:
as I had hoped. And I'm sure I was doing just fine, but I
Jamie Sullivan:
really was frustrated myself,
Peter Frank:
sure,
Jamie Sullivan:
and I sat down, like, one weekend, it was like,
Jamie Sullivan:
you know, why can't we have something that goes on for a
Jamie Sullivan:
year, and why can't we have a bunch of other schools? Like,
Jamie Sullivan:
I'm talking to Ali and I'm talking to Eric at nueva and I'm
Jamie Sullivan:
talking to Peter at Christel, and we're talking all the time,
Jamie Sullivan:
but I feel like we're just not making any progress here. Like I
Jamie Sullivan:
feel like I'm not moving the needle enough, and I needed
Jamie Sullivan:
other heads in the game. So I had a rainy weekend, and I sat
Jamie Sullivan:
down and sort of mapped out my ideal professional development
Jamie Sullivan:
would be, you know what? We'd have a year long program,
Jamie Sullivan:
someone like Eric Hudson could, like, be our program leader,
Jamie Sullivan:
facilitate the program, bring the knowledge that we need, or
Jamie Sullivan:
things to think about facilitating us together. And I
Jamie Sullivan:
went to other schools, I was like, I don't want to do this
Jamie Sullivan:
alone, like I could bring Eric here, and we could spend a day
Jamie Sullivan:
with ourselves, and that's amazing, and we have done that,
Jamie Sullivan:
and it's been amazing for our teachers. But I was like, I feel
Jamie Sullivan:
like I need to move leadership. I can't do this alone, and I
Jamie Sullivan:
need more people in this game. So I mapped it out. Every month
Jamie Sullivan:
we'd meet online, and we'd have three full day workshops at the
Jamie Sullivan:
beginning of the year, at the middle of the year, and at the
Jamie Sullivan:
end of the year, where everyone would come together in person.
Jamie Sullivan:
So that limited this to a regional event. I was like, I
Jamie Sullivan:
can't fly people in for a day. I don't think they would get the
Jamie Sullivan:
budget for that, but let me see. So I ran up by my head of
Jamie Sullivan:
school, and she said, go ahead. You can pitch it, because I knew
Jamie Sullivan:
I couldn't ask Eric if she said, Sorry, no, go. So I ran it by a
Jamie Sullivan:
few friends, obviously, and said, What do you think? Am I
Jamie Sullivan:
crazy? Is this good? Is this bad? And they were like, go for
Jamie Sullivan:
it. And I didn't invite anybody or tell anybody about it. I was
Jamie Sullivan:
just like, I want to propose this. I don't even know if it'll
Jamie Sullivan:
happen. So I saw Eric ATLIS, actually, yeah, I reached out to
Jamie Sullivan:
him before ATLIS. And then I said, can we connect at ATLIS?
Jamie Sullivan:
And he said, Sure. So I sent him what I was thinking. I literally
Jamie Sullivan:
had, like, a couple slides about these be the dates, and this is
Jamie Sullivan:
what we do. He and I met, and he said, you know, Jamie, I'm
Jamie Sullivan:
really not going to be teaching people stuff. And I said, No,
Jamie Sullivan:
that is not what this is about. This is a working professional
Jamie Sullivan:
development, and everybody's working on creating leadership
Jamie Sullivan:
in their schools around AI, whatever that means for them. So
Jamie Sullivan:
if you can facilitate that, this will be amazing. And he said
Jamie Sullivan:
that I can do, I think. And I said, okay, so because it was
Jamie Sullivan:
new and I didn't know where this was going to go, I reached out
Jamie Sullivan:
to people I knew schools that I knew that were doing good things
Jamie Sullivan:
and might be interested. I also wanted to make sure we had
Jamie Sullivan:
people that knew that had like schools, so some K through
Jamie Sullivan:
twelves, some nine through twelves, some six through 12.
Jamie Sullivan:
And the first year, we ended up with seven schools, six people
Jamie Sullivan:
in each school. And Eric agreed that was like a good number to
Jamie Sullivan:
start with. We had our first meeting face to face, September
Jamie Sullivan:
of 2024 we decided to start after the school year got kicked
Jamie Sullivan:
off so people weren't frustrated and not doing too many things.
Jamie Sullivan:
And you could pick anybody. So I had like an admission person on
Jamie Sullivan:
there. I put it out there as an application at the school. Then
Jamie Sullivan:
I met with like each person, each school I was inviting. I
Jamie Sullivan:
ran through my little slideshow on what it would look like and
Jamie Sullivan:
would you be interested? This is a pilot, and this is how much it
Jamie Sullivan:
had cost. We basically split the cost of Eric's time, and split
Jamie Sullivan:
the cost of any food that we needed for workshops or
Jamie Sullivan:
whatever. Everybody was in. Nobody said no. So it was a go.
Jamie Sullivan:
And I have to say our first year was so great, just learning from
Jamie Sullivan:
each other, that was a big piece of it. We really wanted to
Jamie Sullivan:
connect with other people and talk about what we were doing.
Jamie Sullivan:
Some people were on policies, other people were on frameworks.
Jamie Sullivan:
Everybody was in a different place. Somebody was creating a
Jamie Sullivan:
class. So we got to present. You got to learn from each other.
Jamie Sullivan:
You got to see share materials. It was great. It was really
Jamie Sullivan:
great. And the mix of people was your school decided who you
Jamie Sullivan:
wanted to bring. We did not decide for you. You bring
Jamie Sullivan:
whoever you want. It was so great that at the end of the
Jamie Sullivan:
year, Eric and I were like, I don't know, what do you think?
Jamie Sullivan:
And so we put it out there, and everybody's like, let's do
Jamie Sullivan:
another year. So we're in year two right now. We added two more
Jamie Sullivan:
schools, and so far so good. We meet this Wednesday online. So
Jamie Sullivan:
we meet online every month that we're not meeting face to face,
Jamie Sullivan:
and we only meet face to face, September, January, June.
Bill Stites:
Are each of the schools bringing their own
Bill Stites:
problem to the group? Or are you focused on, like, trying to
Bill Stites:
solve, like, a specific problem across all schools,
Jamie Sullivan:
they all bring their own. So everybody came
Jamie Sullivan:
with their own priorities in mind. And Eric gives us enough
Jamie Sullivan:
in. Information enough time to share what we're doing. And then
Jamie Sullivan:
every time he starts with a new like, here's what I'm seeing,
Jamie Sullivan:
because he does. He sees so much, and he's able to share
Jamie Sullivan:
that and bring that to the group. And then he gives us time
Jamie Sullivan:
to work in our groups. He usually pairs two groups
Jamie Sullivan:
together that he feels like could learn from each other, and
Jamie Sullivan:
he'll do some time for that. He's just got a great eye for
Jamie Sullivan:
putting those pieces together. And then he also offers a couple
Jamie Sullivan:
hours of coaching time each semester to each school if they
Jamie Sullivan:
choose to use it. And some do, some don't. But I think
Jamie Sullivan:
everybody's taken away some amazing information. They've
Jamie Sullivan:
connected with people on things that they're doing, seeing
Jamie Sullivan:
things that they hadn't even imagined, which is amazing. Been
Jamie Sullivan:
really happy, and it's been a great program for us, and it's
Jamie Sullivan:
incredibly inexpensive. Once you parse it out across seven or
Jamie Sullivan:
nine schools, and people are like, Oh my gosh, I could never
Jamie Sullivan:
do that kind of PD, otherwise,
Bill Stites:
I can imagine there's a lot of sharing,
Bill Stites:
because I would come into something like that with like,
Bill Stites:
an idea of like, okay, I want to focus on this, because this is
Bill Stites:
the one problem. But I wouldn't want to lose the conversations
Bill Stites:
or the resources that maybe some of those other people are using.
Bill Stites:
So knowing that you can kind of come together, you can probably
Bill Stites:
have those times for those shared conversations. And having
Bill Stites:
worked with Eric here at MKA, I know just how well he can work
Bill Stites:
to facilitate those types of conversations amongst those
Bill Stites:
different groups, I'm jealous, is what I'm trying to say. I
Bill Stites:
will fly
Bill Stites:
out, I
Bill Stites:
will find that money, and I will come
Jamie Sullivan:
No, I definitely thought about inviting some
Jamie Sullivan:
schools from LA. I'm like, Oh, God, how big can we get? But the
Jamie Sullivan:
size is really nice. We know each other, we see each other.
Jamie Sullivan:
But he did have me talk to a school on the East Coast that
Jamie Sullivan:
was going to replicate it, but they had a lot more schools. But
Jamie Sullivan:
I know he did that last year, so I just thought it was, like,
Jamie Sullivan:
such a simple idea. Was like, how hard could this be? And
Jamie Sullivan:
people made the time, and they all do have their own priorities
Jamie Sullivan:
and things that their school wants and expects. You know, if
Jamie Sullivan:
you're going to invest in this, here's what we need. So it's
Jamie Sullivan:
been great for us as a school and our teachers. We brought
Jamie Sullivan:
Eric here to do a teacher all day workshop, and all of a
Jamie Sullivan:
sudden, every teacher was walking out of there, can I join
Jamie Sullivan:
that cohort next year? It looks so great. And I didn't realize
Jamie Sullivan:
he was doing this so amazing. I've learned so much. And so
Jamie Sullivan:
they were really excited. So at first it's sort of like, Oh,
Jamie Sullivan:
it's another thing to do. And then once they realized, sort of
Jamie Sullivan:
the work that we were doing, once we were sharing back, they
Jamie Sullivan:
all wanted to be a part of
Bill Stites:
it.
Bill Stites:
Well, getting over that anxiety is huge.
Jamie Sullivan:
Yeah, exactly.
Peter Frank:
And Eric Hudson is always pretty good for making
Peter Frank:
you feel like a million bucks. Getting everybody pumped up.
Peter Frank:
Yeah,
Jamie Sullivan:
right. He does. Leaves us all pretty energized,
Jamie Sullivan:
and he really tries to pull out the people that are doing
Jamie Sullivan:
something that everyone needs to hear right? Because we are all
Jamie Sullivan:
at different times, working on different things. So this year,
Jamie Sullivan:
too, has been really good, and it didn't feel like we were
Jamie Sullivan:
doing anything again, because obviously this train is still
Jamie Sullivan:
moving. There's change constantly. So it's good, really
Jamie Sullivan:
good.
Peter Frank:
I wanted to ask about a couple more things
Peter Frank:
though, Jamie, something near and dear to my heart is, of
Peter Frank:
course, the T list ATLIS certification for technology
Peter Frank:
directors. And I gotta say, so you participated recently, and
Peter Frank:
you not only took the exam, but before that, you participated in
Peter Frank:
the T list prep program. And I was thinking to myself during
Peter Frank:
that as you were actively engaging, I thought in the
Peter Frank:
future, she is going to be facilitating these T list
Peter Frank:
programs. I wonder, because it seemed to really speak to you.
Peter Frank:
You are not just starting out. You're not in the middle of it
Peter Frank:
at this point, but you still felt like, Hey, before you wrap
Peter Frank:
this up, you wanted to earn the certification. So I'm curious,
Peter Frank:
from that perspective, what interested you about continuing
Peter Frank:
your professional development and doing things like preparing
Peter Frank:
for another exam and earning more credentials at this stage?
Jamie Sullivan:
I think most of us are lifelong learners, and I
Jamie Sullivan:
had four kids before I went for my doctorate, so I was like, You
Jamie Sullivan:
know what? I need to keep learning. That was the impetus
Jamie Sullivan:
then, and here I saw the program, and it covered such an
Jamie Sullivan:
array of areas across tech, you guys really spent a lot of time,
Jamie Sullivan:
obviously looking into each of these areas. Like Bill said, we
Jamie Sullivan:
are attached to every single thing in a school. And I wanted
Jamie Sullivan:
to make sure that I was still learning and I was still
Jamie Sullivan:
growing, and the PREP program really helped me sort of define
Jamie Sullivan:
those areas. And it's funny, because after I took it, I
Jamie Sullivan:
remember looking at the results, I wanted to know sort of where
Jamie Sullivan:
are the areas I need to strengthen? And it was
Jamie Sullivan:
definitely the area. Felt like I needed to strengthen. So it was
Jamie Sullivan:
good. It targeted exactly the thing I want to work on, which
Jamie Sullivan:
is data governance, and that was an area that I wasn't as strong
Jamie Sullivan:
in, and I felt like that is something I really need to work
Jamie Sullivan:
on. So I was not surprised, and I had plenty of prep, and I did
Jamie Sullivan:
fine, but I have to say, the PREP program for me was really
Jamie Sullivan:
helpful, just also hearing from other people and connecting on
Jamie Sullivan:
understanding the format and all of that. But I just wanted to
Jamie Sullivan:
continue learning and growing, and as I was moving into this
Jamie Sullivan:
tech role with the construction, all these things that I had not
Jamie Sullivan:
done in a very long time. You know, I was academic teching, so
Jamie Sullivan:
I didn't really,
Peter Frank:
I love
Jamie Sullivan:
it. Need to know all of these things, and yet I
Jamie Sullivan:
had experienced them previously, but it's been a long time. So I
Jamie Sullivan:
wanted to make sure that, you know, challenge myself, but also
Jamie Sullivan:
continue learning. So it was great. And you did a great job.
Jamie Sullivan:
Peter, everybody did, Bill, you were in there too.
Peter Frank:
Oh, thank you. Thank you. Yeah, but Bill didn't
Peter Frank:
have much to do with
Bill Stites:
it
Bill Stites:
at all. Oh, stop it.
Peter Frank:
It's funny because it's so not true.
Jamie Sullivan:
It's a great way to sort of better understand
Jamie Sullivan:
your strengths, your weaknesses, all of those things. I would
Jamie Sullivan:
recommend it to anybody.
Peter Frank:
We appreciate that. We're glad you got that out of
Peter Frank:
it. Yeah, the timing was really good. So I just wanted to ask
Peter Frank:
kind of in closing here, so your career has spanned so much of
Peter Frank:
the educational spectrum, from the early childhood to grad
Peter Frank:
students with all of that experience and perspective,
Peter Frank:
like, is there a fundamental truth about how humans learn
Peter Frank:
from tech that has remained constant. It doesn't matter
Peter Frank:
whether someone's for or whether they're an adult student, adult
Peter Frank:
learning, learning like fundamental truth about people
Peter Frank:
learning from technology that you've identified is, yep, it
Peter Frank:
doesn't matter their age. This is a truth about people in tech?
Jamie Sullivan:
Yeah, I started, actually, my career when I was
Jamie Sullivan:
getting my master's in educational computing. At the
Jamie Sullivan:
time, the director of the program, she had a nonprofit,
Jamie Sullivan:
what was a research project, but she was building to be a
Jamie Sullivan:
nonprofit. This was literally 1990 ish, and she was creating
Jamie Sullivan:
technology learning for older adults who missed technology
Jamie Sullivan:
altogether so they had not had personal computers. They had not
Jamie Sullivan:
had any of this. And while I was in this program to learn how to
Jamie Sullivan:
work in schools with technology, that was really long time ago,
Jamie Sullivan:
but she felt like there was this whole group of people that will
Jamie Sullivan:
never get that opportunity. So how can we help them? And she
Jamie Sullivan:
started this organization called senior net, and it was centers
Jamie Sullivan:
around the United States. They met online via, like, AOL, or, I
Jamie Sullivan:
can't even remember, it was long time ago,
Peter Frank:
sure.
Jamie Sullivan:
And they were so energized by just learning. And
Jamie Sullivan:
they also had been accountants, and they had all these careers,
Jamie Sullivan:
but none of this was connected to that. So that's where I
Jamie Sullivan:
started my career, and teaching older adults how to use
Jamie Sullivan:
computers. And now I am an older adult, and like you said, I've
Jamie Sullivan:
done preschool, teaching them logo and moving the turtle on
Jamie Sullivan:
the screen, and I've done students, and I've done
Jamie Sullivan:
teachers, and I've done online, and I've done all sorts of
Jamie Sullivan:
programs. And I have to say, anyone I work with, for the most
Jamie Sullivan:
part, really has an openness. They want to learn something.
Jamie Sullivan:
And it's not about the tech. The one thing I try to do is not
Jamie Sullivan:
make it about the tech. There are people that come in here and
Jamie Sullivan:
want to know how they can use Claude to do the thing. That's
Jamie Sullivan:
great, but for the most part, people want to do the thing. And
Jamie Sullivan:
whatever that thing is, as a tech leader, that's the thing
Jamie Sullivan:
I'm looking for. What is it that you want to learn? They want to
Jamie Sullivan:
learn something, and the tech is often just a vehicle for that.
Jamie Sullivan:
And I can talk with you guys, and I can talk with valiant Ty
Jamie Sullivan:
and all these people about the tech part of it, and that's
Jamie Sullivan:
really fun. But for most of the people I work with, they just
Jamie Sullivan:
want to do something. And how they get there, I try to give
Jamie Sullivan:
them the menu like these are the variety of choices that you have
Jamie Sullivan:
depending on what you want to do, and that talking through and
Jamie Sullivan:
walking through with people and helping them just understand
Jamie Sullivan:
what the options are to what they want to do, suss is out
Jamie Sullivan:
those things that you're trying to you know, the what's the
Jamie Sullivan:
right tool for the job? And that's where I feel like I fit
Jamie Sullivan:
best. I'm here to help translate what you're trying to do and
Jamie Sullivan:
make it easier for you and find a way. And sometimes a lot of
Jamie Sullivan:
it's more process than it is tool, but it just depends
Bill Stites:
to.
Bill Stites:
Words that kind of came up in my mind as you were explaining that
Bill Stites:
Everyone's curious, they just need to be made to feel capable.
Jamie Sullivan:
Yep.
Bill Stites:
And I think when you were talking about
Bill Stites:
particularly working with older adults, you know, it was funny
Bill Stites:
when I said I was away this weekend, my wife and my mother
Bill Stites:
and I went to the show, and we were talking about my father,
Bill Stites:
who was a former teacher, and he got out really before technology
Bill Stites:
got and he was always curious, but he never felt like he was
Bill Stites:
capable. And that to your point, Peter, what is that fundamental
Bill Stites:
truth? We're all curious. We all want to learn things. It's just
Bill Stites:
often we don't feel like we're capable enough to do it. If we
Bill Stites:
can empower people to feel capable, like you're saying
Bill Stites:
you've done and done masterfully. I think that's the
Bill Stites:
biggest thing that we just need to keep in mind.
Jamie Sullivan:
Yeah, it's not about the tech.
Peter Frank:
Yeah, I love that. I wrote that down. It's not
Peter Frank:
about the tech. It's about what you're trying to accomplish with
Peter Frank:
the tech.
Bill Stites:
Yeah,
Peter Frank:
make it about that. Jamie Sullivan, thank you so
Peter Frank:
much for sharing everything that you have to share with
Bill Stites:
us.
Jamie Sullivan:
This has been really fun. Thanks, guys
Peter Frank:
and Bill. We miss Hiram.
Jamie Sullivan:
Yeah,
Bill Stites:
no, we don't.
Peter Frank:
Oh, wow,
Bill Stites:
no,
Peter Frank:
man, all right.
Bill Stites:
Do you see how smoothly this went, how easy it
Bill Stites:
went. We had a really good dialog back and forth. It was
Bill Stites:
fabulous.
Peter Frank:
Well, I missed Hiram. So Hiram. I missed you. I
Peter Frank:
suspect Bill did too. I
Bill Stites:
just
Bill Stites:
spent the weekend with Hiram. So I had a ton of time. Hiram was
Bill Stites:
at my house, Thursday, Friday, Saturday. I got enough Hiram. I
Bill Stites:
could use this as like my Hiram detox time.
Peter Frank:
Okay, sure. Thank you all so much. Thank you both.
Peter Frank:
This has been talking technology with ATLIS, produced by the
Peter Frank:
Association of technology leaders in independent schools.
Peter Frank:
For more information about Atlas and Atlas membership, please
Peter Frank:
visit the atlas.org if you enjoyed this discussion, please
Peter Frank:
subscribe, leave a review and share this podcast with your
Peter Frank:
colleagues in the independent school community. Thank you for
Peter Frank:
listening. You
Bill Stites:
Hi.
